If you don't know what it is, Mike wrote an article about it a couple of years ago on Animalball.  One of the only Steve Jackson games I've ever played.

The deal was that it was overly simplified combat.  I understand that some people actually used it for roleplaying, but for about 18 months we played it simply for pick-up games of gladiator combat.  You pick an ogre, I'll pick a fighter and we'll duke it out in the middle of the gladiator ring.  A typical battle took twenty to thirty minutes.  We'd play at least four or five times a week-- we played it like we'd play backgammon.

I do indeed. We talked a bit about it on a thread started by DevP a while back, and if I have time I'd like to run some TFT  FTF (heh) with some people around here.

I'm not sure if Mike mentions it, but the combination Melee/Wizard was turned into a full-scale RPG with the addition of In the Labyrinth, which had a skill system and other necessary elements. The entire system was presented in somewhat scaled-down form in a game called Dragons of Underearth. And now Dark City Games has begun releasing rules and modules based on an updated version of the core mechanics.

I also see that you guys have a d20 game that's inspired by Melee.

Overly simplified combat, though? Actually, between the use of maps and facing, the tradeoff between strength, dexterity, and armor, and relative benefits of pole weapons vs. swords & axes vs. missile weapons, it was moderately deep tactically. Throw in the fact that magic was very well balanced against melee, and that offensive and defensive magic were well balanced against each other, and it really worked well as an arena combat game. And it sang when combined with the solo modules like Death Test, Security Station, and Grail Quest.

This was done by a company called metagaming who gave steve jackson his big break. Oh well, everyone makes mistakes.....

I have some old metagames I picked up at various cons and sales, they had some great stuff.

"The air eaters strike back" was a terribly typo ridden game, but had some excellent ideas and scale. It had a map of the solar system that you had to rotate the counters on for each 3 month turn, and used the planet jupiter for a turn counter(!!!)

Not quite, Nox. SJ regardless of whatever he's done to offend you, designed both TFT and one of Metagaming's biggest hits, Ogre. I do not know the details of his split with Howard Thompson, owner of MG; there was obviously some bad blood, but somehow SJ ended up owning Ogre and its sequel GEV, which he published under his new mark, Steve Jackson Games, while MG retained ownership of TFT. SJ later offered to purchase TFT from Thompson after MG had ceased operations, but Thompson (probably still angry with Jackson) asked for more than Jackson was willing to pay. Jackson then proceeded to develop GURPS, which owes its design concepts both to TFT and to Champions, with some of the Champions ideas on Disadvantages also having popped up in a TFT variant published The Space Gamer #51 in 1982. (TSG had also originally been published by MG and was somehow acquired by SJ when he left the company.)

Quote from: Elliot WilenNot quite, Nox. SJ regardless of whatever he's done to offend you, designed both TFT and one of Metagaming's biggest hits, Ogre. I do not know the details of his split with Howard Thompson, owner of MG; there was obviously some bad blood, but somehow SJ ended up owning Ogre and its sequel GEV, which he published under his new mark, Steve Jackson Games, while MG retained ownership of TFT. SJ later offered to purchase TFT from Thompson after MG had ceased operations, but Thompson (probably still angry with Jackson) asked for more than Jackson was willing to pay. Jackson then proceeded to develop GURPS, which owes its design concepts both to TFT and to Champions, with some of the Champions ideas on Disadvantages also having popped up in a TFT variant published The Space Gamer #51 in 1982. (TSG had also originally been published by MG and was somehow acquired by SJ when he left the company.)

I'd heard sj sued them and put metagaming under. After over 20 years I guess some people remember things differently. Anyway, there seems to be bad blood wherever jackons goes. Like with the vampire masquerade/gurps deal that fell thru.

EDIT: Wikipedia claimed jackson retained the rights to ogre and some other games. It didn't say if he sued to get them tho.

Metagaming went under because Thompson was a bad businessman. Jackson got out because he was smart enough to see what was going on.

SJG and White Wolf? One Weick brother thought it would be neat and up V:TM sales. The other decided it was cutting into V:TM sales. The latter gained control of the White Wolf board and canceled the agreement with SJG.

Noxious, take your meds and chill.

Quote from: Elliot WilenI also see that you guys have a d20 game that's inspired by Melee.

Out in the next couple of days, I'll post up a pimp thread when we do it.  Like everything else, it'll be free.

QuoteOverly simplified combat, though? Actually, between the use of maps and facing, the tradeoff between strength, dexterity, and armor, and relative benefits of pole weapons vs. swords & axes vs. missile weapons, it was moderately deep tactically.

I don't think deep tactics and simple combat are necessarily mutually exclusive.  The great part about playing the game is that once you knew the rules-- you knew them.  No charts, acs and that shit.  It was easy and intuitive.

Nox, since I was playing the games 20 and 30 years ago, I'm in a position to remember, though I may have forgotten something.

Apparently there was some legal wrangle between Jackson and MG connected to Jackson's obtaining the Ogre rights, but I don't know if that really contributed to Metagaming's demise other than removing one of their sources of profit. Greg Costikyan's account of Thompson's business practices suggests that he wasn't very careful about spelling out the distribution of obligations and rights with his designers, so it's very difficult to speculate who was in the right between him and Jackson. If you can provide evidence about the case, or about its effect on Metagaming's operations, I would certainly be interested.

Quote from: Animalball BraskyI don't think deep tactics and simple combat are necessarily mutually exclusive.  The great part about playing the game is that once you knew the rules-- you knew them.  No charts, acs and that shit.  It was easy and intuitive.

Oh, yes, absolutely. I remember running a scenario in college using the character creation/weapons/armor/combat rules completely from memory (though not the magic or skills). It was a lot of fun.

This gets into a bit of a rant I have about modern RPGers--I get an impression that a lot of them have absurdly low standards when it comes to clarity and functionality of rules. TFT works, period.

Quote from: Elliot WilenNox, since I was playing the games 20 and 30 years ago, I'm in a position to remember, though I may have forgotten something.

Apparently there was some legal wrangle between Jackson and MG connected to Jackson's obtaining the Ogre rights, but I don't know if that really contributed to Metagaming's demise other than removing one of their sources of profit. Greg Costikyan's account of Thompson's business practices suggests that he wasn't very careful about spelling out the distribution of obligations and rights with his designers, so it's very difficult to speculate who was in the right between him and Jackson. If you can provide evidence about the case, or about its effect on Metagaming's operations, I would certainly be interested.

Sounds to me like this Thompson was more interested in making games, and maybe trusted people he saw as fellow gamers, so he didn't spend vast amounts of time and effort on ironcladding and boilerplating contracts.

This was Ok when dealing with most people, but sooner or later someone comes along and hoses you because you were naive enough to trust him.

Quote from: Dominus NoxSounds to me like this Thompson was more interested in making games, and maybe trusted people he saw as fellow gamers, so he didn't spend vast amounts of time and effort on ironcladding and boilerplating contracts.

That's called being a bad businessman.

QuoteThis was Ok when dealing with most people, but sooner or later someone comes along and hoses you because you were naive enough to trust him.

You know nothing about contracts.

Defending Howard Thompson is less ethically reprehensible than defending the Klan, but no less silly.

Oh, and I think that Melee and Wizard were great fun, and that Advanced Melee/Advanced Wizard/The Fantasy Trip: In the Labyrinth is one of the best traditional fantasy RPGs ever published. Love all that stuff.

Quote from: CalithenaDefending Howard Thompson is less ethically reprehensible than defending the Klan, but no less silly.

Oh, and I think that Melee and Wizard were great fun, and that Advanced Melee/Advanced Wizard/The Fantasy Trip: In the Labyrinth is one of the best traditional fantasy RPGs ever published. Love all that stuff.

OH my fucking god, does every idiot have to drag my sarcastic attacks on those who deal with all dissent by chanting "RACIST!!!" into everything?!?!

HT may have just been someone who loved making games for their own sake and the sake of other gamers. So he wasn't a fucking "lawyer" or a "businesman". He was a gamer, and I guess he got backstabbed by someone more interested in business than making games.

it's just a pity that whatever was done to him drove him out of gaming alltogether, who was one of the real pioneers, doing stuff way back in 1977.

Quote from: Dominus NoxOH my fucking god, does every idiot have to drag my sarcastic attacks on those who deal with all dissent by chanting "RACIST!!!" into everything?!?!

On occasion, yes. And God called to mention that He'd appreciate it if you'd leave His name out of this business.

!i!

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaOn occasion, yes. And God called to mention that He'd appreciate it if you'd leave His name out of this business.

!i!

The flying spaghetti monster told me you're lying and he didn't call you.