I see all this talk here about 4E, Old School, and Pathfinder, but how about Hackmaster? Anyone? Bueller?
I never played Hackmaster.
I don't know how it runs, and I'd be curious to know more about it. :)
I just got the new basic edition today. That's why I asked. I find the latest editions of D&D to be too much work and similar games like Castles & Crusaders too bland. I just started reading it, but it seems to take the best from OD&D along with the added skills, and lots of little random trivial bits. It's also percentage-based even though the attributes work like D&D. There's also some funny stuff in there, like illustrations and descriptions for proper dice rolling techniques.
The character sheet makes the game look a little daunting, but I'm sure it's not bad once you fill everything out. If I had to say one bad thing about it so far, it would be that the cover does not inspire me to buy it. I only picked it up because I already knew about Hackmaster previously.
I probably won't get a chance to play it, but it looks like old school fun.
Sounds great to me. I'd try the game, if given the occasion. :)
I just happened upon the quick start rules on Kenzer's web site. This is the same from the beginning of the book:
http://www.kenzerco.com/free_files/HMb/HMb_quickstart_rules.pdf
Cool! Thanks for the link!
Sounds nice!
How is the distribution on this? I mean, last time, the local FLGS got the Hackmaster, all the books and so on but now...
And yes, I know the economy blows, rpgs in the decline etc. etc. but it'd be neato for the Kenzer group to swoop in and snatch a chunk of territory from WOTC et al.
I don't know about distribution. What's nice is that it's only $19.99 MSRP. How many $20 games are there anymore?
Quote from: brettmb;332380I don't know about distribution. What's nice is that it's only $19.99 MSRP. How many $20 games are there anymore?
That's only the price for the Basic ruleset, though. Is the Advanced ruleset out yet?
I don't think it's out yet. You only need the Basic set to play, but it only has 4 classes and 4 races.
Quote from: Danger;332376Sounds nice!
How is the distribution on this? I mean, last time, the local FLGS got the Hackmaster, all the books and so on but now...
And yes, I know the economy blows, rpgs in the decline etc. etc. but it'd be neato for the Kenzer group to swoop in and snatch a chunk of territory from WOTC et al.
I bought mine at the LGS.
The first printing supposedly is going to sell out in a week or two, and it won't be reprinted till December. So it sounds as though it is doing well (probably a print run of a 1000 or 1500 copies, likely the lower number.)
But damn, good luck finding a group that's playing it, or who doesn't prefer something more vanilla, as Brett put it.
I went to buy it last week, but the clerk said, "It's a serious game. It's not meant to be played." It was one of those game store experiences where the cerk tries to make you feel like an asshole for asking for a product.
Quote from: Christian;332418I went to buy it last week, but the clerk said, "It's a serious game. It's not meant to be played." It was one of those game store experiences where the cerk tries to make you feel like an asshole for asking for a product.
Are you serious? It's more playable than 4E.
Quote from: Christian;332418I went to buy it last week, but the clerk said, "It's a serious game. It's not meant to be played." It was one of those game store experiences where the cerk tries to make you feel like an asshole for asking for a product.
What a fucking idiot.
Quote from: Christian;332418I went to buy it last week, but the clerk said, "It's a serious game. It's not meant to be played." It was one of those game store experiences where the cerk tries to make you feel like an asshole for asking for a product.
Shit like this is why I always figure that if I were to open a comic/game shop, I could make it work. Since I understand retail and customer service enough to offer advice when asked and to leave judgement out of it.
I'm waiting for Hackmaster Advanced.
Let me apologize for a typo in my post. The clerk said, "It's not a serious game. It's not meant to be played." I left out the "not" in my post.
Despite trying to discourage me, he tried to help me find it, but they didn't have it. Or they had it and couldn't find it. Whatever.
I was so excited to read the game after hearing a favorable review on the Wapcaplets podcast. Instead, I left bummed. It's a fine store all in all, but I don't think it's a good idea to dissuade people from giving you money.
Quote from: Christian;332430Let me apologize for a typo in my post. The clerk said, "It's not a serious game. It's not meant to be played." I left out the "not" in my post.
Despite trying to discourage me, he tried to help me find it, but they didn't have it. Or they had it and couldn't find it. Whatever.
I was so excited to read the game after hearing a favorable review on the Wapcaplets podcast. Instead, I left bummed. It's a fine store all in all, but I don't think it's a good idea to dissuade people from giving you money.
It (BHM) also is having supply issues... it sold faster than expected.
I'll happily sell someone my HM4 stuff...
I'm playing it allegedly tomorrow. Again. So far the system hasn't been pushed, just brushed against. Mostly PC creation was problematic, but we've yet to see the rules playout.
Quote from: brettmb;332384I don't think it's out yet. You only need the Basic set to play, but it only has 4 classes and 4 races.
And 5 levels. That's not bad.
RPGPundit
I had alot of fun with Paranoia so I'm keen to try Hackmaster.
Quote from: Malleus Arianorum;332454I had alot of fun with Paranoia so I'm keen to try Hackmaster.
HackMaster really isn't much like Paranoia, unless you're referring to the humorous foundation upon which both are based. But even given that, the new HackMaster Basic has dispensed with pretty much every satirical and/or parodical element that made the previous edition of HackMaster unique.
Sure, the Knights of the Dinner Table show up in an extended example of play (though the actual game play itself isn't humorous in nature), and there is the dice rolling etiquette article which comes from the previous edition. They also did away with a lot of the "Garyspeak," which either used the actual text from the original 1e books (particularly the DMG) goosed up a few notches in its authoritarian tone, or which emulated that style. There are echoes of it in there still, but it's pretty anemic, comparatively speaking.
brettmb said it was more playable than 4e, and at first I thought he meant 4e D&D (I've been reading too many 4e D&D threads lately), but then it occurred to me he probably actually meant 4e HackMaster, which was the previous (and only prior) edition of the game. In that regard, I'd agree. HM5e is more easily playable than HM4e. HM4e was a mix of AD&D 1e and 2e, with stuff unique to HackMaster, like the Honor system, critical hits (with a d10,000 hit location chart), some classes (the Knight Errant leaps to mind), races (the Gnome Titan, for example), and odder stuff like protegees. It all could collapse under its own weight.
Given all that, I still miss a lot of that stuff.
Actually, I meant both D&D and HM 4e. It's much easier to get started and doesn't get weighed down by itself - at least, in my opinion.
I've played HM Basic in a couple lengthy sessions that gave the system a good workout.
PC creation isn't anything special, but its Basic. Standard concepts. They worked very hard to make the thief an interesting PC with a lot of combat tweaks to liven up the role-it worked fairly well.
Combat is the same old d20 drek. They buffed it up with a couple new quirks, but its still the same dull roll d20 to hit, roll dice # for damage, attrit your foe before getting attritted yourself. They added a threshold of pain which means you effectively can take 15% of your hit points before being overcome with pain (and helpless), so it doesn't drag on as badly as most d20 material.
The combat is handled via the count-up method used in Aces & Eights, and is really very good-I'm going to use it in my next campaign. It really gives the players a sense of impending action, although a lot of that is lost due to the damage model.
The writing is poor; we had real problems sorting out some combat questions; mainly it was due to very bad organization.
The skills system was pretty good.
In all, ok stuff, but very little new, and in need of editing.
Quote from: ColonelHardisson;332560HackMaster really isn't much like Paranoia, unless you're referring to the humorous foundation upon which both are based. But even given that, the new HackMaster Basic has dispensed with pretty much every satirical and/or parodical element that made the previous edition of HackMaster unique.
I was referring to the humorous foundation but then again I was unaware of the big changes in 5e. Thanks for the info, I'm not in the market currently but this is one to watch.
Quote from: Malleus Arianorum;332657I was referring to the humorous foundation but then again I was unaware of the big changes in 5e. Thanks for the info, I'm not in the market currently but this is one to watch.
I know I came off as negative in my comments above, but to be honest, I think it's worth giving a try. Despite my feeling that HMb is lackluster - mostly in presentation, and because it's "basic" - I think it's a worthwhile game, and my immediate reaction upon reading it was a desire to run it. So it's got that going for it. Plus, it made me look forward to HackMaster Advanced.
Not sure if Mark mentioned it here but we're on our last box of HMB books and expect to sell out this week. A nice problem to have.
Unfortunately we the 2nd printing won't be available til around xmas. We have several new products in the works and like the gang print to bring down cost.
Just thought I'd give folks a heads up.
Quote from: aramis;332435It (BHM) also is having supply issues... it sold faster than expected.
True enough. We expected to have books in stock til at least when AHM came out. I actually made a special trip to the warehouse saturday to grab a copy of HMB for myself. I gave away my personal copy last week at the game.
Quote from: islan;332382That's only the price for the Basic ruleset, though. Is the Advanced ruleset out yet?
Advanced ruleset is slated for next summer (although that's not the 'official' release date that's what we're pushing for in house).
We will be presenting AHM material in KODT each month. Last few issues have already presented some AHM material in fact.
Quote from: FASERIP;332393So it sounds as though it is doing well (probably a print run of a 1000 or 1500 copies, likely the lower number.)
Much much higher than that actually.
Seriously, a 1000 book print run and we would have sold out during its first week of release.
Just our online pre-release sales would have done that I think.
Quote from: RPGPundit;332445And 5 levels. That's not bad.
RPGPundit
Despite the presence of class and levels it is a skill based system. So you have some options to fiddle with while waiting for the Advanced version to come out.
If Jolly or some of the other Kenzer guys are still looking in on this thread, I'm wondering if we'll see a 5th edition version of the GM Shield? The original one I still consider one of the best RPG peripherals ever, and the best GM screen of all time.
I browsed Hackmaster 4e and it didn't click for me, didn't like the humor style and it was a big mess of rules. so you see where I'm coming from.
Only a few minor wtf moments in the rules and a few hard to grock rule wordings. It's a very solid set of rules. As someone said, it's really more of a skill based game than a simple level game. The magic system is pt based but with added flexibility. Classes are good. It's rather low magic, which I like. Compared to D&D, hit points start higher and have a lower slope.
It's a tad too persnickity for me (I've been in a rules light mindset the last couple of years) but it's a very solid game and well worth the bargain price.
Quote from: JollyRB;332696Not sure if Mark mentioned it here but we're on our last box of HMB books and expect to sell out this week. A nice problem to have.
Unfortunately we the 2nd printing won't be available til around xmas. We have several new products in the works and like the gang print to bring down cost.
Just thought I'd give folks a heads up.
Crap! :mad:
Oh well, I doubt that I'd have a chance to try it out before X-mas anyway...
I didn't like the original (4e) Hackmaster at all. It's style just did not gel with me. On a whim I picked up the latest Hackmaster Basic and really liked it. It's a completely different animal. Can't wait for Advanced Hackmaster to come out!
Quote from: GoOrange;333329On a whim I picked up the latest Hackmaster Basic and really liked it.
At $20, it is in the range for impusle buys. I was on vacation in July and saw and thought "What the hell." I was also looking at Trail of Cthulhu but it was twice the price so I passed.
Quote from: ColonelHardisson;333181If Jolly or some of the other Kenzer guys are still looking in on this thread, I'm wondering if we'll see a 5th edition version of the GM Shield? The original one I still consider one of the best RPG peripherals ever, and the best GM screen of all time.
We'll definitely be doing a shield. But it will probably be put off til AHM comes out to incorporate more of the new rules/additions.
Quote from: JollyRB;333519We'll definitely be doing a shield. But it will probably be put off til AHM comes out to incorporate more of the new rules/additions.
Are you going to release Hacklopedias for this edition?
Yes, the monster book be the Hacklopedia of Beasts. It'll be one hardcover with monsters A-Z, though, not a set of 8 volumes like HM4th. Future HOBs will probably be labeled HOB 2, HOB 3, etc., much like how D&D does their Monster Manuals.
Quote from: JollyRB;332701Much much higher than that actually.
Seriously, a 1000 book print run and we would have sold out during its first week of release.
Just our online pre-release sales would have done that I think.
I always hear very low guesstimates for RPG print-runs. Glad to hear it was higher.
Will Advanced be multi-volume? Does it entirely replace or only supplement Basic?
Quote from: Mark Plemmons;333588Yes, the monster book be the Hacklopedia of Beasts. It'll be one hardcover with monsters A-Z, though, not a set of 8 volumes like HM4th. Future HOBs will probably be labeled HOB 2, HOB 3, etc., much like how D&D does their Monster Manuals.
Mark, let me ask you another question. Clearly, you have the resources to produce a full color book, since you did that with Aces & Eights. Yet Hackmaster is sort of poised against D&D, which is full color, but you didn't go that route. Do you plan on doing the Advanced book as full-color, or are you simply aiming for a lower price point as opposed to flash?
We do want to make some more cool-looking books that'll make you drool as much or more than Aces & Eights did. Of course, some products are better served as b&w and/or paperback (such as HackMaster Basic). There are a lot of variables to consider.
The Hacklopedia is currently planned to be color. Not sure about color for the Player's or GM's books yet. All three are planned to be hardcover, though.
We'll probably be making more detailed announcements about these in the near future... ;)
weird double post
Quote from: JollyRB;333519We'll definitely be doing a shield. But it will probably be put off til AHM comes out to incorporate more of the new rules/additions.
Will this shield be anything like the HM4e shield? Or will it be more traditional?
Quote from: ColonelHardisson;333763Will this shield be anything like the HM4e shield? Or will it be more traditional?
Oh, please let it be as cool as the HM4e shield. That thing rocked on toast. Even had the 'pizza matrix'. What more could you want?
Quote from: ColonelHardisson;333763Will this shield be anything like the HM4e shield? Or will it be more traditional?
We will certainly try to deliver. ;)
With no need for to-hit/ac tables we'll definitely be thinking outside the box to come up with some new ideas for the shield.
Quote from: brettmb;333621Mark, let me ask you another question. Clearly, you have the resources to produce a full color book, since you did that with Aces & Eights. Yet Hackmaster is sort of poised against D&D, which is full color, but you didn't go that route. Do you plan on doing the Advanced book as full-color, or are you simply aiming for a lower price point as opposed to flash?
Our goal with HackMaster Basic was do to something affordable that more people would be likely to pick up. Seems to have worked.
Advanced HackMaster will be a different animal however.
We'll be out to make an impression. Something on the level of the Aces and Eights premium/leathered edition only ramped up.
We've been tossing around some ideas in house on the new books. If we can pull off the technical aspects they should be pretty amazing. So yes -- plenty of flash with AHM. Coupled with the best content we can muster of course.
Quote from: JollyRB;333869Our goal with HackMaster Basic was do to something affordable that more people would be likely to pick up. Seems to have worked.
I applaud that, because I'd much rather have Hackmaster Basic than the D&D Starter Set even though both are the same price and the latter is full-color.
That's my goal with PDFs (and print to order by extension). Make them affordable. Of course a deluxe version is always good too ;)
For any basic game, price should definitely be a major concern.
RPGPundit
So I picked up the book yesterday. It' pretty cool. Better than I though. The combat rules seem more interesting than AD&D, and yet they don't go the route of later editions and ad shit that normal human beings can't do. Like phase shift and walk through walls just because you take a feat/power in it. That kinda bullshit. Just giving it a quick read, I like the mage spell casting system a lot. My only concern would be the limited number of spells a mage can actually know. Even the old AD&D game let you "know" far more than the numbers in HBM. Assuming the advanced version will have more spells, hat god is a list of 40 1st level spells when you can only know 4 of them? Why kill other wizards and loot their spellbooks when you are already full of the spells per level you can know?
I haven't gotten into the rest of it in too much depth, maybe there is more to it than my before bed reading last night that I am missing. Just a preliminary review...
I just got a copy of HackMaster Basic yesterday. I haven't been able to sit down and read through it all yet, but from just initially thumbing through it I really like what I see. Would have preferred an Elmore cover to the Otus though. :)
I also can see that I'm probably going to want to run out and pick up Advanced HackMaster as soon as it gets released. As long as the Advanced books are reasonably priced and not diamond encrusted or something, I can see this becoming my new fantasy game of choice.
Quote from: KillingMachine;337459I just got a copy of HackMaster Basic yesterday. I haven't been able to sit down and read through it all yet, but from just initially thumbing through it I really like what I see. Would have preferred an Elmore cover to the Otus though. :)
I also can see that I'm probably going to want to run out and pick up Advanced HackMaster as soon as it gets released. As long as the Advanced books are reasonably priced and not diamond encrusted or something, I can see this becoming my new fantasy game of choice.
If I could get my group to adopt it, I would gladly make this the game we play every week rather than our bastardized retro'd 3.0 game.
Quote from: Joethelawyer;337462If I could get my group to adopt it, I would gladly make this the game we play every week rather than our bastardized retro'd 3.0 game.
Why not bring your HackMaster Basic book to a game and show them some of the stuff it can offer? If you guys are trying to retro up your current game anyway, it might appeal to them.
My recommendation, make up some pregens, base them off of your Player's likes/dislikes, i.e. make up characters that you know that they'd be interested in. Then run a "Demo" for them. If there's a local Convention or Game Day or just a store that will allow you to run a Demo, then get at least a couple of people from your group to play it. Once you get a couple interested they'll help you spread the word. Or just ask your group to "take a break" for one night and run the Demo there. Go download "White Palette/Ivory Thorns" from K&Co and run it. Give them a taste without having to read the rules or make up characters.
I really like HMB, but I'm currently playing in a 3.5 D&D game that is killing my want of any game that takes a lot of time to do combats. I still think HMB is better than d20, but I'm not sure I want a game that's so fiddly.
I have to say that HMB is pretty much the only new game that I'm very curious to check out sometime soon (I'm also interested in checking out 'Dragon Warriors,' but that's not really a new game).
Quote from: KillingMachine;337459Would have preferred an Elmore cover to the Otus though. :)
UGH! NONONONONO! Thank kind Cthulhu it's Otus!
I can't wait for Advanced Hackmaster to add even more options to the mix.
Quote from: Akrasia;337683UGH! NONONONONO! Thank kind Cthulhu it's Otus!
Yup. I have to admit that had it been an Elmore cover, I'd have been much less inclined to buy it. I'd most likely have given it a pass and waited to see what Advanced looks like.
Quote from: ColonelHardisson;337726Yup. I have to admit that had it been an Elmore cover, I'd have been much less inclined to buy it. I'd most likely have given it a pass and waited to see what Advanced looks like.
Wow, you'd really judge a book by its cover? I'm not that crazy about the Otus cover, but it in no way made me think "I don't particularly like the cover, so the book must suck". With any RPG book there is bound to be art you'll love and art you won't be as excited about. If some of the stuff I'm not digging as much happens to be on the cover, that isn't a deal breaker.
Speaking of the artwork though, I do really like a lot of the interior art in HMB.
One thing that's kinda bugging me about the game though. It's sort of a nitpick, but why did they decide to make the main currency silver pieces and then call the magic points "spell points" so that they are both abbreviated as "SP"? Not a huge deal, but it would have been nice to not have two commonly used things abbreviated with the same letters.
Quote from: Akrasia;337683I have to say that HMB is pretty much the only new game that I'm very curious to check out sometime soon (I'm also interested in checking out 'Dragon Warriors,' but that's not really a new game).
Dragon warriors in a nutshell:
Roll to hit, roll to penetrate the armor. No damage roll. Low HP. Lots of 1st-gen style special-case rules.
Current edition is a consolidation reprint, rather than a truly new edition.
PDF is a good read, but as typical of Mongoose, rather high on the relative price.
Quote from: aramis;337842Dragon warriors in a nutshell:
(...)
PDF is a good read, but as typical of Mongoose, rather high on the relative price.
Dragon Warriors is not by Mongoose! It's published by Magnum Opus Press (http://www.magnumopuspress.com/) and only distributed by Mongosse as part of their Flaming Cobra (http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/home/series.php?qsSeries=43) imprint.
The reprint is good, but it lacks the 80s-style charm of the old Corgi paperbacks. It's
too good, too polished.
Quote from: KillingMachine;337752Wow, you'd really judge a book by its cover? I'm not that crazy about the Otus cover, but it in no way made me think "I don't particularly like the cover, so the book must suck". With any RPG book there is bound to be art you'll love and art you won't be as excited about. If some of the stuff I'm not digging as much happens to be on the cover, that isn't a deal breaker.
For a book that is the basic version of a new edition of a game I already have and for which an advanced version is in the offing? Fuck yeah. I have almost all of the HM 4e line, I know HM Advanced is coming. In a case like that, I don't see why a cover
wouldn't be a deciding factor. What else is there about it that would draw me in? I have no real interest in a "basic" game. Hell, I already have plenty of basic games, including the Holmes and Mentzer editions of D&D, as well as Castles & Crusades and a number of the various retro-clones available as pdfs. You'd better believe a cover becomes an important factor.
Plus, I dislike Elmore's art, and I REALLY like Otus's.
Besides all that, how shocked could you really be that people buy or don't buy books for covers? I've bought books solely because Frazetta did the covers, and I know I'm not alone.
Quote from: ColonelHardisson;337995Besides all that, how shocked could you really be that people buy or don't buy books for covers? I've bought books solely because Frazetta did the covers, and I know I'm not alone.
Unless you plan to frame it or something, it just seems odd to me that a cover can become the
deciding factor in purchasing a
game. Each to his own I guess, but I don't think there is an artist that I find offputting enough to make me decide against a book with content that I otherwise wanted. Also, I could never see myself buying a game just because I loved the cover. Maybe I'm just not as attached to the art as some other people are. But hey, what do I know? I like Elmore's stuff. :)
The cover was enough for me to dismiss it at first glance, but not enough to make me not want to buy it. I don't have a problem with Otus, but this cover just looks stupid. The original on which it is based is more fantasy-like. This one is a little too jokey for my taste.
Quote from: brettmb;338048The cover was enough for me to dismiss it at first glance, but not enough to make me not want to buy it. I don't have a problem with Otus, but this cover just looks stupid. The original on which it is based is more fantasy-like. This one is a little too jokey for my taste.
Yeah, HackMaster Basic's cover sucks. Otus is pretty good, but this isn't good Otus.
Fortunately the game inside the covers is pretty cool.
I disagree with the criticisms of the cover. It looks like classic Otus to me, including the shadowy fungoid dude in the background.
And I love Otus!
I would have preferred Bros. Fraim cover art.
I like the cover to the new Hackmaster. Even though I tend to prefer Elmore's artwork, I still think Otus's art style is more appropriate for this particular game. I'm not sure why that is, but that's just my feeling.
I love the new cover. Reminds me of the old basic set I grew up on and invokes a certain feeling of nostalgia. The game itself does the same thing. It's a lot like playing the old version, but better. Same feel, much more interesting mechanics.