TheRPGSite

Maybe I'm getting old. Or just don't have time for rpgs that use proprietary dice. I tried to recently read Edge of the Empire and their dice mechanic I just don't get it. I look at the older D6 Star Wars and it seems so much simpler. Fire at a Storm Trooper roll your total of D6s take into account any Wild Die or other modifiers vs difficulty number. That being said the D6 has it flaws.  It may also be why I'm not going to buy the new Star Trek rpg. to me at least it just seems like FFG is trying to hard to be different which sometimes can be a good thing. Yet also complicating matters at the same time.

I don't mind the dice because those serve to provide a greater range of outcomes than traditional dice. What I don't like are "talent trees" that make you take a bunch of shit you don't want (and may never use) in order to get to the things that you are interested in having. It's particularly amusing that the "Dedication" talent always requires you to bore down to the bottom of a tree and pick up at least four other talents along the way to it. So much for being dedicated to improving in that one specific way as the road to Dedication is paved with assorted XP-sink distractions.

I ran the demo box for Edge of the Empire a while ago and it went well enough.  People were very engaged with the dice and suggested possible implications for the results, which was pretty fun.  Sadly, my group only has time for so many games in their life and we are largely full up, otherwise I'm sure we would be more into it.  I can see where people wouldn't want to deal with them, but in actual play they were fun and engaging.

I ran it for a few sessions and found that the dice were fundamentally flawed. In a normal game, I could easily have fixed it but I'd need to replace certain dice to really address the issue. Basically, since both Threat/Advantage and Success/Failure scale with the number of dice, resolutions tend to either succeed with tons of Advantage or fail with tons of Threat. Success with Threat or Failure with Advantage doesn't happen as often as it needs to which removes most of the point of having two axis of results.

Quote from: HappyDaze;969169It's particularly amusing that the "Dedication" talent always requires you to bore down to the bottom of a tree and pick up at least four other talents along the way to it. So much for being dedicated to improving in that one specific way as the road to Dedication is paved with assorted XP-sink distractions.

Agreed. I see Dedication as a sort of pseudo leveling mechanic. I don't have a problem with Talents per se, but the game does start off much better than it ends up.

There have been at least one or two other threads about FFG's Star Wars games here. In short, some people love them and some think they suck. I tried the EotE beginner scenario for my group, and it didn't go over well at all with some of them. The dice mechanic was a huge obstacle, and I have to agree with those that see it as a problem. It may work, but you can get outcomes other than pass/fail with traditional dice (see games like The One Ring, Icons, or even golden oldies like Ghostbusters). I know that using a system relying on normal dice would have made the game far more attractive to groups like mine, even with all those Talent trees.

But it is what it is. I have plenty of options for Star Wars that I like more, and I know there are a lot of people who do like what FFG did with the official game.

This game is massively over written.

It's a convoluted, borderline impenetrable, Rube Goldberg machine of a game seemingly designed by and for Dustin Hoffman's character from Rain Man.  

FFG had the Holy Grail of RPG licences and they flushed it down the fucking toilet. What a waste.

White Star looks to do Star Wars great... :D  ...probably not as great as 1e WEG d6 Star Wars though!

Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;969223It's a convoluted, borderline impenetrable, Rube Goldberg machine of a game seemingly designed by and for Dustin Hoffman's character from Rain Man.  

FFG had the Holy Grail of RPG licences and they flushed it down the fucking toilet. What a waste.

Yeap, flushed it so bad that they're making three separate lines that selling really well.  Complete and total loss...

Quote from: sureshot;969159Maybe I'm getting old. Or just don't have time for rpgs that use proprietary dice. I tried to recently read Edge of the Empire and their dice mechanic I just don't get it. I look at the older D6 Star Wars and it seems so much simpler. Fire at a Storm Trooper roll your total of D6s take into account any Wild Die or other modifiers vs difficulty number. That being said the D6 has it flaws.  It may also be why I'm not going to buy the new Star Trek rpg. to me at least it just seems like FFG is trying to hard to be different which sometimes can be a good thing. Yet also complicating matters at the same time.

The fuck is wrong with you? How the hell have you not enjoyed this game? It's one of the only decent RPGs that is out at the moment. I mean, EOTE is really fucking solid. Don't really give a shit about the other two because nobody wants to play fucking bontha spy or nutcase with a lightsaber (especially since we've got Jedi Academy for that!).

I see the point on the dice being weird. Unlike Burning Wheel's crap and FATE's "we don't like numbers" policy though, the game's rocking with a good mechanic that actually channels the spirit of the films (and the EU!). Specifically, doesn't matter if shit goes bad, shit goes left or shit actually goes well, something ALWAYS happens and it happens with style too.

I think the BIGGEST problem with the game -- not just the dice mechanics but the leveling system that powers them dice -- is that they've pretty much wholesale taken the shitty engine from the WHRP series and stuck in this series real nice 'n' quiet like. It was fucking awful in Dark Heresy, it's fucking awful here (thank God for Only War making that engine somewhat playable -- still had to modify the shit out of it though). The arbitary limitation on stat max makes it so that you'll always end up playing mid-levels even in a supposedly high-level lategame. Even worse, while in NWOD have exponential costings for dots makes sense and is fun as fuck as it's own minigame of progression, in EOTE that shit doesn't fly and characters don't really get different from each other until MUCH later, much like in the aforementioned WHRP system. Although this is more of a player problem, if you have shitty players then when they have one extra dice at something and you don't and you're trying to fucking do extra-curricular shit (say like tending wounded refugees with Medicine or something) you can't because realistically they'll probs succeed on it because of the sharp numbers curve.

As a side, WFRPG 3rd failed hard because they did that stupid shit they did with Savage Worlds and added in cards for no fucking reason. That and the same dice mechanic discussed above.

Otherwise, low-key here, this game is fucking solid as a motherfucker and honestly, I wish I could GM it for you so can feel the awesome (because fuck trusting others to in my experience)

Quote from: HappyDaze;969169I don't mind the dice because those serve to provide a greater range of outcomes than traditional dice. What I don't like are "talent trees" that make you take a bunch of shit you don't want (and may never use) in order to get to the things that you are interested in having. It's particularly amusing that the "Dedication" talent always requires you to bore down to the bottom of a tree and pick up at least four other talents along the way to it. So much for being dedicated to improving in that one specific way as the road to Dedication is paved with assorted XP-sink distractions.

Agreed, Talents is shit. Should be optional, like completely optional. It's not if you want a character to be able do stuff once the CRs start getting much higher.

Quote from: hedgehobbit;969173I ran it for a few sessions and found that the dice were fundamentally flawed. In a normal game, I could easily have fixed it but I'd need to replace certain dice to really address the issue. Basically, since both Threat/Advantage and Success/Failure scale with the number of dice, resolutions tend to either succeed with tons of Advantage or fail with tons of Threat. Success with Threat or Failure with Advantage doesn't happen as often as it needs to which removes most of the point of having two axis of results.


Agreed. I see Dedication as a sort of pseudo leveling mechanic. I don't have a problem with Talents per se, but the game does start off much better than it ends up.

It doesn't even start good. It requires having half-decent equip for it to start decent. You also need a GM who's open to non-combat solutions and RP-based or creative use of dice rolling in order to get awarded EXP

Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;969223It's a convoluted, borderline impenetrable, Rube Goldberg machine of a game seemingly designed by and for Dustin Hoffman's character from Rain Man.  

FFG had the Holy Grail of RPG licences and they flushed it down the fucking toilet. What a waste.

Ah, shut your shit whino. Shiiittt.... That game's done fucking well and it's actually made dungeon dwellers want to play Star Wars in elfgame form. But I do agree with you on the convoluted part -- that's the standard party line for FFG on writing an RPG book unforts.

My nigga, they don't even have the WHRP license anymore. What the fuck you expect? That business was just a whole heaping mess.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;969229Yeap, flushed it so bad that they're making three separate lines that selling really well.  Complete and total loss...

It's fucking epic, innit?

I had a hard time with the dice at first, until someone told me it was "like reading tea leaves" and somehow that stuck with me. My group enjoyed dice interpretation and being able to be a little inventive as to what the results mean.

As to the rules, I don't like the complexity of the full rules sets but have enjoyed playing the Basic game through the boxed sets with the given pre-gens.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;969229Yeap, flushed it so bad that they're making three separate lines that selling really well.  Complete and total loss...

Or its doing so badly that they need to get players to buy three different versions just to make a profit?

aheh...

Its the IP thats moving the game. Otherwise it likely would have not done as well.

Quote from: finarvyn;969250I had a hard time with the dice at first, until someone told me it was "like reading tea leaves" and somehow that stuck with me. My group enjoyed dice interpretation and being able to be a little inventive as to what the results mean.

As to the rules, I don't like the complexity of the full rules sets but have enjoyed playing the Basic game through the boxed sets with the given pre-gens.

Exactly. Its an "oracle" style game. I suspect some of the heavy resistance would not be there if they had not gone with the abstract symbols and used something a little more parsable.

Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;969223It's a convoluted, borderline impenetrable, Rube Goldberg machine of a game seemingly designed by and for Dustin Hoffman's character from Rain Man.  

FFG had the Holy Grail of RPG licences and they flushed it down the fucking toilet. What a waste.

This is exactly correct. The fact that it sells is not really very important to anyone but the publishers - it is a train wreck of a game.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;969229Yeap, flushed it so bad that they're making three separate lines that selling really well.  Complete and total loss...

I forgot that sales = quality.
:rolleyes:

The proprietary dice system using symbols turned me off within minutes of picking up the book. Maybe it is simply because the way in which I read, hitting one of those symbols is jarring. I think it is a marketing gimmick designed for intellectual property reasons rather than creating a good game, so I see no reason to take another look.

But I will credit them in making me think more about usability of unusual dice systems. I was a bit put off by the DCCRPG system's funky dice, and that kept me from embracing the game at first. But now I quite like it, even if it can be really hard to tell apart some of the funky dice from each other.

I like things to happen because they make sense literally, not dramatically or abstractly, so, all of it's not really for me.

I like it. The quality of the books is fantastic and up there with other great products for art and layout.

The die mechanic works, my group of grognards tested it and we all agree it really helps capture that Star Wars feel could they have done that with regular dice though...probably.

My only real complaint is the obvious money grab of splitting it into three lines.

The dice symbols and abstracted ranges in Edge made it simple for my in-house group (my children) to get into, and from ages 7 to 19 it's been a winner.  

The don't split the party rule went out the window when part of the group can't make a session...due to homework!  Fun narrative interpretations of failures by the players are usually the best, and often the game can devolve into a Paranoia session. "That's a miss! And the two Despair results mean your blaster exploded and you have an 'agonizing wound' until you find a bacta tank!"

We love it though.

Gimmick dice and interpretational charts are no match for a solid d6 WEG system in your hands.

I totally disagree that the books are high quality. Their binding, paper and illustrations are high quality. The trouble is all the ink they used to fill in the rest of the open space on the pages. It is wildly, profoundly over written. By which I mean, verbose, wandering, repetitive, bloated, and overall just too, too, too, too much. So much space is devoted to rules upon rules upon rules that not much of the setting comes through.

I will agree that the writing and layout are not ideal, though.  "Over written" is a good description of it.  I'm also not a fan of buying the same rules three times.  If they would have gone with a Star Wars core book that had all the main rules and gear and a handful of basic careers and then did more specific books like Edge of the Empire as supplements, I think I would be much more willing to be buying them.

Quote from: Manic Modron;969311I will agree that the writing and layout are not ideal, though.  "Over written" is a good description of it.  I'm also not a fan of buying the same rules three times.  If they would have gone with a Star Wars core book that had all the main rules and gear and a handful of basic careers and then did more specific books like Edge of the Empire as supplements, I think I would be much more willing to be buying them.

A Core Rulebook like this one? (http://www.d6holocron.com/downloads/books/REUP.pdf)

Quote from: jeff37923;969312A Core Rulebook like this one? (http://www.d6holocron.com/downloads/books/REUP.pdf)

Forget Avon and Marlo, Jeff's always got your REUP. :D

That is a better layout for sure and playing the old D6 system again would be a lot of fun.  WEG will always be the giant shoulders all future companies will have to stand on and be compared to, even if it is just historical after years to come.

I still with FFG Star Wars was just a touch more put together.  I do like a lot of what FFG did with their version and I'd like to give it a fair shake, I just don't like how they present it.

Quote from: Omega;969259Or its doing so badly that they need to get players to buy three different versions just to make a profit?

Yes, because 80 dollar text books is so cheap to make, that they can just make them willy nilly.

Quote from: Omega;969259Its the IP thats moving the game. Otherwise it likely would have not done as well.

Probably, but it's moving it well enough that they can afford to have three separate game lines using the system.

Quote from: Dumarest;969276I forgot that sales = quality.
:rolleyes:

Who's talking about quality?  I'm talking about success.  And the game line is very successful, at the moment.

Quote from: jeff37923;969306Gimmick dice and interpretational charts are no match for a solid d6 WEG system in your hands.

Good luck finding the books, unless you know where they are on the 'net.  Not everyone has that knowledge.

Quote from: Manic Modron;969321I still with FFG Star Wars was just a touch more put together.  I do like a lot of what FFG did with their version and I'd like to give it a fair shake, I just don't like how they present it.

This I understand. I have a hard time getting behind a game that is incomplete unless you buy multiple separate rules and specialty dice in order to play. It does not make any sense to me from a business standpoint because it looks like a barrier to entry for enjoying the game. That is one of my main arguments against Mongoose Traveller 2nd Edition - you need to buy 2 +/- $50 rulebooks now to get what used to be in a single $40 Core rulebook.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;969325Good luck finding the books, unless you know where they are on the 'net.  Not everyone has that knowledge.

You know, there are these nifty little helpful inventions called "Search Engines" that you can use to find things.

Quote from: jeff37923;969329You know, there are these nifty little helpful inventions called "Search Engines" that you can use to find things.

You'd be amazed at how unmotivated people are.  Also, WEG's Star Wars system had some really wonky bits, like Wookiees being able to be immune to blaster pistols.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;969332You'd be amazed at how unmotivated people are.  Also, WEG's Star Wars system had some really wonky bits, like Wookiees being able to be immune to blaster pistols.

Jeff already hit you with the REUP, you got the whole package, feel me?

Quote from: jeff37923;969306Gimmick dice and interpretational charts are no match for a solid d6 WEG system in your hands.

I have two copies of WEG 1st edition plus the Sourcebook and the books for each of the three movies. Really don't see any reason to buy lesser versions just because they're new and have funny dice. I have pretty much all the Star Wars material I'll ever need.

Quote from: sureshot;969159Maybe I'm getting old. Or just don't have time for rpgs that use proprietary dice. I tried to recently read Edge of the Empire and their dice mechanic I just don't get it. I look at the older D6 Star Wars and it seems so much simpler. Fire at a Storm Trooper roll your total of D6s take into account any Wild Die or other modifiers vs difficulty number. That being said the D6 has it flaws.  It may also be why I'm not going to buy the new Star Trek rpg. to me at least it just seems like FFG is trying to hard to be different which sometimes can be a good thing. Yet also complicating matters at the same time.

I liked running one of the quick plays...but now I'm in the process of taking Saga Edition and replacing the math with D&D 5e math. Just couldn't make myself actually run the FFG version after the quickplay.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;969332You'd be amazed at how unmotivated people are.  Also, WEG's Star Wars system had some really wonky bits, like Wookiees being able to be immune to blaster pistols.

Blaster-proof wookies come from people not understanding the wounding rules. Every shot taken which does damage, even if it is just Wounded, will cause the damage level of the target to increase by one step. So if a wookie is shot and Wounded 3 times by a blaster pistol, it is Incapacitated. If the Incapacitated wookie is shot two more times, it is dead. Yes, that is a lot of shots (which reflects the wookie's Strength), but it is not immunity.

Quote from: jeff37923;969358Blaster-proof wookies come from people not understanding the wounding rules. Every shot taken which does damage, even if it is just Wounded, will cause the damage level of the target to increase by one step. So if a wookie is shot and Wounded 3 times by a blaster pistol, it is Incapacitated. If the Incapacitated wookie is shot two more times, it is dead. Yes, that is a lot of shots (which reflects the wookie's Strength), but it is not immunity.

I'm pretty sure by his pattern of ignorant posting that he was just repeating a canard he read on a forum as if it reflected actual game experience. But you sure schooled him. :p

I have almost the WEG books and it's not and has never been a great system unless you houserule and patch the crap out of it

Quote from: HorusArisen;969360I have almost the WEG books and it's not and has never been a great system unless you houserule and patch the crap out of it

That's just a load of nonsense.

Quote from: HorusArisen;969360I have almost the WEG books and it's not and has never been a great system unless you houserule and patch the crap out of it

Fair enough. Obviously the system does not suit you.

(Just so nobody gets to thinking that I am Talibanistic, while I am a (somewhat rabid) fan of certain games, I want to just point out strengths and weaknesses of them all. If I ever say something derogatory about a poster because of the game they prefer, it is meant in jest.)

(Unless you like storygames, then you are SWINE!)  :D

Quote from: HorusArisen;969360I have almost the WEG books and it's not and has never been a great system unless you houserule and patch the crap out of it

I find your lack of faith disturbing. *Force choke*

Quote from: PrometheanVigil;969232The fuck is wrong with you? How the hell have you not enjoyed this game? It's one of the only decent RPGs that is out at the moment. I mean, EOTE is really fucking solid. Don't really give a shit about the other two because nobody wants to play fucking bontha spy or nutcase with a lightsaber (especially since we've got Jedi Academy for that!).

LOL tell me how you really feel.

I know it's a solid rpg with great production values. As I said it's probably just me. I'm not writing it off completely and unlike some here I'm not calling it the worst piece of crap. Simply because it's different or because it's not their cup of tea. It's not a hard system at all yet it's not a intuitive system. Not like Star Wars D6 or D20 imo. I think if it were not for FFG pushing their proprietary dice it would be easier for me at least.  I still would recommend it to anyone interested in playing a Star Wars Rpg

Quote from: PrometheanVigil;969232Otherwise, low-key here, this game is fucking solid as a motherfucker and honestly, I wish I could GM it for you so can feel the awesome (because fuck trusting others to in my experience)

It is a solid game and it deserves to be played. I may take a look at it again at a later date.

Quote from: HorusArisen;969295My only real complaint is the obvious money grab of splitting it into three lines.

Seconded and pretty much FFG standard operating procedure.

Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;969223FFG had the Holy Grail of RPG licences and they flushed it down the fucking toilet. What a waste.

I agree with Christopher on this one. I'm not sure what drugs or combination of drugs your smoking. I may not like the dice mechanics it by no means a failure of a rpg it's not. Gamers enjoy it and more importantly it's profitable. People in the hobby need to stop trying to come across as purposefully naive when it comes to how business 101 works. A successful rpg has to be both popular and profitable. Having the first when it's a commercial failure is still a failure imo.

Quote from: HorusArisen;969295My only real complaint is the obvious money grab of splitting it into three lines.

Thats not the money grab part though. It is the standard FFG practice to split up the game within its line and withhold some elements. This has been a longstanding complaint with FFG.

For the record, I LOVE the WEG stuff, and I have found a website with most of the stuff (and I've redownloaded all the books I actually owned, despite having lost the hard copies of them) from it.  Also, I've found that a lot gamers have this annoying habit (and I do mean that, I find it annoying) that an unsupported game is 'dead' and not worth playing.

The dice are a gimmick, but then so are polyhedrals in D&D.

Personally, I prefer simple dice mechanics with innovations found in other areas of the game. Complicated dice systems may seem colourful, but I see them as a distraction to roleplaying sometimes - a point lost on a number of game designers these days, I feel.

The line of seperate games is obviously a marketing ploy too - none of the movies genuinely tried to seperate out Fringe/Rebel/Jedi adventures in such a way. They were all just a mash up of all three at once. Moreover, if WEG and WotC could make a single core rule book, then it's not something FFG couldn't have chosen to do also.

Star Wars, as a brand, will always sell well and the advantages of a big license means that big, glossy, full colour books are normally a given. I find the writing style a bit impersonal though, and the learning curve of the dice mechanics is enough to sway me in the direction of WEG Star Wars still. Then again, I would probably still use Traveller to run my own style anyway.

The best SW game I've played in the past few years was SW using Savage Worlds. That rocked.

I remember when SW Saga Edition came out right at the end of the WotC license. It played pretty well.

I haven't tried the FFG version. Nothing I've seen about it gets my interest.

When I ran SW, I ran Old Republic via the Dark Horse comics using WEG 1e rules. That was a blast.

If I ran SW today? I don't know if I would. Canon monkeys bitching isn't worth my time.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;969449The dice are a gimmick, but then so are polyhedrals in D&D.

I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here and say that polyhedral dice are much more common than FFG Star Wars dice, so that argument may have worked when 0D&D first came out but it doesn't hold water now.

Quote from: Dumarest;969362That's just a load of nonsense.

Except it's not. YMMV

Quote from: jeff37923;969364Fair enough. Obviously the system does not suit you.

(Just so nobody gets to thinking that I am Talibanistic, while I am a (somewhat rabid) fan of certain games, I want to just point out strengths and weaknesses of them all. If I ever say something derogatory about a poster because of the game they prefer, it is meant in jest.)

(Unless you like storygames, then you are SWINE!)  :D

Lol. Thanks although I'll give that I only played never ran d6 games

Quote from: John Scott;969418I find your lack of faith disturbing. *Force choke*

Unfortunately you rolled a botch so force choked yourself or some such nonsense

Quote from: jeff37923;969457I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here and say that polyhedral dice are much more common than FFG Star Wars dice, so that argument may have worked when 0D&D first came out but it doesn't hold water now.

They arent a gimmic. Gary just came across them and they apparently fit what he was working on. Some wargames before D&D used non-standard dice too. But just did it with chits instead. Even OD&D came with those.

Quote from: Omega;969469They arent a gimmic. Gary just came across them and they apparently fit what he was working on.

That's the epitome of what a gimmick is, though.

And here's the thing, each of the dice in FFG's SW line are the same polyhedrals, but instead of numbers, they have symbols, like Fudge or FATE.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;969471And here's the thing, each of the dice in FFG's SW line are the same polyhedrals, but instead of numbers, they have symbols, like Fudge or FATE.

There is a vast world of difference between the very simple math of Fudge's + and - symbols and the way that FFG's special dice work. Everyone sitting down to a game of Fate or Fudge who has gone to school (which should cover just about everyone) already has the connection in their brain such that +1 and -1 make sense when they see those symbols, and interpreting the dice involves math skills that a five-year-old should be able to manage. FFG dice do their own thing, and no one sitting down to their first game is going to have any sort of connection to what the symbols represent or how they are meant to be used. Some people can pick them up quickly, but for others it's a major chore and not worth the effort when there are so many other options out there.

Quote from: jeff37923;969457I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here and say that polyhedral dice are much more common than FFG Star Wars dice, so that argument may have worked when 0D&D first came out but it doesn't hold water now.

I was making the point about OD&D and the choice to go with polyhedrals in the first place. It was as much a gimmick then as Star Wars dice (and the App, don't forget) are gimmicks now. Yes, time has made polyhedrals familiar, but that is hardly the point being made.

Quote from: HorusArisen;969465Except it's not. YMMV

Now pull the other one.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;969471That's the epitome of what a gimmick is, though.

And here's the thing, each of the dice in FFG's SW line are the same polyhedrals, but instead of numbers, they have symbols, like Fudge or FATE.

One might argue it's not a gimmick as gimmicks are supposed to make you want to buy something whereas needing rare specialty dice (at the time) seems like it would be a deterrent to sales.

I'm on a tight budget and have a half-dozen Star Wars RPGs already, four of which work just fine. I'm also more invested in the Legends universe than the New Canon. Why should I buy the FFG stuff? :)

Speaking as mostly a fan of the new books... I don't see why you would.  You have a lot, you don't have much money to spend and if conflicts rise up in the setting information you sound like you are more likely to discard the new stuff in favor of what you already know... so it sounds like a losing scenario for you.

If you didn't already have as many star wars books as you saw you do I'd say that it could be worth it to get a beginners box and see if you like the style of it.  However, you sound like you already have a solid foundation.  Pick up the adventures to mine for plot points if you like and just go with what you have!

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;969503I'm on a tight budget and have a half-dozen Star Wars RPGs already, four of which work just fine. I'm also more invested in the Legends universe than the New Canon. Why should I buy the FFG stuff? :)

You shouldn't.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;969503I'm on a tight budget and have a half-dozen Star Wars RPGs already, four of which work just fine. I'm also more invested in the Legends universe than the New Canon. Why should I buy the FFG stuff? :)

'Cos you're a sucker for the hype?

Quote from: Christopher Brady;969508You shouldn't.

Seconded. Unless one has disposable income getting into the FFG Star Wars rpgs will cost a decent amount imo. Yes I know buying rpgs is a investment of money yet it's much more than other rpgs. The core books in Canadian Dollars go for between 80 or 90$ even on Amazon unless their is a special. The sourcebooks 40$. All before tax. A pack of dice go for 31$. Yes I know about the dice apps but not everyone wants to use the apps.

Quote from: Brand55;969476There is a vast world of difference between the very simple math of Fudge's + and - symbols and the way that FFG's special dice work. Everyone sitting down to a game of Fate or Fudge who has gone to school (which should cover just about everyone) already has the connection in their brain such that +1 and -1 make sense when they see those symbols, and interpreting the dice involves math skills that a five-year-old should be able to manage. FFG dice do their own thing, and no one sitting down to their first game is going to have any sort of connection to what the symbols represent or how they are meant to be used. Some people can pick them up quickly, but for others it's a major chore and not worth the effort when there are so many other options out there.

The only reason for the symbols was to make sure one bought either the dice app or the propriatary dice. Other than that I can't see any good reason for the symbols. That being said it's still a decent rpg whose teaching it to others is not helped with having propriatary dice.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;969483I was making the point about OD&D and the choice to growth polyhedrals in the first place. It was as much a gimmick then as Star Wars dice (and the App, don't forget) are gimmicks now. Yes, time has made polyhedrals familiar, but that is hardly the point being made.

Very good point.

I have most of the FFGSW materials, and I've playtested for FFG on some of them. However, I one thing about the product line that still irks me is the division into three lines. This worked out with their WH40K lines where crossovers are fairly uncommon in the source material, but it fails utterly in Star Wars. In the original trilogy, we have Solo (Smuggler/Pilot or Scoundrel) and Chewbacca (Explorer/Fringer) that are obviously Edge of the Empire characters, Leia (Commander/Figurehead or Diplomat/Ambassador) who is obviously an Age of Rebellion character, and Kenobi (Guardian/damn near all of them) who is very much a Force and Destiny character. Luke is arguably an Age of Rebellion character (Ace/Pilot) at the start, but he could also be made as a Force and Destiny character (Warrior/Starfighter Ace). The droids could be Edge or Age, but more likely the latter. If you want to go to the newer side, the Rebels show has a mix of all three too. It's not that a campaign focused on one of the three games can't be done, it's that Star Wars doesn't do it that way most of the time. So if you want to do what many people consider to be Star Wars, you're buying a lot of very expensive books.

The person running this website is a racist who publicly advocates genocidal practices.

I am deleting my content.

I recommend you do the same.

Quote from: Dumarest;969501Now pull the other one.

I'm sensing your one of those gamers for whom different opinions and experiences somehow affect your enjoyment of a game.

Three separate players in my group ran multiple games of SW using d6 we enjoyed all of none of them, we kept bashing at it because we live Star Wars.

One trial game using FFG and the silly dice and we all felt it captured the feel and was more enjoyable.  Like I said YMMV but that's our experience.

I've never played the d6 SW. Not that big of a fan of the setting is the main reason. Also when it came to non-D&D games it was CoC that stole my heart back then.

I've read that the d6 version is rather deadly. This seems distinctly unsuited to a Star Wars universe. Is it truly that deadly?

Quote from: Voros;969546I've never played the d6 SW. Not that big of a fan of the setting is the main reason. Also when it came to non-D&D games it was CoC that stole my heart back then.

I've read that the d6 version is rather deadly. This seems distinctly unsuited to a Star Wars universe. Is it truly that deadly?

Not as badly as people make out. With houseruling it's a workable system

Hmm...if I have to houserule to get it to work...why not just use a different system that does work?

The D6 system isn't that deadly. It's a fairly standard two-tiered contested dice pool system.

The attack roll to hit is contested by Dodging or parrying. The Damage roll is resisted by Strength. The sum of the remainder is checked for the level of damage with different levels giving incapacity penalties that stack. Load up on Dodge skill, and take cover is the basic tactic in a firefight. You can use Character points to boost resistance rolls, and Medpacks can heal characters pretty quickly.

Character's can die, but it normally takes a couple of accurate blasts before they go down.

Quote from: Voros;969558Hmm...if I have to houserule to get it to work...why not just use a different system that does work?

This is my experience but you'll get others who say otherwise and it's a popular system.

Quote from: Voros;969546I've never played the d6 SW. Not that big of a fan of the setting is the main reason. Also when it came to non-D&D games it was CoC that stole my heart back then.

I've read that the d6 version is rather deadly. This seems distinctly unsuited to a Star Wars universe. Is it truly that deadly?

As has been said, WEG's D6 allows for defensive actions (Brawling Parry, Dodge, and Melee Parry for characters). It also allows similar defenses for starships, making a skilled pilot far harder to shoot down than a rookie. This is something that is sorely absent in the FFG systems. If your defense fails, then you roll your Strength (plus armor) for characters or Hull (plus shields) for starships against the damage. This part can be deadly. Hits generally hurt, at least if they're on the same scale (another thing WEG did way better than FFG). So the big thing with WEG is to avoid being hit while FFG uses hit points (specifically, damage is soaked and then adds up until it exceeds a certain threshold...but it feels like hit points and there's healing potions/stimpacks too).

Yeah I know Greg Costikyan was the lead designer and I find his games usually of an exceptionally high standard. Never understood why there's not more of cult of personality around him. But I guess he left RPGs behind a long time ago.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;969540Jon Peterson wrote a blog post about this back in 2013 (http://playingattheworld.blogspot.com/2013/02/how-gaming-got-its-dice.html).

Arneson had this to say.

QuoteMy European tour finally pulled into London, England and I visited a game store near Trafalgar Square called The Tradition Stop (Note: All times, places and locations are subject to poor recollection. I am doing my aged, feeble best.)

Upstairs was a small game section -- the games at the time being purely ones with military miniatures. (Board games in England were a rarity back then.) Amidst the Military History books, painting guides, and miniatures was a small bin containing a handful of 20-sided dice.

They were red and black. The numbers were not 'filled' and judging but the flaws in the ones I still have, not all that well made.

I bought three pairs.
...
After Don't Give Up the Ship I started in on Blackmoor (the forerunner of D&D), and the 20-siders resurfaced. Magic, being the strange, arcane thing that it is, cried out for strange dice.
...
OK, so D&D was going to be published. We needed a source of 20-siders. The boys in Geneva found a source on the West Coast.

It was a small educational toy company that sold sets of dice for showing shapes. Each set had 1-4 sided (yellow), 1-6 sided (pink), 1-8 sided (bright green), 1-12 sided (light blue), and one 20-sided (a white one numbered 1-10).

Made of soft plastic no one realized how quickly the 20-siders would wear out.
...
The rules were not quite done when a problem arose. Would we break open the sets and take out only the 6-sider and the 20-sider? (The others would be donated to a local school)

Well, a little work shoed how labor intensive that would be, not to mention a waste of dice.

The answer?

Add rules that used the 4-sided, 6-sided, 8-sided, 12-sided, and not just the 20-sided dice.

So according to this there must not have been any polyhedrals at all prior. Well. Aside from the d6. So I assume anything before that used chits or d6 tables to simulate. I know I've seen chits used to simulate percentile dice. But cant pin down the game or time. So could be after.

Quote from: HappyDaze;969565As has been said, WEG's D6 allows for defensive actions (Brawling Parry, Dodge, and Melee Parry for characters). It also allows similar defenses for starships, making a skilled pilot far harder to shoot down than a rookie. This is something that is sorely absent in the FFG systems.

We noticed this as well, FFG's game is more about soaking damage than avoiding hits which doesn't feel very Star Warsy. Even a Jedi's ability to deflect blaster bolts is handled by reducing incoming damage.

Quote from: Voros;969546I've read that the d6 version is rather deadly. This seems distinctly unsuited to a Star Wars universe. Is it truly that deadly?

I would also take that with a huge grain of salt. People forget that no matter what the characters in the movies were going to succeed no matter the odds simply because the script said so. Even if it was detrimental to the image of Stormtroopers in general. Despite them being elite troops they suddenly can't hit the broadside of a barn when it came to the main characters in the movies. The only issue I can see is that depending on how those with major investments of points into Force skills can dominate the game. Yes that is OK in the movies not so much at tables if the player using the Force can do everything.

Quote from: sureshot;969592I would also take that with a huge grain of salt. People forget that no matter what the characters in the movies were going to succeed no matter the odds simply because the script said so. Even if it was detrimental to the image of Stormtroopers in general. Despite them being elite troops they suddenly can't hit the broadside of a barn when it came to the main characters in the movies.

  Don't take the Death Star scenes in Episode IV too seriously for establishing stormtrooper competence. It's pretty clear in the movie (and explicit in the radio drama) that the Empire let the Rebels go while making it look good, in order to get a lead on the Yavin base.

Quote from: Manic Modron;969507Speaking as mostly a fan of the new books... I don't see why you would.  You have a lot, you don't have much money to spend and if conflicts rise up in the setting information you sound like you are more likely to discard the new stuff in favor of what you already know... so it sounds like a losing scenario for you.

If you didn't already have as many star wars books as you saw you do I'd say that it could be worth it to get a beginners box and see if you like the style of it.  However, you sound like you already have a solid foundation.  Pick up the adventures to mine for plot points if you like and just go with what you have!

  Thanks. The question was semi-rhetorical, semi-serious--I'm willing to be convinced if the new games are a dramatic improvement over d6 or d20 SAGA, or have a lot of great source material that I don't already have in other forms. But it sounds like they're like 5E D&D--solid productions, but not quantum leaps over older stuff I already own and am comfortable with.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;969629Don't take the Death Star scenes in Episode IV too seriously for establishing stormtrooper competence. It's pretty clear in the movie (and explicit in the radio drama) that the Empire let the Rebels go while making it look good, in order to get a lead on the Yavin base.

If you want to see some stormtrooper competency, watch Rogue One. Lots of Rebels die.

Quote from: Omega;969425Thats not the money grab part though. It is the standard FFG practice to split up the game within its line and withhold some elements. This has been a longstanding complaint with FFG.

There was a 30 dollar beta version/playtest and a 30 dollar starter boxset for each of the three FFG Star Wars games, speaking of money grab.

The FFG Star Wars starter sets aren't that bad a deal, you get a $15 set of custom dice, two sided poster map, and tokens, etc. As for the Beta versions, I skipped them all.

I collected a bunch of the early Edge of the Empire books. Nice quality, a fair chunk of the price went for the "Star Wars" name I'm sure. I stopped buying when my Star Wars campaign fell apart. Just pricey enough that I didn't see a point in buying if I wasn't going to be playing.

Quote from: jeff37923;969637If you want to see some stormtrooper competency, watch Rogue One. Lots of Rebels die.

Rogue one does help improve the image of Stormtrooper competency which made me happy. The earlier movies made Stormtroopers out to be a joke imo. The prequals did not help matters either how the hell did the Stomtroopers go from being so badass to not being able to fire in a straight line unless it's against generic rebel # 34.

Quote from: jeff37923;969637If you want to see some stormtrooper competency, watch Rogue One. Lots of Rebels die.

The same Rogue One where stormtroopers couldn't hit a slowly moving blind guy walking out in the open right in front of them. At least Luke & Co had the decency to run around when getting shot at.

Quote from: Dumarest;969362That's just a load of nonsense.

I must agree with Horus. 1E was a great game, but everything after (including the beloved 2E Revised and Bloated) needs some serious house-ruling:

Wild die
Bloated skill list
Character points as XP
Willpower
Maxing specialties
Lightsaber combat (power)
Concentration (power)
No cap to splitting dice pools
Quadding

That's just off the top of my head. I played 1E back in the 80's and thought it might be fun to try it again with 2E R&E. After a page of house rules just to fix the game, I moved on.

We just played the starter set adventure for one of the boxed sets the other week... I dont know which one, the pregens were Pash the smuggler, a wookie with an axe, Vex 41 I think the mechanic/med droid and Oskara the bounty hunter. We were escaping from Teemo the Hut off some desert planet from memory. I had a great time, it was good fun. Never seen the system before or the dice. Art and maps were terrific. Took about 10 mins to pick it up. On the other hand I suspect we were using "starter" simplified rules and our GM is very experienced, he could make any system fun, frankly.

I very much liked the improv effect of the dice. I liked stress being separate to wounds, and I liked that wounds are basically set and dont increase as you gain experience. That made me feel like a large group of enemies is going to be pretty deady for anyone. I thought heavy blasters were quite deadly, and so were storm troopers (well, there was some weird minion or swarm like rule that whittled down their ability to fight, that made them less dangerous than they should be, I didnt like that actually). But overall - good fun, plays quick, custom dice are easy to understand, lots of fun impro as a player. What's not to like?

Not sure how easy it is to GM, but it appeared fairly fast and loose re when to add more threat dice or whatever. Perhaps this system plays best without all the extra complicating rules that dont appear to be in the starter set. That was my experience as first timer, in any event.

Quote from: jeff37923;969637If you want to see some stormtrooper competency, watch Rogue One. Lots of Rebels die.

Or if you want to see an example of the annoying-as-hell good-at-everything character no one wants in their group, see Rey from Episode VII!

The person running this website is a racist who publicly advocates genocidal practices.

I am deleting my content.

I recommend you do the same.

Quote from: AaronBrown99;969731Or if you want to see an example of the annoying-as-hell good-at-everything character no one wants in their group, see Rey from Episode VII!

I find it amusing how much this bothers you. :D

Quote from: sureshot;969159Maybe I'm getting old. Or just don't have time for rpgs that use proprietary dice. I tried to recently read Edge of the Empire and their dice mechanic I just don't get it. I look at the older D6 Star Wars and it seems so much simpler. Fire at a Storm Trooper roll your total of D6s take into account any Wild Die or other modifiers vs difficulty number. That being said the D6 has it flaws.  It may also be why I'm not going to buy the new Star Trek rpg. to me at least it just seems like FFG is trying to hard to be different which sometimes can be a good thing. Yet also complicating matters at the same time.

FFG's Star Wars and Modiphius' Star Trek Adventures both use Role-Play Removed rules (RPR). They're not for everyone.

Quote from: Voros;969546I've never played the d6 SW. Not that big of a fan of the setting is the main reason. Also when it came to non-D&D games it was CoC that stole my heart back then.

I've read that the d6 version is rather deadly. This seems distinctly unsuited to a Star Wars universe. Is it truly that deadly?

Straight statement: hard No. Compared to games like Warhammer Fantasy RPG, where you quickly accumulate permanent cripplements, or Cyberpunk where combat-centric games quickly escalates into people attempting headshots with armor-piercing ammo and first one to successfully hit effectively wins (or Traveller where ending up in a heavy-weapons fight while wearing 'small-arms fight' level armor pretty much means hide behind things until the fight blows over), no it is not. I think it might have gotten that reputation because when it first came out a lot of people looking at it had never played anything except hp-system games like D&D. WEG SW is a injury scale system (like the shadowrun of the time or soon enough WoD), meaning you only ever have about 7 hit points. On the other hand, if you get hit for a low enough damage total compared to your armor-adjusted STR, your wound level might not change, or change much (leading to Chris's comment above that wookies are almost immune to blaster pistols.

Honestly speaking, the wound system is not the worst part of the WEG SW game. The biggest issue with it is that advancement doesn't feel very advance-y. It's similar to Champions/Hero System--getting to be able to consistently hit mooks, and eventually consistently not be threatened by the book standard mooks (maybe even in large numbers) feels good. But eventually when you get Captain Falcon in your Champions game doing 10d6 punching damage (or Duke Skyrunner getting 6D force abilities), getting it up to 12D6 punching or 7D+2 force just doesn't feel all that much like you've changed anything.

Quote from: Voros;969558Hmm...if I have to houserule to get it to work...why not just use a different system that does work?

I find that statement odd, because we wouldn't make it for anything except RPGs. Let's pretend for a moment that the common house-rule for Monopoly of money on free parking was actually a good idea, and actually fixes a broken game (it actually extends and already long game, but the specifics are beside the point). If the perfect game for you and your group was Monopoly with that house-rule, the solution is to play the game with that house rule, not play Sorry instead because while it isn't the right game for you, at least it works as written. At best, we can say, "those foolish designers are imperfect. I shall judge them harshly for the fact that the fans had to dream up a fix to their published system to make it work perfectly for our goals." And that's... true I guess. Yay us, or something? And that's without going into things like the joy of modding and making something old work for new purposes and how much more fun a model-A hotrod can be than a brand new sports car, etc. etc.

Suffice to say, I think both WEG and this new SW have their problems (or problems for some and not others). To keep as many options on the table as possible is probably a good thing, and throwing out one because it needs a fix is throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;969801FFG's Star Wars and Modiphius' Star Trek Adventures both use Role-Play Removed rules (RPR). They're not for everyone.

What pages are the RPR sections on?  I missed them in actual play and we wound up roleplaying.  Oops!

Quote from: jeff37923;969749I find it amusing how much this bothers you. :D

That's nothing. I still haven't got over watching ESB in 1980, and seeing the great Jedi Master turn out to be a puppet with Miss Piggy's voice. Even at 8 years old, that completely killed the immersion. On the plus side, at least people stopped complaining about gay robots.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;969873The biggest issue with it is that advancement doesn't feel very advance-y. It's similar to Champions/Hero System--getting to be able to consistently hit mooks, and eventually consistently not be threatened by the book standard mooks (maybe even in large numbers) feels good. But eventually when you get Captain Falcon in your Champions game doing 10d6 punching damage (or Duke Skyrunner getting 6D force abilities), getting it up to 12D6 punching or 7D+2 force just doesn't feel all that much like you've changed anything.

Um, this kind of misses what advancement was for. Yes, you increase in skill, making you better able to do things, but also making you better able to do multiple actions (you can make an extra action at the cost of 1D in skill to the skill used for the extra action) and better to do opposed actions against NPCs (while most skill use requires rolling against a static number, when used against a NPC in opposition like say Blaster versus Dodge to hit - you must roll a number of skill dice against your opponents skill dice in a contest).

I can see where this may be a confusing approach, especially when it first came out in 1987, but it does very well in emulating the action of the Star Wars genre.

Quote from: Krimson;969881That's nothing. I still haven't got over watching ESB in 1980, and seeing the great Jedi Master turn out to be a puppet with Miss Piggy's voice. Even at 8 years old, that completely killed the immersion. On the plus side, at least people stopped complaining about gay robots.

I remember when ESB came out and Miss Yoda mentioned "The Other", my friends and I kept telling people that "The Other" was R2-D2 because he used The Force to cause the red R2 unit to blow its motivator when the jawas sold C-3PO to Owen and Luke so he could go instead.

Quote from: jeff37923;969887I remember when ESB came out and Miss Yoda mentioned "The Other", my friends and I kept telling people that "The Other" was R2-D2 because he used The Force to cause the red R2 unit to blow its motivator when the jawas sold C-3PO to Owen and Luke so he could go instead.

I had a theory that R2-D2 was Darth Plageus. Using an electrical attack on Yoda was certainly evidence, and of all the characters in the entire series, R2 was the only one who was aware of everything that was happening, and he probably knew things that no one else did. If he was secretly a Sith in droid form from Naboo (which is likely a forgotten Sith colony, well almost forgotten...) he was certainly in a position to manipulate nearly everyone.

Edit: responding to post #88. Was last post when I started writing.

I'm aware of that. It still slowly lost any sensation of advancement for my group, and anecdotally I've hard others complain that it didn't scale up well past a certain point. Certainly the 'better to do opposed actions against NPCs' part was less than appealing for us ('oh good, now my blaster skill is 1D higher and I'm fighting opponents with 1D higher dodge').  Maybe it was just in comparison to what we were playing at the time, like D&D, where advancement often got you onto entire different playing fields (spell levels, or into the domain management game).

Okay, one more time from the top - (I should make this a macro for FFG SW threads).

Longtime WEG Star Wars fan here. Love it. Yes it's not perfect. Yes it needs a few houserule tweaks - what game doesn't?

FFG Star Wars Criticisms common to this forum

1) Gimmicky Dice - Yes they are gimmicky. Who gives a fuck. They work consistent with the math behind the system and it works. If you don't like using their dice - feel free to clunk it up and use the conversion chart for normal dice. https://i.warosu.org/data/tg/img/0396/47/1430327598908.png

2) Dice Resolution Mechanic is WEIRD! - Success/Fail, Advantage/Disadvantage, Triumphs/Despair. Three axis. Small numbers. Most of them simply cancel out. This is not advanced math. You rarely go beyond double digits. The symbols are literally color-coded because they only appear on specific dice. This is not rocket science. It's barely more than basic addition and subtraction. The end result is you have Success or Failure in varying degrees. No different than rolling a horde of d6's in WEG's SW and determining how far over your TN was + the Wild Die!

3) Narrative Mechanics! - Common complaint I see over and over and over are the narrative mechanics. The narrative mechanics as such are simply there for use if you indeed *like* using them. As I've said on almost every single FFG thread, this is an invalid criticism because you can simply use the Advantages/Threats as discrete values. HARD NUMBERS WITH HARD RESULTS (oh shit... this is making me hard). I am not a fan of narrative mechanics. If this were even close to being the "narrative game" detractors make it out to be - I wouldn't even be playing it. Oh look - a handy chart. http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-zgLIJX7quU8/Vb6ZaHN2JdI/AAAAAAAAK6w/8iFGfZXDLqQ/s1600/Dice%2BResults.png

4) Cost. Okay you got me here. The books are pricey. But I'm not going to tell you how to spend your money. This is not a reason to shit on the game. This is a business venture where a company is putting out a product. Electing to not buy a product because it costs money, or is beyond your current financial situation to purchase it is not a criticism of the game itself. That said - FFG has put out... a fucking Silhouette 7-sized amount of gaming material that is top-notch in production quality.

5) Money-Grab Release Schedule - I call bullshit on this. They broke up Star Wars along well established options of play that frankly I give him double-credit for. There is *no way* they could drop one book to cover the stuff they've covered. Impossible. It would have been watered down and shitty. And I'm saying this as someone that doesn't even *USE* the books - from any of the three lines - in the era that they assume you're playing in. They took a bold choice (a risky one at that) sticking with Outer-Rim material, and covering it in depth, and moving on to Military then Force users. *Every* major aspect of Star Wars is covered without a single blip in loss of production or writing quality.

6) WEG is better - why do I need this? - You don't. I fully agree you can get all the d6 material out there and play the holy shit out of Star Wars.

New Criticisms!

7) Talent Tree - I agree. Not a big fan. One way to decouple it is to drop Roles and categorize Talents as "abilities" anyone can purchase and re-adjust costs. This would also require changing the skill selection, but ultimately I think it would make a cleaner and more interesting way of playing.

8) Progression - Players start too weak imo. I usually give everyone 1 Free rank in Recruit (1 talent). And/or extra xp. It's easy to regulate progression through XP acquisition - as long as you adjust accordingly.

Quote from: tenbones;969903...
3) Narrative Mechanics! - Common complaint I see over and over and over are the narrative mechanics. The narrative mechanics as such are simply there for use if you indeed *like* using them. As I've said on almost every single FFG thread, this is an invalid criticism because you can simply use the Advantages/Threats as discrete values. HARD NUMBERS WITH HARD RESULTS (oh shit... this is making me hard). I am not a fan of narrative mechanics. If this were even close to being the "narrative game" detractors make it out to be - I wouldn't even be playing it. Oh look - a handy chart. http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-zgLIJX7quU8/Vb6ZaHN2JdI/AAAAAAAAK6w/8iFGfZXDLqQ/s1600/Dice%2BResults.png
...

Tenbones, I've read and appreciated what you've explained about this system (in various past threads - I haven't read all of this thread), and how you could toss a lot of the narrative stuff. However I think that just reading the table you provided, it's clear that something very abstract and non-representational is going on compared to a game where things tend to happen because of the situation. I guess maybe that could be framed as being gamey but not narrative, but I think I'd still want to use some story-related word to describe how the abstract dice are translated via creative interpretation into a description. e.g. The table mentions you can turn a couple of die symbols into spotting blast door control panels, as opposed to a literal spot roll based on the situation. e.g. Another die roll combo lets you ignore environmental modifiers, instead of there needing to be some logical way you could avoid being impaired by a situation. e.g. Another die roll trade lets you give a pal a bonus to their roll, which presumably you make up some reason for it, instead of there actually having to be something you do in play that has some rules to it that make sense about when you could do it and what the effect is. What would be a good term for that, or has someone coined one already? Narrative interpretation of an abstract die roll system?

i.e. it still seems pretty narrative-y to me.

Quote from: Skarg;969918Tenbones, I've read and appreciated what you've explained about this system (in various past threads - I haven't read all of this thread), and how you could toss a lot of the narrative stuff. However I think that just reading the table you provided, it's clear that something very abstract and non-representational is going on compared to a game where things tend to happen because of the situation. I guess maybe that could be framed as being gamey but not narrative, but I think I'd still want to use some story-related word to describe how the abstract dice are translated via creative interpretation into a description. e.g. The table mentions you can turn a couple of die symbols into spotting blast door control panels, as opposed to a literal spot roll based on the situation. e.g. Another die roll combo lets you ignore environmental modifiers, instead of there needing to be some logical way you could avoid being impaired by a situation. e.g. Another die roll trade lets you give a pal a bonus to their roll, which presumably you make up some reason for it, instead of there actually having to be something you do in play that has some rules to it that make sense about when you could do it and what the effect is. What would be a good term for that, or has someone coined one already? Narrative interpretation of an abstract die roll system?

i.e. it still seems pretty narrative-y to me.

The table is including narrative options as an example. But again - they're perfectly optional. There's a couple of things that might be confusing if you're not used to the mechanics. Environmental issues are handled with Setback dice - which are the black squares (they're black d6's you add to rolls if there are environmental issues). You can mitigate these with Talents, gear, or the GM can just simply not include them as part of your roll. That's the same exact narrative call as *any* RPG where a GM adjudicates difficulties by adding/subtracting modifiers.

Most of these are covered. In FFGSW - it's basically 1-3, with 3 being really bad modifiers. Running across slippery ice might be 3-setback dice for trying to do an acrobatic manuever, for instance.

This cuts both ways with adding Booster dice (blue d6's). You get them for Talents, gear, or GM fiat. Much like in D&D's various editions where attacking someone from higher ground gives you +1, or attacking someone from behind - etc. The difference here is you have *those* kinds of guidelines (there are other tables) plus you have the general flexibility of GM fiat with good common-sense guidelines.

So let's take it from a more realistic angle that you're alluding to. You're essentially asking "What if my player rolls a shitload of Advantages - does this mean I *have* do some improv to justify what just happened?" The answer is no. You *could* if you wanted to. But if improv ain't your thing, you are not beholden to. Further - that's precisely why the economy of the game relies on players and GM's using those Advantages to activate gear and Talent abilities.

Case in point - Let's say you shoot a Gungan and get 1-success and 4 Advantages. You say "my blaster has a Crit Rating of 2 - I spend 2 Advantages to land a Critical Strike. And I use the other two Advantages to dive for cover as a free maneuver." You as the GM can color that whole thing as you see fit. Just like any other RPG. And if you wanted - you could give a narrative "thing" to those four Advantages if you wanted.

The Advantage trading is something that I find is close to being "narrative" - but again it's a discrete mechanic. You're giving a bonus to your fellow PC's - much like in D&D where you can give bonuses to your fellow players by doing certain actions. If coming up with a colorful reason on the spot is difficult - just use the mechanical value and let the bonus's roll on. When a player does a Feint maneuver in D&D and gives his fellow party member using the Help manuever, this is the exact same thing. You can describe it (narrative!) or keep things rolling and just hand out the bonus.

The exact same thing is true with Threat results in reverse.

Is it "gamey"? I guess. I don't see it any more gamey than other games in its Crunch-Weightclass. Is it narrative? Only if you want it to be.

Interesting, thanks tenbones! I'd be interested in seeing you GM a small tactical shootout situation with non-Force characters. I think I'll have to admit I don't know how it really can be used until I see a demo or get stuck someplace with the rules for a while. Meanwhile, I see you clearly have got it to work well for you, and I thank you for taking the time to explain.

Maybe we can get tenbones to GM a game for us and show us how it works.

Quote from: Skarg;969926Interesting, thanks tenbones! I'd be interested in seeing you GM a small tactical shootout situation with non-Force characters. I think I'll have to admit I don't know how it really can be used until I see a demo or get stuck someplace with the rules for a while. Meanwhile, I see you clearly have got it to work well for you, and I thank you for taking the time to explain.

Funny you should say that. Until this game I'm currently running, I've never *had* a Force user. Every game I've had has been Edge-related. Mercenaries, Bounty Hunters, Smugglers, Fringers, Technies all doing gun-work/crime/etc. so the *vast* majority of my experience in FFG has been doing shootouts. It really doesn't work too different than any other game in this regard.

I stay very cognizant of the setting where various scenes are taking place, I give my players as much information as I think their characters would readily see or understand (I try to make people only roll for things that matter). So when combat breaks out, I make sure everyone understands the literal lay of the land - ranges, etc. The normal combat procedures handle everything else. When I do descriptions of stuff - I try to put as much Star Wars-lensed-through-our-game (our games tend to be darker than standard Star Wars) and let the blaster-fire fly.

FFGs combat is pretty smooth. You can simulate the players going up against a bunch of clods, vs. trained badasses with minimal effort. The biggest adjustment most non-FFG's players have to make is simply learning the dice-mechanics. And I maintain it's not that hard. The number values are so low it's ridiculous. You rarely have to count higher than 5.... hahah no shit. You roll the dice, remove the values that cancel each other out. Results!*

*Interpreting those results in non-narrative fashion is *easy*. There are no random damage values outside extra success on the roll. It really just takes a couple of encounters and you see how easy it is. Best thing: ship combat is 99% the same as normal combat, just different scale.

Quote from: Dumarest;969938Maybe we can get tenbones to GM a game for us and show us how it works.

I wish. I'm pretty busy with my own game and my other projects I'm working on. BUT... seeing as I'm probably the most vocal proponent of this game on this forum, I'm more than happy to field questions, scenarios, etc. to demystify the opaqueness of the game.

Anyone that goes back far enough will see me poking around here asking questions long before I ever played the damn thing. I made sure the first game I ever ran I did basic combat, and ship-combat. There is a ton of social gameplay here too (gambling, negotiating, coercing etc) but we all know that's the easy shit. If combat didn't hold up AND be fun to the standard I have with WEG - then no amount of convincing would make me drop the gold-brick in cash it would take to own this line.

But it did. And thus I do.

Edit: I fully submit this isn't a game that OSR aficionado's will probably like. It's got crunch. But it's not nearly as much as most people think. There is a ton of sub-systems that are fully plugged into the core-mechanics that cover a lot of cool stuff that really makes your games pop:

Tactical hyperspace micro-jumps, Weapon/Armor manufacture/modding, GOOD cybernetics rules, homesteading/business rules, workshops and fortifications, REALLY good Mass Combat rules, Contact Networks, Gambling - rules for in-game gambling Sabacc, Hintaro, Beefy rules for Slicing (I swear it's almost a lift from Interface Zero's hacking rules, they're good!), and a ton of other stuff.

Quote from: tenbones;969903Okay, one more time from the top - (I should make this a macro for FFG SW threads).

Longtime WEG Star Wars fan here. Love it. Yes it's not perfect. Yes it needs a few houserule tweaks - what game doesn't?

FFG Star Wars Criticisms common to this forum

1) Gimmicky Dice - Yes they are gimmicky. Who gives a fuck. They work consistent with the math behind the system and it works. If you don't like using their dice - feel free to clunk it up and use the conversion chart for normal dice. https://i.warosu.org/data/tg/img/0396/47/1430327598908.png

2) Dice Resolution Mechanic is WEIRD! - Success/Fail, Advantage/Disadvantage, Triumphs/Despair. Three axis. Small numbers. Most of them simply cancel out. This is not advanced math. You rarely go beyond double digits. The symbols are literally color-coded because they only appear on specific dice. This is not rocket science. It's barely more than basic addition and subtraction. The end result is you have Success or Failure in varying degrees. No different than rolling a horde of d6's in WEG's SW and determining how far over your TN was + the Wild Die!

3) Narrative Mechanics! - Common complaint I see over and over and over are the narrative mechanics. The narrative mechanics as such are simply there for use if you indeed *like* using them. As I've said on almost every single FFG thread, this is an invalid criticism because you can simply use the Advantages/Threats as discrete values. HARD NUMBERS WITH HARD RESULTS (oh shit... this is making me hard). I am not a fan of narrative mechanics. If this were even close to being the "narrative game" detractors make it out to be - I wouldn't even be playing it. Oh look - a handy chart. http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-zgLIJX7quU8/Vb6ZaHN2JdI/AAAAAAAAK6w/8iFGfZXDLqQ/s1600/Dice%2BResults.png

4) Cost. Okay you got me here. The books are pricey. But I'm not going to tell you how to spend your money. This is not a reason to shit on the game. This is a business venture where a company is putting out a product. Electing to not buy a product because it costs money, or is beyond your current financial situation to purchase it is not a criticism of the game itself. That said - FFG has put out... a fucking Silhouette 7-sized amount of gaming material that is top-notch in production quality.

5) Money-Grab Release Schedule - I call bullshit on this. They broke up Star Wars along well established options of play that frankly I give him double-credit for. There is *no way* they could drop one book to cover the stuff they've covered. Impossible. It would have been watered down and shitty. And I'm saying this as someone that doesn't even *USE* the books - from any of the three lines - in the era that they assume you're playing in. They took a bold choice (a risky one at that) sticking with Outer-Rim material, and covering it in depth, and moving on to Military then Force users. *Every* major aspect of Star Wars is covered without a single blip in loss of production or writing quality.

6) WEG is better - why do I need this? - You don't. I fully agree you can get all the d6 material out there and play the holy shit out of Star Wars.

New Criticisms!

7) Talent Tree - I agree. Not a big fan. One way to decouple it is to drop Roles and categorize Talents as "abilities" anyone can purchase and re-adjust costs. This would also require changing the skill selection, but ultimately I think it would make a cleaner and more interesting way of playing.

8) Progression - Players start too weak imo. I usually give everyone 1 Free rank in Recruit (1 talent). And/or extra xp. It's easy to regulate progression through XP acquisition - as long as you adjust accordingly.

In recognition of tenbones SME (FFG) status, I will not dispute him (like I have many times in the past). He is a hoopy frood who knows where his towel is at and I will not mock him for liking a different version of Star Wars RPG (even if it is reeking of badwrongfun).

:D

Quote from: jeff37923;969946In recognition of tenbones SME (FFG) status, I will not dispute him (like I have many times in the past). He is a hoopy frood who knows where his towel is at and I will not mock him for liking a different version of Star Wars RPG (even if it is reeking of badwrongfun).

:D

haha you magnanimous bastard!

Quote from: Skarg;969918Tenbones, I've read and appreciated what you've explained about this system (in various past threads - I haven't read all of this thread), and how you could toss a lot of the narrative stuff. However I think that just reading the table you provided, it's clear that something very abstract and non-representational is going on compared to a game where things tend to happen because of the situation. I guess maybe that could be framed as being gamey but not narrative, but I think I'd still want to use some story-related word to describe how the abstract dice are translated via creative interpretation into a description. e.g. The table mentions you can turn a couple of die symbols into spotting blast door control panels, as opposed to a literal spot roll based on the situation. e.g. Another die roll combo lets you ignore environmental modifiers, instead of there needing to be some logical way you could avoid being impaired by a situation. e.g. Another die roll trade lets you give a pal a bonus to their roll, which presumably you make up some reason for it, instead of there actually having to be something you do in play that has some rules to it that make sense about when you could do it and what the effect is. What would be a good term for that, or has someone coined one already? Narrative interpretation of an abstract die roll system?

i.e. it still seems pretty narrative-y to me.

Improv? That's what I call it. And me likes it.

Hey Tenbones, while you're at it...
9) Minions
10) Range Zones

:D

Quote from: CRKrueger;969993Hey Tenbones, while you're at it...
9) Minions
10) Range Zones

:D

/shakes fist.

Okay... /dabs the beads of chi-sweat from his brow  

1 - I concede you have have a POINT.
2 - I am going to rage against that point.

Hear me out, I'll give this a shot.

Minions - OK, if we're going to say Minions are "narrativist" because it abstracts NPC's as "less than PCs" for the narrative effect of letting the PC's fight against gigantic numbers and be heroic, I find this to be little different than mid-level/high-level characters rolling up against hordes of low-HD NPC's/Monsters by direct analogy. The conceit in D&D is that your characters *are* special people that are more than just "standard" folks. By comparison in FFG's system, being skill-based game, leverages the minion-rules to simulate this.

*Second* (and this is probably my strongest argument on this particular issue) - There is a ridiculously easy solution if you don't like Minion rules. *Don't use them*. You can simply make everyone a Rival or Nemesis. Then you have parity (and a much more dangerous and gritty game). I see zero reason why you have to use Minion rules. By not using them you're making the game closer to Cyberpunk 2020 (and that's certainly not a bad thing).


Range Zones - Okay this, I have little defense for. Frankly, games with range-zones have never been an issue for me because in my melon, I just figured it's like FASERIP's "Areas" which is a random distance from melee to 40-yards depending on where the PC is standing. Usually when I have to ballpark this for accuracy, I just resort to D&D-distances or hand-wave it. I get it bugs people, but the solution is to simply do a little bit of elbow grease and establish some hard-ranges and stick to it.

If these two things are the only reasons keeping you from digging this game, I dub thee a true purist. But I also think these are quibbles at best and *easily* resolvable.

That's my take. (you dirty malcontent)

Quote from: sureshot;969159Maybe I'm getting old. Or just don't have time for rpgs that use proprietary dice. I tried to recently read Edge of the Empire and their dice mechanic I just don't get it. I look at the older D6 Star Wars and it seems so much simpler. Fire at a Storm Trooper roll your total of D6s take into account any Wild Die or other modifiers vs difficulty number. That being said the D6 has it flaws.  It may also be why I'm not going to buy the new Star Trek rpg. to me at least it just seems like FFG is trying to hard to be different which sometimes can be a good thing. Yet also complicating matters at the same time.

It's not just you. The game is shit.

Seems harsh for a playable game people are enjoying.

Quote from: Manic Modron;971045Seems harsh for a playable game people are enjoying.

That's just pro forma here.

Quote from: RPGPundit;971028It's not just you. The game is shit.

Much like your opinion. Awesome.

Quote from: RPGPundit;971028It's not just you. The game is shit.

Let me guess. Fantasy Flight Games didn't send you free swag? Eh hem... I mean they didn't send you a free evaluation copy of their game with dice so you could properly review it? :rolleyes:


I suspect this system would not be treated so harshly if they had.

No, he's right. They fucked the dog on this one, and are now in too deep to fix it. The telephone-book sized tomes could be cool if they had a nice balance of system and setting material; each is actually a dense hundreds-of-pages long slog of rules, and they overlap to a ridiculous extent. If you think they are good, spend an hour reading one and then go grab your 1E WEG Star Wars core book. A wave of ecstatic relief will wash over you like a cool and fragrant breeze.

Heh... for a moment I thought that "telephone book sized" was ridiculous hyperbole... but then I remembered how thin the telephone books that get delivered are these days.

I GMed WEG D6 Star Wars off and on for about 25 years. It is the RPG I have run most often. That said I have traded D6 in for FFG Star Wars.


There are faults with how the game is presented.

-Money grab: This game is not cheap. They are milking the Star Wars license for everything they can get out of it. Every book is a hard cover with a lot of modern style art. The dice sets are pricey. Even their smart phone app is pricey for what it is.

-Lay Out: The books are a nightmare to reference. The lay out is very unfriendly for looking anything up in play.



The game itself is fantastic. I ran one Edge of the Empire Campaign that eventually incorporated elements of the Rebellion and Force use for about a year and a half. I have begun a second campaign focusing on the Rebellion.

-NPCs work differently than PCs. I do not see a problem with this. Monsters in older versions of Dungeons and Dragons are set up differently than PCs. So it is with this game. The NPC differences in FFG Star Wars make opponents seem like they do in the movies.

Minions: Have hit points and can soak damage individually. But their abilities are enhanced in groups of like individuals. If you are a soldier type character a Stormtrooper minion by themselves will probably be killed by you in one shot. If you are a non combat focused character same Stormtrooper may take 2-3 attacks to kill. But a squad of a dozen Stormtroopers is a problem even to veteran PCs. There is no point where a squad of stormtroopers becomes totally trivial. This seems like the movies. 1 or 2 stormtroopers is a speed bump. A squad of Stormtroopers has Han and Chewie running through the halls of the Death Star on the defensive.    

Rivals: These are modestly skilled NPCs. They are leaders of squads, cunning merchants, or pilots that give the PCs a run for their money. They don't have access to certain things that PCS have, but are still a threat individually.  An equal number of Rivals to PCs is a heck of a challenge.

Nemesis: This type of NPC is built like a PC. They have access to all of the game subsystems the PCs have. They are usually a threat to multiple PCs by themselves.

Inquisitor: There is a 4th tier in the Force and Destiny line. The Inquisitor can do things that a PC can not. This type of NPC is made to be a major challenge for an entire group of 4-6 PCs single handedly.  

I really do not see how this differs in play from D&D. Let's say you have a group of orcs, their chieftain, and an evil fighter that has pressed the orcs into his service. You would have the equivalent to minions, rival and nemesis. If you are a new PC orcs are a problem. As you level they are less of a problem unless they are in large numbers. This is how it goes with FFG Star Wars. I have had minion groups route groups of veteran PCs on many occasions.


-Range Band: The books actually list what the range bands are in meters for personal scale and starship scale. Almost everyone is either using a blaster or a melee weapons. So you are either fighting with weapons with equivalent ranges or you are engaged in melee. There are no subtle range mismatches to exploit between weapons like their would be in D&D. Their is no short bow vs long bow vs crossbow. There are cases where some weapons reach farther. A Blaster Pistol only gets to short range. A Blaster Rifle can reach Long Range. Range bands speed things up. I already know if a room is within short range band of everyone. Larger rooms may get to medium. Outdoors may involve long and extreme range.  Again the equivalent distance in meters for a range band are given.

The range bands also help in vehicle chases. Getting to a closer range band or trying to open up distance is incorporated into the chase and combat rules. You know immediately if a shot just got easier or harder in a vehicle combat.
 
-"Special Dice": You actually do not need the "special" dice. The game uses D6s, D8s, D12s, and percentile. You build dice pools with those dice. One of the first things in the core book is how to use regular old numeric D6, D8, or D12s. Th "special" dice just make the process visually easier.

What is different than most RPGS is that there are 2 "axis" of things going on when you roll the dice. The first is the magnitude of your success or failure. The second axis is did complications arise, and if so what severity.

Success pips and failure pips cancel each other out. If you have at least one net success pip at the end you pulled off what ever you were trying.

Advantage and Threat pips cancel each other out. If you have net advantage pips in the end something beneficial happens. You might be able to get a critical hit with your weapon, catch extra opponents in a grenade blast, or gain increased access to a computer system during a hack attempt.

If you have net threat pips something bad happens. In the heat of battle your energy clip just ran out of power and needs replacing before you can continue shooting (you did bring extra clips right :D). You hit a coolant line and it sprays mist that obscures your vision on subsequent shots.
 
This extra axis makes "Star Wars movie like" events happen. You need to fix subsystems on your old jury rigged rust bucket of a ship all of a sudden while TIE fighters are chasing you through an asteroid field. Once you gain some experience with quickly analyzing the dice pool results these cinematic quirks happen quickly and can add interesting twists to the situation.

Quote from: Larsdangly;971164No, he's right. They fucked the dog on this one, and are now in too deep to fix it. The telephone-book sized tomes could be cool if they had a nice balance of system and setting material; each is actually a dense hundreds-of-pages long slog of rules, and they overlap to a ridiculous extent. If you think they are good, spend an hour reading one and then go grab your 1E WEG Star Wars core book. A wave of ecstatic relief will wash over you like a cool and fragrant breeze.

Um yeah. There is relief until you get a PC or two with 6 or 7 dice in Dodge. Then they can walk into Stormtrooper barracks and kill everyone with impunity. A PC with the Bounty Hunter Template can start with 6 dice in dodge. I ran many long campaigns using D6 star wars. 1E, 2E and  2E revised. That system has problematic quirks.

A squad of Stormtroopers is a non threat to Seasoned PCs in D6. The same squad has the potential to injure or kill seasoned PCs in FFG Star Wars. That was the breath of fresh air for me.

Quote from: tenbones;970149That's my take. (you dirty malcontent)

Hey, you're the one who made the list, I was just helpin'. :D

I'd argue that in a skill-based game, the easiest way to represent a minion is...well...low skill.  D&D specifically has its own problem with the HP=Skill abstraction leading to "wading through hordes of lesser opponents" ability of high level characters.  However, in most systems where they are used, Minions are specifically not defined as low-skill opponents, but defined as "dramatically unimportant".  It's a minor quibble though. You're right, of course, minion rules can just not be used, and I can ignore the the teeth itch.

You're also right in that traditional ranges can be used, talent trees can be redone, you can give the system the "Only War" treatment, etc.  When you get right down to it, most systems can be wrangled into shape if you put on the hardhat and break out the blowtorch and jackhammer.  At some point , though, you realize you're not at that age anymore where for some miraculous reason you always have unlimited free time and you gotta ask yourself "Is this system worth the amount of work I'm gonna put in?"  Once you know what you have to Cut, Add, Fold, Spindle or Mutilate, what's left for the payoff?

With this system it might be the ship design & combat, crafting system, etc.  It might not.

Considering the cost and level of unconventional mechanics, I'd say this one is definitely a "Borrow or Pirate before you buy".

I do want to check out that fantasy hack.

Quote from: tenbones;969903Okay, one more time from the top . . .

Shine on, you crazy diamond. :)

At the end of the day, I'm not interested in collectible coffee-table rule books so the whole line was a turn-off to me, but for those who like this sort of game, this is definitely the sort of game they'd like.

Interesting, I just saw this: Edge of the Frontier: Western Hack for FFG's Edge of the Empire. (http://www.rpgnow.com/product/210290/Edge-of-the-Frontier)

They release the rules under OGL or Creative Commons or something?

Is there a danger in thinking one system will work for many genres like this? Obviously some systems are designed as 'universal' like GURPS, but are there any games where the system and setting/skin are so intertwined that it wouldn't work with another genre replacing the original?

You guys like beating on a good game do you? The only gripe I have for the fantasy flight games version of star wars, is the core rules being reprinted in all three main core books, otherwise the game plays solid, every dice roll has good and bad elements happening at the same time adding drama to the over all experience, it feels more star wars universe to me, now I still love the d6 west end games version too, and admit I liked Saga d20, but I believe FFG hit it out of the park on this version of star wars, if you don't like it, cool with me, but I do and so does many other gamers, so no Christmas present for all you hates out their.

Quote from: jedimastert;971177Um yeah. There is relief until you get a PC or two with 6 or 7 dice in Dodge. Then they can walk into Stormtrooper barracks and kill everyone with impunity. A PC with the Bounty Hunter Template can start with 6 dice in dodge. I ran many long campaigns using D6 star wars. 1E, 2E and  2E revised. That system has problematic quirks.

A squad of Stormtroopers is a non threat to Seasoned PCs in D6. The same squad has the potential to injure or kill seasoned PCs in FFG Star Wars. That was the breath of fresh air for me.

Well in 1E any hit, even one that is less than the PC's STR roll puts the PC down for the round. If you beyond 1E then you are not using multiple action penalties. Shooting and dodging is at least two actions so dodge is now down to 5D or 6D. And you are not using combined actions. A squad of 10 stormtroopers gives a +4D bonus to their attack which is at least 3D to start. So 7D attack vs. 5D or 6D dodge. So the PC is hit and one stormtrooper goes down. Either the PC burns character points or they probably end up stunned or wounded which probably spells the end of the line for them. Next round the same thing happens. Unless the PC has lots and lots of CPs, running solo against a squad of stormtroopers is a bad strategy.

Quote from: jedimastert;971177Um yeah. There is relief until you get a PC or two with 6 or 7 dice in Dodge. Then they can walk into Stormtrooper barracks and kill everyone with impunity. A PC with the Bounty Hunter Template can start with 6 dice in dodge. I ran many long campaigns using D6 star wars. 1E, 2E and  2E revised. That system has problematic quirks.

A squad of Stormtroopers is a non threat to Seasoned PCs in D6. The same squad has the potential to injure or kill seasoned PCs in FFG Star Wars. That was the breath of fresh air for me.

This is not a system problem as much as it is a GM problem with not knowing small unit tactics or the rules.

Lets just look at a Bounty Hunter with 7 dice in Dodge who is being shot at by a squad of 9 stormtroopers in barracks each with an effective 3D in Blaster (4D skill, -1D for armor Dex penalty). Now for every extra action taken, you have to subtract a die from the skill roll that round. So the Bounty Hunter will roll 7D, 6D, 5D, 4D, 3D, 2D, 1D, 0, and 0 in Dodge against the stormtroopers - so statistically at least one of them (if not more) is going to hit the Bounty Hunter.

Don't like that? Lets look at another version using some ignored rules from the Gamemaster's Toolkit. Behold, the Combined Actions Chart!

Number Combined  Bonus
  1                        --
  2                        1D
  3                        1D+1
  4                        2D
  5                        2D+1
  6                        3D
  7                        3D
  8                        3D+1
  9                        3D+2
  10                       4D
  12                       4D+1
  15                       5D
  25                       6D
  40                       7D
  60                       8D
  100                      9D
  150                      10D
  250                      11D
  400                      12D
  600                      13D
  1000                     14D
  1500                     15D

Take that same squad of 9 stormtroopers in barracks each with an effective 3D in Blaster (4D skill, -1D for armor Dex penalty) shooting at the 7D Dodge Bounty Hunter (we will let the Bounty Hunter use all his Dodge skill dice to defend without dropping 1D for every extra action). The stormtroopers all firing in unison will get 6D+2 against the Bounty Hunter's 7D Dodge, which is still pretty damn good statistically.

This comes about from people not understanding the RAW, much  like the myth of the Blaster-Proof Wookie.

EDIT: And Bren beat me to it....

Quote from: lacercorvex;971286You guys like beating on a good game do you? The only gripe I have for the fantasy flight games version of star wars, is the core rules being reprinted in all three main core books, otherwise the game plays solid, every dice roll has good and bad elements happening at the same time adding drama to the over all experience, it feels more star wars universe to me, now I still love the d6 west end games version too, and admit I liked Saga d20, but I believe FFG hit it out of the park on this version of star wars, if you don't like it, cool with me, but I do and so does many other gamers, so no Christmas present for all you hates out their.

To be fair as the OP I don't hate FFG version of Star Wars. It's just not my cup of tea.

Quote from: jeff37923;971292This is not a system problem as much as it is a GM problem with not knowing small unit tactics or the rules.

Lets just look at a Bounty Hunter with 7 dice in Dodge who is being shot at by a squad of 9 stormtroopers in barracks each with an effective 3D in Blaster (4D skill, -1D for armor Dex penalty). Now for every extra action taken, you have to subtract a die from the skill roll that round. So the Bounty Hunter will roll 7D, 6D, 5D, 4D, 3D, 2D, 1D, 0, and 0 in Dodge against the stormtroopers - so statistically at least one of them (if not more) is going to hit the Bounty Hunter.

Don't like that? Lets look at another version using some ignored rules from the Gamemaster's Toolkit. Behold, the Combined Actions Chart!

Number Combined  Bonus
  1                        --
  2                        1D
  3                        1D+1
  4                        2D
  5                        2D+1
  6                        3D
  7                        3D
  8                        3D+1
  9                        3D+2
  10                       4D
  12                       4D+1
  15                       5D
  25                       6D
  40                       7D
  60                       8D
  100                      9D
  150                      10D
  250                      11D
  400                      12D
  600                      13D
  1000                     14D
  1500                     15D

Take that same squad of 9 stormtroopers in barracks each with an effective 3D in Blaster (4D skill, -1D for armor Dex penalty) shooting at the 7D Dodge Bounty Hunter (we will let the Bounty Hunter use all his Dodge skill dice to defend without dropping 1D for every extra action). The stormtroopers all firing in unison will get 6D+2 against the Bounty Hunter's 7D Dodge, which is still pretty damn good statistically.

This comes about from people not understanding the RAW, much  like the myth of the Blaster-Proof Wookie.

EDIT: And Bren beat me to it....

This is why I like you guys. I can't be bothered to look all this stuff up to explain why the criticism is bogus to begin with.

Quote from: Manic Modron;971168Heh... for a moment I thought that "telephone book sized" was ridiculous hyperbole... but then I remembered how thin the telephone books that get delivered are these days.

They still deliver phone books where you are? Can't remember the last time I got a White Pages. Now and then we get a Yellow Pages but it's about as thick as the 1st edition AD&D DMG. It's too bad, too, because I used to use the White Pages as a source for character names. There used to be a listing for "Fitzgerald, F. Scott & Ella" in the San Diego White Pages!

Not a white pages, I don't think, and it has been a long time since a Yellow Pages.  I think I just looked at it, showed my roommates an artifact of the past struggling to survive and got rid of it.

Quote from: Bren;971289Well in 1E any hit, even one that is less than the PC's STR roll puts the PC down for the round. If you beyond 1E then you are not using multiple action penalties. Shooting and dodging is at least two actions so dodge is now down to 5D or 6D. And you are not using combined actions. A squad of 10 stormtroopers gives a +4D bonus to their attack which is at least 3D to start. So 7D attack vs. 5D or 6D dodge. So the PC is hit and one stormtrooper goes down. Either the PC burns character points or they probably end up stunned or wounded which probably spells the end of the line for them. Next round the same thing happens. Unless the PC has lots and lots of CPs, running solo against a squad of stormtroopers is a bad strategy.

A successful hit with damage below the strength roll only gives a "stun" result. This gives a -1D on action until the next turn. It only incapacitates when there are a number of stuns suffered equals the number of od strength dice you have.

You need to be able to hit first. A full round dodge adds the dodge result to the base number needed to hit someone. A normal reaction dodge the player has the choice of the dodge result or the base number becoming the new number needed to hit. Stormtroopers have 3D Blaster to hit while in their armor.

Good luck when a group of 4 or so veteran PCs are fighting together against them. I did find the exploding wild die of later editions to be helpful.

In D6 when Stormtroopers show up the players saw it as a warm up. In FFG SW when Stormtroopers show up they dive for cover and start formulating an escape plan.

Quote from: jedimastert;971470In D6 when Stormtroopers show up the players saw it as a warm up.

Well, that is understandable with your demonstrable lack of knowledge about RAW.

Quote from: jedimastert;971470In FFG SW when Stormtroopers show up they dive for cover and start formulating an escape plan.

I would too if it led to less interpretive dice rolling when you just need solid yes/no answers.

Quote from: jeff37923;971474Well, that is understandable with your demonstrable lack of knowledge about RAW.

I would too if it led to less interpretive dice rolling when you just need solid yes/no answers.

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/iuxkfe54uh49v7a/Bam.gif?dl=0)

Ok, but seriously though.  Don't you think the capability a high dodge gives you in d6 is a little overpowered?  I mean even combining them we're talking about NINE Stormtroopers having some chance to get ONE hit TOTAL and calling it good.

I think one thing that isn't being discussed is how hard it is to get 7d dodge.  Is that a 7th level character in D&D terms, or is it 17th or 27th level?  That matters.

Quote from: jeff37923;971292This is not a system problem as much as it is a GM problem with not knowing small unit tactics or the rules.

Lets just look at a Bounty Hunter with 7 dice in Dodge who is being shot at by a squad of 9 stormtroopers in barracks each with an effective 3D in Blaster (4D skill, -1D for armor Dex penalty). Now for every extra action taken, you have to subtract a die from the skill roll that round. So the Bounty Hunter will roll 7D, 6D, 5D, 4D, 3D, 2D, 1D, 0, and 0 in Dodge against the stormtroopers - so statistically at least one of them (if not more) is going to hit the Bounty Hunter.

Don't like that? Lets look at another version using some ignored rules from the Gamemaster's Toolkit. Behold, the Combined Actions Chart!

Number Combined  Bonus
  1                        --
  2                        1D
  3                        1D+1
  4                        2D
  5                        2D+1
  6                        3D
  7                        3D
  8                        3D+1
  9                        3D+2
  10                       4D
  12                       4D+1
  15                       5D
  25                       6D
  40                       7D
  60                       8D
  100                      9D
  150                      10D
  250                      11D
  400                      12D
  600                      13D
  1000                     14D
  1500                     15D

Take that same squad of 9 stormtroopers in barracks each with an effective 3D in Blaster (4D skill, -1D for armor Dex penalty) shooting at the 7D Dodge Bounty Hunter (we will let the Bounty Hunter use all his Dodge skill dice to defend without dropping 1D for every extra action). The stormtroopers all firing in unison will get 6D+2 against the Bounty Hunter's 7D Dodge, which is still pretty damn good statistically.

This comes about from people not understanding the RAW, much  like the myth of the Blaster-Proof Wookie.

EDIT: And Bren beat me to it....

Well you conveniently left out how the rest of that chart works. That is the coordinated action chart. You need an NPC with the Command skill present to use that chart. For a group of 10 Stormtroopers (who average 4D Blaster (armor penalty does not affect their base skill level for coordination chart) you need an NPC present to roll a Moderate Command roll. A Moderate check is generally a 15. So most lower end shmucks and the Stormtroopers themselves would not be able to consistently make the required command check to allow them to get those bonus dice.

So unless you have a skilled commander (lets say 4D to 5D Command Skill or higher) with every group of Stormtroopers you will not be getting those bonus dice.

Quote from: jeff37923;971474Well, that is understandable with your demonstrable lack of knowledge about RAW.

Ah good ol' therpgsite.com posters. They never let me down. :D

No need to be defensive. D6 was my preferred system for a long time. I and my players are just enjoying FFG's system a bit more these days.  

Quote from: jeff37923;971474I would too if it led to less interpretive dice rolling when you just need solid yes/no answers.

Oh FFG has some pretty solid yes/no. A Stormtrooper with a blaster rifle is going to do a minimum 10 points of damage to you (and quite possibly a lot more). An average starting human soldier PC would have about 4 soak (damage reduction) and 14 hit points.

Quote from: CRKrueger;971478Ok, but seriously though.  Don't you think the capability a high dodge gives you in d6 is a little overpowered?  I mean even combining them we're talking about NINE Stormtroopers having some chance to get ONE hit TOTAL and calling it good.

I think one thing that isn't being discussed is how hard it is to get 7d dodge.  Is that a 7th level character in D&D terms, or is it 17th or 27th level?  That matters.

I think the way Dodge works when taken in context of an average group of PCs can be a bit much in D6.

6D Dodge is available at character creation depending on the Template chosen. To be fair 7D would take a lot of XP and play time if the GM goes by the recommended XP award guidelines. But in a long campaign 7D and higher Dodge skill is achievable.

Quote from: jedimastert;971481Well you conveniently left out how the rest of that chart works. That is the coordinated action chart. You need an NPC with the Command skill present to use that chart. For a group of 10 Stormtroopers (who average 4D Blaster (armor penalty does not affect their base skill level for coordination chart) you need an NPC present to roll a Moderate Command roll. A Moderate check is generally a 15. So most lower end shmucks and the Stormtroopers themselves would not be able to consistently make the required command check to allow them to get those bonus dice.

So unless you have a skilled commander (lets say 4D to 5D Command Skill or higher) with every group of Stormtroopers you will not be getting those bonus dice.

From page 82  of SW Revised and Expanded. The character in the group with the highest command skill (or Perception attribute) The character in the group with the highest command
skill (or Perception attribute) is the leader. Having points in a command skill helps but is not needed. The higher the Command Skill or Perception Attribute the more people the person can command. In the example they provide on the same page one of the characters has a 8D+2 Command Skill. He can command a maximum of eight characters when leading combined actions. The Arrogant Noble template starts out with 4D in Perception, the Protocol Droid 1D so the first without points in the Command Skill can lead four in a combined action attempt. The Protocol Droid only 1. Points in Command Skill helps but is not needed. Otherwise it would be impossible for many characters to combined actions. That's like saying that a group of kids can't dunk a basketball even if they attempt it as a group unless one is a expert. It helps to have a expert yet the kids can and will dunk the basketball.

Amazing how this thread got so much better once everyone started talking actual rules. :D

Quote from: sureshot;971487From page 82  of SW Revised and Expanded. The character in the group with the highest command skill (or Perception attribute) The character in the group with the highest command
skill (or Perception attribute) is the leader. Having points in a command skill helps but is not needed. The higher the Command Skill or Perception Attribute the more people the person can command. In the example they provide on the same page one of the characters has a 8D+2 Command Skill. He can command a maximum of eight characters when leading combined actions. The Arrogant Noble template starts out with 4D in Perception, the Protocol Droid 1D so the first without points in the Command Skill can lead four in a combined action attempt. The Protocol Droid only 1. Points in Command Skill helps but is not needed. Otherwise it would be impossible for many characters to combined actions. That's like saying that a group of kids can't dunk a basketball even if they attempt it as a group unless one is a expert. It helps to have a expert yet the kids can and will dunk the basketball.

There are differences between Expanded Rule 1E/2E and SW Revised and Expanded. The chart that jeff references is from the earlier editions. How combined actions were used and the max bonus that could be attained were changed in Revised and Expanded.

In the end I kind of preferred 1E. I don't like specializations or being able to use character points (XP) to temporarily boost  skill checks during play. I suspect jeff plays 1E or non expanded 2E.

Thanks jeff37923. You were second to the party but you walked through detailed examples that explains what jedimastert was missing.

Quote from: jedimastert;971470A successful hit with damage below the strength roll only gives a "stun" result. This gives a -1D on action until the next turn. It only incapacitates when there are a number of stuns suffered equals the number of od strength dice you have.

1. You are quoting the rules from 2nd edition or 2nd Revised and Expanded. But I said, "in 1E [1st Edition] any hit, even one that is less than the PC's STR roll puts the PC down for the round." Stun changed in 2nd Edition. What I said is correct for 1E.

2. Full dodge doesn't exist in 1E. In 2E, a full dodge doesn't allow you to attack the stormtroopers. So you can't take them out while doing a full dodge. And they can close on you walking a half move forward and shooting the entire time until they are right next to you. Then most of them keep shooting at you while the other two wait until after your full dodge and hit you with their gun butts. Dodge only works against missile attacks not melee attacks. So they will beat you into submission, then they can shoot you.

QuoteGood luck when a group of 4 or so veteran PCs are fighting together against them. I did find the exploding wild die of later editions to be helpful.

4+ Veteran PCs being able to beat 10 novice stormtroopers is not a fault of the system, it’s the system working correctly. In any realistic situation 4+ very experienced combat veterans are highly likely to defeat 10 fresh-to-the-wars recruits. The stormtrooper stats used are the minimum. Stormtroopers can be considerably tougher. WEG (the publisher) even included this both as a suggestion and with stats in various supplements and adventures--including the Imperial Sourcebook and The Death Star Technical Companion.

Quote from: CRKrueger;971478I think one thing that isn't being discussed is how hard it is to get 7d dodge.  Is that a 7th level character in D&D terms, or is it 17th or 27th level?  That matters.

Its not an answerable question. Some non-human characters can start with a 7D dodge. Some characters will play for dozens of play sessions and never reach that level of proficiency. I played a combat oriented character with a decent Dexterity (3D) and after 10 years and easily over a thousand hours of play I had a 7D dodge.

Also as a GM the character needs to be dodging in some way that makes sense, e.g. diving behind cover, zigzagging across the alley, something. In that context 9-10 people not hitting you is possible. If you are just standing out in the open in a flat and empty field or alley doing the crazy chicken dance, I’m not going to let you do a full dodge unless you can describe what you are doing in a way that makes some sense to me. How strict I’m going to be on what makes sense will be influenced by whether I think you are being an annoying little git. Also see my previous comment dodge working only against missile attacks.

Quote from: jedimastert;971481

1. Stormtroopers are elite troops. They likely have a bonus to following orders or combining actions.
2. A 4D command skill is professional level ability. That is well within the reasonable capabilities of Imperial officers, especially an a member of the elite stormtrooper corps. A 4D command skill on average rolls 14+. The difficulty of a Moderate roll is 11-15 so 15 is the max, not the norm. More often than not a 14 will succeed at a moderate roll. If we give the officer a very reasonable +1D bonus for commanding disciplined stormtroopers this increases to 18 or so which is in the middle of the Difficult range.

Its also worth noting the the stats for an ordinary stormtrooper include 0-5 Character Points. If you want tougher stormtroopers give them a few CPs which they might as well spend them to try and take down those 'Rebel scum.'

Quote from: CRKrueger;971489Amazing how this thread got so much better once everyone started talking actual rules. :D

Funny that. I'm always amazed how seldom people seem to read and remember the rules. If you think there is a flaw in the rules; a huge hole, a gap, some sort of "I win!" button for the PCs; it behooves you as the GM to actually go back and read the rules to make sure you aren't missing something basic as to how the rules were designed to work. I often find that if I do that there is already something in the system that fixes the problem or that the problem occurred due to me misinterpreting or misremembering a rule.


My comment is not aimed at you, Krueger. I'm pretty sure you know this already, I'm just using your post to introduce my point.

I never played 1E. I played from 2E and onward. I a;ways defaulted to the Perception value if no one had the command skill. Anyone can coordinate to do a task. so are better at it.

Quote from: CRKrueger;971489Amazing how this thread got so much better once everyone started talking actual rules. :D

It would be nice if we were talking about rules of the actual game in question.

Can't have everything, I guess.

Quote from: hedgehobbit;971514It would be nice if we were talking about rules of the actual game in question.

Can't have everything, I guess.

But we were....oh wait ....FFG :eek:

BTW, looking at the Talent Trees...Oy vey.  This is much worse than Dark Heresy.  Those Talents do need the Only War treatment, badly.

Range Bands: Light Blaster Pistol, Heavy Blaster Pistol, and Blaster Carbine all have the same range.  Yeah, crap.  Remember this kids, Range Bands never help, they only hurt. :D

Modification System looks pretty good, gives Techies something to do.

Weapons seem like there's not enough granularity.  Armor is the same problem to a much larger extent.  Considering the damage, it's less varied than WFRP1.

Quote from: Bren;971508Thanks jeff37923. You were second to the party but you walked through detailed examples that explains what jedimastert was missing.

I was just verbose where your explanations were succinct.

Quote from: sureshot;971510I never played 1E. I played from 2E and onward. I a;ways defaulted to the Perception value if no one had the command skill. Anyone can coordinate to do a task. so are better at it.

I have played through all of the WEG versions and do prefer the 2E, R&E personally. There is a lot of meat on those bones to use in each version of the game.

As far as FFG handling the license, there is some great stuff that has come out as background for the game. My hat is off to them over the Imperial Raider class Corvette.

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Quote from: jeff37923;971526As far as FFG handling the license, there is some great stuff that has come out as background for the game. My hat is off to them over the Imperial Raider class Corvette.

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[ATTACH=CONFIG]1100[/ATTACH]

Very cool, they have an Armada ship for that yet, or is it just in the RPG?

It;s for X-wing, only $99.00. :eek:

Quote from: CRKrueger;971528Very cool, they have an Armada ship for that yet, or is it just in the RPG?

It;s for X-wing, only $99.00. :eek:

I think that they originally made it for Armada and X-Wing, then branched back to the RPG. Nonetheless, it is a very cool ship.

I found some stats for the ship from the Rancor Pit forum and will repost them as soon as I get permission.

RPG stats for the Raider corvette are in Friends Like These.

Quote from: HappyDaze;971537RPG stats for the Raider corvette are in Friends Like These.

d6 WEG stats?

Quote from: jeff37923;971539d6 WEG stats?

That's an Age of Rebellion adventure, so I assume no. :D
Thanks Happydaze.

So Tenbones or whoever wants to answer:
I know the Force rules are obviously fleshed out the most in Force and Destiny, and each game has a different "Storytelling Stat" Obligation/Duty/Morality.

I assume if you were going to buy one version of the rules, Force and Destiny would be the cleanest version of the basic stuff, having been written/published for the third time?

Quote from: CRKrueger;971518BTW, looking at the Talent Trees...Oy vey.  This is much worse than Dark Heresy.  Those Talents do need the Only War treatment, badly.

Range Bands: Light Blaster Pistol, Heavy Blaster Pistol, and Blaster Carbine all have the same range.  Yeah, crap.  Remember this kids, Range Bands never help, they only hurt. :D

Modification System looks pretty good, gives Techies something to do.

Weapons seem like there's not enough granularity.  Armor is the same problem to a much larger extent.  Considering the damage, it's less varied than WFRP1.

The game needs a second edition to balance out some talent trees as some classes are just hands down better at what other classes can do.

The carbine sucks ass. Period.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;971543The game needs a second edition to balance out some talent trees as some classes are just hands down better at what other classes can do.

The carbine sucks ass. Period.

Also the different game lines all have good stuff to them, but Age of Rebellion is the least useful. A couple of the splats are decent, but a lot of it emphasizes holes in the system like fighter combat rather than fixing them.

Quote from: CRKrueger;971528Very cool, they have an Armada ship for that yet, or is it just in the RPG?

It;s for X-wing, only $99.00. :eek:

Here is a link for the Armada Scale Version (https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/products/star-wars-armada/products/imperial-raider-expansion-pack/)

Looks like it is $19.99.

Quote from: CRKrueger;971542So Tenbones or whoever wants to answer:
I know the Force rules are obviously fleshed out the most in Force and Destiny, and each game has a different "Storytelling Stat" Obligation/Duty/Morality.

I assume if you were going to buy one version of the rules, Force and Destiny would be the cleanest version of the basic stuff, having been written/published for the third time?

Unfortunately it does not work like that. Force and Destiny goes over the morality rules and fleshes out Force users better. It does not have Obligation or Duty rules in it.

The "core" rules of the game are the same in all 3 core books.

One of the big draw backs to this system is the blatant money grab aspect of how the books are set up.

If you want a Han Solo campaign then Edge of the Empire. If you want to be those chumps in the trenches on Hoth, or one of the many Bothans that died getting the Death Star II plans, or Rogue One types there is Age of Rebellion. If you want Jedi/Sith wannabees then Force and Destiny.

Quote from: jedimastert;971547Unfortunately it does not work like that. Force and Destiny goes over the morality rules and fleshes out Force users better. It does not have Obligation or Duty rules in it.

The "core" rules of the game are the same in all 3 core books.


One of the big draw backs to this system is the blatant money grab aspect of how the books are set up.

Yeah, I meant I knew those specific rules were unique, sorry if that wasn't clear.
For all the rules that aren't unique, does F&D have the most cleaned up version?

Quote from: jeff37923;971539d6 WEG stats?

 The Imperial Raider (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Raider-class_corvette) is a Corvette class ship. Looks to be slightly larger and better armed than a Corellian Corvette. It should not be hard to convert using the Corellian Corvette as a base line.


Edit: Sorry I missed that you found stats at the Rancor Pit Forum.

Quote from: CRKrueger;971550Yeah, I meant I knew those specific rules were unique, sorry if that wasn't clear.
For all the rules that aren't unique, does F&D have the most cleaned up version?

As far as I can tell it is effectively a copy and paste job from Edge of the Empire and Age of Rebellion.

My players use all 3 core books interchangeably to look up non unique rules.

Quote from: CRKrueger;971542So Tenbones or whoever wants to answer:
I know the Force rules are obviously fleshed out the most in Force and Destiny, and each game has a different "Storytelling Stat" Obligation/Duty/Morality.

I assume if you were going to buy one version of the rules, Force and Destiny would be the cleanest version of the basic stuff, having been written/published for the third time?

The basic core rules are the same. However, each line is heavily inflected with gear/ship options relating directly to the line's emphasis. So I wouldn't say Force and Destiny is the cleanest version unless you want to run a game heavily leaning on the needs of Force users (Jedi armor, etc). *I*, if I had to pick one of the three as the "cleanest" version would go with Edge of the Empire.

Mainly because it has all your workhorse ships, gear, classes that make up the vast majority of the galaxy.

Quote from: CRKrueger;971550Yeah, I meant I knew those specific rules were unique, sorry if that wasn't clear.
For all the rules that aren't unique, does F&D have the most cleaned up version?

I don't think there is any actual difference in the core rules. I'd have to sit down and do a side-by-side.

If you're so inclined - use this

FFG Star Wars Index
http://swrpg.viluppo.net/

It's an online index of all the stats for various things found within all the books.

Force and Destiny did offer some minor clarifications and rewrites on problematic skill overlaps in Cool/Discipline and Perception/Vigilance, but the clarifications still aren't that good for really placing a firm line between the skill divides.

Force and Destiny also provides many species that are fairly rare in the galaxy during the reign of the Empire, which might make keeping a low profile harder.

Quote from: HappyDaze;971654Force and Destiny did offer some minor clarifications and rewrites on problematic skill overlaps in Cool/Discipline and Perception/Vigilance, but the clarifications still aren't that good for really placing a firm line between the skill divides.

That's true but they also left a bunch of rules that had been FAQed unchanged from EotE. That disappointed me and I never bought the Jedi book (that and the fact that I hate how Jedi are defined by their "lightsaber style". Which is silly)

Of course, the Cool/Discipline thing reminds me of how some character are more likely to win Initiative if they walk around blindfolded. An annoying thing that isn't all that easy to fix, unlike the other problem with Initiative in that a gunfighter build in the party let's your heavy weapons dude go first in combat.

BTW, Tenbones, you're a Savage Worlds Sensei, why didn' t you use SW for SW? :D

Quote from: CRKrueger;971719BTW, Tenbones, you're a Savage Worlds Sensei, why didn' t you use SW for SW? :D

That is an excellent question!

The answer is $imple. $ee, one of the i$$ues of playing FFG's $tar War$ game i$ that it require$ an investment of time and other "thing$" that I would feel remi$$ if I ignored that reality. $o I accept that I could use Savage Worlds, but those inve$tment$ would leave me feeling guilty looking at all tho$e FFG book$ $itting there.

It'll happen one day.

Quote from: tenbones;971789That is an excellent question!

The answer is $imple. $ee, one of the i$$ues of playing FFG's $tar War$ game i$ that it require$ an investment of time and other "thing$" that I would feel remi$$ if I ignored that reality. $o I accept that I could use Savage Worlds, but those inve$tment$ would leave me feeling guilty looking at all tho$e FFG book$ $itting there.

It'll happen one day.

Rofl, fair enough.  "Goddamn it, I bought all this stuff, I'm gonna use it, period."  I've been there, it can be a pretty good incentive to roll up the sleeves and get to system-wrangling, especially when there's enough you like to start.

Quote from: hedgehobbit;971717That's true but they also left a bunch of rules that had been FAQed unchanged from EotE. That disappointed me and I never bought the Jedi book (that and the fact that I hate how Jedi are defined by their "lightsaber style". Which is silly)

You have nicked an artery of the FFG game that will cleave very close to an issue I personally, as well as others in my circles, have lamented about in the WEG version. Playing a Jedi sucks until it doesn't*. Let me elaborate.

NO "Jedi" is merely one of these specializations. That's what those lightsaber styles have to come be represented in the Specializations. I, personally, didn't at first glance like this setup either. But I understand it after running it why they did it this way. Especially once you realize that most of the force users in the movies and expanded universe would likely have many of these Specializations fully owning all of the Talents in that tree. The difference is FFG acknowledges this by giving you some hard-fast rules for playing a fleshed out Jedi Knight (Knight Rules) - which is tantamount to starting out with 150XP.

I would argue that even this isn't enough. By the standards of what most people consider a "Jedi" - this 150XP is really closer to being a Padawan. My memory might be sketchy, but I don't recall WEG ever doing this implicitly (though they might have). Most of the high-powered Jedi and Sith in the movies were 1500XP characters.

So the fighting styles being "types" of Jedi is not really accurate. Those styles are sub-specializations of types of Jedi/Sith writ-large. A fully realized Jedi Knight - circa Luke in Return of the Jedi, is likely several of these specializations.

Quote from: hedgehobbit;971717Of course, the Cool/Discipline thing reminds me of how some character are more likely to win Initiative if they walk around blindfolded. An annoying thing that isn't all that easy to fix, unlike the other problem with Initiative in that a gunfighter build in the party let's your heavy weapons dude go first in combat.

/agreed. A couple of skills don't need to exist. Some need to be broken out a bit more. And it's Cool/Vigilance - not Discipline. I get what they're going for (Cool is for people that are not paying attention overtly, and simply react. Vigilance is for people that say overtly they're "keeping alert"). I dunno about being blindfolded and the GM not giving some Setback dice for it... but whatever, like you said, it's easily fixed.

Quote from: CRKrueger;971792Rofl, fair enough.  "Goddamn it, I bought all this stuff, I'm gonna use it, period."  I've been there, it can be a pretty good incentive to roll up the sleeves and get to system-wrangling, especially when there's enough you like to start.

I already have a fairly robust Savage Star Wars hack in hand. Someday that trigger will be pulled. I SWEAR IT.

This might be relevant (https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2017/6/27/genesys/) to people who like the system.

Well shit on two fronts.

1) I've been debating all you louts that this system doesn't have to be "narrative" - and these fucko's go an name the system "The Narrative System"... (it still doesn't need to be run AS a narrative system)

2) Now my torrid affair with Savage Worlds might have competition when I'm feeling like "dirty crunch-love". So dirty... so crunchy.

/writes letter to his ex-girlfriend d20. "My dear. Find another. I'm never coming back. I'll always be your friend. Tenbones"

Quote from: Krimson;971827This might be relevant (https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2017/6/27/genesys/) to people who like the system.

Very very excited for this!

I'm on my phone or I'd link a video, but for those who don't like the system it is a perfect opportunity to quote "Genesis allowed is not!" From Star Trek.

Quote from: CRKrueger;971247Interesting, I just saw this: Edge of the Frontier: Western Hack for FFG's Edge of the Empire. (http://www.rpgnow.com/product/210290/Edge-of-the-Frontier)

They release the rules under OGL or Creative Commons or something?

Last check FFG had not. So someone ganked the rules.

Quote from: CRKrueger;971541That's an Age of Rebellion adventure, so I assume no. :D
Thanks Happydaze.

I'm pretty sure there's a conversion or two over on the Rancor Pit (http://www.rancorpit.com/forums/).

Quote from: AaronBrown99;971840Very very excited for this!

If I had a group to play FFG Star Wars with, then I would totally invest in the books. There's even a ruleset someone made for Fantasy Grounds I think so I could try running it. But without a group I live little motivation to spend that much on something I'll only read. If I can get this in one tome, then it's more likely to be something I would purchase, though at my FLGS because shipping from the US nearly costs as much as the book itself these days.

Quote from: tenbones;971795I would argue that even this isn't enough. By the standards of what most people consider a "Jedi" - this 150XP is really closer to being a Padawan. My memory might be sketchy, but I don't recall WEG ever doing this implicitly (though they might have). Most of the high-powered Jedi and Sith in the movies were 1500XP characters.

WEG never did, by the time that The Phantom Menace came out where we see the Jedi at their height for the first time, WEG was already in deep financial trouble. However, by digging through a treasure trove of fan made d6 Star Wars material recently, there have been some corrections to characters and templates that reflect the increased power of a Padawan or full Jedi Knight.

Quote from: tenbones;971832Well shit on two fronts.

1) I've been debating all you louts that this system doesn't have to be "narrative" - and these fucko's go an name the system "The Narrative System"... (it still doesn't need to be run AS a narrative system)

We were just humoring you.  It was written by Jay Little for fuck's sake. :D

Quote from: tenbones;9718322) Now my torrid affair with Savage Worlds might have competition when I'm feeling like "dirty crunch-love". So dirty... so crunchy.

/writes letter to his ex-girlfriend d20. "My dear. Find another. I'm never coming back. I'll always be your friend. Tenbones"

Savage Worlds is crunchy? ;)
You're not fooling anyone, btw, you and FantasyCraft will always be on the down low.

Quote from: CRKrueger;971903We were just humoring you.  It was written by Jay Little for fuck's sake. :D

I feel red-pilled. Fuck it. I'm still not playing it that way. I hereby coin a new term - Badrightfun!

Quote from: CRKrueger;971903Savage Worlds is crunchy? ;)
You're not fooling anyone, btw, you and FantasyCraft will always be on the down low.

I meant that FFG is crunchy. She's my sidegirl while I'm with Savage Worlds. They don't hate one another, they don't judge. Unlike d20.

... and Fantasycraft? Yeah... we're taking a break.

FFG produces dice-gimmick board games with rpg micro-settings.

Quote from: RPGPundit;972404FFG produces dice-gimmick board games with rpg micro-settings.

Which blows your shit away.

Call it trash all you want, just comes across as sour apples.

Quote from: tenbones;971795/agreed. A couple of skills don't need to exist. Some need to be broken out a bit more. And it's Cool/Vigilance - not Discipline. I get what they're going for (Cool is for people that are not paying attention overtly, and simply react. Vigilance is for people that say overtly they're "keeping alert"). I dunno about being blindfolded and the GM not giving some Setback dice for it... but whatever, like you said, it's easily fixed.

No, it is Cool/Discipline that I'm talking about because I'm not talking about initiative. Both Cool and Discipline refer to overcoming stress and emotional influences, and the line between them is very blurry.

And as far as initiative goes, your descriptions are the opposite of what FFG says. Cool is for going into a fight prepared while Vigilance is for when you stumble into a fight unprepared (though a good Vigilance means you end up being more prepared than some others).

Quote from: Warboss Squee;972413Which blows your shit away.

Call it trash all you want, just comes across as sour apples.

Is that the same as sour grapes?

I don't think so. Sour apple is a commonly seen flavor of candy, while sour grapes is far less appreciated.

Quote from: HappyDaze;972592I don't think so. Sour apple is a commonly seen flavor of candy, while sour grapes is far less appreciated.

Or I fucked up my idiom.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;972593Or I fucked up my idiom.

Just remember that sour grapes make the best whine.....

Quote from: Warboss Squee;972413Which blows your shit away.

Call it trash all you want, just comes across as sour apples.

Do you think he's really just upset that FFG sells better than him?

Pundy has an amazing ability to criticize other games, usually because they include things he doesn't like as opposed to them actually being poor examples of what the designers were trying to achieve. And I can get criticizing him for that. I'm not sure, however, that I can get behind him getting more flack for that because he's produced gaming products than if he hadn't. He's done more heavy lifting in the game production field than I'll pretend I'll ever bother to do. That doesn't make his opinion any more valid than anyone else's, but it also doesn't make it less so either.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;972777Do you think he's really just upset that FFG sells better than him?

Pundy has an amazing ability to criticize other games, usually because they include things he doesn't like as opposed to them actually being poor examples of what the designers were trying to achieve. And I can get criticizing him for that. I'm not sure, however, that I can get behind him getting more flack for that because he's produced gaming products than if he hadn't. He's done more heavy lifting in the game production field than I'll pretend I'll ever bother to do. That doesn't make his opinion any more valid than anyone else's, but it also doesn't make it less so either.

Dark Albion , minus all the typos and poor grammar, is a good book full of useful information. But that doesn't mean I care what RPGPundit thinks about anything. Sometimes he has an interesting insight or critique, but mostly it just seems to be "any deviation from D&D mechanics is bad." Also, he lost a lot of credibility with me when he claimed Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas was the best American novel of the 20th Century and Tombstone was the best Western movie of all time. Now I just assume he hasn't read much or seen many movies or has seriously flawed critical skills. Then again, he thinks "magick" is real so why does anyone take him seriously at all?

Quote from: Dumarest;972813Dark Albion , minus all the typos and poor grammar, is a good book full of useful information. But that doesn't mean I care what RPGPundit thinks about anything.

I agree. His books should be a neutral factor, which I did not take away from the comment I was responding to.

Quote from: Dumarest;972813Then again, he thinks "magick" is real so why does anyone take him seriously at all?

Because sheeple?

Quote from: Bren;972849Because sheeple?

Had to look that up; that's a new one for me. :p

Quote from: Willie the Duck;972777Pundy has an amazing ability to criticize other games, usually because they include things he doesn't like as opposed to them actually being poor examples of what the designers were trying to achieve. And I can get criticizing him for that. I'm not sure, however, that I can get behind him getting more flack for that because he's produced gaming products than if he hadn't. He's done more heavy lifting in the game production field than I'll pretend I'll ever bother to do. That doesn't make his opinion any more valid than anyone else's, but it also doesn't make it less so either.

Bear in mind that Pundit uses the "popularity" of his own games to claim victory in arguments. Here's a recent example. (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?37006-Anyone-Else-Here-Run-a-Long-Term-non-Fantasy-Western-Campaign/page5&p=969492#post969492) Whether you agree or disagree with that premise, there is a degree of "hoist by your own petard" here. He also frequently uses the popularity of 5E vs. 4E D&D to make claims about which one is the superior game. If you want to claim that popularity proves you right, then it's hypocritical when you turn around and claim that the popularity of FFG's games is irrelevant.

"We are all hypocrites. We cannot see ourselves or judge ourselves the way we see and judge others."

- José Emilio Pacheco,  Battles in the Desert and Other Stories

Quote from: S'mon;969226White Star looks to do Star Wars great... :D  ...probably not as great as 1e WEG d6 Star Wars though!

And therein lies my problem. I still have all of my old WEG Star Wars stuff and I honestly own almost everything they published for it. I enjoyed the system a great deal when I ran it. If ever I wanted to get back into it, those books would come out of storage. As a for the record sort of thing - I have heard some good things about FFG's version from younger players, like my nephew. I guess grognards gonna grognard.

the only thing that bugged me about the rules was the inconsistency.

So for instance, you don't generally make opposed rolls except when you do. In combat you might think it would be an opposed roll - base the difficulty dice on the target's stats for example - but it isn't.

It's not a problem as it's simpler, but it is a bit inconsistent.

I do find their business model a pain in the ass. I don't need a book for EVERY FUCKING CLASS, never mind a release schedule so slow the jurassic age could catch up to it. And of course each book contains new races, gear, ships, blah di blah. It's a shit model; i don't want a massive back breaking collection of books and players won't be buying them either.

Quote from: Harlock;972927And therein lies my problem. I still have all of my old WEG Star Wars stuff and I honestly own almost everything they published for it. I enjoyed the system a great deal when I ran it. If ever I wanted to get back into it, those books would come out of storage. As a for the record sort of thing - I have heard some good things about FFG's version from younger players, like my nephew. I guess grognards gonna grognard.

That's one of the nice thing about newer gamers. They come to the table without decades of bias and baggage and just want to play without any need to pick apart the system because it's all new to them.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;972918Bear in mind that Pundit uses the "popularity" of his own games to claim victory in arguments. Here's a recent example. (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?37006-Anyone-Else-Here-Run-a-Long-Term-non-Fantasy-Western-Campaign/page5&p=969492#post969492) Whether you agree or disagree with that premise, there is a degree of "hoist by your own petard" here. He also frequently uses the popularity of 5E vs. 4E D&D to make claims about which one is the superior game. If you want to claim that popularity proves you right, then it's hypocritical when you turn around and claim that the popularity of FFG's games is irrelevant.

I had not made that connection. I cede the point.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;972918Bear in mind that Pundit uses the "popularity" of his own games to claim victory in arguments. Here's a recent example. (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?37006-Anyone-Else-Here-Run-a-Long-Term-non-Fantasy-Western-Campaign/page5&p=969492#post969492) Whether you agree or disagree with that premise, there is a degree of "hoist by your own petard" here. He also frequently uses the popularity of 5E vs. 4E D&D to make claims about which one is the superior game. If you want to claim that popularity proves you right, then it's hypocritical when you turn around and claim that the popularity of FFG's games is irrelevant.

This guy here?

He fucking gets it.

Quote from: HappyDaze;972419And as far as initiative goes, your descriptions are the opposite of what FFG says. Cool is for going into a fight prepared while Vigilance is for when you stumble into a fight unprepared (though a good Vigilance means you end up being more prepared than some others).

yeah I got them reversed. Hazards of posting without the references near me.

Quote from: Biscuitician;972998the only thing that bugged me about the rules was the inconsistency.

So for instance, you don't generally make opposed rolls except when you do. In combat you might think it would be an opposed roll - base the difficulty dice on the target's stats for example - but it isn't.

I'm not following. You make opposed rolls when taking an action directly against an opponent. So melee, social interactions, etc. But for ranged combat - you use standardized Range difficulties of 2 (modified for range and circumstance and gear). Beyond those differences, assembling the die-pool and resolution is the same. Do you have a specific set of examples?

Quote from: Biscuitician;972998I do find their business model a pain in the ass. I don't need a book for EVERY FUCKING CLASS, never mind a release schedule so slow the jurassic age could catch up to it. And of course each book contains new races, gear, ships, blah di blah. It's a shit model; i don't want a massive back breaking collection of books and players won't be buying them either.

I'm calling polite bullshit on this. They very specifically have targeted specific aspects of the game through three separate lines covering a massive amount of ground. You *can't* put this all into one book, or three, or even a dozen. *Right now* - you could run any kind of Star Wars game in any era, or better - make up your own version of it with zero difficulty. Honestly, you could run years worth of games with any single Core book - with the assumption your campaign is centered around that kind of play. There are distinct assumptions about each line and that has to be taken into consideration before you play, though all of them are perfectly mechanically compatible.

They could end this line and lose the license right now and the totality of what they have produced will easily stand next to other editions of the game with ease.

Now if it's the monetary investment as the actual problem... I can't help ya there, they are pricey. Ain't gonna lie.

Kind of diggin' the equipment modification rules.  Though Tenbones you have to tell me how 12 for every race's attributes just allocated differently isn't as mind-numbingly banal is it seems. :D

Quote from: CRKrueger;973865Kind of diggin' the equipment modification rules.  Though Tenbones you have to tell me how 12 for every race's attributes just allocated differently isn't as mind-numbingly banal is it seems. :D

As opposed to D&D's bonii to stats, Shadowrun's stat allotment and whatever the fuck WoD does these days?

I'd say the FFG attribute set-up is average in comparison.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;973879As opposed to D&D's bonii to stats, Shadowrun's stat allotment and whatever the fuck WoD does these days?

I'd say the FFG attribute set-up is average in comparison.

That average seems pretty low...

So isit like the only mechanical differences between human, jawa, and wookie are arrangement of stats that all add to 12 for balance reasons?

Quote from: Skarg;973883That average seems pretty low...

So isit like the only mechanical differences between human, jawa, and wookie are arrangement of stats that all add to 12 for balance reasons?

Sure. But a 3 in a stat as opposed to a 2 is a pretty big difference.

Quote from: tenbones;973776I'm not following. You make opposed rolls when taking an action directly against an opponent. So melee, social interactions, etc. But for ranged combat - you use standardized Range difficulties of 2 (modified for range and circumstance and gear). Beyond those differences, assembling the die-pool and resolution is the same. Do you have a specific set of examples?



I'm calling polite bullshit on this. They very specifically have targeted specific aspects of the game through three separate lines covering a massive amount of ground. You *can't* put this all into one book, or three, or even a dozen. *Right now* - you could run any kind of Star Wars game in any era, or better - make up your own version of it with zero difficulty. Honestly, you could run years worth of games with any single Core book - with the assumption your campaign is centered around that kind of play. There are distinct assumptions about each line and that has to be taken into consideration before you play, though all of them are perfectly mechanically compatible.

They could end this line and lose the license right now and the totality of what they have produced will easily stand next to other editions of the game with ease.

Now if it's the monetary investment as the actual problem... I can't help ya there, they are pricey. Ain't gonna lie.

What i'm saying is that in combat melee difficulty is just an arbitrary fixed couple of difficulty dice. The target's abilities have no bearing on that. Same with ranged combat, though it depends on the range instead.

Yet in other situations you are asked to base the number of difficulty dice on the opposing character's stats.

Now obiously this is done for simplicity since combat is always a headfuck. BUt it is inconsistent - whether it's an issue is a matter for you in play. While i like the dice (i'm a sucker for gimmicks) it only works this way because of this system.

I'm not asking them to put the entirety into one book. I have no problem with the first two books being separate as separate propositions: smugglers then rebels. But Force and Destiny just doesn't need to be a separate book and game line.

I can't be bothered with buying all these books and carrying them around to sessions on the off chance my player group would be committed enough to want to read through ALL the options they present is a tall order IMO. Again YMMV.

I had exactly the same problem with 40k. In fact i still have a ton weight of Rogue Trader books I never even finished!

Maybe someone can explain FFG dice mechanic on which dice cancel other dice out. I think that is the main stumbling block for me.

misses cancel hits
threats cancel advantages

triumph and despair always confuse me.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;973879As opposed to D&D's bonii to stats, Shadowrun's stat allotment and whatever the fuck WoD does these days?

I'd say the FFG attribute set-up is average in comparison.

New D&D and SR you mean, and yeah any game that balances Wookies and Ewoks, Noldor and Hobbits, etc. to make sure they have the same number of bonuses and penalties is mind-numbingly banal.  

Balance should be achieved through setting, not system, and ultimately is the GM's job.

I also like the way they do starships though. :D

So there's definitely Wheat here, I just have to decide if it's worth the threshing.

Quote from: Biscuitician;973960misses cancel hits
threats cancel advantages

Correct.

Quote from: Biscuitician;973960triumph and despair always confuse me.

They aren't affected by anything other than numbers, if you have more of one type than the other.

Quote from: tenbones;973776I'm not following. You make opposed rolls when taking an action directly against an opponent. So melee, social interactions, etc.

That's not correct. Melee always uses a base Difficulty 2, whether you're swinging to hit a master of melee combat or uncle Owen. There are Talents that adjust this, like Defensive Stance and/or Dodge for PCs or Adversary for NPCs, but neither the Agility nor the Melee skill of the target matters at all. Social rolls are resisted--except when they're not. A typical use of Coercion is resisted with Willpower/Discipline, but a use of Coercion with the Scathing Tirade Talent ignores the target's Willpower/Discipline and always uses Difficulty 2. It appears that Talents like Nobody's Fool apply to the fixed Difficulty tests (like Scathing Tirade), but some question it.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;973967They aren't affected by anything other than numbers, if you have more of one type than the other.

A Triumph is both a Success and a Special Good Thing.
A Despair is both a Failure and a Special Bad Thing.

The Success and Failure aspects of those symbols cancel as normal, either from each other or from Success/Failure results on other dice. The Special Good/Bad Thing portions of the Triumph/Despair do not cancel each other.

Quote from: HappyDaze;973969A Triumph is both a Success and a Special Good Thing.
A Despair is both a Failure and a Special Bad Thing.

The Success and Failure aspects of those symbols cancel as normal, either from each other or from Success/Failure results on other dice. The Special Good/Bad Thing portions of the Triumph/Despair do not cancel each other.

That's what I meant, sorry.  I wasn't clear enough.

Success results are canceled by Failure results.
Advantage results are canceled by Threat results.

Triumphs and Despair are tricky. They do two things.
1. They count as Success or Failure.  Those Successes and Failure count as normal, and can be canceled like any other. So  if I roll One Success, One Triumph and 3 Despair, that means overall 1 Failure.

2. They have a Special Effect that cannot be canceled.  So if I roll some Successes, Advantages and Triumphs, but 1 Despair, I can blow the head off a Trandoshan Bounty Hunter peeking around a corner at night from max range, but my gun still jams, or whatever.

Quote from: Biscuitician;972998the only thing that bugged me about the rules was the inconsistency.

So for instance, you don't generally make opposed rolls except when you do. In combat you might think it would be an opposed roll - base the difficulty dice on the target's stats for example - but it isn't.

It's not a problem as it's simpler, but it is a bit inconsistent.

It's only not a problem if you don't mind the abilities of a target being irrelevant to how hard it is to hit, or not. That distinction is probably the #1 reason I stopped being satisfied with TFT (albeit only after several years of play).

But maybe I don't know enough about the full system - for example, surely there must be SOMETHING that represents at least the ability of good prequel-style Jedi to parry lots of blaster shots? Hopefully they also have SOMETHING to make some difference in how hard it is to hit more skilled targets? Hopefully that something is NOT just piles of hit points?

Quote from: Skarg;973974It's only not a problem if you don't mind the abilities of a target being irrelevant to how hard it is to hit, or not.

Why would the target's abilities matter in a ranged attack, aside from super-powers?

Quote from: AaronBrown99;973998Why would the target's abilities matter in a ranged attack, aside from super-powers?

The same reasons that veteran soldiers often avoid getting to know green replacements in serious wartime - because they're vastly more likely to behave in ways that get them killed compared to veterans. Situational awareness, always reading a situation for threats, habitually being in places where you're not exposed, having your gear ready, managing fields of fire, knowing how to expose as little of yourself as possible, or to keep moving until not exposed, effectively using suppressing fire, watching out for each other, having appropriate habits and reflexes, developing instincts that something's about to happen, reacting immediately in appropriate ways to danger, etc.

Ever play or watch dodge ball when some of the class is good at it and some of the class doesn't care or has no skill?

Yes but at the point of shot none of those things matter.

Quote from: AaronBrown99;974004Yes but at the point of shot none of those things matter.

Yes, they do. Blaster fire is SLOW. I've seen different calculations, but dodging blaster bolts from blaster rifles is about liking dodging a thrown baseball. From ten feet away it'll be nearly impossible for all but those with superhuman abilities, but at 100 yards even normal people can avoid a hit. At the very least, an observant target can turn a lethal shot into a glancing hit. That's why the target's abilities should come into play.

A quick Google search pops up with a result of 15 meters per second for speed. Here's another answer: https://www.wired.com/2012/05/star-wars-blaster-speed/ (https://www.wired.com/2012/05/star-wars-blaster-speed/)

Quote from: AaronBrown99;974004Yes but at the point of shot none of those things matter.

It does if your game system doesn't take into account any of those factors in other ways. If at the point of shot, your target is dodging or isn't visible because he was alert enough to see you coming and take cover or get in a position where he or his comrade actually has the drop on you, then hopefully the game has some way to represent that. The skilled people are managing space so that they aren't the one standing out in the open - Goofus the Recruit is.

Quote from: AaronBrown99;973998Why would the target's abilities matter in a ranged attack, aside from super-powers?

Because a ranged attack in this system does not represent just one shot. It represents several shots taken over a short span of time. A target that is not restrained is assumed to be moving, so practice in moving unpredictably and making best use of available cover should  count for something.

On the upside, there are talents that combat inclined players can get that boost defense vs ranged and melee combat. Downside is that defensive dice tend to suck major choad when compared to the other die types.

Thanks for the clarifications, that makes sense given the setting.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;974013On the upside, there are talents that combat inclined players can get that boost defense vs ranged and melee combat. Downside is that defensive dice tend to suck major choad when compared to the other die types.

Not only that, but those talents are not available to everyone, not even through many of the most heavily combat-based specializations. Even when they are, they usually cost a maneuver to use and then cost Strain on top of that. Because of this, the optimal solution is often to simply try to push Soak as high as possible through Brawn, armor, and the Enduring talent. When done well, a Soak of 7+ is quite possible. This laughs off most pistols and takes much of the sting out of rifles too.

There's also the issue that the game designers can't come up with a ruling on how Defense (a quality of its own) stacks. You can get Defense from several sources (armor, cover, some weapons, certain talents), but the rules on how it stacks suck ass and we've been waiting for over 3 years to try and get a clarification. As an example, right now, having one rank of Defensive Training will actually hurt you if you wield a weapon with Defensive 2 because the talent rank replaces that of the weapon whether it's higher or lower. The idea that knowing how to use a weapon defensively is counterproductive when using a weapon made for that purpose is so fucking stupid it hurts.

I call BS on claiming that FFG had to three books for their rpg line. Looking through both versions of Star Wars D6 Second edition Revised and Expanded and just the regular Second Edition. Both books had rules for Force Users. One could buy other Force related Sourcebooks.

Yet they are not needed imo. FFG model is a cash grab pure and simple. Which I don't mind because  no one is forcing me to buy one or all three. Let's also not pretend it's anything but. Their 40K rpgs were notorious for being full of reprint. " this is a bolter and what it does. We already mentioned it three times in three different core books just in case you forget here it a fourth time.

I also want to thank all here who tried to explain the dice mechanic to me. I guess it's not for me. I should understand and maybe if they kept the dice all one shape
It might be easier. Or like I said in my OP maybe you can't teach some older gamers new rpgs.

Pretty sure they could have had one main rulebook and then supplements to cover the other specialties.

In the 40k line Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader, Deathwatch, Black Crusade, and Only War all had unique mechanics, updated core rules and errata and different power scales that arguably necessitated separate Core Rulebooks.

From what people are saying here, it's basically a Cut-n-Paste job for most of the Core Rules.  There's no need or excuse for that.

I have to disagree about the new material in the 40K requiring seperate books 70-80% of it was rehash. With 20-30% being new. They were the fastest core books I ever read because they mostly copy and paste.

Quote from: CRKrueger;974377Pretty sure they could have had one main rulebook and then supplements to cover the other specialties.

In the 40k line Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader, Deathwatch, Black Crusade, and Only War all had unique mechanics, updated core rules and errata and different power scales that arguably necessitated separate Core Rulebooks.

From what people are saying here, it's basically a Cut-n-Paste job for most of the Core Rules.  There's no need or excuse for that.

It wouldn't have mattered had those rules not been a bloated unholy mess. Had the rules been simpler it wouldn't have mattered.

Even though the SW games have the same issue they each feel complete. The 40k books were far FAR from complete.

Quote from: sureshot;974371I call BS on claiming that FFG had to three books for their rpg line. Looking through both versions of Star Wars D6 Second edition Revised and Expanded and just the regular Second Edition. Both books had rules for Force Users. One could buy other Force related Sourcebooks.

If you take out all of the redundant rules, and only included the gear, sub-systems, between all three core-books it would be a 10lb book thicker than my arm. As the owner of the entire line, and someone not prone to burning my money for zero reason, each line emphasizes an entirely different aspect of the Star Wars universe. You don't *need* the other books from the other lines unless you're integrating those elements.

If you want to play straight-up Alliance vs. Empire - you don't need Edge of F&D at all. Likewise all the way around. F&D is specifically for in-depth Force-sensitives with training and it covers it in more depth than the d6 Sourcebooks as related to what specifically it is that these people do in relation to their training. Granted a lot of it has to do with interaction of the mechanics. You certainly couldn't "just put this" into Edge/AoR and say - here you go.

Quote from: sureshot;974371Yet they are not needed imo. FFG model is a cash grab pure and simple. Which I don't mind because  no one is forcing me to buy one or all three. Let's also not pretend it's anything but. Their 40K rpgs were notorious for being full of reprint. " this is a bolter and what it does. We already mentioned it three times in three different core books just in case you forget here it a fourth time.

So the reprint is minimal. Skills and basic gear mostly. Very few classes are reprinted (and even those are slightly different). I don't own any of the 40k books... so I can't compare. Most of the gearlists aside from the basic stuff common to Star Wars, contains a lot of gear specific to the line. Edge people don't have access to top-of-the-line military spec-stuff (though most basic weapons don't diverge far from them) and likewise their ships tend to be very different. Likewise with Force sensitives. So even the gear lists are tweaked for each line specifically.

If by cash-grab you mean the company needs to make money at the expense of quality - I'd highly disagree. I will even more highly disagree you could roll all three lines into one big book even more. Because the production costs would drive the price far beyond what anyone would reasonably pay for entry.

They want each line to represent a unique implied experience. Something to consider - FFG is trying to re-codify the entirety of Star Wars into a game via their system. That's a massive amount of ground to cover. I looked at my stack of d6 books and I'd say FFG has done a pretty damn good job of covering most of that material in their own way.

To say that the books don't *need* to be split into separate lines does not imply that the material within those lines are somehow invalid. The design decision is arbitrary, sure, but I believe the focus has been put to good use. The totality of the lines are intended to cater to those elements because frankly they are exclusive in their general play. Why would a hotshot X-wing pilot working for the Republic be allowed to pal-around with their Smuggler buddy and Sith friend free of context? That's the whole point. Military people will be doing military things, Criminal-folks will be doing criminal things. Jedi/Sith will be doing Jedi/Sith shit and each line supports those things exclusively. But if you wanna mix it up - you can.

My current game features a couple of Smugglers (Pilot, Gunslinger) a Cybertechnician, and an Imperial Infiltrator - working for a Darth and her (PC) Sith Apprentice. So I'm using Edge, AoE, and F&D simultaneously to feed all their respective needs. I *could not* do this with one core book unless you're somehow saying you don't like the color differences between the lines respective books or how they organized all the information in the pages. And this is for campaign purposes, not for running some module or one-shot adventure.

i.e. if you're saying all the FFG books are a money-grab writ-large because of "reprint"  - you're talking about a very small percentage of *three* books (which I maintain you couldn't shovel into one book with their design conceits). vs. the unique material of the entire three lines outside of those core books.

I realize I'm coming across as FFG SW super-fan (I'm not. I'm just willing to defend it against assertions I find silly). The system DOES have its problems. No system is perfect. I'm becoming an non-fan of the crafting system RAW.

I can appreciate someone defending a rpg they like  it just that West End Games managed to put a fairly complete rpg in one book. I admit FFG soured me on a multiple core concept with their 40K rpgs. I admit that's being unfair toward the SW rpg.

What are your issues with the crafting system?

Quote from: tenbones;974401I realize I'm coming across as FFG SW super-fan (I'm not. I'm just willing to defend it against assertions I find silly). The system DOES have its problems. No system is perfect. I'm becoming an non-fan of the crafting system RAW.

I agree.  My biggest issue is how 'soak' focused, instead of dodge.  I like the game, but it's not perfect, as you state.

Quote from: sureshot;974407I can appreciate someone defending a rpg they like  it just that West End Games managed to put a fairly complete rpg in one book. I admit FFG soured me on a multiple core concept with their 40K rpgs. I admit that's being unfair toward the SW rpg.

I hear you. To be fair - I'm more biased even than that. I heard all those things about 40k and never even investigated as to whether it was true. Which is a shame because I *really* feel I missed out on 40k...

Quote from: sureshot;974407What are your issues with the crafting system?

At first blush the crafting in FFG's system is potentially REALLY deep. Once you start reading it, you're frothing at the mouth if you're a tech-junky thinking - OH HELL YEAH! But then you realize that you can *barely* build things from scratch better than basic stuff. And when you can - it would cost, even with Talents and custom tools, workshop, droid help, etc. more than just buying the damn basic item and modding it.

There are work-arounds for this, naturally, but there are some arbitrary values FFG uses for crafting in order "balance" things. But honestly? it's so arbitrary in the face of what the stats and skills that your PC's possess, seems idiotic. You can have a super-genius PC with better skills and facilities short of a full blown industrial complex and they would have to use a little effort to product something barely better than what is readily available from scratch.

Mind you - this is to produce something from SCRATCH - not take something and mod the holy bejeezus out of it and make it far better than a stock piece of gear. There are rules for making better scratch-build gear, but the system requires a lot of unecessary rolls (taking apart a device and making a schematic out of it, and rinse/repeating that to accrue tons of booster dice on the next roll until you have a lot. Some people say this is against the rules, some say you can do it once, I allow you to do it up to the number of ranks of Mechanic's Skill you possess, because I want my PC's to benefit from their abilities.)

The ship-construction rules are about to drop. They need to re-codify the crafting rules writ-large. theyr'e great for modding existing stuff. But for making stuff on your own... they need reworking.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;974411I agree.  My biggest issue is how 'soak' focused, instead of dodge.  I like the game, but it's not perfect, as you state.

I can see that. There is a distinct "cyberpunk 2020" flavor to combat in this game. Granted - if you're using Minion rules the PC's are heroic-fraying the enemies, but it doesn't take much for the PC's to take a hit and those wounds add up fast.

And god forbid someone gets hit with a lightsaber... UNGH!!!!!!

Even in the D6 version being hit with a Lightsaber was no picnic imo. With dodging being the best thing to do in a fight. One could hope that the roll was low or armor took the brunt of it. Dodging was the best and it fits the movies. In that regard imo.

Quote from: Dumarest;972851Had to look that up; that's a new one for me. :p

Heres some more sheeple

(http://www.cliquenabend.de/images/artikel/agricolawerkstattbericht/41.jpg)

Quote from: tenbones;974440I can see that. There is a distinct "cyberpunk 2020" flavor to combat in this game. Granted - if you're using Minion rules the PC's are heroic-fraying the enemies, but it doesn't take much for the PC's to take a hit and those wounds add up fast.

And god forbid someone gets hit with a lightsaber... UNGH!!!!!!

I've never really felt that way about FFG's SW system. Sure, Damage gets thrown around a lot, and it's a hit point system where you're perfectly fine until the last point throws you over the Threshold and you drop, but even then, only Criticals can actually kill you (and they have to pretty high Criticals too). So since Soak is so useful, nobody is willing to dump Brawn even when it might make perfect sense to do so. Oh, and there are stimpacks (healing potions) that are fairly cheap and readily available that can wipe away at least 15 Wounds per day per character.

You end up having characters getting hit often, relying on their innate toughness & armor (Soak) rather than hoping to avoid the hits, and then they shoot up with stims during or after the fights. That's not really the Star Wars I see in any of the media, but I can still play it in a game.

Quote from: HappyDaze;974774I've never really felt that way about FFG's SW system. Sure, Damage gets thrown around a lot, and it's a hit point system where you're perfectly fine until the last point throws you over the Threshold and you drop, but even then, only Criticals can actually kill you (and they have to pretty high Criticals too). So since Soak is so useful, nobody is willing to dump Brawn even when it might make perfect sense to do so. Oh, and there are stimpacks (healing potions) that are fairly cheap and readily available that can wipe away at least 15 Wounds per day per character.

You end up having characters getting hit often, relying on their innate toughness & armor (Soak) rather than hoping to avoid the hits, and then they shoot up with stims during or after the fights. That's not really the Star Wars I see in any of the media, but I can still play it in a game.

All good points. My crew of players have *NO ONE* with Brawn higher than 3, no one is really the heavy-soldier type. So no one even wears heavy armor. They're all "assassin", "techy"- types and one gunslinger supporting a lone Sith working his way up through the Sith ranks, so combat, when it happens, is fast an decisive.

My previous campaign where everyone was playing the big armored soldier-schticks - it was even more decisive. Mainly because they happen to be very tactical and set up their confrontations (when they can) for maximum effectiveness (Heavy+Sniper with the right weapon is unholy). When they are taking hits, it takes a bit more to drop them, true, it's not quite CP2020 dangerous on that front.

I will say this, that I think I disregarded. Stimpaks are powerful. I think the cumulative effect makes FFG's game "feel" very Star Wars. Lots of blasterfire, lots of bad opponents getting dropped, which makes the players feel great about their characters, but still a potential great element of danger. Especially in ship-fights.

Quote from: sureshot;974731Even in the D6 version being hit with a Lightsaber was no picnic imo. With dodging being the best thing to do in a fight. One could hope that the roll was low or armor took the brunt of it. Dodging was the best and it fits the movies. In that regard imo.

Dodging in FFG is really limited to the Talent "Side-Step" which is really powerful. Unfortunately very few specializations get it. Sure you could "take cover" and call it a dodge or whatever, but the mechanics are nowhere near as good (Setback vs. Difficulty increase) So yeah - as Chris mentioned, soaking is a big deal which does feels a little heavy. But coming from my Cyberpunk2020 sensibilities, this seems "right" for my brand of Star Wars. I want it grittier.

I always felt in d6 that while Dodge was awesome, it felt more like NPC's were under the quasi-Minion mode of simply having shitty Blaster scores comparatively (outside the odd NPC who was a badass). It *felt* that way. I'd agree it felt closer to the movies. But as time has worn on, I'm less a fan of the movies than I am of the Old Republic games which had a much different tone and set of combat conceits.

What would happen if you changed the damage system to match the films, having nearly any hit by a blaster or worse be incapacitating and likely lethal, and added more modifiers that make it harder to hit people who are being cautious/defensive and/or have some sort of cover?

(And threw out all stimpacks and other magic insta-healing.)

Quote from: Omega;974771Heres some more sheeple

(http://www.cliquenabend.de/images/artikel/agricolawerkstattbericht/41.jpg)

I would have thought to call them "sheep."

Quote from: Dumarest;974906I would have thought to call them "sheep."

Those little wood folk are called "meeple" I think.  So sheep meeple are likely sheeple.

Quote from: Skarg;974883What would happen if you changed the damage system to match the films, having nearly any hit by a blaster or worse be incapacitating and likely lethal, and added more modifiers that make it harder to hit people who are being cautious/defensive and/or have some sort of cover?

(And threw out all stimpacks and other magic insta-healing.)

Well the game uses Strain as well as Wounds. Technically speaking you can be suffering strain for any number of reasons - by GM fiat, choice to activate abilities, penalty based on opponent's abilities to inflict Strain - it's quite flexible. That's supposed to represent some of that.

The game already gives you lots of ways to use cover, including spending Advantage points for narrative effects if your GM allows it, to increase opponent rolls. All such environmental issues are codified as "setback dice" (d6's) added to those pools. It's works well. But nothing is better than raising and upgrading Difficulty. That comes strictly from specific things like Range, and Talents.

I feel the game RAW captures Star Wars in feel, generally. Digging a level deeper I think it's more "lethal" than the movies, but definitely captures the heroic aspects. I could go either way between d6 and FFG's expressions of the game.

Which is why I *like* that all three lines of the game emphasize different things. Come to think about it - it might be because of that fact alone I have the perception of the game that I do. Age of Rebellion is for military style play - where all that armor is a huge benefit alongside the Magical Healz-packs. While Edge generally tends to be a bit more roleplay oriented until it's blaster's out. But people tend to be less geared. (unless you're playing a Hired Gun, Bounty Hunter etc.)

Quote from: Manic Modron;974929Those little wood folk are called "meeple" I think.  So sheep meeple are likely sheeple.

Yeah, I can't see myself saying meeple and sheeple instead of people and sheep.

Fair warning: use of the word 'sheeple' is a clear sign you are a interwebz blowhard. Almost up there with 'cuck.'

Quote from: Voros;975102Fair warning: use of the word 'sheeple' is a clear sign you are a interwebz blowhard. Almost up there with 'cuck.'

Either that or you play Agricola? :cool:

Quote from: Skarg;974883What would happen if you changed the damage system to match the films, having nearly any hit by a blaster or worse be incapacitating and likely lethal, and added more modifiers that make it harder to hit people who are being cautious/defensive and/or have some sort of cover?

(And threw out all stimpacks and other magic insta-healing.)

Then you'd be playing RQ6 Star Wars. :D

Quote from: tenbones;974940Well the game uses Strain as well as Wounds. Technically speaking you can be suffering strain for any number of reasons - by GM fiat, choice to activate abilities, penalty based on opponent's abilities to inflict Strain - it's quite flexible. That's supposed to represent some of that.

The game already gives you lots of ways to use cover, including spending Advantage points for narrative effects if your GM allows it, to increase opponent rolls. All such environmental issues are codified as "setback dice" (d6's) added to those pools. It's works well. But nothing is better than raising and upgrading Difficulty. That comes strictly from specific things like Range, and Talents.

I feel the game RAW captures Star Wars in feel, generally. Digging a level deeper I think it's more "lethal" than the movies, but definitely captures the heroic aspects. I could go either way between d6 and FFG's expressions of the game.

Which is why I *like* that all three lines of the game emphasize different things. Come to think about it - it might be because of that fact alone I have the perception of the game that I do. Age of Rebellion is for military style play - where all that armor is a huge benefit alongside the Magical Healz-packs. While Edge generally tends to be a bit more roleplay oriented until it's blaster's out. But people tend to be less geared. (unless you're playing a Hired Gun, Bounty Hunter etc.)

Interesting, thanks again, Tenbones!

I think our ideas differ a bit on what we expect SW combat to be like, as I don't expect any Healz-packs, and I don't expect armor to be a huge benefit (though it seems like it should have some benefit, it certainly didn't seem to keep anyone from getting knocked out of combat, with the possible exception of one or two Vader tinks, or possible deflections that weren't noticeable on screen. I don't mind the idea that stormtrooper armor tends to turn lethal hits into incapacitating hits, though.

Quote from: CRKrueger;975124Then you'd be playing RQ6 Star Wars. :D

Sounds good to me! Sort of... does RQ ever use a tactical map?

Quote from: Omega;975109Either that or you play Agricola? :cool:

Agricola sounds like a soft drink made from manure.

Quote from: Dumarest;975227Agricola sounds like a soft drink made from manure.

I believe it is Latin for farm or farmer. It's the only word my dad remembers from High School Latin.

Quote from: Harlock;975274I believe it is Latin for farm or farmer. It's the only word my dad remembers from High School Latin.

Agricola means farmer but it still sounds like a soft drink made from manure.

Quote from: sureshot;974731Even in the D6 version being hit with a Lightsaber was no picnic imo. With dodging being the best thing to do in a fight. One could hope that the roll was low or armor took the brunt of it. Dodging was the best and it fits the movies. In that regard imo.

While I've seen GMs allow that, playing strictly according to the D6 rules dodge doesn't work against melee, brawling, or lightsaber attacks. You need to use some sort of parry or move far enough and fast enough to get out of range.

Quote from: Voros;975102Fair warning: use of the word 'sheeple' is a clear sign you are a interwebz blowhard. Almost up there with 'cuck.'

Meh. I've used sheeple since before the Internet was popularized whereas 'cuck' just looks to me like the writer is a poor typist.

FFG just announced they're doing "era" splatbooks. First one is the Clone Wars era. Interesting.

/crosses fingers for Old Republic

Quote from: tenbones;975526FFG just announced they're doing "era" splatbooks. First one is the Clone Wars era. Interesting.

/crosses fingers for Old Republic

I don't see why not, they've already used a picture in the EotE corebook of everyone's favourite psycho killer robot from the video games, HK-47.

I wanted to ask when the dice  rolls a side with no number what does it mean.

Quote from: tenbones;975526FFG just announced they're doing "era" splatbooks. First one is the Clone Wars era. Interesting.

/crosses fingers for Old Republic

Did they define that any better? Is it just prequels era, or does it include stuff from the cartoon series of the same name? Because the cartoon was better than the movies.

Quote from: sureshot;975607I wanted to ask when the dice  rolls a side with no number what does it mean.

It means you got nothing.

Quote from: Harlock;975608Did they define that any better? Is it just prequels era, or does it include stuff from the cartoon series of the same name? Because the cartoon was better than the movies.

Nothing definite other than it's supposed to cover the "Clone Wars Era" - I'm hoping that means *all* of the things you mentioned.

Quote from: tenbones;975615Nothing definite other than it's supposed to cover the "Clone Wars Era" - I'm hoping that means *all* of the things you mentioned.

That would be the best way to do it. And era splatbooks, as expensive as that could get, would actually have me take a harder look at this game. It would be great to examine some of the EU stuff as well. As long as there is no "Life Day" supplement, I'm good.

"Dawn of Rebellion" is not Clone Wars.  It is the galaxy pre-New Hope.  Star Wars Rebels & Rogue One type of stuff.

Quote from: Harlock;975608Did they define that any better? Is it just prequels era, or does it include stuff from the cartoon series of the same name? Because the cartoon was better than the movies.

Wouldn't it have to be? :D

I've seen a few with my son and they are pretty good although I don't like the animation style.

I think the Star Wars Rebels cartoon is the best thing they've made since Return of the Jedi. You could easily run games stealing plots from the show and the characters feel like a party of PCs. My only complaint would be the omnipresence of Force users at a time when they should be few and far between.

Quote from: tenbones;975614It means you got nothing.

Thanks as usual your help on the rules is very much appreciated.

Quote from: Dumarest;975678Wouldn't it have to be? :D

I've seen a few with my son and they are pretty good although I don't like the animation style.

I think the Star Wars Rebels cartoon is the best thing they've made since Return of the Jedi. You could easily run games stealing plots from the show and the characters feel like a party of PCs. My only complaint would be the omnipresence of Force users at a time when they should be few and far between.

Eh, I like the show plenty, but the Empire might as well be the villains in a capt planet cartoon for the most part.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;975697Eh, I like the show plenty, but the Empire might as well be the villains in a capt planet cartoon for the most part.

How is that any different from the films which were inspired by the likes of Captain Planet to begin with?

Quote from: Voros;975708How is that any different from the films which were inspired by the likes of Captain Planet to begin with?

The Empire from the movies trounced everybody that wasn't a named and major hero. The Empire from Rebels could and in fact have fucked up trying to secure a fruit stand.

The person running this website is a racist who publicly advocates genocidal practices.

I am deleting my content.

I recommend you do the same.

Rebels is ok, the kiddie character is not. But then i'm not the demographic.

I enjoyed Vader and Ahsoka.

Sabine is just annoying.

The droid is simply biding his time plotting to kill the rest of the crew, obviously

I'd swear Chopper has tried to kill Ezra at least twice, and the crew as a whole once.

Quote from: Dumarest;975678I think the Star Wars Rebels cartoon is the best thing they've made since Return of the Jedi. You could easily run games stealing plots from the show and the characters feel like a party of PCs. My only complaint would be the omnipresence of Force users at a time when they should be few and far between.

One of the main production voices in that is a WEG Star Wars RPG alumni, Pablo Hidalgo. That is why a lot of cool stuff from the RPG has survived and the episodes feel a lot like a group of PCs on an adventure.

As for Force Users, there are a lot, but they are also killed off during the show.

Quote from: jeff37923;975905One of the main production voices in that is a WEG Star Wars RPG alumni, Pablo Hidalgo. That is why a lot of cool stuff from the RPG has survived and the episodes feel a lot like a group of PCs on an adventure.

...and maybe that explains why Sabine is immune to all Stormtrooper fire, she's a WEG d6 Bounty Hunter who got that 7d6 Dodge?  :D

At least in Clone Wars, the Jedi Masters had to block droid fire with their lightsabers, the crew of the Ghost doesn't even need to dodge most of the time, the Stormtroopers just wildly miss, even when the crew is basically monologuing at them.

Quote from: Manic Modron;975672"Dawn of Rebellion" is not Clone Wars.  It is the galaxy pre-New Hope.  Star Wars Rebels & Rogue One type of stuff.

Looks like you're right. My enthusiasm just took a critical hit. I'll look before I buy. On the surface, this doesn't excite me at all.

"Fantasy Flight Games is proud to announce Dawn of Rebellion, a new sourcebook for the Star Wars™ Roleplaying Game line. Dawn of Rebellion is the first sourcebook of its kind, designed to be used alongside any of the three core roleplaying lines. Campaigns using Edge of the Empire™, Age of Rebellion™, or Force and Destiny™—or any combination of the same—will find a wealth of valuable information within its 144 pages. Primarily focusing on the years preceding the Battle of Yavin, Dawn of Rebellion features descriptions, context, and statistics for many of the iconic characters and vehicles appearing in the Star Wars: Rebels television show and in Rogue One: A Star Wars Story. The might of the Empire is at an unprecedented peak and a successful rebellion seems like a fever dream to all but the most optimistic. Even those who have no personal stake in the Galactic Civil War feel the tremendous impact of this new order."

Might be a good setup for a galaxy without a Skywalker game, or perhaps testing the waters for era sourcebooks to replace core books once genesys is released.

Likely.

I think it's an unfortunate choice. The entirety of New Hope Era ultimately is a cop-out to me. This is not to say you can't have awesome campaigns there. I think the events of the New Hope era (and I'd include this period too) it's so inextricably tied to Skywalker and his fucked up family, that it overshadows a lot of other possibilities that many take to be obvious.

Like being a Jedi. Sure the book assumes you can be a Jedi, but it also makes up some really limp excuses for it, or they ignore it altogether leaving it up to the GM (which normally I'm fine with) - the issue being that like being a Mage in a Middle-Earth campaign, it flies in the face of the larger context.

It's one of the reasons why I don't care about the prequel movies (including Rogue One, and I have no interest in the Han Solo movie etc). I'd much rather leave this era for something beyond the machinations of Palpatine and his weak legacy with the Skywalker boys and girls.

I'm not going to shit on the book, I'm sure there will be material that I can use, but I doubt the setting material will be of much use. But you know. It is what it is.

The person running this website is a racist who publicly advocates genocidal practices.

I am deleting my content.

I recommend you do the same.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;976280(Ironically the era is less appealing to me now that the Rebels cartoon and Rogue One exist as "canon" locking down the early days of the Rebellion, despite that being the reason we're getting this sourcebook.)

I felt that the show and the movie actually makes it easier to run Rebels in this era.  We see several different groups at play here before and after the Alliance with different philosophies and concerns.  Compare Mon Mothma to General Sato to Ahoska Tano to Saw Gerrara.  By the time New Hope come around the Alliance has consolidated most of the activity using Alderaan as a rallying cry and  you get tied up in the destiny of the movies.

If I were to start a game it'd likely be this period or else post-Endor (either right after and covering the war up to Jakku or else fast forwarding to the events of Bloodline and chronicling the rise of the Resistance).

Quote from: Justin Alexander;976280I'd have thought that's the advantage of the period between the Clone Wars and the Rebellion: Luke and Leia aren't on the scene yet. Anakin is largely side-lined and knocked off both the prophecy path and Palpatine's original plan by the volcano.

(Ironically the era is less appealing to me now that the Rebels cartoon and Rogue One exist as "canon" locking down the early days of the Rebellion, despite that being the reason we're getting this sourcebook.)

As you astutely pointed out - it's already locked down. That's the problem - the primary story-line is pretty narrow in scope. The whole galaxy largely turns on the activities of these few people that aren't your PC's by canon. Sure you could slip them in there... but you know.

That's why I like Old Republic. Nice and wide open. Tons of possibilities. Very little canon that matters. Plenty of options for Force Users, including a few that have nothing to do with Jedi or Sith, though they're not quite as developed, but who cares! It's the Old Republic - make it up. Doing that in the New Era seems snowflakely as hell.

Quote from: tenbones;976481As you astutely pointed out - it's already locked down. That's the problem - the primary story-line is pretty narrow in scope. The whole galaxy largely turns on the activities of these few people that aren't your PC's by canon. Sure you could slip them in there... but you know.

That's why I like Old Republic. Nice and wide open. Tons of possibilities. Very little canon that matters. Plenty of options for Force Users, including a few that have nothing to do with Jedi or Sith, though they're not quite as developed, but who cares! It's the Old Republic - make it up. Doing that in the New Era seems snowflakely as hell.

I've been working my way to doing a immediately post-Endor (RotJ) game where the Death Star II is destroyed with Luke, Vader, and Emperor aboard. Unfortunately, the Rebel fleet is savaged in the same battle and most if its leadership is now dead or captured (including all of those idiots in Solo's commando team that were down on the moon). Effectively, this continues the Galactic Civil War while wiping away the prominent NPCs to allow PCs to play key positions on either side of the conflict. Whether they take the reigns of rebuilding and leading the Rebel Alliance or if they want to be the successor(s) to Palpatine, the galaxy is there for them and in a form far more recognizable than the Old Republic would be for those that have not played the video games.

The person running this website is a racist who publicly advocates genocidal practices.

I am deleting my content.

I recommend you do the same.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;976542I see that. That was basically always my vision of the period, though, so the new movies/series have mostly just confirmed the set-up more than anything else.

My favored approach for original trilogy stuff now would be "surviving Jedi on the other side of the galaxy". Galaxies are really, really big. Lots of interesting stuff happening where the movies aren't; and you can have a really interesting post-Endor transition when the Imperial forces you've been dealing with over here on the far side of the galaxy are suddenly a post-Imperial satrapy. (The Inquisitor regimes created by Rebels offer interesting possibilities here.)

I mean, I completely reject Lucas' Rule of Two nonsense to begin with. It's dumb at face value and it's even dumber in any sort of extended universe.

That is exactly how I'd do it if I wanted to skirt around movie-canon. I've considered doing a "reimagining" of the whole Star Wars setting and cherrypicking lore and ideas to use as I see fit. But I've not dedicated and real thought to it yet.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;976542I mean, I completely reject Lucas' Rule of Two nonsense to begin with. It's dumb at face value and it's even dumber in any sort of extended universe.

To mention nothing of the fact that the rule of two was broken often in spin off series. As was the jedi being exterminated. As long as people realize Lucas broke his own rules about what was canon and what wasn't; a Star Wars RPG could be wide open in any era.

Quote from: Harlock;976703To mention nothing of the fact that the rule of two was broken often in spin off series. As was the jedi being exterminated. As long as people realize Lucas broke his own rules about what was canon and what wasn't; a Star Wars RPG could be wide open in any era.

Personally I am mind-boggled when I hear people actually care and try to stay within the ever-changing "canon" of a cheesy science fantasy series. Anything outside the first three movies I really don't know or care about aside from seeing a few Rebels episodes with my son. I actually thought they took place post-Star Wars but it sounds like they take place pre-Star Wars from what I'm reading. Either way, if I'm going to play Star Wars it's going to take place after the first movie and nothing else counts except material from the first movie.

Quote from: Dumarest;976707Personally I am mind-boggled when I hear people actually care and try to stay within the ever-changing "canon" of a cheesy science fantasy series. Anything outside the first three movies I really don't know or care about aside from seeing a few Rebels episodes with my son. I actually thought they took place post-Star Wars but it sounds like they take place pre-Star Wars from what I'm reading. Either way, if I'm going to play Star Wars it's going to take place after the first movie and nothing else counts except material from the first movie.

You're on the right track. Rebels is pre-A New Hope. I don't game with people so caught up in canon they can't suspend their disbelief and enjoy a game in any era of Star Wars or any other franchise setting. "Elminster shouldn't be alive in this campaign!" says angry player.

To which snarky DM replies, "Well, magic. Now shut up and play!"

Quote from: Dumarest;976707Personally I am mind-boggled when I hear people actually care and try to stay within the ever-changing "canon" of a cheesy science fantasy series. Anything outside the first three movies I really don't know or care about aside from seeing a few Rebels episodes with my son. I actually thought they took place post-Star Wars but it sounds like they take place pre-Star Wars from what I'm reading. Either way, if I'm going to play Star Wars it's going to take place after the first movie and nothing else counts except material from the first movie.

I do not dispute the cheese. These dairy-products abound in our hobby, and in almost every setting I can think of.

HOWEVER - I will wholeheartedly disagree with you that the movie-era parameters of the SW universe is somehow qualitatively better than the Old Republic, pound-for-pound. Because anything specific to the OT you can do with ease in the vast era of the Old Republic - including completely running off doing your own thing.

You could do that too in the OT era - but the real thorn is the Jedi/Sith canon issue of that era in context, much like being a Wizard PC in the Lord of the Rings RPG(s), to the degree that you even give a nod to canon in any meaningful degree.

There is, in the Old Republic, no limit on those things. There is more infrastructure, more options as part of the conceits of the time-period than just the OT's version of the Empire and Republic. The Jedi and Sith orders are much more developed and much more established.

But I can't account for your personal tastes, I'm just talking about era's material conceits.

Quote from: tenbones;976903I do not dispute the cheese. These dairy-products abound in our hobby, and in almost every setting I can think of.

HOWEVER - I will wholeheartedly disagree with you that the movie-era parameters of the SW universe is somehow qualitatively better than the Old Republic, pound-for-pound. Because anything specific to the OT you can do with ease in the vast era of the Old Republic - including completely running off doing your own thing.

You could do that too in the OT era - but the real thorn is the Jedi/Sith canon issue of that era in context, much like being a Wizard PC in the Lord of the Rings RPG(s), to the degree that you even give a nod to canon in any meaningful degree.

There is, in the OT, no limit on those things. Quite the opposite - there is more infrastructure, more options as part of the conceits of the time-period than just the OT's version of the Empire and Republic. The Jedi and Sith orders are much more developed and much more established.

But I can't account for your personal tastes, I'm just talking about era's material conceits.

I never said one period of Star Wars was better than another so your post is you arguing with nobody. Go back and re-read what I wrote and you'll see that. ;)

Quote from: Dumarest;976905I never said one period of Star Wars was better than another so your post is you arguing with nobody. Go back and re-read what I wrote and you'll see that. ;)

NOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hence I said "somehow" that word connotes an acceptance that you do have an undefined preference that excludes anything outside of that preference in some degree - even if it's microbial in size.

I'm declaring my side of the microbe is, in fact, qualitatively more useful based purely on content options alone. FIGHT ME!!!!!

Quote from: tenbones;976922NOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hence I said "somehow" that word connotes an acceptance that you do have an undefined preference that excludes anything outside of that preference in some degree - even if it's microbial in size.

I'm declaring my side of the microbe is, in fact, qualitatively more useful based purely on content options alone. FIGHT ME!!!!!

I'll take you on with half my mitochondria tied behind my back!

Quote from: jeff37923;976925I'll take you on with half my mitochondria tied behind my back!

aha! that's when I invoke the Dark Side and smash my Vial of Suckitude containing my zombie-Midicholrians on the ground. Oh it's on! I play to win!!!!!

Quote from: tenbones;976922NOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hence I said "somehow" that word connotes an acceptance that you do have an undefined preference that excludes anything outside of that preference in some degree - even if it's microbial in size.

I'm declaring my side of the microbe is, in fact, qualitatively more useful based purely on content options alone. FIGHT ME!!!!!

:D I don't like Star Wars enough to care either way...same reason I haven't watched any of the post-1983 movies...I'm more of a pre-Star Wars-era sci fi guy. Hence my username. :D

EDIT: But I'm sure I could find something equally inconsequential to argue about if you want.

Quote from: Dumarest;976942:D I don't like Star Wars enough to care either way...same reason I haven't watched any of the post-1983 movies...I'm more of a pre-Star Wars-era sci fi guy. Hence my username. :D

EDIT: But I'm sure I could find something equally inconsequential to argue about if you want.

This is how Star Wars is for me.
https://youtu.be/NuNvCOUy1Ts

Quote from: tenbones;976937aha! that's when I invoke the Dark Side and smash my Vial of Suckitude containing my zombie-Midicholrians on the ground. Oh it's on! I play to win!!!!!

Oh God! My organelles! They are on fire!

I shall cut loose with a blast of cytoplasm from my semipermiable membrane!

Oh its Thrawn! I study art and culture to win!  :D

Quote from: tenbones;976956This is how Star Wars is for me.
https://youtu.be/NuNvCOUy1Ts

I'll have to check that out later when I'm not at work.

As a side note I did a quick comparison between the core-books.

There is approximately 90-pages of overlap. This includes explaining the mechanics, the stats, the skills and the gear. Combat rules. And that's about it.

Book sizes are 460-pages each, not counting character-sheets. So ~370-pages of each book is original material.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;976542I mean, I completely reject Lucas' Rule of Two nonsense to begin with. It's dumb at face value and it's even dumber in any sort of extended universe.

A rule of two just about guarantees that the Sith will fall apart, especially if one is always trying to kill the other.  A convenient death at the correct time (just after killing the master) and the whole lineage is gone (like with Return of the Jedi).  Not to mention the loss of information involved.

Just a terrible, terrible idea.

I hear great things about the system, but I already have 90 - 95% of the WEG Star Wars stuff and I'm missing maybe 2-3 of the SAGA edition d20 system.  I just can't justify plunking down FFG prices for a third way to play Star Wars.

With Clone Wars, Rebels, the Legacy comics, KotOR/SWTOR, and Rogue One, there's an embarrassment of riches for settings and game ideas.  I might pick up the setting neutral rule book they're working on, but I'm fine on rules for now.

Quote from: Votan;978871A rule of two just about guarantees that the Sith will fall apart, especially if one is always trying to kill the other.  A convenient death at the correct time (just after killing the master) and the whole lineage is gone (like with Return of the Jedi).  Not to mention the loss of information involved.

Just a terrible, terrible idea.

One of the things I loved about the Legacy comics was that Darth Krayt decided that unrelenting numerical inferiority sucked as a long term plan and replaced the Rule of Two with the Rule of One ... there was One Sith Order.

I miss that series.

Quote from: Votan;978871A rule of two just about guarantees that the Sith will fall apart, especially if one is always trying to kill the other.  A convenient death at the correct time (just after killing the master) and the whole lineage is gone (like with Return of the Jedi).  Not to mention the loss of information involved.

Just a terrible, terrible idea.

It's an idea that you can blow a hole through with the logic of a 4 year old.  The problem with Lucas (for a long time now) is that he's so fucking rich no one in Hollywood but Spielberg has the balls to look him in the eye and say "Dude, are you out of your goddamn mind?"

Quote from: CRKrueger;978900It's an idea that you can blow a hole through with the logic of a 4 year old.  The problem with Lucas (for a long time now) is that he's so fucking rich no one in Hollywood but Spielberg has the balls to look him in the eye and say "Dude, are you out of your goddamn mind?"

Why would they? He prints money for them.

I'd be more okay with the Rule of Two if it meant that the Sith were basically the Pope and Demipope of an organization of dark side users.  So everybody can say they are part of the Sith Order (which can maintain knowledge and be a talent pool), but the only people allowed to bear the title are the ones at the top.  Unfortunately I don't think that bears up with the way things are happening.

It should be noted that even if stuff more or less vetted by Lucas, the Rule of Two is honored more in the breach than the observance. Asajj Ventress comes to mind, there's the "Secret Apprentice" from The Force Unleashed and according to the Darth Plagueis novel--which Lucas consulted on and which was marketed as canon--Darth Plagueis is killed during Episode I.

Quote from: Votan;978871A rule of two just about guarantees that the Sith will fall apart, especially if one is always trying to kill the other.  A convenient death at the correct time (just after killing the master) and the whole lineage is gone (like with Return of the Jedi).  Not to mention the loss of information involved.

Just a terrible, terrible idea.

/Agreed. This is yet another reason why I play in the Old Republic era. None of that dumb shit was in place.

Quote from: Tait Ransom;978879I hear great things about the system, but I already have 90 - 95% of the WEG Star Wars stuff and I'm missing maybe 2-3 of the SAGA edition d20 system.  I just can't justify plunking down FFG prices for a third way to play Star Wars.

With Clone Wars, Rebels, the Legacy comics, KotOR/SWTOR, and Rogue One, there's an embarrassment of riches for settings and game ideas.  I might pick up the setting neutral rule book they're working on, but I'm fine on rules for now.

If you have all those WEG books - then yes, you have little need to pursue FFG's Star Wars game. If you're interested in checking out a different mechanical expression and you have a lot of money just... you know... laying around... then it might be worth your while (but I doubt it). Even with the setting neutral book, when it arrives, it wouldn't be worth the effort to manually convert all your WEG material over. Why bother?

The only reason I did it, was simply to see if it lived up to the reviews i'd read about it. And it largely does. PLUS I'd sold most of my WEG material. Some of which I bought BACK just for reference. There are some things FFG does better, some it doesn't. I love WEG's SW. I'll never say it's a bad system. All systems have flaws. But some systems just stand tall for what they are. D6 is one of those systems.

Quote from: tenbones;976956This is how Star Wars is for me.
https://youtu.be/NuNvCOUy1Ts

OK, now that was pretty cool.

Quote from: jeff37923;979100OK, now that was pretty cool.

So tell me that wasn't how Star Wars *should* be. Fuck all this Skywalker shit. Give me all the awesome. ALL of it. Not one tiny strain of it. Give me a Galaxy At War. Give me vast criminal cartels that rival the Empire and Republic in their own right. Give me a fully fleshed out Mandalorian tradition that is feared throughout the galaxy to which all other Bounty Hunter Syndicates aspire. Give me world-shaking technology of the precursor races that make the Death Star look like a mid-range toy. Give me AI Droid Conspiracies that are as dangerous as anything the Empire or Republic represent. Give me daring Jedi and Sith that question the fundamental politics of their Orders in light of the Force, and watch them fight titanic struggles against the great powers. YES!!!! this is what Star Wars should be. I want that!

I want it all.

Quote from: tenbones;979117So tell me that wasn't how Star Wars *should* be. Fuck all this Skywalker shit. Give me all the awesome. ALL of it. Not one tiny strain of it. Give me a Galaxy At War. Give me vast criminal cartels that rival the Empire and Republic in their own right. Give me a fully fleshed out Mandalorian tradition that is feared throughout the galaxy to which all other Bounty Hunter Syndicates aspire. Give me world-shaking technology of the precursor races that make the Death Star look like a mid-range toy. Give me AI Droid Conspiracies that are as dangerous as anything the Empire or Republic represent. Give me daring Jedi and Sith that question the fundamental politics of their Orders in light of the Force, and watch them fight titanic struggles against the great powers. YES!!!! this is what Star Wars should be. I want that!

I want it all.

So basically what Legends use to be before getting scrapped and being plagiarized to hell and back to make up for the fact that Rebels does Nothing original?

Quote from: tenbones;979117So tell me that wasn't how Star Wars *should* be. Fuck all this Skywalker shit. Give me all the awesome. ALL of it. Not one tiny strain of it. Give me a Galaxy At War. Give me vast criminal cartels that rival the Empire and Republic in their own right. Give me a fully fleshed out Mandalorian tradition that is feared throughout the galaxy to which all other Bounty Hunter Syndicates aspire. Give me world-shaking technology of the precursor races that make the Death Star look like a mid-range toy. Give me AI Droid Conspiracies that are as dangerous as anything the Empire or Republic represent. Give me daring Jedi and Sith that question the fundamental politics of their Orders in light of the Force, and watch them fight titanic struggles against the great powers. YES!!!! this is what Star Wars should be. I want that!

I want it all.

I want more.

I want there to be space for tales of the hero who isn't larger than life, but still does the right thing even though it scares him so badly that he pisses himself. I want comedy like the Tag & Bink comics series. I want horror like Red Harvest and Death Troopers.

I want more of what there is less of.

The grandiose galaxy smashing material that you so eloquently describe removes too much of the human element in my view and reduces the stories to superheroics that are hard to connect to when every main character is the Best In The Galaxy. You can overdose on wonderous spectacle in fiction or gaming just like any drug.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;979132So basically what Legends use to be before getting scrapped and being plagiarized to hell and back to make up for the fact that Rebels does Nothing original?

Pablo Hidalgo wrote for Legends, particularly for WEG, and is responsible for a lot of that "plagiarizing". He is also why we don't see fucking Gungans and Ewoks everywhere in Rebels.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;979132So basically what Legends use to be before getting scrapped and being plagiarized to hell and back to make up for the fact that Rebels does Nothing original?

  Well, parts of Legends. Other parts could be silly or repetitive, such as The Crystal Star, or the Legacy of the Force novels redoing the middle act of Episode III with Jacen while taking four novels to do it (Bloodlines, Tempest, Exile, Sacrifice). ;)

   More seriously, Legends requires a fair bit of cherry-picking, but it's definitely a much broader canvas than the New Canon. Personally, I'd love to do some more stuff with the Tales of the Jedi era, the last pre-CW days of the Old Republic, the stuff hinted at around the edges of Dark Empire and in the text material at the back of the original TPB, and the strangeness of things like the Otherspace and DarkStryder modules, Zahn's glimpses of the Unknown Regions, and even redoing the Yuuzhan Vong. :)

Quote from: jeff37923;979151I want more.

I want there to be space for tales of the hero who isn't larger than life, but still does the right thing even though it scares him so badly that he pisses himself. I want comedy like the Tag & Bink comics series. I want horror like Red Harvest and Death Troopers.

I want more of what there is less of.

The grandiose galaxy smashing material that you so eloquently describe removes too much of the human element in my view and reduces the stories to superheroics that are hard to connect to when every main character is the Best In The Galaxy. You can overdose on wonderous spectacle in fiction or gaming just like any drug.

Isn't that rather easy to do? Just discount the material you don't like and make up whatever you want. That's what I do. When I play Star Wars I like to set it right after Star Wars (aka A New Hope) and disregard all other films and incorporate material from the first few years of the Marvel comics. That universe is so much better than anything George Lucas did...!

Edit: although I do like to toss in the occasional Ewok...:D

Quote from: Dumarest;979362Edit: although I do like to toss in the occasional Ewok...:D

Be sure to remove the fur before you toss the Ewok in. Burning Ewok fur smells terrible.

Quote from: Bren;979383Be sure to remove the fur before you toss the Ewok in. Burning Ewok fur smells terrible.

Worse than wet Ewok fur?

My kids love Ewoks.

Much worse.

You could try Wookies, but the always come out a little chewie.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;979441You could try Wookies, but the always come out a little chewie.

So bad it's good.
:p

Quote from: Dumarest;979362Isn't that rather easy to do? Just discount the material you don't like and make up whatever you want. That's what I do. When I play Star Wars I like to set it right after Star Wars (aka A New Hope) and disregard all other films and incorporate material from the first few years of the Marvel comics. That universe is so much better than anything George Lucas did...!

I could, but the Star Wars universe is so freakin' big that I don't have to ignore the movies and still have the adventuring with a lower case "a".

Quote from: Dumarest;979362Edit: although I do like to toss in the occasional Ewok...:D

Of all the things that Star Wars has inflicted on me, Ewoks and Gungans are the most unforgiveable. They are the equivalent of Kender or Malkavians because they attract players who just want to screw around while everybody else gets on with the game.

Quote from: jeff37923;979499Of all the things that Star Wars has inflicted on me, Ewoks and Gungans are the most unforgiveable. They are the equivalent of Kender or Malkavians because they attract players who just want to screw around while everybody else gets on with the game.

WEG gave us the Squibs. They were worse than both Gungans and Ewoks in the exact manner you mention.

Quote from: HappyDaze;979533WEG gave us the Squibs. They were worse than both Gungans and Ewoks in the exact manner you mention.

I was always able to hide the Squibs and Ugor from players since they weren't in the movies, which I just couldn't do with the Ewoks and Gungans.

I feel the temptation of the Dark Side beckoning me to GM Star Wars where genocidal-type things happen to gungans and ewoks, and nothing in Episode VII happens or exists.

Quote from: jeff37923;979499I could, but the Star Wars universe is so freakin' big that I don't have to ignore the movies and still have the adventuring with a lower case "a".



Of all the things that Star Wars has inflicted on me, Ewoks and Gungans are the most unforgiveable. They are the equivalent of Kender or Malkavians because they attract players who just want to screw around while everybody else gets on with the game.

I imagine I'm lucky not to be sure what a Kender or a Malkavian is. :)

The more people complain about Ewoks, the more I know they love them. "The lady doth protest too much, methinks," as somebody wrote somewhere sometime for some reason. :D

Also: you don't have to ignore all the bad, bad Star War  movies, but why wouldn't you?

Quote from: Dumarest;979561Also: you don't have to ignore all the bad, bad Star War  movies, but why wouldn't you?

Even from the bad, bad can come some good. I am not a fan of the prequels, but those led into The Clone Wars TV series which has got some great stuff in it.

Plus, the bonus is that most of these NPCs, droids, starships, and equipment from them have been statted out by d6 WEG fans already which saves me a lot of time.

Quote from: Skarg;979559I feel the temptation of the Dark Side beckoning me to GM Star Wars where genocidal-type things happen to gungans and ewoks, and nothing in Episode VII happens or exists.

The ewoks perish in the Endor Holocaust  (http://www.theforce.net/swtc/holocaust.html)in my Star Wars Universe.

Gungans are a bit special....

I imagine that the Emperor will be wanting some assurance against assassination attempts while consolidating his power, so he has made Jar Jar Binks a Hero of the Empire for putting forth the motion before the senate to give him full executive power. Jar Jar is now an Imperial Representative without portfolio at large and is often sent out with a well-publicized itinerary to try and negotiate for people to accept Imperial Rule. In actuality, Jar Jar is bait, sent to attract assassins who want revenge against the Empire. There is a low to mid level Inquisitor assigned to protect Jar Jar and kill off any would be assassins (although many Inquisitors do feel that this is a punishment assignment). The Emperor finds the whole situation he has created to be, amusing.

Of course, the people who want Jar Jar assassinated the most come from a minor gungan colony established during the years between the Naboo blockade by the Trade Federation and start of the Clone Wars. Which just makes another target to be destroyed when appropriate.

Poor Ewoks. Outperform the fan-favorite Boba Fett and the Imperial stormtroopers and  still get no respect.

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Me, I like to think that inside the stormtrooper helmets that the Ewoks use as drums at the end of RotJ are the boiled skulls of the helmet's owners.

Well, you have to wonder what happened to the woman who was wearing Leia's native dress before Leia......

Quote from: jeff37923;979586Well, you have to wonder what happened to the woman who was wearing Leia's native dress before Leia......

They just fished it out of the Rancor's nest and washed it off.

Quote from: jeff37923;979586Well, you have to wonder what happened to the woman who was wearing Leia's native dress before Leia......

Ewoks probably ate her. Hell, the end of the battle must have been one giant buffet line.

My group tried Edge of the Empire a few years ago and we hated it. The funky dice created such a strain on me as a GM to constantly come up with complications and boons or whatever. My players also hated interpreting those symbols every time they rolled. No more games with funky dice at our table.

Quote from: Crisis911;979605My group tried Edge of the Empire a few years ago and we hated it. The funky dice created such a strain on me as a GM to constantly come up with complications and boons or whatever. My players also hated interpreting those symbols every time they rolled. No more games with funky dice at our table.

My group loves it for the same reasons yours don't. Different strokes.

Quote from: jeff37923;979586Well, you have to wonder what happened to the woman who was wearing Leia's native dress before Leia......

I'm just guessing, but I'd wager it belonged to Cindel Towani's mother from the Ewok movies. She was killed by a bunch of aliens at the start of the second movie, not long before Return of the Jedi.

My head-canon for Jar-Jar Binks is that shortly after the end of Episode III, Palpatine had Mas Amedda eliminated as a liability, framed Binks for the assassination, and had him either executed or driven into exile, thus removing a couple of risk points and reinforcing the anti-alien biases he was exploiting.

  (Yes, I know this conflicts with the Wendig novels and the New Canon. But as I've mentioned, I default to Legends over New Canon. It's what I grew up with. I don't resent them scrapping Legends--I'm just not sold on what's replaced it yet.)

I can see you guys need me to play an Ewok in your next campaign to show you how it's done right. Challenge accepted. If they're good enough for Chewbacca, they're good enough for me.

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Not the Goonies, the Ewoks.

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Everybody knows the Goonies "R" good enough.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;979598Ewoks probably ate her. Hell, the end of the battle must have been one giant buffet line.

They WERE going to eat Leia and crew, remember.  For all their faults, the little buggers ate MEAT.

Quote from: Crisis911;979605My group tried Edge of the Empire a few years ago and we hated it. The funky dice created such a strain on me as a GM to constantly come up with complications and boons or whatever. My players also hated interpreting those symbols every time they rolled. No more games with funky dice at our table.

As I've indicated waaaaay back in the beginning of this thread and many many many others - you don't have to "come up" with anything. There is a handy table that will give you mechanical bonuses/penalties without anyone having to spend 1 point of creativity or effort. (gotta save that Strain for real encounters after all).

Quote from: jeff37923;979151I want more.

I want there to be space for tales of the hero who isn't larger than life, but still does the right thing even though it scares him so badly that he pisses himself. I want comedy like the Tag & Bink comics series. I want horror like Red Harvest and Death Troopers.

I want more of what there is less of.

The grandiose galaxy smashing material that you so eloquently describe removes too much of the human element in my view and reduces the stories to superheroics that are hard to connect to when every main character is the Best In The Galaxy. You can overdose on wonderous spectacle in fiction or gaming just like any drug.

That's funny - because most of the games that I run with FFG Star Wars happen to be exactly what you're describing. But all those other elements, the big-top stuff is there too - just mostly in the background. I tend to run games that are people living on the edge of the Republic and Empire, dealing with criminal syndicates, local issues, Hutt Cartels (when they become much more established), Bounty Hunter Syndicates and sometimes just good-ol-fashioned freebooting adventurer stuff in the backdrop of a galactic Cold War.

This current game I'm running right now is the *first* game I've had where someone is playing an actual force-user (Sith).

Quote from: Christopher Brady;979680They WERE going to eat Leia and crew, remember.  For all their faults, the little buggers ate MEAT.

Had ol' George emphasized forest carnivores with a taste for long pig over fucking teddy bears, RotJ would be worth re-watching.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;979756Had ol' George emphasized forest carnivores with a taste for long pig over fucking teddy bears, RotJ would be worth re-watching.

No shit! I would love for them to keep the cuddly appearance too - as long as they showed them ripping people apart and cooking them.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;979756Had ol' George emphasized forest carnivores with a taste for long pig over fucking teddy bears, RotJ would be worth re-watching.

Quote from: tenbones;979757No shit! I would love for them to keep the cuddly appearance too - as long as they showed them ripping people apart and cooking them.

Count me in on that!

Quote from: Black Vulmea;979756Had ol' George emphasized forest carnivores with a taste for long pig over fucking teddy bears, RotJ would be worth re-watching.

Jedi is solid up til Jabba blows up.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;979756Had ol' George emphasized forest carnivores with a taste for long pig over fucking teddy bears, RotJ would be worth re-watching.

It was meant to be kashyyk

Quote from: Voros;979872Jedi is solid up til Jabba blows up.

If we're counting Jello as a solid, yes.

Quote from: Biscuitician;979892It was meant to be kashyyk

Shouldna wasted the Wookie costumes on the Holiday Special.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;979907Shouldna wasted the Wookie costumes on the Holiday Special.

The Holiday Special a discordant note in my adolescence. Although Diane Carroll singing space-porn to me was kind of arousing, it was fucking weird. I'm convinced everyone involved in this show was on acid.

I watch the Holiday special every Xmas, with a six pack close at hand.

I don't think I've ever seen it. I was probably playing D&D when it aired.

Quote from: tenbones;979928The Holiday Special a discordant note in my adolescence. Although Diane Carroll singing space-porn to me was kind of arousing, it was fucking weird. I'm convinced everyone involved in this show was on acid.

Leia clearly was on something. I think coke.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;980018Leia clearly was on something. I think coke.

The rest of the primary SW actors were just high on apathy, so far as I can tell. Certainly Ford looks like he's phoning it in more than high. It's either sad or inspiring to see Bea Arthur, Art Carney, and Harvey Korman clearly doing their best to spin (or "Stir-whip, stir-whip, whip-whip-stir!") dung-covered straw into gold.

Quote from: Voros;980000I watch the Holiday special every Xmas, with a six pack close at hand.

That takes a special breed of person. Like someone that uses baby-pythons as condoms and drinks old stale coffee with mold on it and chases it with a shot of Tabasco.