Quote from: Harlock;914130I agree. I mentioned up-thread other areas groups might gloss over. Specifically I mentioned sex. Now, some people enjoy role-playing sex. Others simply might say, "The farmer's daughter takes you up to her room for the night. Next morning..." Is a group or DM lazy if they simply do a fade to black on sex instead of having vigorous rules with medical, emotional and moral consequences to it? Not at all. It means it's not something they are interested in. It might mean it's a game with a younger player and perhaps inappropriate. Laziness need not factor into such a decision.[/QUOTE

Yep, I agree. I do however remember a time (junior high I believe) when our "Mad Max" post apoc game included more than its share of R - well maybe RR but not quite X rated moments. To the point that every female NPC that appeared had an accompanying photo torn from the pages of one guys' older brothers collection of ..ahem..literature. Wow what the kids nowadays will never experience with a computer and the internet at hand. Real life missions of intrigue and danger to steal soft porn.

Quote from: Harlock;914130I agree. I mentioned up-thread other areas groups might gloss over. Specifically I mentioned sex. Now, some people enjoy role-playing sex. Others simply might say, "The farmer's daughter takes you up to her room for the night. Next morning..." Is a group or DM lazy if they simply do a fade to black on sex instead of having vigorous rules with medical, emotional and moral consequences to it? Not at all. It means it's not something they are interested in. It might mean it's a game with a younger player and perhaps inappropriate. Laziness need not factor into such a decision.

If you're not rolling for a Satisfaction Score, that PC is an awful lazy lover.

My personal opinion is as follows:
First, it depends on the setting and whether orcs can change their nature. In the setting of YAFGC or a certain MMO, it's an evil thing. In the setting of WH40k, it might not be.
Generally, any PC I like wouldn't do that. Let me have one of those explain it in his IC voice.

There are countless people that deserve death, yet live. Countless people who deserved better have been murdered. I cannot change the latter...thus, I should be real careful when changing the former. But I have accepted that I'd probably make some mistakes, so it's not about this.
It's not about them. It's about me. It's about what it would mean to me to kill the defenceless. I'm responsible for what I do, not for what they do later if they live.
I'm an warrior. Killing people who can defend themselves is my job. I can do it even with surprise-they should be careful to avoid this, just like they should be careful to avoid a sword thrust. Sneaking is no different.
But if I come across my worst enemy, helpless, I wouldn't slay nor abuse him.
Because there are lines a man can't cross while calling himself a msn.
Now remember. My enemy is a trained fighter. These are kids.
Try touching them, and I'd cut off your hand.
I'm an warrior, not an executioner.
And I don't list executioners among my friends.

Quote from: Headless;914020I don't think it's fair for a DM the players that question if goblins have an evil nature.  

If they don't have an evil nature pre-determined by setting and the DMs choices, than go for it.  Tough moral delima could lead to some interesting gameplay (although please avoid Turing the players into great white hunters or out right slave owners.)

If they have a nature the DM should not present the players with that choice.  No children, or they all get away, or even they were killed in the battle, collateral damage.  We have no experience of ever meeting any thinking, or speaking being with a immutable nature.  The only people  who have ever said that were evil people who used that line if reason to oppress other human being for their personal benifit.

That said its fun to pretend to kill hordes of bad guys and not feel bad about it.  So by all means slaughter the goblins, just don't then ask moral questions about it.  It's changing genera 's after the battles over, not fair.

And definatly don't assert a premise untrue in our world which because of your position as the DM is unassilible.

What's the point of a fantasy setting that doesn't present conditions you can't encounter in history?

Quote from: Simlasa;914040Yeah, the whole 'evil race' thing never sat well in my mind. Less because of it feeling like some old colonial ideology than my own refusal to buy in on the concept of anything being objectively EVIL... a fantasy than holds no interest for me.
But I can accept the idea of devices and creatures created/bred/trained to be purely destructive... which is still not the same as 'evil'.

Ditto.

Quote from: Bren;914041That sort of trouble has two really obvious solutions.

Three.

Quote from: CRKrueger;914122You sure about that?

OK. Yeah it is kind of funny. So was staying a couple of nights at the big cat rescue. On the other hand hearing lions chuffing and roaring outside the canvas roof of your lodge at night is cool.

Quote from: Harlock;914130I agree. I mentioned up-thread other areas groups might gloss over. Specifically I mentioned sex. Now, some people enjoy role-playing sex.

Depends a lot on the game…and who I am playing it with. SFX>

Quote from: AsenRG;914150Three.

Unless I know that the third one is, I don’t think I can agree that it is actually obvious.

Quote from: AsenRG;914150Because there are lines a man can't cross while calling himself a msn.

So “msn” means real man in Bulgarian?

Quote from: danbuter;914070It's a game, not real life. If you want to kill everything, do it. If you don't, then don't.

Thread winner, right here. Read and heed, people.

Is it trying to kill me (my character that is)? If Yes then return sentiment.
Are its offspring going to grow up and do the same? If yes then put them down now else you are endangering civillians through inaction. If unsure then sit down and puzzle out what to do.

BX and Keep on the Borderlands was a great learning tool in the idea that not everything is evil and not every situation needs to be solved with violence. And that it doesnt matter if its human or some tentacly thingy from the depths.

Quote from: jeff37923;914161Thread winner, right here. Read and heed, people.

Yeah!!! FUCK roleplaying. Who cares about that?!?!? ... oh...

What's the point of a fantasy setting that doesn't present conditions you can't encounter in history?

Snip

What's the point of facing moral problems that can not exist?
Irredeemably evil people.  I say it is im possible for a being to be aware of its self and to have an immutable nature.  


Why would I want to pretend to play through moral dilemmas if I don't except the premise of the delima?   Why would I ever want to play though a moral delima only to try and find the one simple correct answer the DM  or modual designer picked for me?

Quote from: tenbones;914166Yeah!!! FUCK roleplaying. Who cares about that?!?!? ... oh...

I leave the handwringing and pearl clutching for shit that matters.

EDIT: It is very unlikely that I will be gaming with actual goblin parents whose whelp was killed by adventurers or a goblin whelp whose parents were killed during a dungeon crawl, so I am not concerned about that and leave what to do up to player personal choice in my games. I have in the past and likely will again game with players who have been sexually assaulted or raped in their past, so I tread very softly where and how those subjects are used in my games.

Quote from: Omega;914165Is it trying to kill me (my character that is)? If Yes then return sentiment.

Reasonably easy to determine if one restricts "trying to kill me" to "now" or at most sometime in the very near future.

QuoteAre its offspring going to grow up and do the same?

How would a PC know this with 100% (or even with 95%) certainty? What would that certainty, in game, be based on?

And is that certainty based on the fact that your (the PC's) parents, and their parents, and the other elders in your village have all told you since you were knee high to a shrub that the offspring of those weird looking strangers who live over there were all going to try to kill you one day if you gave them the chance?

I would kill them all.

If the DM has put goblin babies there, then he is trying to pull an "oooh MORAL QUANDRY!!!" on us. Don't pull that storygamer shit on us. The only response to such blatant attempts at putting thesp in our hack is to


only in this way will the DM learn from his mistakes.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;914030"Anybody up for discussing whether killing goblin children is evil?"

No.  Not now, not ever.

It's a shitass thing for a referee to put in the game, period.

Indeed.

It takes a real prick of a DM to turn a D&D adventure into Sophie's Choice. Screw that!

Quote from: David Johansen;914078Basically this.  Gary really shouldn't have put combat statistics for them in the Monster Manual.

This is why my dungeons are generally military outposts not homes.

Quote from: Omega;914101I agree there. And I allways wanted to ask Gygax why he included kids in Keep on the Borderland.
The Lizardmen.
The Kobolds.
Both Orc factions.
The Goblins.
The Hobgoblins.
The Bugbears.
The Gnolls.

That module really puts the moral screws on the players. Of these only the bugbears have kids that join in in the combat.

For most of them (goblins, orcs, hobgoblins) he didn't. They are mentioned for the same reason other little details (orcs prefer ugly colors, hobgoblins keep their weapons in good condition) are included: To help the DM embellish his description of the monster, its lair, its lifestyle and what makes them tick. In modules like KotB, the females and young are included whether they are capable of fighting or not because one would expect to find them in a goblin/orc/hobgoblin lair. Ditto for the food and drink and even the furnishings.

I do agree though, that the best way do avoid this nonsense (aside from simply refusing to be a prick of a DM) is to decide as DM that while orc wives and kids exist in your campaign, the orcs the PCs are going to meet will be marauders out to loot, rape, torture and kill, so the PCs face no moral dilemmas in killing them. I also don't include, as part of an evil wizard's lair, the wizard's 6-year-old nephew. I mean sure, even evil wizards have family but there is seldom if ever a good reason to include them in a scenario where they are likely to be killed.

Quote from: Bren;914194Reasonably easy to determine if one restricts "trying to kill me" to "now" or at most sometime in the very near future.

How would a PC know this with 100% (or even with 95%) certainty? What would that certainty, in game, be based on?

And is that certainty based on the fact that your (the PC's) parents, and their parents, and the other elders in your village have all told you since you were knee high to a shrub that the offspring of those weird looking strangers who live over there were all going to try to kill you one day if you gave them the chance?

1: Right. Personally due to BX D&D I restrict that to the "now" because while one set of orcs might try to kill you. The next might want to trade.

2: This was a tough one that rarely got resolved.

3: Usually through observation and experience. Never trust rumours! Are Goblins just weird people with a deep abiding grudge against  Dwarves? Or are they little dwarf seeking missiles on legs that are pre-programmed to kill on sight no matter what you say or do? We didnt even know goblins would flip out untill much later when we got a new player with a dwarf character in the party. This left us wondering if we'd done the right thing sparing and even trading with goblin tribes? Worse when later we visited a dwarven citadel and found they had been wiped out by goblins.

Quote from: Elfdart;914203For most of them (goblins, orcs, hobgoblins) he didn't. They are mentioned for the same reason other little details (orcs prefer ugly colors, hobgoblins keep their weapons in good condition) are included: To help the DM embellish his description of the monster, its lair, its lifestyle and what makes them tick. In modules like KotB, the females and young are included whether they are capable of fighting or not because one would expect to find them in a goblin/orc/hobgoblin lair. Ditto for the food and drink and even the furnishings.

Thats that I guessed was the reason. World in motion. And yeah. Very few monster young in D&D have been statted out.

Quote from: Omega;914211Worse when later we visited a dwarven citadel and found they had been wiped out by goblins.

On the other hand, you could have visited the dwarves, only to find that in the meantime, the goblin cave complex was wiped out by dwarves.

Hey this looks like those wooden flutes we traded to the goblins. I wonder what the dwarves gave them in exchange? Hey, since the dwarves seem to like our wooden flutes, maybe we can trade directly with them. :eek: