Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;915167I have to quibble with everyone saying that the cosmology of the world should be made obvious to the players.

It's not like we know in real life if God is real or if absolute morality exists. Why would the PCs.

The effect of the world cosmology is what would be obvious to the players. You are right in that they may not know all the gritty details but they sure will see the consequences of those details.

As far as the rest of the thread goes, I am not sure what people thinking what they are trying to do. Our own history and current times has wrestled with every one of these issues that people bring up. And there are just as many answers.

For the purpose of a leisure activity what is helpful is understand that if I pick X assumptions are the consequences for my setting.

So if I have a form of absolute good and evil as part of my cosmology what are the form in which it can take. What worked for suspension of disbelief and what hasn't worked. The same with the other alternative bandied about in this thread.

Just realize that whatever is picked is an arbitrary choice by the referee for purposes of entertainment. And that choices matter only in the parts that will translate into what the players see and can interact with. Specifically the behavior of how various NPC characters. Beyond that it is just for the referee own enjoyment and has little piratical impact on the campaign.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;915264The D&D gods aren't like the Biblical god though. They're more like the Greek gods. In other words, not absolute arbiters of morality but just basically humans on a larger scale. So just because God #94854984 believes something doesn't mean it's objective.

This depends entirely upon the setting you're talking about and the GM. Campaigns and their cosmologies vary greatly.  There are monotheistic campaigns, and there are also campaigns where polytheistic gods ARE supposed to represent absolutes to the characters as defined by the setting or GM.  That doesnt mean those definitions will match what the players or GM thinks, but within the game setting they can represent absolutes of good, evil, concepts, etc...whatever the particular case.

An absolute Good vs Evil question does not always stem from a GM's "opinion" and is not doomed to be a misguided misinterpretation, substandard, stupid, or any of the other various labels being thrown around, no matter what the absolute we're talking about may be.  A setting's absolute can just be that setting's absolute.  Killing goblins could be an absolute good or an absolute evil, depending on the setting, the god, the GM...and the campaign in which either of these conditions existed could be really interesting or really lame, again depending on the circumstances. An absolute is simply a condition.  The collective ability of the players to set aside their own biases and embrace the conditions of the campaign world is just as much of a potential impediment to the success of such a campaign as the GM's. A GM's "policing" of absolutes can be tedious and even ridiculous, but some GMs are insane geniuses and sometimes campaign absolutes can be surprisingly interesting. I'd be a lot more interested in hearing about what works and doesnt work where absolutes are concerned.

Note: I dont notice anyone arguing that absolutes are always superior or that relativism is always a problem, but I notice an ironic amount of opinion amounting to "absolutism is always inferior."

Quote from: estar;915388Specifically the behavior of how various NPC characters. Beyond that it is just for the referee own enjoyment and has little piratical impact on the campaign.

Not if you worship the God of Pirates.

Quote from: Opaopajr;915293Cash does not equal usury.

So you have no idea how the monetary system in the modern world works or came about. Fun.

If you (general you) aren't actually claiming that the decrees of your gameworld gods have anything to do with real world good and evil, why are we having this discussion of absolute GOOD and EVIL?

In my experience (there I go with those qualifiers again) when a GM takes the role of a god of good and punishes a character, it is an impromptu judgement that the PC has transgressed against the GM's own standards. If that's not the case, why not codify what is allowable and avoid the case by case judgement calls?

"The god of righteous battle condemns back attacks, even if it is to save an innocent." Stuff like that is where you get interesting moral questions much more than, "Can you guess what the GM thinks is GOOD?"

Quote from: Manzanaro;915402If you (general you) aren't actually claiming that the decrees of your gameworld gods have anything to do with real world good and evil, why are we having this discussion of absolute GOOD and EVIL?

In my experience (there I go with those qualifiers again) when a GM takes the role of a god of good and punishes a character, it is an impromptu judgement that the PC has transgressed against the GM's own standards. If that's not the case, why not codify what is allowable and avoid the case by case judgement calls?

"The god of righteous battle condemns back attacks, even if it is to save an innocent." Stuff like that is where you get interesting moral questions much more than, "Can you guess what the GM thinks is GOOD?"

LOL this is some open-ended stuff right here. My mind! My miiiiiind!

Good Lord, if you guys thought all this time Absolute Good = Absolute Good in...
1. Our Earth
2. Middle Earth
3. The Culture
4. Westeros
5. Greyhawk
6. Every possible reality ever known...

No wonder we couldn't get anywhere, because basically you think I'm saying that my own personal interpretation of what's going on in Our Earth is what's the reality that should be imposed on Every Setting?

Ishtar/Hieroneous/The Lord of Light and even Mighty Crom on His Mountain Wept, but that couldn't be farther from the truth.

Every setting is unique unto itself.  There may not even be an Absolute Good in Setting A, but there might be in Setting B.

To be honest though, this does kinda bring us back to my idea that you have had some experiences with some dramatically shitty GMs in your day.

Quote from: David Johansen;915333If it's not a threat there's no XP.  So the real question is how much you can get for them on the open market as GP = XP.  Like cattle, children of a certain age can carry themselves.  You didn't think the Babylonians carried off the children of Israel because they were cute did you?

I like the cut of your jib, sir.

Quote from: David Johansen;915333If it's not a threat there's no XP.  So the real question is how much you can get for them on the open market as GP = XP.  Like cattle, children of a certain age can carry themselves.  You didn't think the Babylonians carried off the children of Israel because they were cute did you?

Quote from: jeff37923;915413I like the cut of your jib, sir.

Since in D&D you get more XP for Gold then you do for killing, then I guess D&D isn't supposed to be all about combat, it's all about Slavery, because you'll get more XP for capturing everything you see and selling it on the open market.

Quote from: Manzanaro;915402If you (general you) aren't actually claiming that the decrees of your gameworld gods have anything to do with real world good and evil, why are we having this discussion of absolute GOOD and EVIL?

Why would you be more interested in having this discussion if you thought that GMs were actually claiming that the decrees of their gameworld gods had anything to do with real world good and evil?

And it brings to mind to me, Krueger, that you're being inauthentic. You're the one who started bringing in discussion of real world religions and their application to D&D.

Now suddenly it's, "I was talking about CROM you fools."

And really, how many game settings have the premise that, "Good and evil aren't the same in this setting as they are in reality"?

Silliness.

What is different isn't the nature of good and evil. It's their application.

So you might say, "You know how in reality killing people is viewed as wrong or at least morally questionable? Well in this world, there are beings who are inalterably evil, and it is completely GOOD to kill such beings. It's like killing demons or zombies".

Just to append to this? Game of Thrones isn't powerful because Good and Evil are different there than in our world. It's powerful because they're NOT different.

Quote from: CRKrueger;915415Since in D&D you get more XP for Gold then you do for killing, then I guess D&D isn't supposed to be all about combat, it's all about Slavery, because you'll get more XP for capturing everything you see and selling it on the open market.

You can also get EXP for NOT killing people. Such as sparing someones life, sneaking past them, negotiating, etc.

Quote from: TristramEvans;915401So you have no idea how the monetary system in the modern world works or came about. Fun.

Just a quibble, the Temple was turned into a market with vendors selling wares, Doves for sacrifices (basically buying your favor for god from the priests), money changers, etc... but the parable if you were, I always learned, was that it was turning a temple into an Open Market, a place of commerce, haggling, and profit instead of worship is what caused him to flip his shit, not specifically the economics of tacking a surcharge onto moneychanging or having Wimpy pay the priests double on Tuesday for a Dove today.

Jesus had two commandments, the first one was "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind."  Turning a temple of worship into a garage sale pretty much takes a gigantic dump all over that one.  Actually pretty darn simple to see why he was pissed.

Quote from: CRKrueger;915415Since in D&D you get more XP for Gold then you do for killing, then I guess D&D isn't supposed to be all about combat, it's all about Slavery, because you'll get more XP for capturing everything you see and selling it on the open market.

And by taking these whelps out of that hideously dangerous dungeon environment and away from their obviously incompetent parents who put them there, the characters are doing a Good Deed.....