Anyone want to start any Traveller based discussions?
Rules, setting?
Can't say much about the original setting, as the only Traveller campaign I played was a home-made. The d20 rules were ok, though.
Let's talk about Virus Pirate Fleets that threaten worlds with near-C-rocks and other fleets with jump torpedoes!
We'll have to decide wether it shall be a small or large ship universe fleet.
:D
"Virus" was in megatraveller, right? I never got into that genre', I started in gurps traveller 3e, then got GTIW which was a good product except for the inexcusable lack of ANY weapons or equipment, and the tantrum that sjg thru when people criticized them for it.
I like the fundamental idea of traveller, and the setting and backgrounds are excellenty. It could have done with some more original aliens, but you can add your own to taste, no problem.
My post was totally in-jokey.
Virus is T:New Era.
And the topics I combined are the most loathsome on the Traveller mailing list.
A so-called stand alone product called Interstellar Wars has no stats for guns? Buh? Me, I am one of the few New Classic Guys, who became a fan of the original game when the reprints started rolling out. But I cherry pick stuff from other editions. For example, I have Gurps Traveller Aliens 4 for extra cantina creatures.
The Fifth Edition that Marc Miller is hoping to release next year is about the only new game I plan to buy anytime soon.
Quote from: jrientsA so-called stand alone product called Interstellar Wars has no stats for guns? Buh? Me, I am one of the few New Classic Guys, who became a fan of the original game when the reprints started rolling out. But I cherry pick stuff from other editions. For example, I have Gurps Traveller Aliens 4 for extra cantina creatures.
The Fifth Edition that Marc Miller is hoping to release next year is about the only new game I plan to buy anytime soon.
Yeah, I just picked up GURPS 4e not too long ago, and really was thinking hard about picking up Insterstellar Wars. But I heard there were a few missing bits (like the guns, refueling/gasgiants rules), and for every person that seems to love it to death comes another who has some gripes. So the jury is still out. I still have my CT to fall back on.
I, too, am looking forward to T5.
No refueling rules either? The fuel rules strike me as one of the lynchpins driving the official setting, almost as important as the limitations of the jump drive itself.
Longstanding traveller fan here.
MegaTraveller and/or T20 are pretty much what I've settled into these days.
Hated TNE/the Virus.
Loved Chris Foss' art in T4, but the system made me weep.
Never been a big gurps fan, but some of the GT books are excellent fluff or background material for an MT or T20 based game.
Played Traveller(back when I was young, there was only ONE version of Traveller and we liked it! Dadgummit) once back in the day and we ended up taking over/piloting the Kinnunir around blowing shit up...ahhh..good times.
The Classic Reprints is a great series and they are a great introduction (or re-intro for me) to Traveller. I really like the tookit feel from creating ships to creating sectors and planet. The Spinward Marches are the Sci-fi equivalent to the Wilderlands of High Fantasy.
I really want to run Classic Traveller in a "PCs have a ship and explore, tool around, buy low/sell high, blow stuff up" mode, but haven't had time to get it off the ground. Damn you Father Time!!!!
I am a big fan of Traveller, and I am working on a campaign that I will be running any time now...:p
It seems that the discussion has forked between system and setting, so here are my thoughts on both.
System: GURPS Traveller (3rd) has been my default for a while now. I kinda like GURPS for most things, and I strip it down somewhat to make parts of it, particularly combat, flow faster. I haven't looked at Interstellar Wars, but I like the changes made in 4th Ed.
Classic Traveller was just a little too bare bones for me, and Megatraveller left me unenthusiastic for some reason. GURPS just works, and there is a TON of support material for it.
Setting: I prefer my sci-fi gritty (and I have a predisposition towards the apocalyptic) so my favorite Traveller settings are the Hard Times and The New Era. Virus was a bit of a deus ex machina plot device to crash the Third Imperium, but in my opinion it sort of needed crashing. The Classic Traveller universe just sort of grew organically and quickly got out of control, with most versions coming after it just trying to scale down the focus so that PCs could be relevant. In that respect, I really liked TNE. It gave you the opportunity to either play a "bootstraps and bailing wire" kind of game in the Reformation Coalition, or you could play standard Traveller (Merchants of Death, we call it) in a largely untouched Spinward Marches, which was always the best developed part of the Imperium anyway.
BTW, for my money one of the finest supplements for any sci-fi game is the Magatraveller Hard Times book. It rocks hard! Any time I need to destroy an interstellar society it is my go-to book...:D
TGA
I've only recently gotten into Traveller. After a bit of review reading and perusing used books when I found them, I settled on Classic Traveller (via the FFE reprints) as my poison. Mostly because it's a simple system that is reminiscent of the old games I started out on in the early and mid 80s (my older brothers grudgingly let me play in their group, so I got started young!).
The thing that's astounded me since I've started designing my campaign (space pirates!) is how beholden people are to the official Third Imperium universe. I figured the world creation rules were there for a reason and launched right into designing my own setting, using the OTU as an idea mine (there are enough assumptions hard-coded into the rules that would probably make any homebrew bear a strong resemblance to the 3I). But then, I really dislike using official settings; there's always some smartass out there who will quote canon just to tick a GM off, and I had my fill of that after an abortive Greyhawk campaign years back.
Anyway, I'm completely in love with Classic Trav, and I've been on a mad collecting crusade ever since my late discovery. Just can't wait to get my game up and running so I can put all this stuff to use (and justify the costs to my SO!).
I own all the Traveller rulesets, although Classic Traveller is still probably my favorite (warts, house-rules, and all).
I disliked TNE/Virus, although ironically I loved Hard Times (a major inspiration for my Unisytem space-opera PBP game).
I loved it in college. Specifically I loved the idea of a "merchant trader" game where we spent a lot of damn time between games going "hey GM, Whats the price for gems on that system bordering ours? Because I think I need to load my ship up and head out there if I think I can get a good deal.."
Seriously, the merchant trader game part of Traveller was so much fun. I had like a 40 page character sheet. One page was my stats, 2 pages were my ship, and 37 pages detailed my sprawling merchant empire of buying and selling contacts and commodities across the known galaxy.
QuoteThe thing that's astounded me since I've started designing my campaign (space pirates!) is how beholden people are to the official Third Imperium universe.
A lot of fans take the setting deadly seriously. Me, I'm working on sort of a hybrid that's part official setting and part gee-whiz pulpy space opera with exploding planets and giant space amoeba.
Quote from: KenHRThe thing that's astounded me since I've started designing my campaign (space pirates!) is how beholden people are to the official Third Imperium universe. I figured the world creation rules were there for a reason and launched right into designing my own setting, using the OTU as an idea mine (there are enough assumptions hard-coded into the rules that would probably make any homebrew bear a strong resemblance to the 3I). But then, I really dislike using official settings; there's always some smartass out there who will quote canon just to tick a GM off, and I had my fill of that after an abortive Greyhawk campaign years back.
I like to spin my own settings as well. But the 3I is one of two settings that really clicks with me, because it gives me a nice combination of supporting material and ideas, and freedom to create. I rolled up my own version of reavers' deep, and had a rollicking campaign there.
For T20, I bought and use the Gateway to Destiny setting, which proved a fun basis for a short campaign and some gameday and gencon games.
I did toy with the idea of making a T20 setting based on Masters of Orion, and I have seen other Traveller players roll their own settings.
That said, planet gen seems dated to me, as do 2D starmaps. Yeah, I've heard all the handwaves -- even made up my own. At the end of the day, I think I have come to prefer realistic 3d starmaps set in our local region of space for a space setting. I have yet to see a game do a really good job of this.
I still wait for a better, more modern successor to Traveller.
Quote from: jrientsA lot of fans take the setting deadly seriously. Me, I'm working on sort of a hybrid that's part official setting and part gee-whiz pulpy space opera with exploding planets and giant space amoeba.
Yeah, some of the discussions I've seen on my short time on the TML show how dedicated people are to the 3I. God bless 'em, but I find the entire setting too large and unwieldy. The original three books seem (in my limited experience with the system so far) to fit best with a cozier "small ships" setting: 2-3 subsectors (a full sector at most). High Guard (blech) and its ilk seem to have sprung up along with the 11K+ world Imperium.
Quote from: Caesar SlaadThat said, planet gen seems dated to me, as do 2D starmaps. Yeah, I've heard all the handwaves -- even made up my own. At the end of the day, I think I have come to prefer realistic 3d starmaps set in our local region of space for a space setting. I have yet to see a game do a really good job of this.
Just curious, but why do you feel that a 3d starmap would be better suited or more meaningful that the 2d maps Traveller generates/uses? Your comment just got me thinking about which one I would prefer. After giving it some thought, I decided I would probably want a 2d one. After all, I would be using it to get from point A to point B mostly, or to look at trading routes, or something else. The third dimension wouldn't really add any additional information. Sort of like today's road map. I guess they could make it three dimensional, but why?
I love Traveller from way, way back. I have a ton of the CT black books. I had some of the Megatraveller books, but never thought much of them. I was really jazzed to see SJG revive Traveller with GURPS, even though I'm not much of a GURPS fan. I like T20, but I feel the game might be better served with a d20 Modern/Future upgrade.
The Imperium itself is OK. I don't like the royal family storylines in general, the ones that get sent out in the SJG Traveller news emails. They just seem pointless to me.
The main beef I have with the Imperium is that it's way too big. Actually, I don't have a problem with the size of the Imperium, really, just the travel time involved to get from one end to the other. While I understand that this helps make for a more wide-open setting, which makes for a good campaign area, the logic of it begins to fall apart after a while. It takes literally years to travel from one side of the Imperium to the other. Some might see that as a strength, and I can dig that, but I prefer to have the travel time be in months rather than years. Jump times are, what, a week each, regardless of distance. I think I'll make that a day, if I ever get a chance to run the game again.
Quote from: rcsampleJust curious, but why do you feel that a 3d starmap would be better suited or more meaningful that the 2d maps Traveller generates/uses?
Let's just say it's the simulationist/immesionist in my. Operating in 3 dimensions is a significant detail, and cutting it out buggers with my suspension of disbeleif.
QuoteThe third dimension wouldn't really add any additional information. Sort of like today's road map. I guess they could make it three dimensional, but why?
A third dimension is rarely significant in roadmaps, since roads are entities in which most movement is confined to a 2d surface. Not so in 3d space.
Quote from: Caesar SlaadI like to spin my own settings as well. But the 3I is one of two settings that really clicks with me, because it gives me a nice combination of supporting material and ideas, and freedom to create. I rolled up my own version of reavers' deep, and had a rollicking campaign there.
3I does have that wide-open feel that the best older RPG supplements (e.g. Wilderlands of High Fantasy, World of Greyhawk) had. The sheer number of planets, etc. means you'll always have room to play. My experiences with "canonistas" in various other RPG settings have colored my outlook somewhat, though (and that's totally my problem, I realize).
Quote from: Caesar SlaadThat said, planet gen seems dated to me, as do 2D starmaps. Yeah, I've heard all the handwaves -- even made up my own. At the end of the day, I think I have come to prefer realistic 3d starmaps set in our local region of space for a space setting. I have yet to see a game do a really good job of this.
I still wait for a better, more modern successor to Traveller.
The planet gen is dated, true, and I'm realizing this more and more as I do my own research to prep my game (damn, everything I learned in school about stars and planets is ALL WRONG...and it wasn't that long ago...well, now that I think about it was sort of a long time ago...). But it does convey the feel of '70s era literary sci-fi quite well.
I totally understand the desire for 3-d starmaps, but am willing to settle with the simple and pragmatic 2-d solution.
As far as modern successors go, I've heard good things about Hard Nova II and Cold Space by Flying Mice. Still have yet to check them out, however.
2d starmaps is Traveller's equivalent of 'Elf is a class' in Basic D&D. It's nice and simple but it drives some people nuts.
Quote from: KenHRAs far as modern successors go, I've heard good things about Hard Nova II and Cold Space by Flying Mice. Still have yet to check them out, however.
I can heartily recommend both.
Quote from: jrients2d starmaps is Traveller's equivalent of 'Elf is a class' in Basic D&D. It's nice and simple but it drives some people nuts.
QFT.
Quote from: KenHRThe planet gen is dated, true But it does convey the feel of '70s era literary sci-fi quite well.
In addition, replace "planet gen" with "starship computers/programming system"...
Quote from: rcsampleIn addition, replace "planet gen" with "starship computers/programming system"...
My solution to any conflicts between Traveller and realworld science or technology is to approach Traveller as a retro vision of the future. The setting isn't Life in The Year 5627, it's
Life in The Year 5627 as Imagined in 1977. This one mental gymnastic saves a lot of heartache over things like nanotechnology and internets and allows me to concentrate on what really concerns me: punching space pirates in the face.
Quote from: jrientsMy solution to any conflicts between Traveller and realworld science or technology is to approach Traveller as a retro vision of the future. The setting isn't Life in The Year 5627, it's Life in The Year 5627 as Imagined in 1977. This one mental gymnastic saves a lot of heartache over things like nanotechnology and internets and allows me to concentrate on what really concerns me: punching space pirates in the face.
I've never had a particular problem with computer tech in traveller.
First, patching into different world's net's has been a standard activities in games dating back to at least MT by my recollection. Some of the fuzzier aspects of this activity got sorted out as the internet matured.
Second, I build systems that go on naval ships for a living. Despite the forward rush of technology, various sensors and specialized systems exist that don't cotton to moore's law, and moore's law becomes more about adding capabilities than reducing size. So I swat aside complaints about "mainframes on starships" with casual ease.
There is only One Traveller, and the LBBs the Gospel. :)
I started playing RPGs with D&D, about 1979. It was fun.
Then I discovered Traveller about 1981 - it was transformative.
I've far preferred Sci-Fi (gaming and literature) ever since, and I blame CT for that. Its still my all-time favorite game, for such a simple but open-ended ability to do anything you want... from trading across the galaxy to punching Pirates in the face. But hey, why not both? :)
And I still love the random character generation, including death. I spent HOURS rolling up character after character that never saw the light of day. Same with systems, subsectors, and sectors. It was kind of like exploring whole new worlds for hours at a stretch, even if you were all by yourself.
Hell, I may break out the reprints and make a subsector just for old-time's sake.
As to the setting - meh. We played it before "The Imperium" became the ossified grognard's playground it is today (this coming from a guy with more than a few Traveller writing credits under his belt). If I run anything using Traveller again, it'll be in a home-made subsector or two.
Quote from: jrientsMy solution to any conflicts between Traveller and realworld science or technology is to approach Traveller as a retro vision of the future. The setting isn't Life in The Year 5627, it's Life in The Year 5627 as Imagined in 1977. This one mental gymnastic saves a lot of heartache over things like nanotechnology and internets and allows me to concentrate on what really concerns me: punching space pirates in the face.
That's a good way to look at it, but...there was science fiction of the time that posited advanced computer technology. My favorite example comes from James Hogan's "Giants" novels. The Ganymedans used a computer system which was quite a bit like what has been envisioned for our own future. Matter of fact, in some ways it bore a strong resemblance to the computer tech used in the Matrix flicks (though benign in temperament), complete with virtual reality. My point being that Traveller at the time it was first published had examples to draw from for futuristic computer tech in scifi literature. It could simply be a matter of Marc Miller not reading particular scifi books.
Quote from: jrientsThe setting isn't Life in The Year 5627, it's Life in The Year 5627 as Imagined in 1977.
That's why I left in the last part of KenHR's comment about "convey the feel of '70s era literary sci-fi quite well."....
Quote from: Caesar SlaadSo I swat aside complaints about "mainframes on starships" with casual ease.
None of these are really complaints...just personal bug-a-boo's, immersion benders, if you will... I was bothered more by the small amount of programs computers of the future (according to Traveller) could hold in their "RAM" or "hard drive" than the size of the computer. This may bother me due to my profession (a software engineer) more than it may bother others.
Quote from: rcsampleNone of these are really complaints...just personal bug-a-boo's, immersion benders, if you will... I was bothered more by the small amount of programs computers of the future (according to Traveller) could hold in their "RAM" or "hard drive" than the size of the computer. This may bother me due to my profession (a software engineer) more than it may bother others.
In case it slipped by, I'm a software engineer who works on real time and industrial systems. I work on a real time system that has the dozens or hundreds of small applications that exist on many UNIX-ish systems. But the system I is dedicated to running one major application (well, technically, it's mutliple applications that talk to each other to do one job, BID), and it consumes most available resources on that system.
I don't think you should take "programs" as meaning all the little things like vi or ps or notepad or gcc when thinking about these "programs". You should be thinking about the major application that does the system's job.
Quote from: jrientsMe, I am one of the few New Classic Guys, who became a fan of the original game when the reprints started rolling out.
New Classic guys...I guess I'm one, too, 'cept I clued in 'round 2002 or so,
ten whole damn years after my buddy Kyle gave me the LBBs as a graduation present.
Ten years. 'The hell's wrong with me?
But, yeah, I loves me some
Traveller. Classic with a dash of Mega, hold the Virus, thanks.
You know, there ARE ways for an intelligent, creative GM to spin the traveller BG to make it a little less implausible.
For example, nanotech. What if early in the traveller setting some nanotech got out of control and wiped out a whole planet via the dreaded 'grey goo" scenario? That might put the kabosh on nanotech R&D for a while.....
As for AI, what if you had a frankenstein/skynet situation arise and one of the damn things nearly wiped out humanity, or humaniti? Again, it could discourage that sort of technology real quick.
As to labor, maybe having billions of peeps laying aroung with no jobs is, I dunno, maybe a badthing for society, y'know, and maybe laws regulate automation to keep most peeps employed and feeling useful?
S. John Ross' arrival of the board reminded me of what I was going to post in this thread:
Travelling Light: A Risus Conversion For Traveller (http://www.freelancetraveller.com/features/rules/convert/risustrav.html).
Fun stuff. ;)
Burnt the heretic!
Thou shalt not dilute Marc's Gospel by setting HIS word betwixt rules like these!
Roll up a sector immedeately to repent!
Quote from: SettembriniBurnt the heretic!
Thou shalt not dilute Marc's Gospel by setting HIS word betwixt rules like these!
Roll up a sector immedeately to repent!
I'm already excommunicated from the High Guard--er, Church. Do yer worst. :p
Seriously, I like Traveller in Risus. It's good for getting in a little Traveller fix, especially for limited arcs or one-shots.
Quote from: Dominus NoxAs for AI, what if you had a frankenstein/skynet situation arise and one of the damn things nearly wiped out humanity, or humaniti? Again, it could discourage that sort of technology real quick.
AI is sort of a sticky wicket for me, conceptually. It seems like so many dangerous jobs (that adventurer PC types would have) would fall into the province of AIs, which sort of robs typical space opera heroes of the glory.
I guess one solution is to make a game where the PCs are all AIs.
How soon will we realistically be able to create a true AI, anyway? It's been "ten years down the road" for decades now. I assume that it's pretty much the same in Traveller: replicating the nonlinear, associative thought and learning processes of the brain is several orders of magnitude more difficult than anyone imagined. There are computers that can crunch huge amounts of data and make forecasts or basic decisions based on that, but they're not quite "intelligent."
As for nanotech, I'm assuming that it's present everywhere, but such a commonplace thing that no one notices anymore.
With regard to labor, I like the psychological approach mentioned by Dominus Nox. Maybe automation has made their work easier (four-hour workday? and rioting in the streets when the government extends it to six!), but the people need work to keep them from feeling restless, nurturing revolutionary thoughts!
Quote from: Dominus NoxAs for AI, what if you had a frankenstein/skynet situation arise and one of the damn things nearly wiped out humanity, or humaniti? Again, it could discourage that sort of technology real quick.
There is actually something that could be used as a starting point for this in early Traveller canon. SPOILERS AHEAD:
In the Kinunir, the first Traveller adventure, the experimental computer system in the titular ship pulled a HAL 9000 and killed its crew. If the ship is salvaged, perhaps it could infect any computer system it comes in contact with - with itself. That is, in the third (pretty bad) Terminator movie, Skynet turned out to be software rather than a mainframe, which proceeded to replicate itself in just about every computer in the country. Perhaps the Kinunir's AI could do the same.
Signal GK also presents a pretty neat idea - a self-aware computer chip, derived from a silicon-based lifeform whcih was pretty similar to living computer chips. Perhaps they would want to replicate themselves and create a society of living machines - to do so, they'd have to gain control of (that is, be installed in) the machines of humaniti.