But...the thing is, it hasn't gotten more complex.  They've moved the bar up (or down) on advantage costs and disads, and added more powers that most people had already thought of in their games as "standard".  It's not like a "difference between 4e and 1e D&D" thing, really.

At least I don't see it that way.

Love the flexibility, the ability to craft anything you want.

In practice, too many players just don't grok the power system.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;470873But...the thing is, it hasn't gotten more complex.

Yeah, it really hasn't.  I've never seen first edition core, but I played from 2nd edition onwards and had a number of 1st edition supplements.  There have been additions (more powers, longer skill list, more Advantages and Limitations) but the core mechanics haven't changed in five editions.

And I LOLed at the "no, tactical wargames are lighter than Champs" comment :-)

Champions is what it is, but what really annoys me about it is not the game itself but rather the whole concept of point-buy that it inflicted on the industry.

I loved it when I played Champions. Its biggest weakness, IMO, is that it takes a GM with a real knowledge of the complex system AND a willingness to enforce the point buy restrictions and the disadvantages that are purchased.

The Disadvantages are where the chance for real RolePlay come into the system. I've been in some really fun RP sessions with Champions characters. One of the best was when this one Hero got sued by some bad guys who he captured. He had a Code vs. Killing and used a Stun Only energy attack(did ONLY Stun Damage, no Killing Damage). His secret ID was as a Lawyer. So, the GM thought it would be a good subplot to have him sued by this activist group and a sleazy lawyer. The player was all frustrated because there was no way in the system for the attack to do any killing wounds but the GM played it up that he had to go to court to prove it, with "Expert Witnesses"

The Hero prevailed in the end but all of us on the Hero team got called as witnesses to testify about all the battles we had witnessed.

I've been through other RP sessions with Champions, some entire sessions, some just a side note during a session. IMO, it all depends on the GM(imagine that) if you use the RP elements built into the system or not.

Champions isn't my personal GM style(I dislike Point Buy) but I'd play it again.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;470873But...the thing is, it hasn't gotten more complex.  They've moved the bar up (or down) on advantage costs and disads, and added more powers that most people had already thought of in their games as "standard".  It's not like a "difference between 4e and 1e D&D" thing, really.

At least I don't see it that way.

I'd agree that it's not like 4e and the original 1974 D&D.  However, the 2nd edition Champions rules were 80 pages.  The current 6th edition rules are 464 + 320 = 784 pages.  Even though there is a lot of consistency in the core mechanics between these editions, I think there is a big change in how everything is handled.  Even though the basics are all the same, it is more complex because of all the nitty-gritty details that were added.  

I'm fond of HERO, but I find that it has a really difficult learning curve - especially in how to design characters.  Right now I'm on vacation with my family and my son and nephews (9 to 11 years old) have insisted that I run the PS238 RPG, which is a stripped-down version of 5th edition Champions.  It's going OK, but there are definitely some tricky points.

Bleh, FASERIP is about the only game in the genre I'll play. Blood Of Heroes is crap, Champions needs a physics degree, and all others suck eggs.

Quote from: jhkim;470904Even though the basics are all the same, it is more complex because of all the nitty-gritty details that were added.

I see what you're getting at, and Champions did explicitly say at one point that it was better to have a rule and not use than not have it when you needed it.

I think that the game has not gotten more complex (in terms of adding more rule subsystems which interact) but rather that the list of things in each subsystem (like skills, powers, Advantages, etc.) has increased, which leads to a kind of analysis paralysis/paradox of choice problem.

Then again, I'm only passing familiar with 5th and 6th ed.  Have they actually added a lot of new rules in those editions?

Quote from: shalvayez;470905Champions needs a physics degree, and all others suck eggs.

Actually a physics degree is useless in Champions.  Grade nine math perhaps if you insist on stacking a lot of power modifiers.  GURPS on the other hand really does benefit from some basic physics.

All others sucking eggs is a bit broad in any case.  Personally I never could stand FASERIP but it's a matter of taste.

Quote from: daniel_ream;470925Then again, I'm only passing familiar with 5th and 6th ed.  Have they actually added a lot of new rules in those editions?

Having played since the dawn of 4th edition - when many of the guys at the table were using 2nd and 3rd edition stuff, still - I can tell you what they've done is they've gone through and taken a lot of powers that were spread out over quite a great many books, compiled them into the one big book, and then added even a few on top of those.  They've gotten more verbose in their explanations of the rules...but they really haven't fundamentally added more rules.  Like, up to version 5, PD and ED are CON/5 - period.  That goes all the way back to 1st edition.  OCV is still figured the same way, so is DCV.  Overall levels still cost 10 points...

No, what they've added are little (and big!) powers here and there.  But rules?  No.  You can get Champions: Sidekick (or it may be Hero Sidekick) that is 90% of what you need to play - it just doesn't have as many examples and as many pre-built powers and skills.  It weighs in about 1/5th the pagecount.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;470936They've gotten more verbose in their explanations of the rules...but they really haven't fundamentally added more rules.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;470936You can get Champions: Sidekick (or it may be Hero Sidekick) that is 90% of what you need to play - it just doesn't have as many examples and as many pre-built powers and skills.  It weighs in about 1/5th the pagecount.

Well...  Champions 6th is 784 pages in two volumes.  The current version of Sidekick is called the "HERO System Basic Rulebook" and is 138 pages.  So there are 646 extra pages in the current full rules compared to basic.  

I would sort of agree with your first statement, that the extra space is a more verbose explanation that have the same core mechanics.  However, your latter statement implies that the vast bulk of the full rules is examples, pre-built powers, and skills.  I don't think that's true.  Skills are longer, but are still only 44 pages total.  Pre-built powers in the sidebars are no more than 10% of the Power Descriptions section - maybe 25 pages if you put them all together.  The vast bulk of the extra stuff are those more verbose rules that discuss special cases, options, and so forth.

I shall now present the only thing you need to know to like Hero System, from the page 334 sidebar:

Throwing Badger: Ranged Killing Attack 1d6, Constant (+1/2); (22 Active Points), Obvious Accessible Focus (It's a badger; -1), Range based on STR (-1/4). Total Cost: 10 points.

Yes, one of the example powers is a Throwing Badger. Bask in the awesome. *Basks*

How it works? You throw it, it attacks as long as you pay attention to it, and it's a badger. Horrible complicated, I know, but that's the Hero System for you.

(Well, ok, you wait till your Phase and Initiative, make an attack role that no-one who champions THAC0 can possibly find reason to complain about, then roll 1d6 damage if you hit. That's Body (Health) damage; then multiply by 1d3 for Stun damage. Pay 2 Endurance then and every one of your Phases until you want your Badger to stop auto-hitting)

You must all be terribly confused by now.

Quote from: Narf the Mouse;471047I shall now present the only thing you need to know to like Hero System, from the page 334 sidebar:

Throwing Badger: Ranged Killing Attack 1d6, Constant (+1/2); (22 Active Points), Obvious Accessible Focus (It's a badger; -1), Range based on STR (-1/4). Total Cost: 10 points.

Yes, one of the example powers is a Throwing Badger. Bask in the awesome. *Basks*

How it works? You throw it, it attacks as long as you pay attention to it, and it's a badger. Horrible complicated, I know, but that's the Hero System for you.

(Well, ok, you wait till your Phase and Initiative, make an attack role that no-one who champions THAC0 can possibly find reason to complain about, then roll 1d6 damage if you hit. That's Body (Health) damage; then multiply by 1d3 for Stun damage. Pay 2 Endurance then and every one of your Phases until you want your Badger to stop auto-hitting)

You must all be terribly confused by now.

Good God, 22 points?!  "I'm sure there's a cheaper way to buy that."<--THIS IS THE REFRAIN OF EVERY HERO SYSTEM PLAYER SINCE DAY 1

Quote from: thedungeondelver;471050Good God, 22 points?!  "I'm sure there's a cheaper way to buy that."<--THIS IS THE REFRAIN OF EVERY HERO SYSTEM PLAYER SINCE DAY 1

Ha! Your logic-fu is weak! It is but 10 points to buy it!

Quote from: Narf the Mouse;471059Ha! Your logic-fu is weak! It is but 10 points to buy it!

Good God!  Ten points?  I'm sure there's a cheaper way to buy that!

Quote from: Narf the Mouse;471059Ha! Your logic-fu is weak! It is but 10 points to buy it!

22 Active points, which has to be compared against the GM's Power Active point Limit, and the DC checked to ensure it's not above the DC limit for the campaign, and zzzzzzz.

QuoteGood God! Ten points? I'm sure there's a cheaper way to buy that!

Make it a single Recoverable continuing charge of one minute (the badger eventually gets bored, and you have to go and get the badger if you want to use it again) (-1/2) to eliminate the END cost and add Reduced Penetration (-1/4) because badgers can't chew through chain mail.