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As a Conan fan I am curious about this one.  I did not kickstart the project (had money tied up in two others, and given how slow reaper was in delivering I was not so confident in a company I am less familiar with) but I have tried to figure out when the book hits the market.  

   I will surely buy a copy when it comes out, but I was curious as to how the system plays out on the table.  I have never played a 2d20 game, have MC and try to follow the system in the book, but assume there will be some S&S tweaks to the system for Conan.  I think it is a system I would need to play in for a few hours to feel confident with.

  Anyhow, anyone playing/testing/using the system in game and could you give me an overview of how it plays out on the table?

Yeah, I have opinions. The game sucks. I still bought it for the setting material, adventures, and art because I am a fan of the IP. "How it plays out" has been discussed exhaustively in multiple threads on the RPGsite with several of the designers and people at Modiphius contributing. I would post them here - if I knew how. Someone will chime in and help you out I'm sure. I don't care for the game one bit, but clearly many people do.  Whether you would like it or not depends on what you want out of a Conan RPG.

It's got all the flash - art, layout, writing etc, but I'm not particularly in with the system. For me, they'd have done better sticking with a D20/Pathfinder/5E system, personally.

Playtest thread here. (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?34079-Playtest-Conan-2d20-To-Race-the-Thunder&highlight=race+thunder)

Quote from: CRKrueger;977639Playtest thread here. (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?34079-Playtest-Conan-2d20-To-Race-the-Thunder&highlight=race+thunder)

  Thanks!

Quote from: TrippyHippy;977632It's got all the flash - art, layout, writing etc, but I'm not particularly in with the system. For me, they'd have done better sticking with a D20/Pathfinder/5E system, personally.

Why would they have done that? it was already done exactly that way several years back, complete with a 2nd edition.

Quote from: rgrove0172;977809Why would they have done that? it was already done exactly that way several years back, complete with a 2nd edition.

The 2nd edition of the Mongoose Conan RPG was cheaply done. There was a noticeable visual quality dip between editions. I know this because I own pretty much everything in that game line.

The reason to do a new D20 version? Pretty simple. They would have gotten all of the old fans who got burned by Mongoose. They would have gotten considerable good will for picking up and running with that ball.

OGL Conan is easily my favorite interation of a D20 fantasy game. It took away all of the nitpicks I had with that system. And did a bang up job of representing the fictional material that they were basing the game on.

If I was going to run Conan with anything it would be Mythras but I'd use the new system as a second choice based on CRkruegers thread.

Not for the love of Set would I use a D20 system.

Quote from: HorusArisen;977837If I was going to run Conan with anything it would be Mythras but I'd use the new system as a second choice based on CRkruegers thread.

Not for the love of Set would I use a D20 system.

A large part of why Conan Properties Inc. pulled the license from Mongoose was: Because Mongoose had decided to relaunch the property under Runequest. Effectively abandoning all of the customers who had sunk so much into OGL Conan.

All Mongoose responded with were: Pie in the sky promises that meant less than nothing to the customer base they already had established.

In this case: Conan Properties Inc. were firmly on the side of the consumers.

Personally. I wouldn't touch Mythras or any Runequest derived game at all. Because I have already been burned by Mongoose because of that subject to begin with.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;977842A large part of why Conan Properties Inc. pulled the license from Mongoose was: Because Mongoose had decided to relaunch the property under Runequest. Effectively abandoning all of the customers who had sunk so much into OGL Conan.

All Mongoose responded with were: Pie in the sky promises that meant less than nothing to the customer base they already had established.

In this case: Conan Properties Inc. were firmly on the side of the consumers.

Personally. I wouldn't touch Mythras or any Runequest derived game at all. Because I have already been burned by Mongoose because of that subject to begin with.

So you won't touch the game because a specific licensee burned you? That's like never playing D&D again because Green Ronin stopped making True20.

So reasons I wouldn't use d20.

Class system too restrictive
Hot point accumulation
Magic system
Limited skill use/systems.

I'm fine with all additions of D&D for D&D I just don't find most adaptations worth the time.

Quote from: Madprofessor;977630Yeah, I have opinions. The game sucks. I still bought it for the setting material, adventures, and art because I am a fan of the IP. "How it plays out" has been discussed exhaustively in multiple threads on the RPGsite with several of the designers and people at Modiphius contributing. I would post them here - if I knew how. Someone will chime in and help you out I'm sure. I don't care for the game one bit, but clearly many people do.  Whether you would like it or not depends on what you want out of a Conan RPG.

The description of the system doesn't appeal to me. How well does the material work for use with another system?
I didn't care for the d20 version either, but did buy a few of the better rated books because the source material was good and useful beyond the d20 system.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;977823The 2nd edition of the Mongoose Conan RPG was cheaply done. There was a noticeable visual quality dip between editions. I know this because I own pretty much everything in that game line.

The reason to do a new D20 version? Pretty simple. They would have gotten all of the old fans who got burned by Mongoose. They would have gotten considerable good will for picking up and running with that ball.

OGL Conan is easily my favorite interation of a D20 fantasy game. It took away all of the nitpicks I had with that system. And did a bang up job of representing the fictional material that they were basing the game on.

I DO own everything available in that line and enjoyed the game, both versions. I do recall however a great deal of talk at the time that D20OGL simply could not do Conan/REH justice. It was a bad fit rules to genre. I could understand those that held this opinion but we made it work fine for several years. I would have been happy to continue that way but will admit I got a little excited when Modiphius went in a different direction. Ive played the Quickstart and read through the PDF Rules a bit and so far, I like what I see.

Quote from: HorusArisen;977844So you won't touch the game because a specific licensee burned you? That's like never playing D&D again because Green Ronin stopped making True20.

More than that actually.

I find the Runequest fan community to be obnoxious and elitist.

My first encounter with a Runequest fan was when I had only barely had purchased the Basic, Expert, and Companion sets of D&D. And I had been looking for a group that shared my interests to play that game.

What did I get instead? Nearly two hours of a Runequest snob preaching about how superior Runequest was. And how crappy the game I had just got was. It wasn't a fun experience.

Over the years since then. I have delt with other BRP games. The only one that even semi-clicked with me was Stormbringer. But I only barely tolerated the system as it was.

But anytime I even mildly think of looking at Runequest. It's fan base proves to me I should just walk the other way.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;977898More than that actually.

I find the Runequest fan community to be obnoxious and elitist.

My first encounter with a Runequest fan was when I had only barely had purchased the Basic, Expert, and Companion sets of D&D. And I had been looking for a group that shared my interests to play that game.

What did I get instead? Nearly two hours of a Runequest snob preaching about how superior Runequest was. And how crappy the game I had just got was. It wasn't a fun experience.

Over the years since then. I have delt with other BRP games. The only one that even semi-clicked with me was Stormbringer. But I only barely tolerated the system as it was.

But anytime I even mildly think of looking at Runequest. It's fan base proves to me I should just walk the other way.

Well I can't knock your opinion  being coloured by a bad experience.

If you ever change your mind check out the Mythras forums, it's a quiet but friendly crowd.

Quote from: rgrove0172;977809Why would they have done that? it was already done exactly that way several years back, complete with a 2nd edition.

Bigger market. 5E, in particular as a newish version of D20, could have adapted it well. The brand and setting for Conan would always be a bigger pull factor than any system-based aspect - and to be honest, the 2D20 system isn't all that special anyway.

Cubicle 7 cottoned to this with their development of Adventures in Middle Earth. Yes, The One Ring is fine, but most RPG fans play D&D, so may as well go with the flow. Ditto Conan.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;977932Bigger market. 5E, in particular as a newish version of D20, could have adapted it well. The brand and setting for Conan would always be a bigger pull factor than any system-based aspect - and to be honest, the 2D20 system isn't all that special anyway.

Cubicle 7 cottoned to this with their development of Adventures in Middle Earth. Yes, The One Ring is fine, but most RPG fans play D&D, so may as well go with the flow. Ditto Conan.

Good points

Quote from: HorusArisen;977837If I was going to run Conan with anything it would be Mythras but I'd use the new system as a second choice based on CRkruegers thread.

Not for the love of Set would I use a D20 system.

Mythras? Hit locations, piercing and fatigue all seem very ill-suited to Conan. Seems to me a broader more heroic system would be the better fit.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;977932Bigger market. 5E, in particular as a newish version of D20, could have adapted it well.

Except 5e isnt anything a new d20 at all.

Try again please.

Q: Any opinions on the New Conan RPG?

A: Only that the "Doom" and "Momentum" stuff throws me right out the game world and back to the table where I'm chucking dice. Sucks me right out of any immersion when I have to track meta points my character wouldn't know about.

Quote from: Omega;977957Except 5e isnt anything a new d20 at all.

Try again please.

Well, if you could try to construct your sentence again properly...

5E was written comfortably after Mongoose's D20 Conan had ceased to be and is, therefore, a relatively new system by comparison. Primeval Thule is about the closest thing we have to a 5E setting for Conan style adventures, but there hasn't been any official Conan setting release for 5E D&D as far as I know. 5E is not the same as previous editions either.

Your criticism makes no sense.

EDIT: Waait a minute......this isn't somehow related to a "my hat of D02 know no limit" thing is it?

Quote from: Voros;977955Mythras? Hit locations, piercing and fatigue all seem very ill-suited to Conan. Seems to me a broader more heroic system would be the better fit.

I disagree* but in that vein you could use one of the variant BRP games. Some lack those qualities.

*not that your opinion is wrong, this is a ymmv kinda conversation

Quote from: Voros;977955Mythras? Hit locations, piercing and fatigue all seem very ill-suited to Conan. Seems to me a broader more heroic system would be the better fit.

Hit Locations? 'And the Cimmerian came, with a desperate leap and a humming slash of his sword. The beautiful head rolled from the top of the screen in a jet of dark blood and fell at his feet, and he gave back, fearing to touch it.'

Piercing? 'Fighting as he had never fought before, straining every last ounce of effort to parry the blade that flickered like lightning about his head, Zaporavo in desperation caught a full stroke near his hilt, and felt his whole arm go numb beneath the terrific impact. That stroke was instantly followed by a thrust with such terrible drive behind it that the sharp point ripped through chain-mail and ribs like paper, to
transfix the heart beneath.'

Fatigue? 'A wind out of the west blew against his face, laden with a salty dampness he recognized. Dully he was amazed. If he was that close to the sea the long chase had been even longer than he had realized. But it was nearly over. Even his wolfish vitality was ebbing under the terrible strain. He gasped for breath and there was a sharp pain in his side. His legs trembled with weariness and the lame one ached like the cut of a knife in the tendons each time he set the foot to earth.'

Oh I think the Conan saga is very well suited indeed... By Mythras and Crom!

Quote from: Pete Nash;978062Hit Locations? 'And the Cimmerian came, with a desperate leap and a humming slash of his sword. The beautiful head rolled from the top of the screen in a jet of dark blood and fell at his feet, and he gave back, fearing to touch it.'

Piercing? 'Fighting as he had never fought before, straining every last ounce of effort to parry the blade that flickered like lightning about his head, Zaporavo in desperation caught a full stroke near his hilt, and felt his whole arm go numb beneath the terrific impact. That stroke was instantly followed by a thrust with such terrible drive behind it that the sharp point ripped through chain-mail and ribs like paper, to
transfix the heart beneath.'

Fatigue? 'A wind out of the west blew against his face, laden with a salty dampness he recognized. Dully he was amazed. If he was that close to the sea the long chase had been even longer than he had realized. But it was nearly over. Even his wolfish vitality was ebbing under the terrible strain. He gasped for breath and there was a sharp pain in his side. His legs trembled with weariness and the lame one ached like the cut of a knife in the tendons each time he set the foot to earth.'

Oh I think the Conan saga is very well suited indeed... By Mythras and Crom!

Yeah, I don't know what Conan stories people are reading sometimes.  Thundarr might be a great cartoon, but Conan ain't Thundarr.

Hell, even the 2d20 system, which is more focused on narrative stuff still includes hit locations, armor piercing and fatigue (as well as reach).  Brutal, descriptive combat with lots of options is part and parcel of Howard.

Too often people get the actual specifics of Howard's Conan mixed up with "general literary protagonism", forgetting how many times Conan loses, runs, or almost dies.

Quote from: Dumarest;977967Q: Any opinions on the New Conan RPG?

A: Only that the "Doom" and "Momentum" stuff throws me right out the game world and back to the table where I'm chucking dice. Sucks me right out of any immersion when I have to track meta points my character wouldn't know about.

Like hit points, right?

Momentum is a thing people can sense. Sporting events turn on it. Actual battles turn on it. Humans are pattern-finding creatures, and are especially sensitive in life-and-death situations.

I know very little about the 2d20 system. I checked out the freebie, and it struck me that the construction of the mechanics smelled a lot like FFG's Star Wars mechanics but using a different method of dice resolution. Then I did a little more digging and realized Jay Little helped out with this system, and there it was.

I'm having some "issues" with the FFG system, the more I play it. The narrative resource-point  plate-spinning is becoming a distraction for me. This system seems lighter... But HMMMM...

I would rather had seen a much more lighter and faster system. 5e or Savage Worlds could have been a much better fit for me. 2d20 have part the same problem as Conan D20: Too many freaking rules and too slow combat (no I never liked 3.5 as a whole. I am more in the OSR/neoclone camp). I went deep into the Conan 2d20 Kickstarter. But it will probably be one of those games more for the  collectors (*guilty*) , but I dont think many people will actually play it. Useing the Mutant Chronicles system feels like just a pure corporate decision ( no pun intended) with complete disregard for the setting and kind of makes all the purism-hype even more stupid.

Quote from: darthfozzywig;978079Like hit points, right?

Momentum is a thing people can sense. Sporting events turn on it. Actual battles turn on it. Humans are pattern-finding creatures, and are especially sensitive in life-and-death situations.

If momentum was the only thing this game made me keep track of, you might have had an actual argument here.

Quote from: baragei;978089If momentum was the only thing this game made me keep track of, you might have had an actual argument here.

Hahah true enough. Not commenting on whether or not the game should be tracking Momentum as a thing on top of the other things the game requires you to manage, I'm just calling BS on the notion that momentum is any more or less metagame or valid a thing to track and manage.

Quote from: Teodrik;9780832d20 have part the same problem as Conan D20: Too many freaking rules and too slow combat (no I never liked 3.5 as a whole. I am more in the OSR/neoclone camp).

I about threw the Mongoose book across the room when I saw that they had a specific Feat for holding a blade between your teeth when you climb.

Jeebus, guys, sometimes more isn't more.

Quote from: darthfozzywig;978094I about threw the Mongoose book across the room when I saw that they had a specific Feat for holding a blade between your teeth when you climb.

Jeebus, guys, sometimes more isn't more.

  Yeah I thought that was odd when it was along side the same rules that certain races could enter and leave fighting madness at will (which I thought was a nice touch) regardless of class.  The one I really didnt get was the being flat footed when you lose initiative.  This made certain classes beastly in combat, and did not represent what initiative is, instead treating every single initiative loss as surprise.  Yes, Conan catches LOTS of people off guard at the start of fights with his raw speed and ferocity, but these in the literature are clearly surprise situations, not a case of winning initiative.

Quote from: darthfozzywig;978079Momentum is a thing people can sense. Sporting events turn on it. Actual battles turn on it. Humans are pattern-finding creatures, and are especially sensitive in life-and-death situations.

Utter nonsense. :rolleyes:

If I had the time I'd definitely run this for my group. Two of the lads love Conan and I think they'd get a blast from it. I agree with Tenbones in that I get a string vibe very similar to FFG SW and that is an enjoyable game.

Quote from: Dumarest;978104Utter nonsense. :rolleyes:

Nah, it's real. Wrestled for years. When you sense your opponent is slipping or fading in will, or you've figured out their 'tells' you almost automatically up your tempo to take advantage. Really good opponents use this to catch you in grappling and wrestling. I got my ass handed to me by several good opponents that took advantage of my aggression and lack of keeping a cool head (but that's a different "thing" - maybe there's a talent/feat in Conan that let's you turn the Momentum around?)

Do I need it in my RPGs? Doubtful. But I'm open-minded.

Quote from: Dumarest;978104Utter nonsense. :rolleyes:

I suspect you've never watched an England batting collapse in a test match. Would you be happier if it were called morale rather than momentum?

Quote from: CRKrueger;978067Yeah, I don't know what Conan stories people are reading sometimes.  Thundarr might be a great cartoon, but Conan ain't Thundarr.

Hell, even the 2d20 system, which is more focused on narrative stuff still includes hit locations, armor piercing and fatigue (as well as reach).  Brutal, descriptive combat with lots of options is part and parcel of Howard.

Too often people get the actual specifics of Howard's Conan mixed up with "general literary protagonism", forgetting how many times Conan loses, runs, or almost dies.

Yeah, when someone asks about a playing in a "Conan RPG,"  I think people have two vastly different reactions about what that is.  Conan the super hero of comics, art, movies, etc. contrasts pretty sharply with what Howard actually wrote.   After bringing up "let's play Conan," the next question should be "is this the cinematic over-the-top comic book Conan? or is this the Nietzchean existential adventures in the Hyborian Age where your wits and skill are all that separate you from a brutal and unglorified death Conan?"

Quote from: Madprofessor;978193Yeah, when someone asks about a playing in a "Conan RPG,"  I think people have two vastly different reactions about what that is.  Conan the super hero of comics, art, movies, etc. contrasts pretty sharply with what Howard actually wrote.   After bringing up "let's play Conan," the next question should be "is this the cinematic over-the-top comic book Conan? or is this the Nietzchean existential adventures in the Hyborian Age where your wits and skill are all that separate you from a brutal and unglorified death Conan?"

Yup. I once put it as "Superman the Barbarian" vs "Hyborian Cthulhu".

Mongoose Conan is the best version of d20 that I know of - whatever that's worth.  Mongoose made a heroic effort to put a square peg in a round hole and should be applauded.  It's still d20 with levels and classes and feats which is not ideal for the Hyborian age.

Quote from: CRKrueger;978067Yeah, I don't know what Conan stories people are reading sometimes.  Thundarr might be a great cartoon, but Conan ain't Thundarr.

Hell, even the 2d20 system, which is more focused on narrative stuff still includes hit locations, armor piercing and fatigue (as well as reach).  Brutal, descriptive combat with lots of options is part and parcel of Howard.

Too often people get the actual specifics of Howard's Conan mixed up with "general literary protagonism", forgetting how many times Conan loses, runs, or almost dies.

I've read all the original Conan stories and while there's some grit in the descriptions there's also a strong, romantic flavour that I don't think Mythras captures.

Quote from: HorusArisen;978010I disagree* but in that vein you could use one of the variant BRP games. Some lack those qualities.

*not that your opinion is wrong, this is a ymmv kinda conversation

Fair enough.

Quote from: Voros;978296I've read all the original Conan stories and while there's some grit in the descriptions there's also a strong, romantic flavour that I don't think Mythras captures.

Yeah, he has problems facing more than 4 men (Phoenix on The Sword), but can handle 3 well enough in the short stories.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;978312Yeah, he has problems facing more than 4 men (Phoenix on The Sword), but can handle 3 well enough in the short stories.

It's been awhile, but isn't he fighting off armoured men while wearing no armour himself, all in the enclosed quarters of his bedroom? I'm sure he could handle a lot more with armour parity.

Quote from: Premier;978313It's been awhile, but isn't he fighting off armoured men while wearing no armour himself, all in the enclosed quarters of his bedroom? I'm sure he could handle a lot more with armour parity.

Actually he starts the battle in plate armour, sans helmet and shield.

'True; there had been lack of time to don the heavy plumed casque, or to lace in place the side-plates
of the cuirass, nor was there now time to snatch the great shield from the wall. Still, Conan was better
protected than any of his foes except Volmana and Gromel, who were in full armor.'

Conan uses his superior strength and skill through the fight to drop nine enemies, each with a single blow. He keeps himself alive using footwork to limit the number of foes who can strike at him at any moment (Outmaneuver in Mythras), but still ends up with a number of superficial cuts, surviving thanks mainly to his Aquilonian armour.

Unfortunately he then takes a serious wound (sword chop) to the left shoulder, followed by a serious wound to his chest (dagger thrust through the open armour). At this point all is lost for Conan whereupon Thoth-Amon's demon arrives, routing the remaining assassins and killing Ascalante, the last of the conspirators and the best fighter.

This is Conan's most epic solo fight in the entire series of tales, taking on 15 to 1 odds. It was also the very first of the published Conan stories. In the later tales he uses surprise, darkness and outmaneuvering to great effect, and generally flees when the odds are against him. He also wears the best armour available, whenever he can. Paramount to his survival however is the fact that he uses his wits and personality to take control of situations before he can be mobbed. There are frequent cases of him talking his way out of a fight or limiting it to a single combat for leadership.

Quote from: Voros;978296I've read all the original Conan stories and while there's some grit in the descriptions there's also a strong, romantic flavour that I don't think Mythras captures.

Can you elaborate? I don't see the disconnect that you are seeing.

I'm seeing the same obnoxious behavior from Mythras fan community as I do from Runequest fan community. The treating of Runequest/Mythras as the "one true way". And preaching that from a pulpit.

That behavior only serves to repulse me further from said game system and its community.

OGL Conan worked. Because it was based on the most popular game system in the world. That's why it sold at the level it did. Because the public largely knew what they were getting into.

Could it have been better? Yes. Because no game is perfect.

Would a version based on 5th Edition D&D sell? Yes. Because the market is absolutely starved for 5th Edition supporting material.

I'm not saying D&D 5th Edition is better than Runequest/Mythras. Simply that it is more visible and profitable.

I thought it was axiomatic that all fan communities are obnoxious. :D

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;978457I'm seeing the same obnoxious behavior from Mythras fan community as I do from Runequest fan community. The treating of Runequest/Mythras as the "one true way". And preaching that from a pulpit.

That behavior only serves to repulse me further from said game system and its community.

As someone who came to the system late this is so not my experience. Very friendly and helpful and overall the least contentious group to have a gaming discussion with. I'm sorry that some bad experience with some other gamers has put you off what I'm hoping will be my core gaming choice but everyone having the same tastes would suck.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;978457OGL Conan worked. Because it was based on the most popular game system in the world. That's why it sold at the level it did. Because the public largely knew what they were getting into.

Could it have been better? Yes. Because no game is perfect.

You could argue any game can work but d20 for Conan was never a great idea. My favourite doesn't need repeating but you have BoL, the mophidius game even HeroQuest.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;978457Would a version based on 5th Edition D&D sell? Yes. Because the market is absolutely starved for 5th Edition supporting material.

I'm not saying D&D 5th Edition is better than Runequest/Mythras. Simply that it is more visible and profitable.

Would sell easily, WotC's barren plains have people parched for settings and campaigns but like AiME even if it's good doesn't mean it'll be the best choice.

That's my opinion anyway.

Quote from: HorusArisen;978480Would sell easily, WotC's barren plains have people parched for settings and campaigns but like AiME even if it's good doesn't mean it'll be the best choice.

Selling is what determines the best choice. Not the arbitrary opinion of a fringe part of the gaming community.

Runequest/Mythras will always appeal only to a thin fringe part of the RPG audience. The 600 pound gorilla in the room is D&D. That's why Mongoose had their sales tank when they converted every one of their licensed games over to Runequest and Traveller. And it is something they have never recovered from.

The Tolkien fans are not going to like me for saying this. But Conan has far and away, always been the more popular fantasy property. It's sales speak for itself. And the RPG products based on it have always outsold those based on Tolkien's work by a large margin. That's the reality.

The true father of modern fantasy has been and always will be Howard.

Quote from: Premier;978313It's been awhile, but isn't he fighting off armoured men while wearing no armour himself, all in the enclosed quarters of his bedroom? I'm sure he could handle a lot more with armour parity.

Not to mention that he was awoken a few moments earlier by these same assassins?  Yeah.

The old Savage Sword magazines weren't actually far off as to how Howard used to portray the skill and cunning of Conan.  They usually had him facing off on barely clad men like himself.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;978522The Tolkien fans are not going to like me for saying this. But Conan has far and away, always been the more popular fantasy property. It's sales speak for itself. And the RPG products based on it have always outsold those based on Tolkien's work by a large margin. That's the reality.

The true father of modern fantasy has been and always will be Howard.

I prefer Howard/Conan over Tolkien/hobbits, but that's just utter nonsense:

Domestic box office gross (not counting video/DVD/whatever):
Return of the King
$377,027,325

Two Towers
$339,789,881

Fellowship of the Ring
$313,364,114

The Hobbit
$303,003,568

The Hobbit 2
$258,366,855

The Hobbit 3
$255,119,788

Foreign box office gross (not counting video/DVD/whatever):
Return of the King
$742,083,616

Two Towers
$583,495,746

Fellowship of the Ring
$555,985,574

The Hobbit
$718,100,000

The Hobbit 2
$700,000,000

The Hobbit 3
$700,900,000

Domestic box office gross (not counting video/DVD/whatever):
Conan the Barbarian (2011)
$21,295,021

Conan the Destroyer
$31,042,035

Conan the Barbarian (1982)
$39,565,475

Foreign grosses not readily available for all the Conan movies.

http://www.boxofficemojo.com/showdowns/chart/?id=vs-lotr.htm
http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=conan3d.htm
http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=conanthedestroyer.htm
http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=conanthebarbarian.htm

And you can compare book sales as well if you want further refutation of your assertion. Again, I like Conan better but the world does not. Tolkien's influence on modern fantasy is unfortunately far greater than Howard's. One needs only look at all the knockoffs of Tolkien clogging the bookshelves.

You haven't adjusted for inflation in those movie figures on those Arnold Conan movies.

What would their take be in this day and age?

You didn't even mention the take from the Jason Mamoa Conan movie.

You are refuting nothing by producing incomplete figures.

You would have to be blind not to see the huge amount of novels, pulps, and comics put out since Conan was created. Which is far in excess of whatever other books directly based on Tolkien's properties that have been produced.

Tolkien has never been pastiche'd. It's not an ongoing property. It is what it is. Finite.

Pretenders and copycats don't count. They have produced nothing specifically for that property.

Conan. However. Is an ongoing property. With new material being produced for it every single month. Nonstop.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;978522Selling is what determines the best choice. Not the arbitrary opinion of a fringe part of the gaming community.

Runequest/Mythras will always appeal only to a thin fringe part of the RPG audience. The 600 pound gorilla in the room is D&D. That's why Mongoose had their sales tank when they converted every one of their licensed games over to Runequest and Traveller. And it is something they have never recovered from.

The Tolkien fans are not going to like me for saying this. But Conan has far and away, always been the more popular fantasy property. It's sales speak for itself. And the RPG products based on it have always outsold those based on Tolkien's work by a large margin. That's the reality.

The true father of modern fantasy has been and always will be Howard.

Ah you mean best from marketing viewpoint whereas I'm thinking gaming. Fair enough I can't say your wrong on that.

I'm more a Howard than Tolkien fan but it's a slimmer margin. Only problem with your film argument and inflation though is that a true like for like comparison would require they be released at the same time, I suspect that the, by today's standards, poor quality would put off the MTV crowd.

Overall I'd suspect with the books and comics closer than people realise.

*shh we don't talk about the Momoa film

Quote from: oggsmash;977526Any opinions on the New Conan RPG?

If it's the 2D20 system Conan, buy a Frazetta coffee table book instead. Better art, better written.

To those whining about the system. Have you played it? What happened to justify your opinion.

Quote from: Biscuitician;978670To those whining about the system. Have you played it? What happened to justify your opinion.

I have played with the 2d20 system a bit - with the Star Trek playtest and the Conan quickstart. It's meh. Justified?

Quote from: Biscuitician;978670To those whining about the system. Have you played it? What happened to justify your opinion.

I ran the Conan Quickstart, it did not capture the 'feel' we were looking for and felt very 'fiddly', with the bargaining for momentum.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;978522The Tolkien fans are not going to like me for saying this. But Conan has far and away, always been the more popular fantasy property. It's sales speak for itself. And the RPG products based on it have always outsold those based on Tolkien's work by a large margin. That's the reality.

??
I'm a fan of both, and I still don't get what you mean. As far as fantasy property goes, it is of course plain wrong, since Tolkien stuff (books, movies) tends to outsell Howard stuff by a huge margin, with the exception of comics, but I suppose you mean gaming specifically? But I also highly doubt that the TSR Conan RPG outsold MERP in the 80s, judging from the lack of supplements etc. If you mean D&D, then well, that's not exactly a Conan game is it? It has inspiration from both.

Quote from: Trond;978723??
I'm a fan of both, and I still don't get what you mean. As far as fantasy property goes, it is of course plain wrong, since Tolkien stuff (books, movies) tends to outsell Howard stuff by a huge margin, with the exception of comics, so I suppose you mean gaming specifically? But I also highly doubt that the TSR Conan RPG outsold MERP in the 80s, judging from the lack of supplements etc. If you mean D&D, then well, that's not exactly a Conan game is it? It has inspiration from both.

Here's the thing, Conan hasn't been left to stagnate as a property, there have been comics and magazines from various companies for the past 80+ years, with movies sprinkled in there as well various forms of pastiche works.

However, Tolkien's works, despite not being able to be modified, has never been forgotten.

Quote from: Dumarest;978478I thought it was axiomatic that all fan communities are obnoxious. :D

Oh man, when speaking about hardcore fans you're right (joking or not). I've had D&D fans who simply would not touch any other game, or ruin other games because they could not stop talking in terms of D&D-isms. I also remember groups a good while back who thought that the only cool RPG ever was VtM.

Quote from: Biscuitician;978670To those whining about the system. Have you played it? What happened to justify your opinion.

Yes, I have given it an honest try with my group. My biggest complaint is with the momentum/doom economy which forces players to play out of character and manipulate the widgets of the game rather than playing their characters.  Unlike FATE, it is a narrative game that cannot be played IC as a traditional game.  There are other problems.  The Doom mechanic, in one stroke, pits the GM in an adversarial role against the players while giving the the players the power to decide how much power the GM has. The whole game has a Karmic cosmic balance kind of feel in that the characters can accomplish almost anything they want by manipulating the cosmic economy, but the consequence is that they unleash the GM to screw with them in doing so.  So you have this feel of "my success will bring trouble or suffering later" - and that just has nothing to do with Howard.  Other minor problems are ubiquitous range band abstractions and mook rules that needlessly complicate the game and make it feel distinctly like a game.  In the whole bauble economy, you can also borrow other people's success, so if your thief sneaks well in one scene, I can barrow the point off of that success and increase my chance to hit with a sword.  I've been game mastering since the late '70s and I have run almost everything out there, and run into all kinds of players and play styles. I've run numerous successful Hyborian Age campaigns using GURPS, Mongoose d20, BoL, and BRP.  I desperately wanted to like this, but this 2d20 system is a bad fit for Conan, and it is a bad excuse for an RPG overall.  I don't expect everybody to agree with me, but I think my opinion is well justified.

I think 2d20 Conan is an example of a company with money buying a famous IP and trying to shove their crappy proprietary Jay Little system down buyers throats with shiny covers, and big industry names. It's just like what Fantasy Flight did to WFRP.  Now, Modiphius learned a few things from WFRP 3.  They got great artists, REH scholars like Jeff Shanks, and Jason Durall to run the show. They made "the one and only official REH's Conan game." I respect a these guys that Modiphius hired. But Shanks isn't a gamer.  He doesn't know how mechanics interact with setting or can define a game's semblance to the literature.  He's an REH scholar, he oversees the purity of the fluff to make sure there is no influence from pastiche (which was a common complaint about Mongoose Conan).  He has no influence over the mechanics. Neither does Jason.  He's the line developer, not the game designer. He is a fantastic writer who "gets it," and who gets Conan, and he's a hell of good guy to boot. He came here to the RPGsite and debated 2d20 Conan mechanics with us for days.  But the game was already designed by Jay Little for Mutant Chronicles and his hands are tied.  I have no doubt that Jason, Jeff, and a whole stable of artists and writers will deliver some great material - but the game still sucks.

End of rant

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;978573You haven't adjusted for inflation in those movie figures on those Arnold Conan movies.

What would their take be in this day and age?

You didn't even mention the take from the Jason Mamoa Conan movie.

You are refuting nothing by producing incomplete figures.

You would have to be blind not to see the huge amount of novels, pulps, and comics put out since Conan was created. Which is far in excess of whatever other books directly based on Tolkien's properties that have been produced.

Tolkien has never been pastiche'd. It's not an ongoing property. It is what it is. Finite.

Pretenders and copycats don't count. They have produced nothing specifically for that property.

Conan. However. Is an ongoing property. With new material being produced for it every single month. Nonstop.

Dude, are you serious?  If so, you might want to check your meds. I mean who uses pastiche'd as a verb?

He did quote the Conan 2011 film and it wasn't a drop in Galadriels mirror.  "Did you adjust for inflation?" C'mon.  Oh yeah, TOR Conan Novels by great authors like Maddox-Roberts or Bjorn Nyberg outsell Tolkien, sure.
And lets not forget Carter and de Camp.  Or what about Poul Anderson, Karl E. Wagner, and the great Robert Jordan. Roy Thomas! Some of it is great stuff, but it is not even in the same financial ballpark as Tolkien.

Right, Conan is a brand that makes money, and Howard really was the father of fantasy in my mind.  I prefer his brand of fantasy. Conan may even be as popular as Middle Earth in some gaming circles.  There is a definite niche. But - Tolkien is a modern pillar of western civilization.  The Lord of the Rings is in the running for the most popular and influential book of the 20th century. With Pete Jackson's movies winning at the academy and breaking box office records, forget about it. Your nuts if you think Conan as a property comes anywhere close.

I forgot to mention this:

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;978573......You would have to be blind not to see the huge amount of novels, pulps, and comics put out since Conan was created. Which is far in excess of whatever other books directly based on Tolkien's properties that have been produced.

Tolkien has never been pastiche'd. It's not an ongoing property. It is what it is. Finite.

Pretenders and copycats don't count. They have produced nothing specifically for that property.

Conan. However. Is an ongoing property. With new material being produced for it every single month. Nonstop.

The reason for this is well-known and not controversial (or shouldn't be, if people looked into it)
The Tolkien family (Christopher Tolkien mainly) has a very tight legal grip on anything Tolkien-based. They don't allow spin-offs. Even the movies are restricted, despite J.R.R.T himself selling the movie rights way back; they are only allowed to use materials from the Hobbit and LOTR, not Silmarillion or any of the other material. Still, Tolkien-films sell so well that people are now considering making movies based on the appendices of LOTR.

Most of the Howard materials don't have comparable legal restrictions, and you can read many of his stories for free online, legally.

Quote from: Madprofessor;978758Right, Conan is a brand that makes money, and Howard really was the father of fantasy in my mind.  I prefer his brand of fantasy. Conan may even be as popular as Middle Earth in some gaming circles.  There is a definite niche. But - Tolkien is a modern pillar of western civilization.  The Lord of the Rings is in the running for the most popular and influential book of the 20th century. With Pete Jackson's movies winning at the academy and breaking box office records, forget about it. Your nuts if you think Conan as a property comes anywhere close.

That's all I'm saying. I prefer Conan over Gandalf and Co., but facts are facts. I also like Archie comics better than DC or Marvel.

I don't see the reason for the contest really. Tolkien is awesome and Howard kicks axe. They are also so different that they can both sit happily side by side on my bookshelf.

I was in discussions with Conan Properties about 20 years ago for the boardgame rights. They were realistic about the value and popularity of the license: "consistent" being the best word. It's not hugely popular, but the base is always there. But Howard/Conan didn't have name recognition of JRRT, even before the Jackson films.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;978457I'm seeing the same obnoxious behavior from Mythras fan community as I do from Runequest fan community.

For one thing Pete Nash isn't a fan of Mythras, he's an author of Mythras.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;978457The treating of Runequest/Mythras as the "one true way". And preaching that from a pulpit.

Again, from who?  Unlike Savage Worlds, Fate, etc, I never see people saying "Mythras for everything."  Bronze Age stuff and Sword and Sorcery though, that's what it was made for, so yeah, people are gonna nominate it.

Will it ever sell as much as a version of D&D?  No, no RPG probably ever will.  Who cares?

Wow. Looking over this thread there's a lot of negativity in here.
Saw a video on it on youtube, and it looks pretty good to me. Looks like the authors took efforts to actually make it a Conan game. I will def check it out.

Quote from: Trond;979143Wow. Looking over this thread there's a lot of negativity in here.
Saw a video on it on youtube, and it looks pretty good to me. Looks like the authors took efforts to actually make it a Conan game. I will def check it out.

I thought it looked good so I bought it, just haven't had a chance to run it. From reading I don't see the problems people are mentioning any more than widgets in other games. BUT reading and play can vary.

Quote from: Trond;979143Wow. Looking over this thread there's a lot of negativity in here.
Saw a video on it on youtube, and it looks pretty good to me. Looks like the authors took efforts to actually make it a Conan game. I will def check it out.

Quote from: HorusArisen;979239I thought it looked good so I bought it, just haven't had a chance to run it. From reading I don't see the problems people are mentioning any more than widgets in other games. BUT reading and play can vary.

The system is 2d20, so you roll...2d20.  Every action, skill, attack, etc where you roll that 2d20, you can choose to add up to 3 dice to potentially roll 5d20.

The kicker is, it's unlimited.  No matter how injured the character is, no matter how many dice they have already purchased, they can keep rolling 5d20, all roll, every roll.

So why wouldn't you do that?  Notice I said purchased.  Whenever you gain a d20, you give the GM a Doom Point.  Now this could work as a setting conceit perhaps in Mutant Chronicles with the Dark Symmetry, or Star Wars with the Dark Side, or Warhammer with Chaos, but it basically assumes something the character is consciously or unconsciously bargaining with.

In Conan, it's kind of hard to argue the in-setting use of such a thing.  "Effort" or "Stamina" obviously don't work due to the unlimited, repeatable nature of the purchase.

So it's not a choice that a Conan character can actually make.  The player must make it, meaning that even if the player is deciding to make that choice because this action is something the character really cares about,  then they are exercising a form of authorial narrative control, changing the rules of the setting from an OOC perspective to simulate the great feats of characters like Conan.  It also serves as a way to "pulp up" the action.  As the characters become more and more deadly, the GM has more Doom Points to summon reinforcements, invoke special powers, and do a whole lot of things that the rules, by RAW, do not let the GM do without Doom expenditure.

Doom, therefore is by definition, narrativium (and called such by one of the Conan developers), it exists for the players and GM to tweak the current game as they like to make it more like a Howard Story.

If you don't want to play in a Howard Story, rather in the Hyborian World, and you don't want narrative control because you don't want literary protagonism in your game, Nathan Dowdell will tell you that this probably isn't the game for you.  The narrativium is too entrenched to change without making some fundamental alterations to how Doom is gained and what it can be spent on.

You remove Doom entirely, the highest difficulty class is unattainable, and the GM must rely solely on Momentum, which means you have to remove the shackles the system puts on GMs.

If why 2d20 isn't particularly loved on this site surprises you, you must not know this site very well.

Plus it's just another IP that's been around for decades being snapped up by the Narrative OOC Bunch.

Quote from: CRKrueger;979244The system is 2d20, so you roll...2d20.  Every action, skill, attack, etc where you roll that 2d20, you can choose to add up to 3 dice to potentially roll 5d20.

The kicker is, it's unlimited.  No matter how injured the character is, no matter how many dice they have already purchased, they can keep rolling 5d20, all roll, every roll.

So why wouldn't you do that?  Notice I said purchased.  Whenever you gain a d20, you give the GM a Doom Point.  Now this could work as a setting conceit perhaps in Mutant Chronicles with the Dark Symmetry, or Star Wars with the Dark Side, or Warhammer with Chaos, but it basically assumes something the character is consciously or unconsciously bargaining with.

In Conan, it's kind of hard to argue the in-setting use of such a thing.  "Effort" or "Stamina" obviously don't work due to the unlimited, repeatable nature of the purchase.

So it's not a choice that a Conan character can actually make.  The player must make it, meaning that even if the player is deciding to make that choice because this action is something the character really cares about,  then they are exercising a form of authorial narrative control, changing the rules of the setting from an OOC perspective to simulate the great feats of characters like Conan.  It also serves as a way to "pulp up" the action.  As the characters become more and more deadly, the GM has more Doom Points to summon reinforcements, invoke special powers, and do a whole lot of things that the rules, by RAW, do not let the GM do without Doom expenditure.

Doom, therefore is by definition, narrativium (and called such by one of the Conan developers), it exists for the players and GM to tweak the current game as they like to make it more like a Howard Story.

If you don't want to play in a Howard Story, rather in the Hyborian World, and you don't want narrative control because you don't want literary protagonism in your game, Nathan Dowdell will tell you that this probably isn't the game for you.  The narrativium is too entrenched to change without making some fundamental alterations to how Doom is gained and what it can be spent on.

You remove Doom entirely, the highest difficulty class is unattainable, and the GM must rely solely on Momentum, which means you have to remove the shackles the system puts on GMs.

If why 2d20 isn't particularly loved on this site surprises you, you must not know this site very well.

Plus it's just another IP that's been around for decades being snapped up by the Narrative OOC Bunch.

It was Skywalkers thread that convinced me to buy it and your play test that makes me think my group would enjoy playing it.

Quote from: HorusArisen;979247It was Skywalkers thread that convinced me to buy it and your play test that makes me think my group would enjoy playing it.

I've been responsible for a few sales on this site, so Jason can't get mad at me too much, even if we do get into it over whether or not the game is OOC narrative.

My players liked it, just not as what they would term a normal roleplaying game session.

I was just telling Trond where the negativity was coming from, and for you, honestly I think it's probably fairer to say not that you don't see the problems, but that for you they aren't problems.  Bug/Feature kinda thing.

Yeah, if your group likes it, go for it.  It's fun, whether the night you play it is called "Roleplaying Night" or "Other Games Night". :D

I've kind of thought of running the published adventures as In Media Res adventures and calling the semi-campaign "Legends of Hyboria".  Since they all occur at the time Conan is adventuring, and my Mythras campaign is post-Hour of the Dragon, it could be a way to fill in the stories of Hyboria by having the players play through them using a narrative system.

I can have a Storytelling rpg help fill in the stories told in my IC immersive campaign.

The system is a mix of rpg & boardgame mechanics. A friend of mine who plays GM and is big fun of Conan and Howard seems to like it very much. I was sceptical at first but so far the game was very enjoyable for us.

Quote from: CRKrueger;979255I've been responsible for a few sales on this site, so Jason can't get mad at me too much, even if we do get into it over whether or not the game is OOC narrative.

My players liked it, just not as what they would term a normal roleplaying game session.

I was just telling Trond where the negativity was coming from, and for you, honestly I think it's probably fairer to say not that you don't see the problems, but that for you they aren't problems.  Bug/Feature kinda thing.

Yeah, if your group likes it, go for it.  It's fun, whether the night you play it is called "Roleplaying Night" or "Other Games Night". :D

I've kind of thought of running the published adventures as In Media Res adventures and calling the semi-campaign "Legends of Hyboria".  Since they all occur at the time Conan is adventuring, and my Mythras campaign is post-Hour of the Dragon, it could be a way to fill in the stories of Hyboria by having the players play through them using a narrative system.

I can have a Storytelling rpg help fill in the stories told in my IC immersive campaign.

I'm pretty lucky with a group that tend to not let mechanics get in the way of roleplaying so yeah these things are rarely a negative for us, that said I'm still determined our next long campaign will be using Mythras.

Quote from: CRKrueger;979244The system is 2d20, so you roll...2d20.  Every action, skill, attack, etc where you roll that 2d20, you can choose to add up to 3 dice to potentially roll 5d20.

The kicker is, it's unlimited.  No matter how injured the character is, no matter how many dice they have already purchased, they can keep rolling 5d20, all roll, every roll.

So why wouldn't you do that?  Notice I said purchased.  Whenever you gain a d20, you give the GM a Doom Point.  Now this could work as a setting conceit perhaps in Mutant Chronicles with the Dark Symmetry, or Star Wars with the Dark Side, or Warhammer with Chaos, but it basically assumes something the character is consciously or unconsciously bargaining with.

In Conan, it's kind of hard to argue the in-setting use of such a thing.  "Effort" or "Stamina" obviously don't work due to the unlimited, repeatable nature of the purchase.

So it's not a choice that a Conan character can actually make.  The player must make it, meaning that even if the player is deciding to make that choice because this action is something the character really cares about,  then they are exercising a form of authorial narrative control, changing the rules of the setting from an OOC perspective to simulate the great feats of characters like Conan.  It also serves as a way to "pulp up" the action.  As the characters become more and more deadly, the GM has more Doom Points to summon reinforcements, invoke special powers, and do a whole lot of things that the rules, by RAW, do not let the GM do without Doom expenditure.

Doom, therefore is by definition, narrativium (and called such by one of the Conan developers), it exists for the players and GM to tweak the current game as they like to make it more like a Howard Story.

If you don't want to play in a Howard Story, rather in the Hyborian World, and you don't want narrative control because you don't want literary protagonism in your game, Nathan Dowdell will tell you that this probably isn't the game for you.  The narrativium is too entrenched to change without making some fundamental alterations to how Doom is gained and what it can be spent on.

You remove Doom entirely, the highest difficulty class is unattainable, and the GM must rely solely on Momentum, which means you have to remove the shackles the system puts on GMs.

If why 2d20 isn't particularly loved on this site surprises you, you must not know this site very well.

Plus it's just another IP that's been around for decades being snapped up by the Narrative OOC Bunch.

Oh, yes, I do remember the tendencies here, so I kinda guessed that it had to do with "story" features of the game. But thanks for pointing out the details of it. I have played Houses of the Blooded several times with great success, so it doesn't bother me much, unless it is poorly implemented. Not sure about this one, maybe I can make it work.

Quote from: CRKrueger;979244The system is 2d20, so you roll...2d20.  Every action, skill, attack, etc where you roll that 2d20, you can choose to add up to 3 dice to potentially roll 5d20.

The kicker is, it's unlimited.  No matter how injured the character is, no matter how many dice they have already purchased, they can keep rolling 5d20, all roll, every roll.

So why wouldn't you do that?  Notice I said purchased.  Whenever you gain a d20, you give the GM a Doom Point.  Now this could work as a setting conceit perhaps in Mutant Chronicles with the Dark Symmetry, or Star Wars with the Dark Side, or Warhammer with Chaos, but it basically assumes something the character is consciously or unconsciously bargaining with.

In Conan, it's kind of hard to argue the in-setting use of such a thing.  "Effort" or "Stamina" obviously don't work due to the unlimited, repeatable nature of the purchase.

So it's not a choice that a Conan character can actually make.  The player must make it, meaning that even if the player is deciding to make that choice because this action is something the character really cares about,  then they are exercising a form of authorial narrative control, changing the rules of the setting from an OOC perspective to simulate the great feats of characters like Conan.  It also serves as a way to "pulp up" the action.  As the characters become more and more deadly, the GM has more Doom Points to summon reinforcements, invoke special powers, and do a whole lot of things that the rules, by RAW, do not let the GM do without Doom expenditure.

Doom, therefore is by definition, narrativium (and called such by one of the Conan developers), it exists for the players and GM to tweak the current game as they like to make it more like a Howard Story.

If you don't want to play in a Howard Story, rather in the Hyborian World, and you don't want narrative control because you don't want literary protagonism in your game, Nathan Dowdell will tell you that this probably isn't the game for you.  The narrativium is too entrenched to change without making some fundamental alterations to how Doom is gained and what it can be spent on.

You remove Doom entirely, the highest difficulty class is unattainable, and the GM must rely solely on Momentum, which means you have to remove the shackles the system puts on GMs.

If why 2d20 isn't particularly loved on this site surprises you, you must not know this site very well.

Plus it's just another IP that's been around for decades being snapped up by the Narrative OOC Bunch.

This sort of answer is why I like this site. Smart guys express for me my thoughts and feelings with words I would not have come up with.

Beating the dead horse yet again.

One huge problem is that the central mechanic of the game makes no sense at all in a "howardverse" narrative for me. I can make go with "narrative" rules if it works by the logic of enhancing genre convention. Problem is that the meta-economy game of 2d20 does no such thing for the setting since it was created for something very different.

Quote from: Madprofessor;978732The Doom mechanic, in one stroke, pits the GM in an adversarial role against the players while giving the the players the power to decide how much power the GM has. The whole game has a Karmic cosmic balance kind of feel in that the characters can accomplish almost anything they want by manipulating the cosmic economy, but the consequence is that they unleash the GM to screw with them in doing so.  So you have this feel of "my success will bring trouble or suffering later" - and that just has nothing to do with Howard.

"Their chief is Crom. He dwells on a great mountain. What use to call on him? Little he cares if men live or die. Better to be silent than to call his attention to you; he will send you dooms, not fortune!"
-- Conan, "Queen of the Black Coast"

"I have marked you well, Conan of Cimmeria, and the stamp of mighty happenings and great deeds is upon you. But dooms are loose in the land, against which your sword can not aid you."
-- Epemitreus the Sage, "The Phoenix on the Sword"

"As an avalanche sweeps onward, gathering bulk and momentum, I will sweep into the lands of mine ancient enemies."
-- Natohk the Veiled One, "Black Colossus"

Doom, momentum, and fortune... used in the context we use them in the rules.

People forget how much REH implied a grand cosmic struggle in the Hyborian Age, from Mitra's direct intervention with Conan in "The Phoenix on the Sword" and "Black Colossus", to the regular mentions of Set's sinister influence upon the world.

Quote from: Madprofessor;978732He's the line developer, not the game designer. He is a fantastic writer who "gets it," and who gets Conan, and he's a hell of good guy to boot. He came here to the RPGsite and debated 2d20 Conan mechanics with us for days.  But the game was already designed by Jay Little for Mutant Chronicles and his hands are tied.  I have no doubt that Jason, Jeff, and a whole stable of artists and writers will deliver some great material - but the game still sucks.

As I've said before, Jay's design input was minimal. I'm not dissing him... it's just that in two years of managing this line and six months of being involved prior, I've never spoken to him, haven't seen his name on an email, haven't had anyone refer to him.

Nathan Dowdell and Benn Graybeaton are the primary designers of note for the 2d20 system, and both are actively involved with Modiphius. I communicate with Benn on a near-daily basis about design issues (and yes, I have influence), though Nathan is focusing on Star Trek.  

Another huge influence was Michal Cross' Drifting Through Space (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/114499/Drifting-Through-Space--A-Free-SciFi-RPG). Check it out. It's free. You'll see the base of the system there.

And thanks for the kind words! :)

Got to say Jasonthat personally I think the game looks great. The setting material is being thoroughly mined for my Mythras  game and I like the look of the mechanics  so hope to run the game itself in the not too distant future.

Quote from: Jason D;980800"Their chief is Crom. He dwells on a great mountain. What use to call on him? Little he cares if men live or die. Better to be silent than to call his attention to you; he will send you dooms, not fortune!"
-- Conan, "Queen of the Black Coast"

"I have marked you well, Conan of Cimmeria, and the stamp of mighty happenings and great deeds is upon you. But dooms are loose in the land, against which your sword can not aid you."
-- Epemitreus the Sage, "The Phoenix on the Sword"

"As an avalanche sweeps onward, gathering bulk and momentum, I will sweep into the lands of mine ancient enemies."
-- Natohk the Veiled One, "Black Colossus"

Doom, momentum, and fortune... used in the context we use them in the rules.

People forget how much REH implied a grand cosmic struggle in the Hyborian Age, from Mitra's direct intervention with Conan in "The Phoenix on the Sword" and "Black Colossus", to the regular mentions of Set's sinister influence upon the world.

Pretty unfair to use sources and facts in discussion on RPGSite.

Personally I never could get the "using Fate points or Doom or some other abstract thing breaks my immersion" argument. If thats the case then a glance at your character sheet, looking up a modifier or rolling dice would seem to have the same effect. Now thats just my opinion, I know many feel differently. None of that sort of thing breaks the level of immersion I typically play in and Ive always considered myself and the games I run pretty 'deep' where that immersion is concerned. I suppose its another 'to each their own' thing. I personally find miniatures destroy immersion while others cant play without them.

Quote from: Jason D;980800"I have marked you well, Conan of Cimmeria, and the stamp of mighty happenings and great deeds is upon you. But dooms are loose in the land, against which your sword can not aid you."
-- Epemitreus the Sage, "The Phoenix on the Sword"

So this 'Doom' mechanic in the game represents the PC making deals with gods? Kind of like Clerics in DCC and their 'Disapproval' rating that can come back and bit them in the ass if they overdo it?

Quote from: Simlasa;980886So this 'Doom' mechanic in the game represents the PC making deals with gods? Kind of like Clerics in DCC and their 'Disapproval' rating that can come back and bit them in the ass if they overdo it?

That's the thing: not really.  It could represent that, but it's unlimited, nearly every 2d20 roll you make is open to the choice of whether to add 1-3 more 2d20 or not.  So a game in which you try to link it to something associated in the game becomes a little weird if you can bust out herculean effort or invoke the name of Crom every time you do something.  It's you the player deciding this is where your character "Pulls a Conan" and does something great, knowing that the GM will then at some point "Pull a Howard" and throw those dice back at you.

They *could* have customized the system further and somehow associated the choice to buy dice and give the GM Doom to something in the Conan setting or about the Conan players, but they did not.  The conceit of the game is your characters are characters in a Howard story and you and the GM have these tools to ratchet up the action, tension and pulpiness if you so choose.

In practice, some of my players found it not as OOC as it sounds and simply policed themselves, only adding dice when they were really pissed or really desperate and filed it away under "kinda like Luck points".  Others felt the constant choice distracting.  One of them tried to get into the Storytelling aspect of it, but then the mook rules and range bands yanked him into skirmish wargame mindset, so oddly enough, the narrative player I have had the biggest problem with the rules as written.  I flushed mooks and range bands after the first adventure though.

Quote from: CRKrueger;980935The conceit of the game is your characters are characters in a Howard story...

Except that there is no such conceit. But by all means, continue.

I am in a quandary about the Conan RPG. The mechanics look like such a mixed bag and the reviews have not been making me feel any better, but Jason D is a great representative for Modiphius and his take on aspects of the game sound good and make sense. It may wind up being one of those games I prefer to play than run. I have to join in a FLGS or convention demo and see how it feels. Same with Star Trek.

Quote from: Jason D;980966Except that there is no such conceit. But by all means, continue.

The choosing to buy dice is something tied directly to something the character is doing to increase their chances, or not.  If not, then it's OOC, and the player is doing it because they want the character to do well, overperform, etc.  They're exercising narrative control.

Nathan Dowdell has stated one of the main influences on his design ideas was the Cortex system.  Ben calls the various metagame currencies "narrativium".  They've both talked about how the ebb and flow of the currency is designed to mimic the ebb and flow of action and plot in a Howard Story.

What In-Setting conceit do the settings of The Hyborian Age, Barsoom, Mutant Chronicles, Star Trek, and Infinity all share (since they use the same tweaked system) that allows them to all have the same Buying Dice mechanic with a different name?

Face it, from a game design perspective, the Buying Dice/Doom mechanic RAW is an OOC narrative control mechanic.

Some players, that won't change how they play at all, just some more Luck Point thingies.
Other players, that will be a barrier to immersion.
Other players, will love the narrative control and eat it up.

Whether or not it bothers someone, doesn't change what it is.  If someone never thinks about whether they are making this decision IC or OOC, and doesn't care one way or the other, it doesn't change whether the decision is IC or OOC.

Quote from: Jason D;980800People forget how much REH implied a grand cosmic struggle in the Hyborian Age, from Mitra's direct intervention with Conan in "The Phoenix on the Sword" and "Black Colossus", to the regular mentions of Set's sinister influence upon the world.

You're right, the Mitra/Set duality is there just as much as the Mythos intersection.

Our group has done one 'test drive' so far, and it will be added to our regular rotation in the future.

Pros
- Less 'currency' to keep track of than D&D 5E. You have Fortune points, Doom and Momentum versus Bardic Inspiration Dice, Supremacy Dice and all the other class specific 'narrative currency' therein.
- Reach matters. Engage a Pikeman when you have a dagger? It will be difficult unless you either break Guard or surprise him when he doesn't have it at which point your dagger
has a good chance of ending things rather quickly.
- Melee , Ranged and Morale attacks all have their place. Archers, while deadly , typically have a brief time to shine in a fight unless protected from Melee engagement.
- Sorcery is extremely rare and seems to be as dangerous to its practitioners as it is to their enemies.

Cons
- Zone use takes some getting used to, but I can see that it lends itself well to fairly large scale battles.
- Deadly. This is a pro and a con, but as a GM (largely due to being new to the system) the tipping point between cakewalk and TPK seems a bit narrow.

Overall we had a blast and are quite happy with it so far.

Quote from: Jason D;980800And thanks for the kind words! :)

Well, I try to call it as I see it :) Besides your fantastic resume' of RPG work, which has provided me, my friends and my family with a great deal of enjoyment, you have also put up with rant after rant from me on your current project, and you still find the patience to respond to me with measured grace.

So with much respect:

The doom/momentum mechanics, that forms the overarching structure of the system, are narrative control OOC mechanics that force players to make Out of Character decisions on every die roll situation. A spade is a spade, and as I said, I try to call it as I see it. It is a narrative game that is very difficult to play as a traditional IC game. That's the truth of it.

To be fair, I have probably beaten "the 2d20 system sucks" drum too loudly. The OP did ask for an "opinion."  The mechanics do not suit my IC immersive traditional style (sorry about all the theory buzz words, I'm not sure how else to describe it).  I have rarely encountered a game that I couldn't make work for me - this is one. However, I am sure others will enjoy the game, and I hope they do.  

What bothers me the most I think is that I really enjoy the IP, but will not be able to enjoy the game.  I really wanted the ultimate Conan RPG.  For me, due to the 2d20 momentum/doom mechanics, that didn't happen, and it may be a long time before the IP finds another official system.  Until then, I am just SoL, and back to modifying old games (which is harder to sell to new players then a shiny new game).

That said, I backed the kickstarter in full (Horde level) to mine the game for setting inspiration and ideas.  It is the only kickstarter I've ever backed.

QuoteTheir chief is Crom. He dwells on a great mountain. What use to call on him? Little he cares if men live or die. Better to be silent than to call his attention to you; he will send you dooms, not fortune!"
-- Conan, "Queen of the Black Coast"

"I have marked you well, Conan of Cimmeria, and the stamp of mighty happenings and great deeds is upon you. But dooms are loose in the land, against which your sword can not aid you."
-- Epemitreus the Sage, "The Phoenix on the Sword"

"As an avalanche sweeps onward, gathering bulk and momentum, I will sweep into the lands of mine ancient enemies."
-- Natohk the Veiled One, "Black Colossus"

Doom, momentum, and fortune... used in the context we use them in the rules.

People forget how much REH implied a grand cosmic struggle in the Hyborian Age, from Mitra's direct intervention with Conan in "The Phoenix on the Sword" and "Black Colossus", to the regular mentions of Set's sinister influence upon the world.

These are interesting examples, but I don't really buy the argument.  Fate and the puppet strings of cosmic balance may have been an occasional element, but it was not the general and pervasive theme that ran through the stories. Themes of freewill (whether real or illusory), and man's struggle vs uncaring nature are everywhere.  That Conan trods the jeweled thrones of the age beneath his sandaled feet has nothing to do with the cosmic struggles of Mitra or Set, or some unknowable threads of fate. He seizes life by throat and builds an empire with his own hands.  That theme is extremely clear.  Conan may be a superstitious barbarian who fears gods and magic, but this fear is not the same as a universe that reacts to mortal action out some higher purpose.  There are unintelligible cosmic horrors, and cults and religions that seek to name, grasp or even control them, but you do not have a world where characters shape those cosmic forces through everyday action.  In 2d20 Conan, players are always presented with the situation where their character can choose to succeed or excel at any task as long as they are willing to accept the cosmic repercussions. This just doesn't represent Howard's vision.

Your first example above from Queen of the Black Coast is a call to self-reliance, as is Crom's religion throughout the stories.  Your second example of Epimitrius supports your claim somewhat, but it was Howard's first Conan story and these notions cosmic destiny give way to the more dominant themes of of "destiny is what you make it" as the stories continue.  Black Colossus is the primary return to the Epimitreus' claim from Phoenix that Conan is some kind of pawn in Mitra's plan.  But Natohk's visions do not come to pass, Yasmela chooses Conan randomly in her religious stupor, and though both characters believe desperately in fate, the reader never sees fate in action, only people's belief in it.  If there was some kind of cosmic forces at play in Black Colossus, Conan's wits, skill, and freewill undoes it.

Cheers

I find it so depressing that a game about one of the greatest table top rpg licensing opportunities in existence focuses on a bunch of fiddly fucking mechanics. For gods sake, when will our hobby stop grinding itself into dust by re-inventing the wheel over, and over, and over again. There are probably a dozen long-existing, well proven and well liked game systems that would be a great basis for conan game. Pick one and go.

Quote from: Larsdangly;981227I find it so depressing that a game about one of the greatest table top rpg licensing opportunities in existence focuses on a bunch of fiddly fucking mechanics. For gods sake, when will our hobby stop grinding itself into dust by re-inventing the wheel over, and over, and over again. There are probably a dozen long-existing, well proven and well liked game systems that would be a great basis for conan game. Pick one and go.

Which one would you choose?

As of yesterday, I suggest Conan GMs take a look at Exemplars & Eidolons.
http://www.rpgnow.com/product/144651/Exemplars--Eidolons

Quote from: Spinachcat;981250As of yesterday, I suggest Conan GMs take a look at Exemplars & Eidolons.
http://www.rpgnow.com/product/144651/Exemplars--Eidolons

Why? At a quick glance it's another level based class game derived from D&D. What about it makes it particularly suitable?

E&E is a solid choice for rules light heroic fantasy for people who like OSR systems. It's not-D&D features are the ones I think are particularly interesting for Conan.

But if class + level isn't your jam, then E&E won't work. In that case, I'd recommend Stormbringer 3rd edition by Ken St. Andre - aka, stripped down RuneQuest with demon and elemental magic.

As others have said, the new Conan RPG has great potential to be resource books for other games.

Quote from: Spinachcat;981264E&E is a solid choice for rules light heroic fantasy for people who like OSR systems. It's not-D&D features are the ones I think are particularly interesting for Conan.

But if class + level isn't your jam, then E&E won't work. In that case, I'd recommend Stormbringer 3rd edition by Ken St. Andre - aka, stripped down RuneQuest with demon and elemental magic.

As others have said, the new Conan RPG has great potential to be resource books for other games.

I'm mining it for Mythras but I'm genuinely curious about what's good in E&E. what are the non D&D features that make you go ooo. As conversation on this site goes I'm fan of talking about why your a fan of stuff not shredding your opinion because mine varies.

So whilst I've downloaded E&E for a look any highlights? Lowlights? Etc

Did anyone mention Savage Worlds "Beasts and Barbarians"? Pretty solid Conan-analog.

Quote from: HorusArisen;981275I'm mining it for Mythras but I'm genuinely curious about what's good in E&E. what are the non D&D features that make you go ooo. As conversation on this site goes I'm fan of talking about why your a fan of stuff not shredding your opinion because mine varies.

So whilst I've downloaded E&E for a look any highlights? Lowlights? Etc

Obviously I only speak for myself, but I'd say E&E would work fine for Conan. My first choice would still be Beasts and Barbarians for Savage Worlds, but E&E has some really strong points that B&B lacks.

1. The Fray Die: I've sung its praises in the past, but I think more games where the players portray really powerful heroes should have mechanics like this. It's a damage die that dealt out automatically to lesser foes every round, and it lets a party of heroes wade into a horde of enemies and start ripping them apart even with characters who have just started their adventuring careers.

2. Classes: While I'm not a huge fan of class-based systems, E&E is one of the best in that the classes (warrior, rogue, and sorcerer) are not strict rails and characters can multi-class easily. More than that, they can dip into the Gifts of other classes to pick up some of their abilities. So making all sorts of different character types is easily doable.

3. Gifts: Gifts are the real meat of the game. They're awesome, and they're what make the heroes so much better than typical heroes. If only normal D&D Feats were like this.

4. Wealth: Characters don't bother counting every copper piece; wealth is more abstract and used for big purchases. Characters have plenty of money to get by unless the GM decides otherwise. In a Conan game, this means fortunes could easily be won and lost without a lot of bookkeeping.

5. Influence and Adventuring: E&E is the precursor to Godbound, and as such it has a simplified version of the fleshed-out rules for tackling big projects its big brother uses. Wanna root out a corrupt thieves' guild or topple a hostile kingdom? There's advice on how to handle it, and as with all of Kevin Crawford's stuff the systems work. This is huge, and there are a number of Gifts that tie into this simple Influence system to let heroes complete Big Damn Undertakings, which would work great for something like Conan.

Lowlights for me would be few and far between, but probably the one area where I would knock a point off is in the sorcery section. As a whole, it's great. I love how the spells are organized and the way they are accessed. My problem is with how saving throws work; more precisely, my issue is with how some spells (particularly damage spells) call for them, others don't mention saving throws at all, and some say they hit automatically. On the surface it seems almost arbitrary and makes me a little suspicious of their balance. I've just let them be used as-is and it hasn't been a problem at low levels, though if I ever tried a full campaign with the system I'd likely treat spell saving throws like they were in Godbound so that lesser foes don't roll but important enemies always get a chance to save.

For me, the best Conan RPG is Mythras, hands down.  But...

If you can handle the Doom mechanic of 2d20, it is a pretty fun system, the combat has nice detail without being so crunchy it's unwieldy.

If you wanted Savage Worlds, Beasts and Barbarians using elements from Totems of the Dead, Solomon Kane, Horror Companion, Realms of Cthulhu, etc. would work.

Going even lighter, there's Barbarians of Lemuria.

I've used BRP to great effect.  Mythras is practically ready-made. I prefer BoL to Savage Worlds. I really want to like SW but it is hard to get past the quirky math and gimmicks. Besides BoL is great for hackers.  

I think skill based systems are better suited for Hyborian Age then class/level systems, and I think gritty systems fit the tone better than cinematic over the top ones. That said, I ran mongoose Conan for a year and had a great time (although the game didn't handle the setting well past about 8th level).

So, anybody here try Beasts and Barbarians?  I have the core book, but there is a ton of other stuff out for it.  What is the quality of the other Beasts and Barbarian products/setting/adventures?  I've been on the fence about them for some time about it.

Quote from: CRKrueger;981331For me, the best Conan RPG is Mythras, hands down.  But...

If you can handle the Doom mechanic of 2d20, it is a pretty fun system, the combat has nice detail without being so crunchy it's unwieldy.

If you wanted Savage Worlds, Beasts and Barbarians using elements from Totems of the Dead, Solomon Kane, Horror Companion, Realms of Cthulhu, etc. would work.

Going even lighter, there's Barbarians of Lemuria.

Is the Doom mechanic essential or can it be stripped out?

Unfortunately, no-one ever made anything for Conan for Mythras, although they did have that Legend campaign trilogy that were very similar to Conan. Can't quite remember their names!

For what it's worth, the game that captures the spirit the most, for me, was the Astonishing Swordsmen and Sorcerers of Hyperborea. Very old school D&D, but something in the art and the tone just gets it right.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;981420Unfortunately, no-one ever made anything for Conan for Mythras, although they did have that Legend campaign trilogy that were very similar to Conan. Can't quite remember their names!

For what it's worth, the game that captures the spirit the most, for me, was the Astonishing Swordsmen and Sorcerers of Hyperborea. Very old school D&D, but something in the art and the tone just gets it right.

The Spider Gods Bride, Citadel Beyond the North Wind and Song of the Beast Gods are the ones I think you mean. There's a fourth called The Silver Lotus I think, for pathfinder.

The first three are excellent adventures and source books. The forth is pathfinder.

Quote from: HorusArisen;981427The Spider Gods Bride, Citadel Beyond the North Wind and Song of the Beast Gods are the ones I think you mean. There's a fourth called The Silver Lotus I think, for pathfinder.

The first three are excellent adventures and source books. The forth is pathfinder.

Yep, that was them. Never managed to get time to run them, but they were very clearly written in a Conan style.

Very much so and easily updated to Mythras.

The setting is a nice pastiche of Conan, Kull and various others that you don't need to read a dozen books for to feel your doing it justice.

Quote from: Voros;981419Is the Doom mechanic essential or can it be stripped out?

From the Quickstart it's almost impossible to remove.  The main game might be different, though.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;981438From the Quickstart it's almost impossible to remove.  The main game might be different, though.

Our group had a go with the quickstart too. Without being bogged down with arguments about thematic mechanics, we just honestly found the gameplay mediocre. It was a similar thing when we did the same with the Fantasy Flight version of Star Wars. The mechanics just seem to be there for their own sake. They didn't make us feel immersed in the world.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;981439Our group had a go with the quickstart too. Without being bogged down with arguments about thematic mechanics, we just honestly found the gameplay mediocre. It was a similar thing when we did the same with the Fantasy Flight version of Star Wars. The mechanics just seem to be there for their own sake. They didn't make us feel immersed in the world.

For me, the quick start felt more like FATE from my limited experience, there was a tug of war for resources so we could roll the best amount of dice.  I don't get that with FFG's Star Wars, but your mileage may vary.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;981440For me, the quick start felt more like FATE from my limited experience, there was a tug of war for resources so we could roll the best amount of dice.  I don't get that with FFG's Star Wars, but your mileage may vary.

Well, for me it's just the common conceit in both games that, in order to make a RPG interesting, you need to have convoluted dice rolling mechanisms. If the dice rolling processes draw more attention to themselves than the actual roleplaying my group just lose interest in the game fast.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;981420Unfortunately, no-one ever made anything for Conan for Mythras, although they did have that Legend campaign trilogy that were very similar to Conan. Can't quite remember their names!

Oh I did. Its sitting on one of my hard drives at the moment, and several fans have their own hacks. Unfortunately however, in my position I cannot release it into the wild.

Quote from: Pete Nash;981443Oh I did. Its sitting on one of my hard drives at the moment, and several fans have their own hacks. Unfortunately however, in my position I cannot release it into the wild.

Could you file out the IP references and just call it Mythic Hyperborea or something?

Quote from: HorusArisen;981249Which one would you choose?

The best Conan campaign I've run (and sometimes played in) used GURPS, which published a surprisingly good setting book and a series of solo-style adventures. Plus there is a lot of GURPS 3E material for historical settings that make really nice resources for a Conan game (China, Places of Mystery, Egypt, etc.). So, that's a pretty accessible and good choice.

If you were going to gin up your own setting materials, some version of Runequest/BRP is probably best. The magic from Call of Cthulhu is by far the best match (Howard was very influenced by Lovecraft), and you can basically bolt that on to any other BRP style game without having to make up new rules.

Quote from: Larsdangly;981450The best Conan campaign I've run (and sometimes played in) used GURPS, which published a surprisingly good setting book and a series of solo-style adventures. Plus there is a lot of GURPS 3E material for historical settings that make really nice resources for a Conan game (China, Places of Mystery, Egypt, etc.). So, that's a pretty accessible and good choice.

If you were going to gin up your own setting materials, some version of Runequest/BRP is probably best. The magic from Call of Cthulhu is by far the best match (Howard was very influenced by Lovecraft), and you can basically bolt that on to any other BRP style game without having to make up new rules.

I'm liking Mythras for it. Wouldn't mind a setting book from them but I'm sure I can pull plenty of info from the Mophidius books.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;981445Could you file out the IP references and just call it Mythic Hyperborea or something?

Since it is filled to the brim with quotes from the Conan stories and is specifically written to provide mechanical support for Hyborian creatures and cultures, it would gut the entire point of it. Gentlemanly behaviour towards Modiphious aside (who have to cover licencing costs remember); anything I personally write and throw out to the community is now vulnerable to legal challenge, placing TDM at risk - no matter any protestations on my side that it is for the fans and not intended to make money.

A Mythic Hyperborea is a bit academic anyway. If you look at the combat, magic, cults & brotherhoods it is obvious to many that Mythras is designed to run Howardian pulp fantasy out of the box, whilst Monster Island further expanded it to cover CAS literature. In the meantime I wholeheartedly support other poster's suggestions of using Xoth, GURPS Conan and the Modiphius books for background material.

Quote from: Voros;981419Is the Doom mechanic essential or can it be stripped out?

This was exactly my hope.  I regularly hack, cut, and paste games anyway and I figured I could make this work. In further analysis, and play testing I was both shocked and disappointed at how full ingrained the meta mechanics are in the system.  This isn't a game where you can just ignore hero points.  The game does not function, at all, without the meta currencies.

We discussed how to strip doom/momentum out of the game in depth in a thread over a year ago, but hell if I can find it.  It boils down the fact that to doom is the counterbalance and consequence for momentum and other narrative powers of the players. You cant remove the GM meta mechanics without removing the player meta mechanics, and you can't remove the player meta mechanics because even basic actions like casting spells or making armor saves require the use of narrative mechanical currency. FATE can be played as a fairly traditional IC game with a few adjustments, but the narrative mechanics are more fully enmeshed with core of the system in 2d20.  They cannot be removed without surgery to almost every aspect of the game and the result would be an unworkable mess unless you created a bunch of patches to fix it.  Maybe CRK can find the portion of thread where we deconstructed it in some detail.

Quote from: Madprofessor;981484The game does not function, at all, without the meta currencies

Obvious nonsense! The developers has officially stated, for the record, that if you don't like the Doom-mechanic (or more specifically, MC3's Symmetry-points - which is the same thing), you can just ignore them and play without.
When I inquired to the devs as to how exactly one would go about such a thing without a bunch of houserules exceeding the page count of the original game - crickets!.
I fear I shall still ponder this question at my deathbed.

Quote from: baragei;981496Obvious nonsense! The developers has officially stated, for the record, that if you don't like the Doom-mechanic (or more specifically, MC3's Symmetry-points - which is the same thing), you can just ignore them and play without.
When I inquired to the devs as to how exactly one would go about such a thing without a bunch of houserules exceeding the page count of the original game - crickets!.
I fear I shall still ponder this question at my deathbed.

Well, to be fair, my analysis on stripping out the meta game was based on the quick start rules and things may have changed.  I haven't looked at the game much since then. When I have time, I'll have to find the portion of thread where we deconstructed the quick start rules for feasibility of playing without the OoC mechanics so I can offer a little more concrete examples rather than just blather.  Whatever Chris or Nathan may have said officially or unofficially, I don't think you can't just ignore doom and momentum in the game as they are  integral to resolving action in the game (or at least were during quickstart), but by all means download the free quickstart and see for yourself.

I am still not finding the thread I  am looking for but I did find this post by CRK that speaks to it:

QuoteOriginally Posted by CRKrueger

Combat Momentum Uses

    Bonus Damage(1): A character can increase the damage inflicted by a successful attack, regardless of the type of attack. Each Momentum spent adds +1 damage.
    Confidence(1): The character gains 1 Morale Soak per Momentum spent (maximum 4) until the start of his next turn.
    Disarm(2/3): One weapon held by the target is knocked away and falls to the ground within Reach. This costs 2 points of Momentum if the target is holding the weapon in one hand or 3 Momentum if the weapon is braced or held in two hands.
    Penetration(1): The damage inflicted by the current attack ignores an amount of Soak equal to twice the Momentum spent.
    Re-roll Damage(1): The player may re-roll any number of damage dice from the current attack, 1 per Momentum spent.
    Second Wind(1): The character recovers 1 point of Vigor or Resolve for each Momentum spent.
    Secondary Target(1): A second target within Reach of the primary target is also affected by the attack, and suffers half the attack's damage, rounding down.
    Swift Action(2): The character gains an additional Standard Action, increasing the difficulty by one step on any skill test that action requires. This may only be done once per round.
    Withdraw(1): The character leaves the Reach of an enemy, without triggering any Retaliate Reactions.



Other Momentum Uses

    Speed(1): Perform a task in half the normal time.
    Interference(1): Increase an opponent's skill test difficulty by +1.
    Awareness(1): Ask the gamemaster a pertinent question about the situation, the characters present, or something else that the player character might be able to discern with that skill test.



Fortune Uses

    Bonus Die: Add an extra d20 to a skill test, up to the maximum of three additional d20s. The extra die is treated as having automatically rolled a 1.
    Bonus Action: Perform an additional Standard Action on your turn.
    Second Wind: Recover all lost Vigor or Resolve (choose one).
    Overcome Weakness: Ignore effects of Wounds or Trauma (choose one) until the end of the current scene.
    Story Declaration: Introduce a fact or add a detail to the current scene. The gamemaster may veto some story declarations, or require multiple Fortune points for particularly large or significant declarations.



So looking at these, a few points pop out.
1. With Momentum, there's very few things that you couldn't view from an IC/setting viewpoint, as part of "doing something really well and psyching yourself and others up to do well".
2. Fortune, however, is much more powerful, as it guarantees success, not to mention allows direct Narrative Editing and thus it is much more of a Player mechanic as opposed to a Character mechanic.

The ways to keep the system as character-facing as possible, based on my player's input, would possibly be to...

    Eliminate the "Buying Dice by Giving Doom" aspect. Then there's no "should I" thought involved. Any stuff the PCs spend is generated by their own success.
    Get rid of Mobs except as literal collectives like a School of Piranhas or Pit of Snakes.
    Make Momentum singular, no pool or cross spends (maybe a little hardcore).
    Be very careful with the Awareness Momentum spend.
    Get rid of Fortune entirely, it's too powerful to be fully IC.
    Make a range system.



So in essence, make the game a dual point system that neither side ever "banks". Now this is going to cause the GM a bit of work because if I want NPCs to do certain things, I must spend Doom. I also have to worry about how to do Reactions.

A simpler and less hardcore way to do it would be to get rid of Fortune, keep Momentum as is with a PC bank that erodes and Doom as a NPC bank that doesn't erode. However, without the "buying dice for Doom mechanic" you're going to end up having entire fights without spending any Doom as a GM no matter how well you're doing because you're going to want a Shaman to actually be casting spells at some point.

There's no way to fully make this game "intra-diegetic" as I see it without some serious reconstruction. The best you're gonna do is mitigate it to taste.

 

Quote from: Madprofessor;981401So, anybody here try Beasts and Barbarians?  I have the core book, but there is a ton of other stuff out for it.  What is the quality of the other Beasts and Barbarian products/setting/adventures?  I've been on the fence about them for some time about it.

Yeah, I've run a bunch of one-shots and short multi-session scenarios with it. It's a great S&S game and, with just a little work, could do Conan perfectly fine. It's often described as "Conan with the serial numbers filed off," though I can't say that's 100% accurate.

The various supplements and adventures vary a bit in usefulness. Stuff like the gladiator or pirate books are excellent for those sorts of campaigns and unnecessary otherwise. The extra setting material is good, and the adventures range from very mediocre ("Go here, kill some things") to very good. I particularly had fun with Shadows Over Ekul, where one of the party had to pose as a noble prince-type going to meet his (unwilling) fiancee and uncover the evil plot. In general, the longer adventures are pretty good while the short ones are very forgettable.

Quote from: CRKrueger;981331For me, the best Conan RPG is Mythras, hands down.  But...

If you can handle the Doom mechanic of 2d20, it is a pretty fun system, the combat has nice detail without being so crunchy it's unwieldy.

If you wanted Savage Worlds, Beasts and Barbarians using elements from Totems of the Dead, Solomon Kane, Horror Companion, Realms of Cthulhu, etc. would work.

Going even lighter, there's Barbarians of Lemuria.

There's also Crypts & Things from D101 Games: Crypts & Things | D101 Games (http://d101games.com/books/crypts-and-things/).

Quote from: Pete Nash;978062Hit Locations? 'And the Cimmerian came, with a desperate leap and a humming slash of his sword. The beautiful head rolled from the top of the screen in a jet of dark blood and fell at his feet, and he gave back, fearing to touch it.'

Piercing? 'Fighting as he had never fought before, straining every last ounce of effort to parry the blade that flickered like lightning about his head, Zaporavo in desperation caught a full stroke near his hilt, and felt his whole arm go numb beneath the terrific impact. That stroke was instantly followed by a thrust with such terrible drive behind it that the sharp point ripped through chain-mail and ribs like paper, to
transfix the heart beneath.

I think this stuff is great for NPCs and monsters, but not for PCs. Conan doesn't get stabbed in the heart or have his limbs crushed or severed in Howard's works. When he gets captured, it''s usually because of poison, magic, or a crack on the head he didn't see coming. In that sense, I find Mythras & Runequest to be ill-fitting. The increasing hit points in d20 works well for Conan, IMHO. He could fall 100' off a cliff onto a bed of razor sharp rocks and still live without any lasting injury. Any why is it? It's because he's Conan. Mythras doesn't allow for that type of 'immunity.' If Conan were to fall off that cliff in RQ/Mythras, he'd either be dead or a mass of shattered body parts and more than likely permanently maimed. When I designed Red Mists, I made the system to specifically allow for the hacking of enemies but not PCs.

As for the 2d20 Conan game, it seems too slow to me. Sword & sorcery combat should be fast & furious, and I'm not convinced the Modiphius system can do that.

As always, a matter of preference & opinion.

Quote from: 3rik;981571There's also Crypts & Things from D101 Games: Crypts & Things | D101 Games (http://d101games.com/books/crypts-and-things/).

Is that actually for sale and in print again? Every time I check it's out of print with a new edition pending.

Quote from: vivsavage;981578I think this stuff is great for NPCs and monsters, but not for PCs. Conan doesn't get stabbed in the heart or have his limbs crushed or severed in Howard's works. When he gets captured, it''s usually because of poison, magic, or a crack on the head he didn't see coming. In that sense, I find Mythras & Runequest to be ill-fitting. The increasing hit points in d20 works well for Conan, IMHO. He could fall 100' off a cliff onto a bed of razor sharp rocks and still live without any lasting injury. Any why is it? It's because he's Conan.

Thus we return to the perennial question of whether an RPG should be modelling the immunity of a literary setting's central character(s). We all know that Conan couldn't die otherwise Howard would have thrown away one of his most popular income revenues. Yet less egregiously than many authors since, he wrote the stories in such a way that Conan remains vulnerable to injury, being outnumbered, capture... heck, lets say it bluntly... losing and fleeing the fight every once in a while.

I like to think this is why many folks feel that BRP/RQ/Mythras is such a good fit. Its the feeling of vulnerability and recognition that Howard was striving to retell certain realities of combat, that these systems try to model: locational blows, single hit incapacitation, damage reducing armour, the ability to survive a fight by parrying, outmanoeuvring multiple foes, and so on.

The idea that Conan would bounce back up from a 100' fall onto sharp rocks, is to me the antithesis of the character. Instead I image that he might roll over the edge, but instead grab a ledge or root before he plummeted. But that's my own personal opinion.

Howard himself seems to have had a rather pessimistic view of falling...

'Take your plots to hell with you!' he roared, and like a sack of salt, he hurled the prince of Pellia
far out, to fall through empty space for a hundred and fifty feet. The people gave back as the body
came hurtling down, to smash on the marble pave, spattering blood and brains, and lie crushed in its
splintered armor, like a mangled beetle. - The Scarlet Citadel

...although the following quote supports your view of Conan's immunity, if not the distance dropped.

He did not fall any great distance, though it was far enough to have snapped the leg bones of a man
not built of steel springs and whalebone. - The Slithering Shadow

QuoteMythras doesn't allow for that type of 'immunity.' If Conan were to fall off that cliff in RQ/Mythras, he'd either be dead or a mass of shattered body parts and more than likely permanently maimed. When I designed Red Mists, I made the system to specifically allow for the hacking of enemies but not PCs.

Mythras instead offers Luck Points so that Conan wouldn't necessarily fall in the first place. Not that I have any problem with permanently maiming PCs. Those beggars have to come from somewhere right? ;)

QuoteAs for the 2d20 Conan game, it seems too slow to me. Sword & sorcery combat should be fast & furious, and I'm not convinced the Modiphius system can do that.

Totally agree that S&S combat should be fast and furious. I suppose my own preference is to avoid games where I feel immune until I have a handful of Hit Points left. Rather I want to embrace to feeling of risk at all times, since gambling my character's life makes the reward that much more satisfying (assuming I survive). However I have no idea whether Modiphius 2d20 embraces this sensibility as I've never had the pleasure of playing it.

QuoteAs always, a matter of preference & opinion.

Yes indeed. :)

Quote from: Dumarest;981582Is that actually for sale and in print again? Every time I check it's out of print with a new edition pending.

I don't see it up for sale at the moment which is too bad as it is excellent (in my top 3 OSR flavors).  It is basically OD&D or Swords and Wizardry plus Akrasia's house rules. (http://akraticwizardry.blogspot.com/2009/07/swords-sorcery-house-rules-index.html)

There are other details that Newt added as well, especially the setting and some backgrounds, so the book is worth picking up if you like sword and sorcery and OD&D.  I like Newt's stuff. It is not as polished as some, but his rules are no-nonsense.  Which reminds me that Openquest (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/211084/OpenQuest) is a good option for Hyborian Age adventures for those who feel Mythras is on the crunchy end of the spectrum.

Quote from: vivsavage;981578I think this stuff is great for NPCs and monsters, but not for PCs. Conan doesn't get stabbed in the heart or have his limbs crushed or severed in Howard's works. When he gets captured, it''s usually because of poison, magic, or a crack on the head he didn't see coming. In that sense, I find Mythras & Runequest to be ill-fitting. The increasing hit points in d20 works well for Conan, IMHO. He could fall 100' off a cliff onto a bed of razor sharp rocks and still live without any lasting injury. Any why is it? It's because he's Conan. Mythras doesn't allow for that type of 'immunity.' If Conan were to fall off that cliff in RQ/Mythras, he'd either be dead or a mass of shattered body parts and more than likely permanently maimed. When I designed Red Mists, I made the system to specifically allow for the hacking of enemies but not PCs.

As for the 2d20 Conan game, it seems too slow to me. Sword & sorcery combat should be fast & furious, and I'm not convinced the Modiphius system can do that.

As always, a matter of preference & opinion.

What you're talking about has nothing to do with Conan specifically.  It's generic Protagonist Immunity.  Also I just read The Black Stranger, where Conan spends the whole beginning of the story running from Picts, and can't fully outrun them because of a wounded leg, and can't elude them because of a wounded arm leaving a blood trail.

Quote from: CRKrueger;981644What you're talking about has nothing to do with Conan specifically.  It's generic Protagonist Immunity.  Also I just read The Black Stranger, where Conan spends the whole beginning of the story running from Picts, and can't fully outrun them because of a wounded leg, and can't elude them because of a wounded arm leaving a blood trail.

It is indeed protagonist immunity, which we seen in every sword & sorcery tale (except Elric!). The scene you just described fits very well for me, as it portrays the danger of the world he lives in. Nonetheless, it is my preference that characters not lose limbs or become crippled in the S&S games I play. It doesn't fit my vision of the genre at the game table, while hacking through swathes of temple guards does. Now, something like Mythras would be perfect for something like Harn, where that kind of realism is well suited.

Getting back to the Conan 2d20 game, I enjoy reading and looking at it. I would use its flavor and adventures for my own Red Mists RPG. But the mechanics are too fidgety and slow to portray the pacing of Conan's stories IMHO.

Quote from: Madprofessor;981643Which reminds me that Openquest (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/211084/OpenQuest) is a good option for Hyborian Age adventures for those who feel Mythras is on the crunchy end of the spectrum.

Can you tell me what differentiates Open Quest from something like Magic World or BRP?

Quote from: vivsavage;981578I think this stuff is great for NPCs and monsters, but not for PCs. Conan doesn't get stabbed in the heart or have his limbs crushed or severed in Howard's works. When he gets captured, it''s usually because of poison, magic, or a crack on the head he didn't see coming. In that sense, I find Mythras & Runequest to be ill-fitting. The increasing hit points in d20 works well for Conan, IMHO. He could fall 100' off a cliff onto a bed of razor sharp rocks and still live without any lasting injury. Any why is it? It's because he's Conan. Mythras doesn't allow for that type of 'immunity.' If Conan were to fall off that cliff in RQ/Mythras, he'd either be dead or a mass of shattered body parts and more than likely permanently maimed. When I designed Red Mists, I made the system to specifically allow for the hacking of enemies but not PCs.

Here, I just want to echo Pete and CRK, and maybe add a little bit.  The Hyborian Age is a grim blood and guts world, and a game needs to portray that to do it service.  Conan, who was a cut above other men in a kind of Neitzschean or Darwinist sort of way, was always in very real mortal danger in Howard's writing.  That's what makes it riveting and alive.

If you play a game where you know your character can't get maimed, go mad, or die then it will be impossible to capture excitement and savagery of Howard's world and/or stories.

Of course Conan didn't die, he was busy paying Howard's bills.  But you don't read Red Nails or Queen of the Black Coast thinking "I know Conan will win so there is nothing to fear or get excited about" and you wouldn't play a game that way either - it would do more than ruin the experience, it would make the whole effort pointless.

Ever read Conan of the Isles by L. Sprague de Camp and Lin Carter? It embraces the whole "Conan can't die attitude" and it is laughable because of it.  

QuoteAs always, a matter of preference & opinion.

I don't think it is. I never completely bought the whole "it's all subjective" relativism shtick, but that's an argument for another time and place. It is certainly a convenient way to move on when we disagree.

QuoteAs for the 2d20 Conan game, it seems too slow to me. Sword & sorcery combat should be fast & furious, and I'm not convinced the Modiphius system can do that.

This is great point! and one that have made over and over.  Whether you are playing IC or collaborate storytime, pace is critical in capturing the feel of Howard. You don't want a game that slows you down.  This was a problem for me with Mongoose Conan at higher levels - but it probably depends on the group's level of comfort with the rules.  Specifically with 2d20, players can always choose to roll extra dice to shoot for super successes so they are constantly weighing these decisions.  This drags the game down, especially if you have players with chronic analysis paralysis.

If I wanted to run a Conan/S&S campaign with a focus on vulnerability, danger, and risk, I wouldn't hesitate to use some variation of BRP. (Though, likely something more abstract like Elric!/Stormbringer than MRQ2/MRQ6/Mythras). Experiencing the Hyborian world as a developing character in the environment, and not as the pinnacle-protagonist-experience of playing Conan, himself.

If I wanted to more closely model a Conan story, where characters are practically superheroic, and can "hack[...] through swathes of temple guards", I'd use Barbarians of Lemuria. Easy fit; the characters, from the outset, are far above the abilities of normal men and can take on hordes of mooks.

I didn't have a positive experience as a player in a Mutant Chronicles 3 campaign last year, and wouldn't be inclined at all to use 2D20 for Conan. Frankly, I think the system sucks, and is bloated with nonsensical, complex-abstractionist rules. (Complex and abstract rules seems like it should be an oxymoron, but Modiphius found a way to do it). I'm sure that the game is all kinds of pretty, but the system wouldn't be worth the annoyance, for me.

Quote from: Madprofessor;981665Here, I just want to echo Pete and CRK, and maybe add a little bit.  The Hyborian Age is a grim blood and guts world, and a game needs to portray that to do it service.  Conan, who was a cut above other men in a kind of Neitzschean or Darwinist sort of way, was always in very real mortal danger in Howard's writing.  That's what makes it riveting and alive.

If you play a game where you know your character can't get maimed, go mad, or die then it will be impossible to capture excitement and savagery of Howard's world and/or stories.

I'm not suggesting that stuff, except for the maimed bit. Madness and death should certainly be a possibility.

Quote from: Dumarest;981582Is that actually for sale and in print again? Every time I check it's out of print with a new edition pending.

Quote from: Madprofessor;981643I don't see it up for sale at the moment which is too bad as it is excellent (in my top 3 OSR flavors).  It is basically OD&D or Swords and Wizardry plus Akrasia's house rules. (http://akraticwizardry.blogspot.com/2009/07/swords-sorcery-house-rules-index.html)

There are other details that Newt added as well, especially the setting and some backgrounds, so the book is worth picking up if you like sword and sorcery and OD&D.  I like Newt's stuff. It is not as polished as some, but his rules are no-nonsense.  Which reminds me that Openquest (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/211084/OpenQuest) is a good option for Hyborian Age adventures for those who feel Mythras is on the crunchy end of the spectrum.

You guys must not be looking in the right place because it's right here: Crypts and Things Remastered - D101 Games | Crypts and Things | DriveThruRPG.com (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/190299/Crypts-and-Things-Remastered).

And I agree on OpenQuest. There's an OpenQuest mini-setting with 4 scenarios for "arctic Conan with the filenumbers removed": The Savage North (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/81108/The-Savage-North).

Quote from: vivsavage;981656It is indeed protagonist immunity, which we seen in every sword & sorcery tale (except Elric!).

No, my point is it's every tale in which the Protagonist does not die, from Bruce Willis in Die Hard, to James Bond, to Bugs Bunny.  There's nothing about Sword & Sorcery as a genre that embraces Protagonist Immunity.

Saying my S&S hero shouldn't die or get crippled because {Sword and Sorcery Literary Hero} is nonsensical unless you're saying you want to play a game in which the character is a character inside a literary story, with an OOC eye towards literary genre.  In which case the operative effect is "literary genre" NOT "Sword and Sorcery".

Quote from: CRKrueger;981909Saying my S&S hero shouldn't die or get crippled because {Sword and Sorcery Literary Hero} is nonsensical.

I'm not saying that characters shouldn't die. Let's just leave it that I enjoy something like d20 Conan to Mythras for adventuring in the Hyborean Age.

Quote from: Dumarest;978530I prefer Howard/Conan over Tolkien/hobbits, but that's just utter nonsense:

Domestic box office gross (not counting video/DVD/whatever):
Return of the King
$377,027,325

Two Towers
$339,789,881

Fellowship of the Ring
$313,364,114

The Hobbit
$303,003,568

The Hobbit 2
$258,366,855

The Hobbit 3
$255,119,788

Foreign box office gross (not counting video/DVD/whatever):
Return of the King
$742,083,616

Two Towers
$583,495,746

Fellowship of the Ring
$555,985,574

The Hobbit
$718,100,000

The Hobbit 2
$700,000,000

The Hobbit 3
$700,900,000

Domestic box office gross (not counting video/DVD/whatever):
Conan the Barbarian (2011)
$21,295,021

Conan the Destroyer
$31,042,035

Conan the Barbarian (1982)
$39,565,475

Foreign grosses not readily available for all the Conan movies.

http://www.boxofficemojo.com/showdowns/chart/?id=vs-lotr.htm
http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=conan3d.htm
http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=conanthedestroyer.htm
http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=conanthebarbarian.htm

And you can compare book sales as well if you want further refutation of your assertion. Again, I like Conan better but the world does not. Tolkien's influence on modern fantasy is unfortunately far greater than Howard's. One needs only look at all the knockoffs of Tolkien clogging the bookshelves.

Apples and Oranges, you cannot compare box office receipts from movies more than 20 years apart. Even adjusting for inflation you are still comparing movies made under vastly different conditions, budgets, studio expectations, marketing etc.  

The 1978 Lord of the Rings took in $30.5 million with a $4 million budget
Excalibur (1981) took in $35 million, with an $11 million dollar budget.
Conan the Barbarian (1982) took in $39 million, with an $18 million budget.


The more recent LotR films ran 90-100 million each, the 3 Hobbit films each exceeded $200 million to make. Corrected for inflation Conan the Barbarian (1982) would have a budget of $33 million (2001) or $43 million (2012).


Honestly I don't get this line of discussion, it is sort of like arguing who is better Santa, Jesus or Buddha. Everybody knows the names and "best" is a rather personal choice. Harry Potter puts them both to shame if we just look at the bottom line.

There are lists that do adjust for inflation, like this one. (http://www.boxofficemojo.com/alltime/adjusted.htm) Not that that tells you anything about the quality of a film unless you think Gone with the Wind truly is the greatest film ever.

Quote from: Voros;982192There are lists that do adjust for inflation, like this one. (http://www.boxofficemojo.com/alltime/adjusted.htm) Not that that tells you anything about the quality of a film unless you think Gone with the Wind truly is the greatest film ever.

They can adjust for inflation, but another factor is that movies like Gone With the Wind were perennially re-released in an era when home viewing wasn't an option.

More importantly Gone with the Wind was released before TV when a far larger percentage of the population went to theatres to see films.

So other than CR does anyone have any extensive play experience with the game?

And aside from that how would you rate the art and setting material?

Quote from: Toadmaster;982188Harry Potter puts them both to shame if we just look at the bottom line.

Comparing the six middle earth films with the first six HP films, we have...

Sorcerer's Stone: $974,755,371    
Chamber of Secrets: $878,979,634
Prisoner of Azkaban: $796,688,549    
Goblet of Fire: $896,911,078    
Order of Phoenix: $939,885,929    
Half Blood Prince: $934,416,487    

TOTAL: 5,421,637,048

Fellowship of the Ring: $871,530,324    
Two Towers: $926,047,111    
Return of the King:  $1,119,929,521    
An Unexpected Journey: $1,021,103,568
Desolation of Smaug: $958,366,855    
Battle of the Five Armies: $956,019,788    

TOTAL: 5,852,997,167

Even if we were to somehow adjust for differences due to inflation (given that the Hobbit films were released after Half Blood Prince), the bottom line for each series would be virtually equal.

Anyways, how 'bout that Conan RPG? Nice looking book.

Quote from: vivsavage;982225Comparing the six middle earth films with the first six HP films, we have...

Sorcerer's Stone: $974,755,371    
Chamber of Secrets: $878,979,634
Prisoner of Azkaban: $796,688,549    
Goblet of Fire: $896,911,078    
Order of Phoenix: $939,885,929    
Half Blood Prince: $934,416,487    

TOTAL: 5,421,637,048

Fellowship of the Ring: $871,530,324    
Two Towers: $926,047,111    
Return of the King:  $1,119,929,521    
An Unexpected Journey: $1,021,103,568
Desolation of Smaug: $958,366,855    
Battle of the Five Armies: $956,019,788    

TOTAL: 5,852,997,167

Even if we were to somehow adjust for differences due to inflation (given that the Hobbit films were released after Half Blood Prince), the bottom line for each series would be virtually equal.

Anyways, how 'bout that Conan RPG? Nice looking book.

But we are comparing Tolkien and Howard, no one else. Why not add Star Wars and Pokemon if you just want to add irrelevant IPs?

Quote from: Dumarest;982231But we are comparing Tolkien and Howard, no one else. Why not add Star Wars and Pokemon if you just want to add irrelevant IPs?

Or we can try and keep the thread on point and discuss the RPG. A movie discussion probably belongs down in media

Nothing wrong with Mongoose Conan, it's a great version of the D20 System, and a great example of how to adjust the system to get what you want out of it.  We had a lot of fun with it, but for us, a pure skill system game just seemed to work better.  I have about half the line in hardcopy and the whole line in pdf from the 2d20 Kickstarter (that's what made the all-in pdf level a no-brainer for me) and use it all the time.  If my players voted to go back to it, I wouldn't like it as much, but I'd still like it.

I think D20 Conan was a great success for Mongoose, but when the D20 system lost popularity as a concept and the 2nd Edition book came out being a bit too large and with questionable printing quality it lost support. Mongoose lost the license when they proposed doing a RuneQuest version of the game - which I am assuming that the IP holders may have felt it was worth more than the RQ market share.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;982372I think D20 Conan was a great success for Mongoose, but when the D20 system lost popularity as a concept and the 2nd Edition book came out being a bit too large and with questionable printing quality it lost support. Mongoose lost the license when they proposed doing a RuneQuest version of the game - which I am assuming that the IP holders may have felt it was worth more than the RQ market share.

The losing of the license was all about the movie.  They thought the license would be worth more after the movie release.  The problem is they forgot to include in the movie license that it couldn't be a piece of shit. :D

Quote from: CRKrueger;982379The losing of the license was all about the movie.  They thought the license would be worth more after the movie release.  The problem is they forgot to include in the movie license that it couldn't be a piece of shit. :D

:D:p

Haven't seen it...even the commercials and ads looked like crap.

Still waiting for a good Conan movie...although I will admit Conan the Destroyer was a pretty good D&D movie.

Quote from: HorusArisen;982232Or we can try and keep the thread on point and discuss the RPG. A movie discussion probably belongs down in media

I merely responded to an idiotic assertion earlier that Howard has been more influential than Tolkien. Sadly, that is demonstrably untrue.

P.S. Get off the high horse, I've seen your tangential remarks plenty of times

Quote from: Dumarest;982389I merely responded to an idiotic assertion earlier that Howard has been more influential than Tolkien. Sadly, that is demonstrably untrue.

P.S. Get off the high horse, I've seen your tangential remarks plenty of times

lol that's not unfair

One thing that no one seems to understands about Sword and Sorcery is that the stakes are always personal.  Always.  Even if there's a world level threat, it's never that prominent, it's still about the protagonist.  A lot of games and definitely all the movies to date don't get.

Quote from: CRKrueger;982379The losing of the license was all about the movie.  They thought the license would be worth more after the movie release.  The problem is they forgot to include in the movie license that it couldn't be a piece of shit. :D

That's true. I recall that, and the movie was a piece of shit! I never understand why big corporations invest so much in movies, but never check to see if the script is any good. Or the direction. Or the casting. Still, well worth cancelling a game line for!

The funny thing is that the Dredd movie possibly devalued the Judge Dredd IP because it flopped, even though it was a pretty good movie. Mongoose dropped the JD licence this year to concentrate on other things (Traveller, mainly) - although it has been picked up by ENWorld since.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;982428That's true. I recall that, and the movie was a piece of shit! I never understand why big corporations invest so much in movies, but never check to see if the script is any good. Or the direction. Or the casting. Still, well worth cancelling a game line for!

The funny thing is that the Dredd movie possibly devalued the Judge Dredd IP because it flopped, even though it was a pretty good movie. Mongoose dropped the JD licence this year to concentrate on other things (Traveller, mainly) - although it has been picked up by ENWorld since.

It flopped because of the Stallone vehicle.  It flopped because it's a British satire that had little representation across 'the pond'.  That's the reason Dredd failed.

Conan failed because no one knows what a Sword and Sorcery adventure is all about.  Conan would be better served as an episodic series of 1 hour unrelated adventures on HBO or Netflix or whatever streaming service is hot right now.  Something with a decent budget but without the constant threat of world ending doom.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;982459It flopped because of the Stallone vehicle.  It flopped because it's a British satire that had little representation across 'the pond'.  That's the reason Dredd failed.

Hold on, which movie are we talking about? The Stallone Judge Dredd movie (which stunk to high heavens) or the Dredd movie which was awesome, but so violent it had to get an R rating and thus cut out the core 16 year old market from their viewing audience?

Quote from: Christopher Brady;982415One thing that no one seems to understands about Sword and Sorcery is that the stakes are always personal.  Always.  Even if there's a world level threat, it's never that prominent, it's still about the protagonist.  A lot of games and definitely all the movies to date don't get.

  I thought the first Conan movie portrayed that fairly well.  Sure Thulsa might eventually be a threat on the world scale, but when Conan is cutting his cult leader career short, he is still not a nation level threat (pretty sure he was just an issue for the local lord/"king" who if I remember right was king of a city state). Conan could give a shit less, he was there to kill the guy who killed his parents, and then his woman.  Period.   Later the scale of the issues grew to global issues.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;982459It flopped because of the Stallone vehicle.  It flopped because it's a British satire that had little representation across 'the pond'.  That's the reason Dredd failed.

Conan failed because no one knows what a Sword and Sorcery adventure is all about.  Conan would be better served as an episodic series of 1 hour unrelated adventures on HBO or Netflix or whatever streaming service is hot right now.  Something with a decent budget but without the constant threat of world ending doom.

  I agree with this.  I thought Oliver Stone's idea of how to handle Conan was closer to the feel.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;982472Hold on, which movie are we talking about? The Stallone Judge Dredd movie (which stunk to high heavens) or the Dredd movie which was awesome, but so violent it had to get an R rating and thus cut out the core 16 year old market from their viewing audience?

To clarify, until the 1995 Stallone flick, no one outside of Britain and some hard core fans knew what Dredd was about.  Then it came along, flopped but created a precedent.  Then the Urban film, which is leagues better, but is nothing like the Stallone flick, which everyone expected something similar with, and couple that with the small, niche market that even knew that the Stallone flick only got the technology look right and nothing else, it was destined to fail.

That's why it failed.

Compare to all the Conan films which were pretty bad from the word go, and no amount of hype would ever save them from that.

Quote from: oggsmash;982489I thought the first Conan movie portrayed that fairly well.  Sure Thulsa might eventually be a threat on the world scale, but when Conan is cutting his cult leader career short, he is still not a nation level threat (pretty sure he was just an issue for the local lord/"king" who if I remember right was king of a city state). Conan could give a shit less, he was there to kill the guy who killed his parents, and then his woman.  Period.   Later the scale of the issues grew to global issues.

No it didn't.  It had Conan whining at Crom.  The uncaring God of the Cimmerians, who if you entreat him will send you dooms, to make you strong enough to not have to call on any God for favours.  Because Crom gives man two things, life and strength to overcome anything.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;982542To clarify, until the 1995 Stallone flick, no one outside of Britain and some hard core fans knew what Dredd was about.  Then it came along, flopped but created a precedent.  Then the Urban film, which is leagues better, but is nothing like the Stallone flick, which everyone expected something similar with, and couple that with the small, niche market that even knew that the Stallone flick only got the technology look right and nothing else, it was destined to fail.

Ah, I see. Yes, it's easy to forget that the US knew nothing about Judge Dredd, when 2000AD comics were such an integral part of growing up for UK boys in the 1980s especially, and when Mega City 1 is an obviously American concept. I mean, people gush about William Gibson, but Judge Dredd was already satirising many of the ideas he presented five years prior!

Anybody in the US heard of Viz?

Quote from: Dumarest;982231But we are comparing Tolkien and Howard, no one else. Why not add Star Wars and Pokemon if you just want to add irrelevant IPs?

I was specifically responding to Toadmaster's assertion that the Harry Potter films "puts them both to shame."

Quote from: vivsavage;982556I was specifically responding to Toadmaster's assertion that the Harry Potter films "puts them both to shame."

Okay. I get you.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;982550Ah, I see. Yes, it's easy to forget that the US knew nothing about Judge Dredd, when 2000AD comics were such an integral part of growing up for UK boys in the 1980s especially, and when Mega City 1 is an obviously American concept. I mean, people gush about William Gibson, but Judge Dredd was already satirising many of the ideas he presented five years prior!

Anybody in the US heard of Viz?

Of course. Lots of people knew of Judge Dredd. The comics were repackaged here. I have a few. I wint say they sold like hotcakes but they sold well enough that the publisher kept reprinting them. I evsn have the Games Workshop RPG. Christopher Brady should always be taken with a massive dose of salt. Plus only he understands what true sword and sorcery is. Keep that in mind.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;982542To clarify, until the 1995 Stallone flick, no one outside of Britain and some hard core fans knew what Dredd was about.  Then it came along, flopped but created a precedent.  Then the Urban film, which is leagues better, but is nothing like the Stallone flick, which everyone expected something similar with, and couple that with the small, niche market that even knew that the Stallone flick only got the technology look right and nothing else, it was destined to fail.

That's why it failed.

Compare to all the Conan films which were pretty bad from the word go, and no amount of hype would ever save them from that.



No it didn't.  It had Conan whining at Crom.  The uncaring God of the Cimmerians, who if you entreat him will send you dooms, to make you strong enough to not have to call on any God for favours.  Because Crom gives man two things, life and strength to overcome anything.

  I dont disagree that was yet another mis step from the director considering the lore, however I miss how it was not still a personal issue and struggle in the nature of sword and sorcery.    It also got closer tone wise than pretty much any other sword and sorcery movie I have seen.

Quote from: oggsmash;982676It also got closer tone wise than pretty much any other sword and sorcery movie I have seen.

I've always thought of Conan the Barbarian as a great sword & sorcery movie - just a shit Conan movie.

Quote from: K Peterson;982678I've always thought of Conan the Barbarian as a great sword & sorcery movie - just a shit Conan movie.

I agree almost completely.  Wouldn't say "great" but "pretty darn good." Maybe great in comparison to others in the genre.

Quote from: K Peterson;982678I've always thought of Conan the Barbarian as a great sword & sorcery movie - just a shit Conan movie.

Bingo.

Quote from: K Peterson;982678I've always thought of Conan the Barbarian as a great sword & sorcery movie - just a shit Conan movie.

This is so true.

Quote from: vivsavage;982556I was specifically responding to Toadmaster's assertion that the Harry Potter films "puts them both to shame."

Franchise, not films. Harry Potter has brought in loads more money for its author. It has sold 400 million copies in what 20 years? to LotRs 150 million over 60 years. Granted part of that is timing and the fact JK Rowling has more financial interest in her works, while Tolkien was a professor who wrote some books on the side and practically gave the movie rights away.

But that was my point was you really can't just look at the bottom line figures and declare X franchise is more popular, well known, influential etc.
H.P. Lovecraft has influenced the horror genre well beyond the rather meager $$$ his books have made. If we only look at $$$ and records sold Justin Beiber actually matters (speaking of unspeakable horrors that man was not meant to know...)

I agree that Tolkien is very likely to be the better known Author, but Conan is a well known property outside of nerd circles, as is The Hobbit  / LotR. Tolkien's work has remained relatively pure and is still popular, Conan has had dozens of new stories by other authors, comic books, graphic novels, movies, and spin offs (Red Sonja).
Much as many fantasy games feel obligated to include hobbit like races, Conan basically defines the fantasy "barbarian" even if these rarely really "get" the Conan character right.
   
It just seems to me, a silly argument and making it all about $$$ adds to the absurdity.

Quote from: oggsmash;982676I dont disagree that was yet another mis step from the director considering the lore, however I miss how it was not still a personal issue and struggle in the nature of sword and sorcery.    It also got closer tone wise than pretty much any other sword and sorcery movie I have seen.

I give the '82 film credit for at least recognizing the works it was based on, it was obvious that the screen writer had actually read some of Howard's stories. There were several parts that closely line up with scenes from the stories. It wasn't perfect but it was much better than most S&S movies. I enjoy both of the 80s Conan movies warts and all. I would love to see one get made by a director / producer who really knows the Howard stories and has the freedom from the studios to do it right.

I still think the Saturday morning "Conan & the Cimmerians" cartoon from 1985 was the best version to date, although the musical interludes were out of character to me. I just don't see Conan playing drums for a kids' rock group.

Quote from: Dumarest;982688I agree almost completely.  Wouldn't say "great" but "pretty darn good." Maybe great in comparison to others in the genre.

It is certainly watchable. Almost all other S&S films from the 80s are swill though so that's not saying much.

can you guys take the TV/Movie discussion to the Media & Inspiration Subforum.

Quote from: K Peterson;982678I've always thought of Conan the Barbarian as a great sword & sorcery movie - just a shit Conan movie.

Actually, that's how I felt about the Hobbit trilogy. It's pretty good entertainment as a series of fantasy movies, but a pretty awful adaptation of the book.

In case you missed the mod's post:

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;983140can you guys take the TV/Movie discussion to the Media & Inspiration Subforum.

CAN YOU GUYS TAKE THE TV/MOVIE DISCUSSION TO THE MEDIA & INSPIRATION SUBFORUM

Here, I even made a thread for you. (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?37487-Conan-vs-Tolkien-vs-Harry-Potter)

Well that got loud fast! Remind me who it was who brought up movies in the first place?

Hmmmm....

Quote from: CRKrueger;982379The losing of the license was all about the movie.  They thought the license would be worth more after the movie release.  The problem is they forgot to include in the movie license that it couldn't be a piece of shit. :D

Anyway, where were we.....oh, yes, the Conan RPG suxx a$$!!!

Quote from: TrippyHippy;983190Well that got loud fast! Remind me who it was who brought up movies in the first place?

Hmmmm....

Anyway, where were we.....oh, yes, the Conan RPG suxx a$$!!!

That was the movie license, in the context of Conan RPGs. :D  The movie stuff via numbers, etc, started way before with Darrin Kelly.

Anyway, so far I've been happy with the adventures that have come out.  I wish the major sourcebooks (the "Conan the X" series) had an adventure in each one.

Quote from: CRKrueger;983187In case you missed the mod's post:



CAN YOU GUYS TAKE THE TV/MOVIE DISCUSSION TO THE MEDIA & INSPIRATION SUBFORUM

Here, I even made a thread for you. (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?37487-Conan-vs-Tolkien-vs-Harry-Potter)

That's it, you are on my list... :D



Perhaps somebody would be so kind as to answer my question from page 2. The bulk of this thread, minus the movie discussion has focused on why the 2d20 sux or doesn't and what game system should have been used. Very little discussion about the quality of the fluff, and the little that has been discussed frequently refers to d20 making it unclear if the Mongoose stuff or the person is dropping the 2 from 2d20.

I for one would be very happy to see some discussion of the material separate from the debate on the rules.

and just to save people the trouble of finding my post, I'll quote myself below

QuoteThe description of the system doesn't appeal to me. How well does the material work for use with another system?
 I didn't care for the d20 version either, but did buy a few of the better rated books because the source material was good and useful beyond the d20 system.

Quote from: Toadmaster;983333That's it, you are on my list... :D



Perhaps somebody would be so kind as to answer my question from page 2. The bulk of this thread, minus the movie discussion has focused on why the 2d20 sux or doesn't and what game system should have been used. Very little discussion about the quality of the fluff, and the little that has been discussed frequently refers to d20 making it unclear if the Mongoose stuff or the person is dropping the 2 from 2d20.

I for one would be very happy to see some discussion of the material separate from the debate on the rules.

and just to save people the trouble of finding my post, I'll quote myself below

As source material it's excellent (reading the Conan books at the moment for comparison), the core book is obviously just that so you are bumping against system as you read but if that doesn't bother you then you'll have plenty of mineable material.

The system I'd have to run to give an honest educated opinion on but nothing I've read gives me to much pause.

Oh and although I've only flicked through so far the adventures and sourcebook look equally as useful whether playing 2d20 or for use in your system of choice.