Quote from: stupidquestion;796810A bit complicated issue, especially due to usual forum misunderstanding, therefore i see no good reason to discuss it much.

You should have stopped at not discussing your mindset. Its not possible to misunderstand what you wrote, because what you wrote is incoherent to the point that any proper understanding of it is impossible.

Quote from: Spinachcat;796812Kinda like Gandalf smoking pot in LotR.

Oh wait, that's toke'em-ism. Nevermind.

Gandalf smoked pipeweed. Tom Bombadil was clearly the one smoking the pot.

Quote from: Old Geezer;796836There is a HUGE difference between "Sexuality never comes into my game," and "when sexuality comes into my game it's always straight hetero man on top."

When you are right. You are right.

I can't say that homosexuality has overtly come up a lot in my 40 years of gaming experience. Because it didn't seem like something the people I was playing with were interested in that as a plot hook. So why spend time on setting detail that isn't going to be used. If a PC is interested in flirting with or getting amorous with an NPC barkeep or castle ruler, the NPC's reaction is determined by a random die roll. If they turn out to be uninterested in PC, it seldom matters much why they didn't find the PC attractive and in their prey range. Maybe they don't like his or her type. Maybe they aren't attracted to his or her gender. Who cares. It's a game that's supposed to be fun for the people at the table, not a political manifesto.

On the other hand, one of the players in my Honor+Intrigue game is playing a French courtier who is secretly gay...or maybe he's bisexual. It's hard to say for sure since the character's also seduced a couple of Duchesses in his role as a spy. But that seems to have been work rather than pleasure. However, since the topic now has game relevance and interest as a hook for the player, the subject of NPC sexual orientation occurs. So some NPCs do have known orientations. Though often that orientation may only be known to the GM unless someone (NPC or PC) chooses to let it be known or seeks to discover it.

Since my game is set in a historical fictional France of 1623 it's also worth keeping in mind that at that time, for royals, nobles, and the wealthy and landed folks marriage was a way of uniting families and forming alliances. They were seldom affairs of the heart. Quite a few royals and nobles in the period were thought (even at the time) to be interested in fooling around with their own gender.

Quote from: stupidquestion;796756Seemingly, while d & d gave a nod to one specific issue, they are currently not in "paizo mode" championing some issues, though the risk is there due to positive feedback they received for their nod. Sounds tolerable for the moment, considering the system looks fine.

Yes - given that they are part of Hasbro, a big corporation, I don't think they will go Full Paizo. Maybe Paizo ca 2007, with the occasional gay couple among the NPCs. Not Paizo ca 2013.

Honestly, thinking back it rarely comes up in MY games. I think I've had some gay or lesbian NPCs. There have been married couples but most were straight because, again, social mores.

In stuff I've published, it hasn't come up, mainly because generally what I've written is snippets of vignettes, encounter tables, or the NPCs are all snake or rat people...

Quote from: Ravenswing;796786female NPCs actually holding more than 5% of positions of authority and power,  [/COLOR]

It's about 65% in Paizo stuff.

Quote from: S'mon;796846Marriage in Golarion is kinda gay.

says it all really S'mon.  By gay I assume you mean BAD here?  :S

Quote from: S'mon;796846I don't know about B2, but you are wrong about Isle of Dread - no married couples there - and In Search of the Unknown does not say anything about the marital status of either adventurer AFAICR, though I think one is indicated to have had a lover.

I remember reading through City State of the Invincible Overlord and finding not one married couple in all the hundreds of NPCs. It's implied that the two owners of Naughty Nannies might be romantic as well as business partners; that's it.

In Paizo stuff I can recall three married couples - secretly-lesbian Queen Ileosa who poisons her husband King Eodred in Curse of the Crimson Throne, the happily married innkeeping couple in Kingmaker, and the couple in Wrath of the Righteous.  99%+ of NPCs are not listed as married; and probably 99.9% of non-homosexual (heterosexual or unspecified) NPCs are not listed as married. Marriage in Golarion is kinda gay.

...and as for heterosexuality = norm, just read any module with a village/ town in it from the past....and the main household form is a man and woman.

eg: the Village of Homlett.  Eg Sandpoint.  Eg Fallcrest in 4e. etc etc.

key npcs who are involved sexually with someone else (ie couples) are invariably, nearly exclusively heterosexual.  Wrath of the Righteous was relatively unique in how it tackled decades of 'symbolically annihilating' LGBT npcs by including them in the story..... not perfectly by any means (& there was a big debate about the over-representation of succubi and underrep of incubi I seem to remember on rpgnet - reflecting stereotypes about women's sexuality).... but it was a start nevertheless.  And because it hadn't been done before in a mainstream scenario (to my knowledge) for D&D/PF, then this was, for some, a nasty shock!    For me it was a nice surprise.

Quote from: Will;796816What level is Irabeth?? Radiance is one hell of a sword!

Starts at just 5th, I think.

Quote from: Will;796853On another note, one potential problem with 'inclusivity' is White Hat Syndrome.

I saw this most often with online gaming, where the minute your Victorian gentleman said anything negative about lesser races, EVERY SINGLE PC rushed over to tell you how horrible you were and how inclusive they were and bla bla bler bla.

I play a lot of historical games. Call of Cthulhu in the 1920s and the 1890s. Honor+Intrigue in the 1620s. Having every PC act exactly like an enlightened 21st century North American or Western European just annoys the shit out of me. Why even bother playing a game set in another time.

And as for avoiding the White Hat syndrome, the gay spy thinks that stroppy servants should be beaten. Because* he thinks beating makes them better servants and keeps them in their place. He's a noble after all. He just happens to like-like other guys. That doesn't mean he thinks a servant is equal to a gentleman.


* And because people back then did beat their servants. In The Three Musketeers D'Artagnan is having trouble with his new valet, Planchet. His friends (the other three heroes of the story) advise young D'Artagnan to beat Planchet. He promptly does so. And Planchet immediately becomes a better and more loyal to his master.

Quote from: RPGPundit;796815And of course, if you've got a world that's like Classical Greece, or ancient India, or the pre-columbian Maya, then its just silly to be talking about the U.S. 21st century heterosexual-homosexual male-female divides at all.

I'd go further - modern notions only started to take shape in mid 19th century north-western Europe (& offshoots - USA etc), and there have been several smaller shifts since in western conceptions of sexuality. Of course these social constructions are also partly rooted in inherent (pre-social) nature, but the same was equally true for the Greeks, Maya etc.

I've sometimes considered running a fantasy game where elves pretty much had 21st century western etiquette, beliefs, and attitudes.
And the humans had medieval etiquete, beliefs, and attitudes.

'My Lord Iscliath, ... the messenger has returned from the human kingdom.'
"And?"
'We are awaiting the healers.'
"... Wait, what?"
'She was raped repeatedly and there's not much left of her face. We're trying regeneration potions.'
"What the fucking fuck? Ok, screw this, mount up the siege treants."

I've played RPG campaigns with gay dudes so its been natural in those campaigns for there to be gay NPCs. I'm a bastard, so in Planescape, I had a gay smoke mephit who wouldn't stop with the innuendo and kept treating the male PCs as man meat.

But I've not included (for whatever reason) gay NPCs in campaigns where we did not have gay players or gay PCs. Out of sight, out of mind? It certainly wasn't a statement about the setting.

Quote from: CRKrueger;796803If I write a movie about a soldier who goes of to war, I can make a whole lot of political statements in that movie.  Guess what scene isn't making one though?  The one that shows him waving goodbye to his mother and father.

Why not?

It's got the whole subtext of the old vote for war and the young fight their war. It has the whole mom gives birth to the soldier and now sends her child off to die.

Lots of political subtext...if the writer / director / audience wants it.

Quote from: Brad;796814Post #666. My work here is complete.

Hail Brad!!!

Hail Satan!!!

Quote from: S'mon;796857It's about 65% in Paizo stuff.

Yeah. A made-up figure.  When I have time I may try and go through my APs from Paizo and count em up - by year....but this is unlikely.

The realities of our sexist world find women only owning 1% of the world's wealth  - source Wall Street Journal  -quoting the UN http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2011/09/18/new-facts-on-the-gender-gap-from-the-world-bank/ in 2011.

All being equal, 52% population = women, thus they should own 52% wealth and have 52% of positions of power.

I sincerely believe that this is nowhere near the case in Paizo products.... Yes, they are better represented in Paizo products than in mediaeval Europe, but heck - this is meant to be a game we are playing, and a fantasy one at that!  Thus, why does this bother you? Moreover you see female empowerment when it doesn't really exist still in gaming... yes it is improving.... what is wrong with women having power?!!

Quote from: BenTheFerg;796840Yes - we play games.  To have fun!  Thing is, some gamers are lesbian, gay, bi or trans.  Others of us have friends who are.  Some of us are keen to have different sexual orientations in their games.  Quite frankly: what is your problem?!

Why have LGBT characters in games?  A better question - why not? Why deliberately exclude them?

Some gamers are: divorced, bald, widows, triplets, lactose intolerant, elderly, obese, musically gifted, or terrified of spiders. Are D&D adventures that don't feature NPCs who have those traits 'deliberately excluding them?'

Quote from: BenTheFerg;796840Personally I think it is really refreshing that finally games writers are catching up with 21st century social mores.  Not only will this be affirming to members of minority groups who are gamers, it also makes for new and thus more interesting stories.... re-telling the same narratives, eg there is a princess who has been captured by an ugly hag....go rescue her etc..... gets tired.... Just as Shrek the movie reinvented fairy stories by inverting them and updating them with modern social mores, so too can the same be done to fantasy roleplaying scenarios.  Thus for me, this is an excellent development and I look forward to greater verisimilitude in all areas of gaming life.  There is still a long way to go yet however.

That's cool that you enjoy that. Personally, I don't enjoy fantasy worlds that model our own modern mores and values. I also read a lot of historical fiction (a lot more than fantasy, actually). And I will discard any book where modern values and thoughts anachronistically impinge on the setting. Because I find brutal, strange, and cruel worlds far more satisfying settings for adventure than worlds with modern values. Tolerance, justice, and compassion are excellent credos for the world we live in. But they're enervating to the kind of drama and adventure I enjoy in fiction and gaming.

Quote from: Bren;796854So why spend time on setting detail that isn't going to be used. If a PC is interested in flirting with or getting amorous with an NPC barkeep or castle ruler, the NPC's reaction is determined by a random die roll. If they turn out to be uninterested in PC, it seldom matters much why they didn't find the PC attractive and in their prey range. Maybe they don't like his or her type. Maybe they aren't attracted to his or her gender. Who cares. It's a game that's supposed to be fun for the people at the table, not a political manifesto.

Yep. If it comes up, I'll handle that stuff with a random roll.

Quote from: BenTheFerg;796840The same can be said about the focus of narratives on faux-white mediaeval societies...

Faux-white? What, they think they're white, but really they're some other colour? Reminds me of the Sudanese 'Arabs' who to the untrained eye are indistinguishable from the Sudanese 'blacks', but are very proud of being 'not black'... But I'm guessing you meant something else, probably something more SJW-y.

Quote from: S'mon;796870Faux-white? What, they think they're white, but really they're some other colour? Reminds me of the Sudanese 'Arabs' who to the untrained eye are indistinguishable from the Sudanese 'blacks', but are very proud of being 'not black'... But I'm guessing you meant something else, probably something more SJW-y.

no. I meant that the default setting for many games is a fake/ faux mediaeval setting where the default ethnic group is Caucasian.

Personally, if I was going to run fantasy that wasn't set in Glorantha (where the elves are a different kind of weird already) I'd rather run Elves more like Irish/Celtic Fairies* or the Elves in Poul Anderson's Three Hearts and Three Lions and The Broken Sword.


* The not at all like humans, often tricky, sometimes benevolent, sometiimes malicious, beautiful and perilous but you better call them the Fair Folk so as not to annoy them kind of Fairies.