Oh no, being transgender was not portrayed as evil and immoral, lets get the pitchforks. :rolleyes:

Quote from: stupidquestion;796339@CRKrueger
As many of you are going to consider my question to be stupid, i thought it would be an honest name. Since i have no interest in posting here except for getting information about what to expect from D&D ( preferably also in the long run, but thats of course somewhat guessing), so i can decide whether to buy, i do not understand what your problem is.

The name is appropriate.

I think most "information" you might get here about what to expect from D&D will be speculation.

A paladin, sworn to self sacrifice and utter devotion to helping others, to alleviating the plight of the suffering?

Sounds perfectly in line, unless the divine of your setting is kind of an asshole.

I mean, heck, maybe someone's Divine Order forbids using salad forks and the paladin didn't know. Woops!

Edit:
Mind you, I'm imagining a very compelling LG Fighter who has a chip on his shoulder that the Gods are wrong about gays (or trans, or whatever), and was never able to become a paladin.

You'd be best off waiting until there's a specific book that's been released that you might want to buy, and asking about that one book.  But without giving an exhaustive list of things that offend you, you also need to find a forum that's in perfect agreement with your tastes.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;796341Oh no, being transgender was not portrayed as evil and immoral, lets get the pitchforks. :rolleyes:

Well yeah, because obviously the OP adapting the adventure to something he can use is totally out of the question. :rolleyes:

Quote from: stupidquestion;796339And thats of course not the only example, but the most blatant and annoying, paladin selling her magic sword directly for personal pleasure and indirecty for authors "commentary" is nuts on so many levels.

Well so far there is none of that in 5th ed. There is a single entry in the PHB telling players to play what they want. Whatever gender or orientation. nothing new or outlandish there. Guys have been playing amazons since probably the get go and gals have been playing barbarians about as long. Nothing new there either and it doesnt even indicate orientation. The player just felt like playing outside the box.

WOTC so far has not shown the occasionally ham handed agenda Pazio has. And the paladin example given is a bit excessive. But seems to fit the odd bias Pazio likes. The base idea is a valid and good one. I just dont like how Pazio pushes it.

So Id say that 5e you arent going to see those sorts of issues. WOTC seems to trust the players to sort this out for themselves rater than be hit over the head with it.

Quote from: rawma;796352But without giving an exhaustive list of things that offend you, you also need to find a forum that's in perfect agreement with your tastes.

Such list is implicit in "political" commentary, but to give it explicitely:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/03/democratic-party-platform_n_1853120.html

The opposite list aka republican program is of course also meant.


I would prefer to buy rpg entertainment products that mostly or completely shut up about those topics, which are matter of more or less current political campaings, especially if the entertainment product picks a side. (And yes, i am aware that some form of entertainment e.g. television regularly picks a side, but that doesnt change my preference in respect to RPG products)

@iandimitri

Speculation is sufficient, since in retrospect when checking earlier comments, speculation and products from/about paizo, i realized, i could have spotted a lot earlier, that their products are from my POV deficient in that respect. Hence, speculation will do fine.


@Will

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin
"Through a select, worthy few shines the power of the divine. Called paladins, these noble souls dedicate their swords and lives to the battle against evil. Knights, crusaders, and law-bringers, paladins seek not just to spread divine justice but to embody the teachings of the virtuous deities they serve. In pursuit of their lofty goals, they adhere to ironclad laws of morality and discipline. As reward for their righteousness, these holy champions are blessed with boons to aid them in their quests: powers to banish evil, heal the innocent, and inspire the faithful. Although their convictions might lead them into conflict with the very souls they would save, paladins weather endless challenges of faith and dark temptations, risking their lives to do right and fighting to bring about a brighter future."

Note especially "these noble souls dedicate their swords and lives to the battle against evil" and "their convictions might lead them into conflict with the very souls"; these are dedicated warriors who put their cause, which is hacking evil into bits and pieces and upholding the good law, above mere feelings, preferences or needs of individuals, which might profit from the paladin being a little less zealous.

Selling one's sword to help someone to deal with a mostly psychological and non-life-threatening condition just because one is emotionally attached to the person is perfectly fine for CG, more or less ok for NG, maybe for some LG (depending upon whether their presonal duties allow separation from their weapon) but not for paladins, which "dedicate their swords and lives to the battle against evil".


Furthermore, there are other needy in this scenario, namely the inhabitants of insufficiently defended small villages and towns, which tend to suffer from raids from demons in that scenario.

But maybe thats the point where my understanding fails, i simply cannot comprehend, why suffering from biologically being male although female would be preferred is even remotely relevant enough to giving away useful weapons, when real demons can any moment smash in your door and rip out your arms and legs to keep you alive long enough to enjoy them slowly devouring your loved ones. I just don't get it.

(Note, in our world the calculus might be different, because real demons do not smash in doors in this world, so helping those with "gender issues" would rank more closer to the top of the priority list.)

edit: I guess more shortly described, the highlighting of political "issues" of our world in a fantasy world, which has radically different problems, causes for me a total immersion failure. With such a scenario i am then not in Golarion or elsewhere, i am then at a democratic national convention or so.

@Bren
I prefer not to pay for stuff, which needs to be repaired directly, if there is chance i might get stuff that works as i prefer.

Quote from: stupidquestion;796339As many of you are going to consider my question to be stupid, i thought it would be an honest name. Since i have no interest in posting here except for getting information about what to expect from D&D ( preferably also in the long run, but thats of course somewhat guessing), so i can decide whether to buy, i do not understand what your problem is.

We might consider YOU a piece of work, but no, your question isn't stupid.

The answer isn't hard: in any roleplaying work, the odds are pretty good that the authors are going to set forth some descriptions of (a) how morality works in that game, or (b) how the populace generally feels about various moral issues.  The odds are pretty damn good, I expect, that one or more of those tenets will conflict with one or more of your personal views.

To imagine that this is "social commentary" is idiocy.  One of my two parties is set in the elven empire, which is characterized as a haven of goodness and enlightenment.  Among other traits, the child-happy elves view birth control as suspect and abortion as a disgusting crime.

You might find this incongruous with me being a sometime abortion-rights activist, but like many another creator of fictional settings, my setting doesn't necessarily reflect my political or social views.

But that's really a side issue.  Your question is really "How can I guarantee that I'll never see any concept I might find morally distasteful in a RPG product?"

One answer is: you can't, don't try, and if this bothers you that much, then design your own setting -- where you're in complete control of what people believe -- and have done with it.

Another answer is right here.

Quote from: stupidquestion;796373Such list is implicit in "political" commentary, but to give it explicitely:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/03/democratic-party-platform_n_1853120.html

The opposite list aka republican program is of course also meant.

Your issues go well beyond RPGs.

QuoteSelling one's sword to help someone to deal with a mostly psychological and non-life-threatening condition...

Really? Non-heterosexuality is not a psychological condition. That's really fucking rude, ignorant and insulting to a lot of people. Obviously not anybody that you would ever associate with, but those still actually are real people. You might even have to deal with them in real life sometimes (gasp!).

Next, you'll start telling us that vaccines cause autism, and same-sex marriage promotes beastiality. Where do you live and what year is it there?

QuoteBut maybe thats the point where my understanding fails, i simply cannot comprehend, why suffering from biologically being male although female would be preferred is even remotely relevant enough to giving away useful weapons, when real demons can any moment smash in your door and rip out your arms and legs to keep you alive long enough to enjoy them slowly devouring your loved ones. I just don't get it.

It's called a poorly written love story. PF modules are not high literature. You're stuck on the fact that it's not a mommy and daddy in love.

Quoteedit: I guess more shortly described, the highlighting of political "issues" of our world in a fantasy world, which has radically different problems, causes for me a total immersion failure. With such a scenario i am then not in Golarion or elsewhere, i am then at a democratic national convention or so.

Yeah, like I said: I don't think this issue is really about RPGs.

Quote from: Spinachcat;796333Link?

Anybody got a link?

I had to go digging around because like most good trivia, I have no clue where I picked that one up. What I found seems to focus on the iconic characters through.

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2i8wy&page=12?Homosexuality-in-Golarion#584

http://www.jimzub.com/the-inclusive-fantasy-world-of-pathfinder/

You know, you can enjoy something while not agreeing with the author's personal views about non-gaming things.

But saying this to a person who thinks that homosexuality and transgenderism are of "Evil" alignment... is kind of pointless.

B.T wherefore art thou?

Okay, well I'm glad this guy answered/asked, at least, so I can safely ignore his opinions, now.

Quote from: Necrozius;796390You know, you can enjoy something while not agreeing with the author's personal views about non-gaming things.

Usually i do, but not when the author actively tries to voice his opinion and form the readers opinion and thats not what i want to buy.

Quote from: Necrozius;796390But saying this to a person who thinks that homosexuality and transgenderism are of "Evil" alignment... is kind of pointless.

Funny, because i never said i consider homosexuality and/or transgenderism evil. The only thing i more or less said is that a paladin in a "frontline setting" selling a decent magical sword to please her lover and herself and further her marriage is acting selfishly enough and so much in disrespect of her sworn duty, that she needs attonement. I even said that the behavior might probably fit CG, so nothing with calling it evil. And no statement about how homoseyuality/transgenderism itself is to be qualified morally.

On the other hand, paizo staff members explicitely stated that good gods may not be against marriage equality, which is rather close to saying opposition to marriage equality is evil. And its not that that message shocks me much or puts me in anguish, after all the US supreme court majority last year said something very similar. Its that i simply do not want to pay anybody for telling me something about politics, which i already know and can read in nearly every newspaper, when i am paying for a game meant for my enjoyment.

@Ashoka
What is the rage about? According to the storyline, the paladins lover is deeply unhappy about being biologically male. What is insensitive to call that a "condition"? She/he is unhappy about her/his situation and usually when somebody is deeply unhappy about something, that something is ngeatively affecting her/him and it would be nice if the situation could be alleviated. I realy do not know why it is insensitive to call that negative situation a condition, considering it has negative psychological effects upon the person.

"Yeah, like I said: I don't think this issue is really about RPGs."
Yes, because its about paying for A and getting also B, so its about lack of information about a product.


@Ravenswing
"To imagine that this is "social commentary" is idiocy. One of my two parties is set in the elven empire, which is characterized as a haven of goodness and enlightenment. Among other traits, the child-happy elves view birth control as suspect and abortion as a disgusting crime."
The difference is, paizo would declare such a society to be evil, probably lawful evil. You probably do not put that society on the evil side, thereby avoiding the commentary.

"but like many another creator of fictional settings, my setting doesn't necessarily reflect my political or social views."
Difference with paizo (and i suspect some other companies) is their settings reflect their political and social views and are meant to reflect and to be understood that way. Therefore i made the comparison to some congress of a political party. Paizo is pro-cant-name-it-because-i-would-probably-use-the-wrong-wording-and-therby-be-insensitive and clearly communicates this through their published material. Fine. I just have no desire to pay for that.

As evidence:
http://paizo.com/products/btpy90q9/discuss&page=10?Pathfinder-Adventure-Path-73-The-Worldwound-Incursion
" James Jacobs Creative Director    Aug 20, 2013, 10:23 PM | Flag |
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James Jacobs
Kittyburger wrote:

    I would like to see Paizo's internal notes on how LGBTQ+ characters fit into Golarion, sometime and somehow... not that I ever expect to see them published in a formal book anywhere (a girl can dream, though...), but we've seen enticing hints here and there.

    I've written up a for-personal-use list of the deities of Golarion I think would be particularly trans friendly and I sometimes wonder how it matches up to Paizo's.

    (If Anevia's devotions are any indicator, though, I bet there's a fairly close confluence between my list and Paizo's)

Those notes are basically as follows:

GLBT characters exist in Golarion, so make sure they're included.

As long as Paizo continues to have GLBT employees, we'll continue to put GLBT characters into our products. In fact, even if the employee thing changes, we'll still put GLBT characters into our products. As long as I have anything to say about it at least. There's a gay couple in the next adventure, in fact, so the inclusiveness isn't stopping with Anevia and Irabeth in this AP.

Furthermore, I'm gonna keep doing this in our APs until it's no longer an issue and folks just talk about the adventure without really pausing to discuss whether any one NPC is a sorcerer or wizard. And at that point I'll keep doing it.

Anyway... keep on topic. And since there are LBGT characters in the adventure, that part of the discussion IS on topic... but keep it civil, please!"

He obviously wants to include a certain message into the products he is responsible for. He is free to do so and i am free to see this as negative and buy elsewhere. Just have to check whether other companies do something similar.

edit:
And for people misreading, the issue is not having LGBT-chars in, the issue is use them in a way to make a political statement. But thats included in James Jacobs intent, because he posted this just in the discussion about that selfish paladin, so the message was fine with him, although i think he does not comprehend how the message distils down to a "pro-LGBT as paizo understands good, anthing else evil".

@Omega
Thanks for your guess.

It's also D&D. Magic swords are not exactly uncommon. When I've played 3e, it wasn't unusual to loot weapons that were a bonus behind or equal to what we already had, or even better, but we just preferred whatever we had. (Like 'well, I really like having my +2 Greatsword, so I'm going to pass on the +3 Longsword... I'll take my share of the treasure to work on improving my Greatsword's bonus later)

Also, in Pathfinder, if the paladin has a weapon bond... the sword is actually fairly unimportant and mostly a RP thing.
If the weapon is sold or destroyed, the paladin is at a -1 penalty to attacks/damage and can't bind with another weapon for a month... and then can pick up any sword and be fine.

So in terms of 'effectiveness at fighting demons,' it's making a life-changing benefit to someone vs. one month of being slightly sub-par in combat. And, depending, the party might have another sword on hand that will do at least ok.

Rules here:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin