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Axes versus Maces

Started by Eric Diaz, July 15, 2023, 11:27:03 AM

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Eric Diaz

Quote from: jhkim on July 15, 2023, 04:39:03 PM
Quote from: ForgottenF on July 15, 2023, 01:38:52 PM
I also don't care for those kind of conditional modifiers. I'd rather not have my players have to keep asking what kind of armor the enemy is wearing before they roll their attack. The attack roll is probably the most commonly made one in D&D, so it benefits the most from the players being able to internalize their modifier and then not think about it for a while.

Also, if some weapons are better against some armor, then unless they have weapon specialization, fighters will have a set of weapons in a draw bag and pull out the right one to fight with based on the enemy. Do you want to encourage this as behavior? It is logical tactics.

Quote from: ForgottenF on July 15, 2023, 01:38:52 PM
I've always liked the way that 3.x and the larger d20 system differentiated weapon types by changing their critical rules. Since you're not using multipliers for your criticals, you can't bring over the d20 rules, but you might take some inspiration from the "weapon effects" system used in the 2d20 systems. Here are some possibilities off the top of my head:

Axes - Bleeding wounds: target must make a death/poison save or take 1d6  (1d8 for large weapons) additional damage at the beginning of their next turn.
Maces/Hammers - Concussive force: target must make a paralysis save or be stunned/knocked prone
Cutting swords - Fast attacks: Immediately make another melee attack at the same target.
Dueling Swords -  Debilitating blows: The target makes a spells, rods and staves check or else suffers -2 to its attacks until healed.
"Anti-Armor" weapons (picks, estocs, etc.) - Sundering: The target makes a Devices save, or suffers -2 to its AC until the damage is repaired.   
Polearms - Sweeping: enemies adjacent to the target make a breath-weapons save, or also suffer damage from the critical attack.

This is great. I am redoing 5e weapons for my setting (because the setting doesn't have iron), and I might use this to help differentiate some weapons.


I'm okay with the draw bag - encubnerance and magic weapons will take care of it eventually.

FWIW, if you're redoing 5e weapons my small PDF can be useful:

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/291160/5e-Manual-of-Arms-Weapons?src=hottest_filtered
Chaos Factory Books  - Dark fantasy RPGs and more!

Methods & Madness - my  D&D 5e / Old School / Game design blog.

Eric Diaz

Awesome advice, thanks folks!

Quote from: ForgottenF on July 15, 2023, 01:38:52 PM
It's never a good idea to invite the argument about which weapons are better against different types of armor. That argument is endless and has few proven answers.  :P

I also don't care for those kind of conditional modifiers. I'd rather not have my players have to keep asking what kind of armor the enemy is wearing before they roll their attack. The attack roll is probably the most commonly made one in D&D, so it benefits the most from the players being able to internalize their modifier and then not think about it for a while.

I've always liked the way that 3.x and the larger d20 system differentiated weapon types by changing their critical rules. Since you're not using multipliers for your criticals, you can't bring over the d20 rules, but you might take some inspiration from the "weapon effects" system used in the 2d20 systems. Here are some possibilities off the top of my head:

Axes - Bleeding wounds: target must make a death/poison save or take 1d6  (1d8 for large weapons) additional damage at the beginning of their next turn.
Maces/Hammers - Concussive force: target must make a paralysis save or be stunned/knocked prone
Cutting swords - Fast attacks: Immediately make another melee attack at the same target.
Dueling Swords -  Debilitating blows: The target makes a spells, rods and staves check or else suffers -2 to its attacks until healed.
"Anti-Armor" weapons (picks, estocs, etc.) - Sundering: The target makes a Devices save, or suffers -2 to its AC until the damage is repaired.   
Polearms - Sweeping: enemies adjacent to the target make a breath-weapons save, or also suffer damage from the critical attack.


Awesome stuff! I like the "differentiated weapon types by changing their critical rules" and I even used something similar to "Fast attacks" for swords (and daggers) in Dark Fantasy Basic.

Quote from: estar on July 15, 2023, 01:28:30 PM
From here
https://www.batintheattic.com/downloads/MW%20Equipment%20Rev%202.pdf

I looked at how medieval weapons were used and the tactics associated with them. As a result I felt the most OD&Dish way of handling was to give weapons a special ability when warrented.

Axe, battle 50d/ea. 8.0/lbs.
Damage: 1-Hand, 1d8
This is a single head axe between 24 to 36 inches long. Like the throwing axe, the head is shaped longer from the blade to the butt of the axe. At the attacker's option you can use this to pin an opponent's weapon or shield. After making a successful to hit roll, the opponent needs to make a saving or the weapon or shield is pinned. The attacker can't use the axe to attack with while pinning a weapon.

Hammer, war 8d/ea. 3.5/lbs.
Damage: 1d4+1
The spread of plate armor in the last few centuries has seen the adoption of the war hammer as a weapon. This version is designed to be used by one hand. It is 18 to 24 inches long, with a hammer-shaped lump of metal affixed to one end. It gets +1 to hit when used against plate armor and creatures with natural plate like armor. It is usable in the off-hand when dual wielding.

Mace, small 9d/ea. 3.0/lbs.
Damage: 1d4+1
Used since the beginning of recorded history, maces became a popular battlefield weapon when chainmail became common a millennia ago. It is still a popular choice despite the spread of plate armor and war hammers. This weapon is between 18 to 24 inches long and has a ball of metal affixed to the end. It gets +1 to hit versus opponents wearing chainmail or gelatinous creatures like ochre jellies or black puddings. It is usable off hand when dual wielding.

Dual Wielding
One-handed weapons can be used in the off hand in lieu of a shield. Contrary to popular belief, this doesn't allow a combatant to make more attacks. It acts much like a buckler, granting +1 to the character's AC versus one opponent. In addition, the character can choose which weapon to attack with when making their attack roll.


This is great too!
Chaos Factory Books  - Dark fantasy RPGs and more!

Methods & Madness - my  D&D 5e / Old School / Game design blog.

Eric Diaz

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on July 15, 2023, 07:23:45 PM
May not fit the direction you are going, but what I did was make a distinction between slash/bash/pierce damage in heavier armors and a modest but notable set of creatures and spells.  It doesn't always come up, but when it does, having the right weapon helps.  Slash weapons tend to do slightly better base damage but get reduced the most often by those special cases. The bash/pierce distinction is about even.

Then I made maces/clubs do all bash, hammers do bash/pierce (assuming a pick on the reverse end), and small axes do straight slash.  Battle axes and pole axes do bash/slash.  Small axes are also very handy tools, and my system has strict enough encumbrance that a side weapon also serving as a tool matters. 

Originally, I was going to do bash, pierce, slash, and cut, with axes and heavy swords getting the "cut" type as an option.  Turns out, the heavy swords already had enough going for them that they didn't need that edge, and it didn't make sense to keep "cut" for a few axes.  So I compromised and just said that a battle axe coming at a skeleton's head or a guy in banded armor gets to count as bash when it matters, despite having an edge.  All of that replaces any weapon vs armor to hit adjustment.

I really like the "bash" option, or something like 3e bludgeoning/piercing for spiked maces (so maybe bludgeoning/slashing for axes, etc.).
Chaos Factory Books  - Dark fantasy RPGs and more!

Methods & Madness - my  D&D 5e / Old School / Game design blog.