Quote from: mudbanks on January 14, 2023, 10:06:48 AMLooking for a good alternative to VTM. In particular, I want something that isn't very rules-heavy, and it must be vampire-themed (so no generic systems). Any recommendations?

Here's a bit of a curve ball.

Cyberpunk 2020 and Night's Edge. Oddly enough, the cyberpunk gaming genre and monsters works really well together. You can even include Lovecraftian horrors that scare even the vampires. I ran a campaign where the vampires were powerful manipulators of everything behind the scenes trying to popularize having no cyberware (mainly because humans with high Empathy stats tasted better).

Might be worth looking into for you.

Quote from: Chris24601 on July 24, 2024, 09:10:42 PMI've read the whole damnable thing...

Damnable? Really? The PDF is free and released under CC. It's not like the author gave you false expectations and took your hard-earned cash. He gave you his work for free in perpetuity and legal carte blanche to modify it and sell those modifications.

A lot of creators are paranoid nutjobs who would prefer that copyright lasts forever because, *gasp*, somebody might write and sell fanfiction of their original characters when the copyright expires decades after the creator died. Nevermind the whole problem of abandonware that is damaging our cultural heritage. But I digress.

Quote from: Chris24601 on July 24, 2024, 09:10:42 PM...is NOT an RPG setting. It is maybe the start of an idea for a setting, but even then its so shallow that after your first couple times pretending Dexter is a vampire you're pretty much done. Its maybe a one-shot or mini-campaign idea at best.

Your complaints all boil down to the settings not being detailed enough for your tastes. Fair enough. I don't know what to tell you and I'm sorry about that.

What's done is done. The author hasn't  touched the material since and last I heard he has a kid now and won't ever do more hobby work, so I guess life just sucks. We are lucky he even released it under CC.

If you don't want to use the existing settings or make your own, then you can take any existing vampire setting and then adapt it to Feed. I've converted VtM/VtR, Nightlife, and Everlasting on my blog and it works fine.

I would love to see you review Urban Shadows, btw. I imagine that you'll absolutely despise it. Here's the 2e quickstart for your perusal: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/333500/Urban-Shadows-2nd-Ed-Quickstart Let me know what you think!

Quote from: Chris24601 on July 24, 2024, 09:10:42 PMGee... I needed a toolkit to tell me "write your own rules for non-vampires." That is SO helpful.

I guess it's frustrating that he doesn't include NPC stat blocks for werewolves, elves and androids for those who want them. Do they really need to be more detailed than one or two dice pools? This is a game where a PC's minion, or group of mooks, is represented with a single dice pool on their sheet rather than a full stat block.

I once tried hacking the system to represent werewolves. My idea was that, unlike vampire traits, werewolf traits have to exist in a balance with human traits. Too far on one end, the werewolf suffers from imbalance. I lost interest, but I still have my notes.

Honestly, trying to hack the rules to represent other magical creatures with the same degree of care would require multiple other books. It would require a fuckton of work and it would add a ton more bookkeeping to the GM's plate.

Quote from: Chris24601 on July 24, 2024, 09:10:42 PMThere's nothing inspiring or interesting worth exploring in its pages... and yes I know because I did actually look at it for a prospect to replace VtM at one point.

I disagree that it has nothing worth exploring. You haven't criticized the mechanics at all, and the mechanics are really where it shines. Not because it's particularly amazing or anything, but because it's so simple that I'm astonished that this wasn't written decades earlier.

VtM/VtR has this whole dumb problem where stealing candy bars punishes you with schizophrenia, so the writers have invented all these dumb rules like touchstones and paths of whatever you were going to do anyway in order to avoid it. Furthermore, there's no rule preventing a character from having humanity 10, blood potency 10, and all powers at 10, basically being a superhero that turns the premise into a farce. The premise is stupid on its face!

In Dark Shadows and Interview with the Vampire, which inspired the mechanic, Barnabas and Louis didn't develop schizophrenia after stealing candy bars. They felt emo because they were allergic to sunlight and ate people. How could the authors fail so utterly to represent that with their mechanics? I mean, personality mechanics are always a crapshoot in ttrpgs, but you have be really incompetent to be inspired by "sad emo vamp" but instead produce "you get schizophrenia for stealing a candy bar!"

Feed neatly fixes all that by making vampirism and humanity into a lightside/darkside mechanic. Rather than stealing a candy bar and being punished with schizophrenia, PCs alienate human traits and replace them with vampiric ones. Losing humanity is not a horrible punishment to be avoided at all costs, and gaining vampiric traits necessarily requires losing human traits. You don't need paths of whatever you were gonna do anyway, because the mechanic supports playing evil vamps who only use their humanity as a cover for their villainy. It even incorporates the functionality of obscure mechanics like "discipline derangements": as you lose human traits and gain vampiric traits, you outright become less able to function as a human being instead of a vampire.

Any nerd can write hundreds of pages of irrelevant self-masturbatory lore. The hard part is making decent rules that support the fluff. The stuff Feed comes up with is not rocket science, but painfully simple. I'm astonished that nobody came up with this before Feed did (to my knowledge).

I've gone thru multiple vampire games, as my list attests. Most of them simply don't bother with a humanity statistic (which is fine), and when they do it's dumb and clunky. VtX's humanity mechanic is dumb shit that's only kept around because of shallow nostalgia but nobody actually likes playing it. Feed is the only vampire rpg I've encountered that actually makes a humanity stat worth including as a mechanic.

The humanity mechanic is the only reason I even consider it worthwhile. If I just wanted to play vampiric superheroes and not worry about humanity struggles, then I could play GURPS, D&D, QAGS, Risus, or any number of other games. If I wanted to play vampires who struggle with their humanity, then Feed is the only game I've found that makes that anything other than dumb shit nobody actually likes using but keeps around because "muh nostalgia!".

That and the superpowers. VtX makes you jump through dumb hoops to get superpowers. You have to buy filler powers before you can buy the powers you want, and the powers available are arbitrary. You can buy the power to sink into soil of all things, buy you can't buy levitation/flight a la The Lost Boys or walking through walls like Carmilla or scaling sheer surfaces like Dracula. Not without jumping through dumb arbitrary hoops, anyway.

I never switched to Feed because I was invested in its sample settings. I switched to it because the humanity rules aren't fucking stupid. If I need settings, then I already have a ton of other vampire media that I can adapt to it, if I don't make my own.

Like, dude, I'm just gonna say it straight: if you're reading Feed for its settings, then you're reading it wrong. You don't play it for its sample settings, you play it because its humanity and superpower mechanic doesn't suck ass. If you need a detailed setting, then you're supposed to convert an existing setting like VtX or Nightlife.

Does that help at all? I'm sorry this has gone on so long, I got sucked into rant mode. I sympathize with your problems and I wish the author had done more, but real life sucks that way.

If you want to pull interest from VtM you need more than a single type written page (c. 1000 words) of outline.

I didn't bring up Feed's mechanics because they're largely irrelevant given the amount of "make stuff up" the GM needs to do just to create a campaign.

Yes, most GMs just want a game they can pull out of a box and use, not one where they have to toolkit practically every aspect.

Games like VtM or any of Palladium's horror-themed games or Ravenloft give players a specific set of already decided options to build their PCs and the GM a world with enough themes and things going on already decided that they can just focus on how the PCs will fit into that.

Do you know what really cemented VtM in its zeitgeist? Chicago by Night. A detailed location with scores of NPCs a Storyteller could drop into their games. Organizations and Conspiracies the Storyteller didn't have to invent from whole cloth. It also had hints of other supernaturals in Chinatown and the demon Gulfora.

Any nerd can write prose, it's true, but that doesn't mean the prose is unnecessary in selling a setting to potential GMs/players. A good story hooks better than anything mechanics related ever will (witness all things Palladium... the mechanics aren't good, but Kevin writes hella compelling settings that people love).

Basically "here's a toolkit to build any type of vampire your GM can imagine" is never going to be as compelling as "play as a scion of the first murderer, Caine."

If you want something to steal VtM's thunder, the only thing that could do it is something with a similarly compelling as the hook (mechanics have never been the appeal of any WW games).

Relatedly, I know you make a huge deal out of addiction/humanity type mechanics, but the fact that you could pretty much ignore them was actually a huge part of VtM's success. 'Vampions' is a very real thing that a LOT of people played using VtM and I think a big stumbling block for many potential competitors was trying to push an addiction/temptation type mechanic as their hook when a lot of people just wanted "superheroes with fangs."

Because let's face it... for Angel, Spike (once he got chipped/ensouled), Det. Knight, all the Vampire Diaries, Blade, etc. the whole blood addiction was just fluff 99% of the time. Outside of specific plot lines the protagonist was never going to actually surrender to the urges... which mechanically in an RPG would just be a player affectation no different than someone playing a rogue saying "my rogue examines the security of the treasury and ponders for a moment how easy it would be to rob, but shakes off the temptation."

And that's the type of vampire most players are looking to play, not ones whose moral choices get overridden by mechanical checks/tests.

VtM made that trivially easy to do... buy up enough of the virtues to avoid frenzies and avoid humanity loss, backstopped by the degeneration for humanity flooring at 3-4 where you'd no longer even need to check unless you were literally desecrating corpse after murdering them.

Any potential competitor would need similar options or else it's only competing with the WW dev's vision of VtM, not with VtM as it is widely played by many of its fans.

Quote from: Chris24601 on July 25, 2024, 10:36:30 AMDo you know what really cemented VtM in its zeitgeist? Chicago by Night. A detailed location with scores of NPCs a Storyteller could drop into their games. Organizations and Conspiracies the Storyteller didn't have to invent from whole cloth. It also had hints of other supernaturals in Chinatown and the demon Gulfora.

Oh, so you want a city book? Full of pre-written NPCs, organizations and conspiracies? I could totally write something like that. Probably not very well, but I could certainly try. Give me a few years, I'm currently tied up.

Quote from: Chris24601 on July 25, 2024, 10:36:30 AMRelatedly, I know you make a huge deal out of addiction/humanity type mechanics, but the fact that you could pretty much ignore them was actually a huge part of VtM's success.

That's stupid. Why should I even play a ttrpg when I'm just gonna ignore the mechanics anyway? Why not play a video game like V Rising where the mechanics are actually important?

Quote from: Chris24601 on July 25, 2024, 10:36:30 AMBecause let's face it... for Angel, Spike (once he got chipped/ensouled), Det. Knight, all the Vampire Diaries, Blade, etc. the whole blood addiction was just fluff 99% of the time. Outside of specific plot lines the protagonist was never going to actually surrender to the urges... which mechanically in an RPG would just be a player affectation no different than someone playing a rogue saying "my rogue examines the security of the treasury and ponders for a moment how easy it would be to rob, but shakes off the temptation."

And that's the type of vampire most players are looking to play, not ones whose moral choices get overridden by mechanical checks/tests.

There's no shortage of games on my list that do just that.

Here's a new addition to the list: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/217296/All-of-Their-Strengths
It's literally about playing Blade. Does it strike your fancy?

Quote from: Chris24601 on July 25, 2024, 10:36:30 AMIf you want something to steal VtM's thunder, the only thing that could do it is something with a similarly compelling as the hook (mechanics have never been the appeal of any WW games).

I never wanted to steal VtM's thunder. They're plenty good at losing it all by themselves. Besides, I despise the collectors and want nothing to do with them.

I want a game about playing vampires without all the dumb bullshit in VtM, like it's trite self-aggrandizing lore or garbage rules that nobody uses anyway. I want a game that doesn't waste your time with lore bloat and gives you customizable settings. I want a game with rules that you actually use rather than ignore, that are actually fun to play.

Feed is a fixer-upper, sure, but do you see any better options currently on the market?

Quote from: Chris24601 on July 25, 2024, 10:36:30 AMAny potential competitor would need similar options or else it's only competing with the WW dev's vision of VtM, not with VtM as it is widely played by many of its fans.

There's already several games specifically about playing dark superheroes without any dumb bullshit like humanity mechanics. I don't see them blowing up in popularity.

At this point, I don't think anyone is ever gonna make a game that will genuinely compete with VtM and steal its thunders. The fandom now is mostly toxic cultists who won't touch anything else anyway, and the conformists who don't actually have any investment are fine playing anything and have moved on to D&D or Pathfinder because it's more popular. VtM is just gonna wither away because the vibe is outdated and Paradox is making crappy games. If anything takes it place, then it's gonna do so only by virtue of lack of competition and the network effect. Curseborn will probably take over that market niche because Onyx has some remaining fan goodwill to power the network effect and most players are conformists who will play whatever's available. I'm never gonna play it because the rules are the worst iteration of the ST system made thus far.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 25, 2024, 12:12:48 PMOh, so you want a city book? Full of pre-written NPCs, organizations and conspiracies? I could totally write something like that. Probably not very well, but I could certainly try. Give me a few years, I'm currently tied up.

No, you misunderstand me. I don't want or need anything. For anything like that I have my own created world to use. If I need a system, I'll either use one I already wrote or I'd make a new one.

I'm talking about what I meant by the sort of setting that could actually pull in an audience... not 1000 words about playing a serial killer, but an actual setting that a GM can just take out an use with minimal need to create much of anything for themselves.

The topic is good alternatives to VtM and I'm just trying to explain why none of them actually are because they lack certain key elements that actually draw in players (and more importantly GMs)... and they're all the stuff you despise.

Now, you're free to like what you like, I'm just trying to explain that what you like is such an outlier you're never going to find much interest in it outside of yourself.

QuoteFeed is a fixer-upper, sure, but do you see any better options currently on the market?

None that you would like... because you actually want addiction/temptation/degeneration mechanics as a core part of the experience and call anything that doesn't deliver that or which as any level of detail for a setting 'dumb bullshit.'

I learned a long time ago that if you want a game you'll have zero issues with you have to write it yourself. Anything else is will be some degree of compromise with the author's vision and any concessions they made to make it something more appealing to anyone other than themselves.

I also stand my previous statement that "Play as a Vampire (at least of the type you want to play)" is just antithetical to the current zeitgeist of interest in the same way public interest in mass media leans towards science fiction and antiheroes in good times and towards fantasy and idealism in bad times... thus you're unlikely to find any market for a "play a vampire" game outside of the VtM crowd who are playing mostly for the nostalgia of their youth.

Closest I could get you is hunters that also include dhampirs among their number these days (and frankly, I've never understood at all the desire to play as a fucking parasite sliding into degeneracy while whining about how unfair the world is... just go take a sunbath and get it over with already. There's a reason I've only every played VtM as a Dhampir [who don't need or crave blood in VtM] and when I've run it I've made every last vampire NPC a monster you should be trying to figure out a way to end).

Quote from: Chris24601 on July 25, 2024, 01:52:01 PMNo, you misunderstand me. I don't want or need anything. For anything like that I have my own created world to use. If I need a system, I'll either use one I already wrote or I'd make a new one.

Hey, something to add here that I wrote before you replied. I chatted about this with someone else, and he gave me an insightful comment. Feed is essentially written for VtM veterans who are already experienced with running games, but have become frustrated with the limitations of the VtM rules and setting. So the author expects you to have that context already when you're using Feed, rather than providing you with a newbie-friendly context.

I totally get the issues you have. Another game with a similar mechanical logic is the game City of Mists. It uses a mythos/logos duality that works similarly to Feed's human/vampiric duality. I've decided to get in touch with the community for that game and ask them for assistance in providing the context you asked for. Feed doesn't have a community, but I want it to have one and I think this would help to do that. Wish me luck!

Quote from: Chris24601 on July 25, 2024, 01:52:01 PMThe topic is good alternatives to VtM and I'm just trying to explain why none of them actually are because they lack certain key elements that actually draw in players (and more importantly GMs)... and they're all the stuff you despise.

I don't particularly despise any of the games on my list. Most don't have communities and those that do haven't cyberbullied me or anything. I don't have any antipathy towards them.

Like, I think Elegy is way too derivative and uninspired, especially compared to something like Everlasting, but I don't despise it.

Quote from: Chris24601 on July 25, 2024, 01:52:01 PMNone that you would like... because you actually want addiction/temptation/degeneration mechanics as a core part of the experience and call anything that doesn't deliver that or which as any level of detail for a setting 'dumb bullshit.'

Correction: I would like a degeneration mechanic that doesn't suck, or not at all.

I never said I think setting detail is dumb bullshit. I like having a variety of settings to choose from, helpful guidelines for making my own, and a community that is receptive to homebrew. VtM is the exact opposite, which is why I despise it.

Quote from: Chris24601 on July 25, 2024, 01:52:01 PMI also stand my previous statement that "Play as a Vampire (at least of the type you want to play)" is just antithetical to the current zeitgeist of interest in the same way public interest in mass media leans towards science fiction and antiheroes in good times and towards fantasy and idealism in bad times... thus you're unlikely to find any market for a "play a vampire" game outside of the VtM crowd who are playing mostly for the nostalgia of their youth.

I don't think the market is so limited to old guys playing VtM for nostalgia. There's still communities for games like Urban Shadows and Chronicles of Darkness. Onyx Path is even making Curseborn, which will include vampiric character options. And maybe I'll have luck with the City of Mist community?

Quote from: Chris24601 on July 25, 2024, 01:52:01 PMClosest I could get you is hunters that also include dhampirs among their number these days (and frankly, I've never understood at all the desire to play as a fucking parasite sliding into degeneracy while whining about how unfair the world is... just go take a sunbath and get it over with already. There's a reason I've only every played VtM as a Dhampir [who don't need or crave blood in VtM] and when I've run it I've made every last vampire NPC a monster you should be trying to figure out a way to end).

As I said, I'm totally fine with playing dark superheroes or outright supervillains. Do you know of many games that explicitly support that option?

I don't know of any; largely because that's not a genre I actually enjoy. I have less than zero interest in playing villains or supervillains (nor, based on various reported game metrics, do about 90% of most players... the metrics are more available for video games, but it aligns very strongly with results in broader entertainment about audience preferences for story structure... basically "bad guy wins" or playing as the bad guy is super niche within an already niche hobby... even in games like SWTOR where the Imperial side is popular, it's been reported that 90% of Imp players exclusively make lightside choices, meaning most like to play heroes trying to make a difference in a crapsack world rather than as villains).

For a bit of further insight, I came into WoD by way of Mage the Ascension (1e then 2e... wasn't a fan of the dying magic thing in Revised) and other than crossover splats I never got into the VtM material until they released V20 (I think I'd picked up the Revised Core to make viable vamp NPCs and Time of Thin Blood for the Technocracy story) and even then I wouldn't actually play in the campaign if I had to play a vampire... so I played a dhampir who hunted vampires (and only excluded the other PCs because they kept their humanity high and fed from blood bags).

My preference is much more for what I term "the dark fantastic." The world is a dark place, but the protagonists (or players in this case) seek to be lights in that darkness and, through effort, can make a difference; basically the "Earn Your Happy Ending" trope is in full effect.

Degeneration and Dissolution ending in tragedy is just antithetical to my interests. I've seen enough of both in real life that playing at it frankly feels macabre to me.

I'm with you, Chris, on Feed. I've already been through this back and forth with Boxcrayontales about this and I have no interest in doing it again. I checked out Feed again at their recommendation and found it was still nothing I was interested in, especially in comparison to what I wanted from old White Wolf. But that conversation was years ago and it can stay in the past.

Best of luck on your search Boxcrayontales!

It didn't work out. Leeching off the community for other games is bad etiquette or something.

Fucking bullshit

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 26, 2024, 08:11:58 PMIt didn't work out. Leeching off the community for other games is bad etiquette or something.

Fucking bullshit

What did not work out?
What is FB?

Quote from: Aglondir on July 27, 2024, 09:02:33 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 26, 2024, 08:11:58 PMIt didn't work out. Leeching off the community for other games is bad etiquette or something.

Fucking bullshit

What did not work out?
What is FB?

I'm guessing trying to reach out and get ideas from the City of Mist community.

Unfortunately, it seems like nearly everyone in the Urban Fantasy RPG fandom, whether WoD or not, has decided that being a toxic snowflake to everyone else is how you prove your loyalty to their particular in-group.

If you have players who want to play monsters, but still want to kinda be the good guys, then Nightbane is worth a read. I ran it decades ago for a WoD group who hated Palladium's system so we used Silver Age Sentinels system instead. Personally, the Palladium system works fine in actual play and the setting really shines at the table.

I can see WoD having a second life, but only with new ownership in the future. There's enough gems in the muck to draw in a new audience IF done properly which won't happen until some new crew is in charge.

I am surprised there isn't a current popular "Play the Monster" RPG, especially with the popularity of Urban Fantasy literature and media.

Quote from: Spinachcat on July 29, 2024, 04:14:36 AMIf you have players who want to play monsters, but still want to kinda be the good guys, then Nightbane is worth a read. I ran it decades ago for a WoD group who hated Palladium's system so we used Silver Age Sentinels system instead. Personally, the Palladium system works fine in actual play and the setting really shines at the table.

I can see WoD having a second life, but only with new ownership in the future. There's enough gems in the muck to draw in a new audience IF done properly which won't happen until some new crew is in charge.

I am surprised there isn't a current popular "Play the Monster" RPG, especially with the popularity of Urban Fantasy literature and media.

I contend the zeitgeist isn't right for a "play the monster" setting... specifically, the monsters of the age are "the other side" and no one really wants to see that other side portrayed as just misunderstood.

Unless you're doing something far enough from the modern that current year politics can't be portrayed (and the woke designers will try and push their ideologies in anyway) you're either alienating a large chunk of your audience or ensuring your release gets ratioed or outright canceled so no one can see it.

V5 is a prime example of what I'm talking about. The vampires have now skewed into complete DEI hire territory and the new "Second Inquisition" who hunts them now is a union of the Left's psychotic projections of the Catholic Church and the United States under President Trump.

Basically, Vampire 5th wants you to play a LGBTQWTF expy being hunted by Priests and the minions of the Bad Orange Man.

Also, as I said before, the Vampire metaphor of being a parasite on humanity hits different when everyone you know is already being bled dry and struggling just to make ends meet vs. when lots of people were bloated on the excesses of the early 90's, the existential threat of nuclear annihilation with the USSR had been lifted and the idea of a terrorist strike at home was unthinkable.

They lost the ability to actually poke fun at themselves or engage in satire or black comedy so all of it gets presented as "serious business" and the RPG equivalent of a "struggle session."

By contrast, something like Nightbane actually fits the zeitgeist for a lot of people. Life is sucking, and suddenly you're awakened to the existence of dark powers who secretly rule the world and want to suck it dry, but you've become a misunderstood monster which gives you and your allies the power to try and fight it.

I think a lot of players these days, at least those not so lost in "the message" that they still care about having a good time playing a game, would find that setup appealing.

But, unless you're going timeless (the advantage of fantasy and far future scifi) your setting and system will always have to deal with the spirit of the age one way or the other.

Yeah, I'm surprised that there isn't more urban fantasy ttrpgs given the popularity of urban fantasy in prose and other passive media. Like, I not really familiar with Nightbane, but the premise sounds interesting to me, as does the sister game Beyond the Supernatural. I'm not really in the mood for misunderstood unfairly persecuted monsters. I like the fantasy in modern times aspect.

In an urban fantasy story I'm working on, I take a much more nuanced approached to the whole monsters living in secret among society thing. One of my secret societies is a group of monster hunters who have made a truce with the monsters in exchange for becoming the lawmen and cleaners in the secret world. While they do see monsters as monsters, they recognize that it's better to be corrupt cops than dead and that some monsters are reluctant or pragmatic enough to work with them. They can't save everyone, but this way they can save more people and at less risk to themselves.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 29, 2024, 11:45:47 AMYeah, I'm surprised that there isn't more urban fantasy ttrpgs given the popularity of urban fantasy in prose and other passive media.

I think if you look at the trends in UF literature you might see why.

Every year urban fantasy seems to merge more and more with paranormal romance, to the point I'm now seeing authors in the genre complain about it. There are authors who think they are the same thing. More than once I've been burned by it.

So, if a written genre is tending romance it's skewing to an audience than isn't going to be very RPG oriented, especially more traditional style RPGs.  I think what we do get is hangover from WB series and earlier authors starting with Emma Bull and Charles De Lint and ending with Jim Butcher and Simon Green.