Any good alternatives to Vampire the Masquerade?

SmallMountaineer · June 26, 2024, 11:23:07 AM

Quote from: Orphan81 on June 26, 2024, 10:58:03 AM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on June 26, 2024, 10:21:48 AMwith WoD that killed it like its bloated lore that intimidated new players.

That's not at all what killed WoD. Not one damn single bit.

Well, to be absolutely fair, that sort of thing is off-putting to a lot of newcomers seeking a smooth entry-point into a product line.

BoxCrayonTales · June 26, 2024, 01:18:43 PM

Quote from: SmallMountaineer on June 26, 2024, 11:23:07 AM
Quote from: Orphan81 on June 26, 2024, 10:58:03 AM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on June 26, 2024, 10:21:48 AMwith WoD that killed it like its bloated lore that intimidated new players.

That's not at all what killed WoD. Not one damn single bit.

Well, to be absolutely fair, that sort of thing is off-putting to a lot of newcomers seeking a smooth entry-point into a product line.

The entire reason White Wolf rebooted it in 2004 was because it was not selling due to being offputting to newcomers. Additionally, the single monolithic IP cultivated a toxic fandom of lore worshipers and edition warriors who contributed to scaring away newcomers. I had to deal with a lot of asshats in the 2000s who wouldn't stop bullying me for liking nWoD. They don't actually play the games, they just masturbate to the lore. It's a fucking cult. Fuck those jerks and fuck their shithole IP.

The only reason the IP still exists commercially in any form right now is solely because of Bloodlines attracting a cult following. CCP was happy to just let the IP die after their MMO plans fell through before Paradox decided to buy it so they could make ties-ins to Bloodlines. Which aren't doing great.

It's disappointing to me that the output of new games right now is heartbreakers, but maybe someday someone will come along with something more creative.

SmallMountaineer · June 26, 2024, 01:25:38 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on June 26, 2024, 01:18:43 PM
Quote from: SmallMountaineer on June 26, 2024, 11:23:07 AM
Quote from: Orphan81 on June 26, 2024, 10:58:03 AM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on June 26, 2024, 10:21:48 AMwith WoD that killed it like its bloated lore that intimidated new players.

That's not at all what killed WoD. Not one damn single bit.

Well, to be absolutely fair, that sort of thing is off-putting to a lot of newcomers seeking a smooth entry-point into a product line.

The entire reason White Wolf rebooted it in 2004 was because it was not selling due to being offputting to newcomers. Additionally, the single monolithic IP cultivated a toxic fandom of lore worshipers and edition warriors who contributed to scaring away newcomers. I had to deal with a lot of asshats in the 2000s who wouldn't stop bullying me for liking nWoD. They don't actually play the games, they just masturbate to the lore. It's a fucking cult. Fuck those jerks and fuck their shithole IP.

The only reason the IP still exists commercially in any form right now is solely because of Bloodlines attracting a cult following. CCP was happy to just let the IP die after their MMO plans fell through before Paradox decided to buy it so they could make ties-ins to Bloodlines. Which aren't doing great.

It's disappointing to me that the output of new games right now is heartbreakers, but maybe someday someone will come along with something more creative.

Paradox is about as consumer-friendly as WOTC. I'm surprised they haven't devised a way to make you pay five cents to look at their products on store pages/shelves.

BoxCrayonTales · June 26, 2024, 01:43:04 PM

Quote from: SmallMountaineer on June 26, 2024, 01:25:38 PMParadox is about as consumer-friendly as WOTC. I'm surprised they haven't devised a way to make you pay five cents to look at their products on store pages/shelves.

Yeah, their attempts to monetize the IP have failed. Quite frankly, I don't think it would've worked for anyone. The IP is firmly stuck in its own zeitgeist of crazy shit that just doesn't fly now.

Like, why are the werewolves all feminazi ecoterrorists who fuck wild animals? Why are "crazy" vamps a political bloc? Why are the bad wizards the ones who use scifi tech?

The Gaming Den already went over the many problems in their Anatomy of Failed Design series. It's just not a well constructed IP. Just one example they gave: the vampires are depicted as being stuck in a centuries old feudal dynamic with limited territories based on the human population ratio. However, this immediately breaks down because the population explosion and city expansion of the past two centuries should've opened up a ton of territory, but the lore doesn't account for this at all. Ancient vamps from Europe magically claim all territory in the United States, when logistically the continent should be dominated by thinbloods. Speaking of, the generation mechanic is also another silly rule that shouldn't logistically work the way writers think.

Aside from nostalgia (which I don't have as a zillennial who came into the hobby after WoD was rebooted for the first time, except for playing Bloodlines but that's all Troika's work), there's no reason to invest in this IP. It's ridiculous and not in a good way, the fandom is toxic af... it's generic enough that you could make your own IP and tap into the same urban fantasy tropes.

Chris24601 · June 26, 2024, 04:58:32 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on June 26, 2024, 01:18:43 PM
Quote from: SmallMountaineer on June 26, 2024, 11:23:07 AM
Quote from: Orphan81 on June 26, 2024, 10:58:03 AM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on June 26, 2024, 10:21:48 AMwith WoD that killed it like its bloated lore that intimidated new players.

That's not at all what killed WoD. Not one damn single bit.

Well, to be absolutely fair, that sort of thing is off-putting to a lot of newcomers seeking a smooth entry-point into a product line.

The entire reason White Wolf rebooted it in 2004 was because it was not selling due to being offputting to newcomers. Additionally, the single monolithic IP cultivated a toxic fandom of lore worshipers and edition warriors who contributed to scaring away newcomers. I had to deal with a lot of asshats in the 2000s who wouldn't stop bullying me for liking nWoD. They don't actually play the games, they just masturbate to the lore. It's a fucking cult. Fuck those jerks and fuck their shithole IP.

The only reason the IP still exists commercially in any form right now is solely because of Bloodlines attracting a cult following. CCP was happy to just let the IP die after their MMO plans fell through before Paradox decided to buy it so they could make ties-ins to Bloodlines. Which aren't doing great.

It's disappointing to me that the output of new games right now is heartbreakers, but maybe someday someone will come along with something more creative.

I would argue it wasn't the basic lore that wasn't selling; so much as the obsession by WW with its metaplot events which were basically "sit and watch as the GM reads off our block text about our GMPCs and how awesome they are... oh, and if you don't suicide your Ravnos immediately you're playing wrong because you aren't following our required metaplot."

Players want to be heroes of their own stories, not captives for someone's wankfest about their Mary Sue.

That said, I already wrote my own replacement mechanical system ("White Book" Mage as I call it) and my own concept for an alternate universe ("Hunters of the Damned") so I have a system/setting already.

Orphan81 · June 26, 2024, 05:11:49 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on June 26, 2024, 01:43:04 PM
Quote from: SmallMountaineer on June 26, 2024, 01:25:38 PMParadox is about as consumer-friendly as WOTC. I'm surprised they haven't devised a way to make you pay five cents to look at their products on store pages/shelves.
Yeah, their attempts to monetize the IP have failed. Quite frankly, I don't think it would've worked for anyone. The IP is firmly stuck in its own zeitgeist of crazy shit that just doesn't fly now.

Like, why are the werewolves all feminazi ecoterrorists who fuck wild animals? Why are "crazy" vamps a political bloc? Why are the bad wizards the ones who use scifi tech?

The Gaming Den already went over the many problems in their Anatomy of Failed Design series. It's just not a well constructed IP. Just one example they gave: the vampires are depicted as being stuck in a centuries old feudal dynamic with limited territories based on the human population ratio. However, this immediately breaks down because the population explosion and city expansion of the past two centuries should've opened up a ton of territory, but the lore doesn't account for this at all. Ancient vamps from Europe magically claim all territory in the United States, when logistically the continent should be dominated by thinbloods. Speaking of, the generation mechanic is also another silly rule that shouldn't logistically work the way writers think.

Aside from nostalgia (which I don't have as a zillennial who came into the hobby after WoD was rebooted for the first time, except for playing Bloodlines but that's all Troika's work), there's no reason to invest in this IP. It's ridiculous and not in a good way, the fandom is toxic af... it's generic enough that you could make your own IP and tap into the same urban fantasy tropes.

This is literally all bullshit considering the sheer phenomenal success of everyone of the 20th anniversary editions. All of which were also considered great entry points for new players, and sell better than the 5th edition stuff does. Which is why Paradox is trying to kill it.

I get you have a personal axe to grind with The World of Darkness and Onyx Path but nothing you've said is true or backed up by facts. Provide the receipts if they are.

I liked Chronicles of Darkness too, and still do... but it never sold as well as Classic World of Darkness, and the 20th edition return to Classics sold like gangbusters.

CCP held all the intellectual property rights to The World of Darkness and Chronicles... Onyx Path formed to take on the burden of printing and selling tabletop rpgs set in those worlds because CCP didn't want to... they just wanted to make a WoD MMO... when that fell through, they sold the IP rights to Paradox..

Paradox wanted nothing to do with Onyx Path, which is why they created a "5th edition" in the first place.... Onxy Path didn't even consider the 20th annivesary editions to be "4th editions" they literally announced 4th edition Vampire the Masquerade at Gencon months before CCP sold them to Paradox and Paradox canned it all.

Paradox is the reason for the death of WoD.

BoxCrayonTales · June 27, 2024, 10:58:17 AM

Quote from: Chris24601 on June 26, 2024, 04:58:32 PMI would argue it wasn't the basic lore that wasn't selling; so much as the obsession by WW with its metaplot events which were basically "sit and watch as the GM reads off our block text about our GMPCs and how awesome they are... oh, and if you don't suicide your Ravnos immediately you're playing wrong because you aren't following our required metaplot."

Players want to be heroes of their own stories, not captives for someone's wankfest about their Mary Sue.

The way I heard it, the edition treadmill played a huge role in the decision to reboot. I can't find the blog post now, but one of the people at the company back then said the reasons why 3e was made with metaplot changes was because the 2e books weren't selling anymore. Groups weren't buying the new supplements but were satisfied with what little they already had. (and this was years before 3e D&D was released and took back the market dominance.) So WW decided to shake things up, and when that didn't work like they hoped, then they decided to reboot with a clean slate.

They weren't making arbitrary stupid decisions because Justin Achilli demanded it. Back in the 90s they were an actual company with offices and a marketing department. They were doing market research to inform their decisions. Their sales seem to have peaked around the mid 90s or so and never recovered.

Quote from: Orphan81 on June 26, 2024, 05:11:49 PMI liked Chronicles of Darkness too, and still do... but it never sold as well as Classic World of Darkness, and the 20th edition return to Classics sold like gangbusters.

Quote from: Orphan81 on June 26, 2024, 05:11:49 PMnothing you've said is true or backed up by facts. Provide the receipts if they are.

Here's a quote from rpg.net:

QuoteWhite Wolf never releases specific sales figures, but they do make claims in official press releases. Back in August 2004 when NWoD hit the shelves, they claimed they had sold 5.5 million books since 1991 and had a market share of 26%. That claim wasn't updated until May 2008, when they claimed they had sold 7 million books since 1991 and didn't mention their market share at all. Combined with a number of other factors both obvious and deducible, that is not good news, and that's taking them at their word. Also before the recession hit.

But more directly, I talk to a number of distributors. They all tell me WW sales are down relative to the market. They were hit hard when D&D 3rd ed launched, and they've been struggling ever since.

From 1991 to 2004 is 13 years, so that's 5.5 million over 13 years or 400k per year. From 2004 to 2008 is 4 years, so that's 1.5 million over 4 years, or 375k per year. That's with the hit did due to D&D 3e, which launched in 2000, because remember that a key factor in White Wolf's success was that TSR was making poor business decisions in the 90s.

So while poster frames the numbers as being objectively bad and nWoD as a failure, when you look at the numbers in context, they're actually pretty good. nWoD was a resounding success considering that it had to compete with D&D, couldn't rely on the old guard to buy books (which was already a problem for cWoD), and had to deal with various other economic factors like competition from video games. I don't know where people get the idea that it was a failure when the numbers we have don't actually support that. It was as good as it could be considering the circumstances outside its control.

Do you have hard numbers to support your statement that 4e is resounding success and 5e is a resounding failure? Because I've heard plenty of people say the opposite, that V5 is the most played edition, using numbers like discord memberships (e.g. the official V5 discord had 22k members according to them, which sounds paltry imo). Considering all the economic changes since 2008, and checking Google Trends, I suspect that the IP's popularity since has been a pale shadow of its 90s heyday.

Quote from: Orphan81 on June 26, 2024, 05:11:49 PMParadox is the reason for the death of WoD.

Good riddance then. It's about time it fucking died and released its market dominance. Let's see how the new blood does with the new opportunities for making new games. I haven't been impressed with the heartbreakers so far, but maybe they'll surprise me?

PencilBoy99 · June 27, 2024, 11:11:40 AM

My impression is that V5 is pretty popular. It's mechanically simpler / more consistent, more focused, and has less lore (maybe, it's hard to figure out).

I did find the thread about VtM as a failed design - which fits with my belief that you can have very popular, fun games even if the system and setting is broken or nonsense. Good stuff can emerge from RPGs in a way that it can't from other things and I'm not sure why.

The thread did suggest a neat idea to run a VtM type game - which is to abandon the feudal structure and instead focus on "mafia crime family" + coterie. So you'd have vampires, with more core powers than they have in VtM, and then maybe some additional specific bloodline/clan power. In most cities you'd have different groups that are essentially crime families competing with each other, w/out any "prince", camarilla (at least locally), or clan based organization (except maybe loosely).

BoxCrayonTales · June 27, 2024, 01:31:25 PM

Quote from: PencilBoy99 on June 27, 2024, 11:11:40 AMMy impression is that V5 is pretty popular.

Online echo chambers can give very distorted views of popularity, so take that with a grain of salt.

Quote from: PencilBoy99 on June 27, 2024, 11:11:40 AMIt's mechanically simpler / more consistent,

Maybe compared to the mess that was V20, but it's more complicated than CoD 1e is. Rather than a single difficulty slider like CoD 1e has with modifying dice, it has modifiers for both number of dice and number of target successes. The way merits and flaws work is also more complicated: flaws are rated like merits are and you take them at character creation to reduce the cost of merits, whereas in CoD 1e flaws were unrated and provided free XP whenever they hindered the character during an adventure. At least it doesn't have laundry lists of conditions like CoD 2e did.

Quote from: PencilBoy99 on June 27, 2024, 11:11:40 AMand has less lore (maybe, it's hard to figure out).

Pause for laughter.

It still has the bloated mess of lore, it's just even more messed up now by retcons and not properly accounted for in any one place. For example, the current metaplot deals with the Second Inquisition (the FBI or whoever is now hunting vamps in mass) and the Beckoning (all the elders and the sabbats fuck off to the middle east and vanished). Fans of the lore hate it, naturally, and negatively compare it with VtR.

Quote from: PencilBoy99 on June 27, 2024, 11:11:40 AMI did find the thread about VtM as a failed design - which fits with my belief that you can have very popular, fun games even if the system and setting is broken or nonsense. Good stuff can emerge from RPGs in a way that it can't from other things and I'm not sure why.

Exactly. Even if it's garbage, you might get lucky and strike gold anyway.

Part of it may be that most groups didn't even read the rules as written and just relied on fiat. I got numerous anecdotes in another thread corroborating that.

I've noticed something similar in video games. The story in video games is as irrelevant as story in a porno unless it's a genre like RPG or visual novel. So there's tons of profitable games with shit tier stories, like Starcraft and Warcraft.

Quote from: PencilBoy99 on June 27, 2024, 11:11:40 AMThe thread did suggest a neat idea to run a VtM type game - which is to abandon the feudal structure and instead focus on "mafia crime family" + coterie. So you'd have vampires, with more core powers than they have in VtM, and then maybe some additional specific bloodline/clan power. In most cities you'd have different groups that are essentially crime families competing with each other, w/out any "prince", camarilla (at least locally), or clan based organization (except maybe loosely).

Sounds pretty logical, yeah.

They also suggested adopting branching bloodlines a la VtR but different. Every vampire starts out as part of their maker's bloodline (wherever that came from), but they can make their own or join another. So there's no silly arbitrary distinction between clans and bloodlines and shit, besides in-character mythology that invents stories about the "great clans" or whatever.

I had similar ideas before reading their thread. Some people become vampires without being turned by another vampire, these founders found their own bloodlines. From there, vampires who were turned by another vampire can found their own bloodlines or join a bloodline founded by someone else. While the bloodline determines a vampire's powers and weaknesses, it doesn't determine their beliefs and personality, so there are numerous non-familial covens that vampires join based on their beliefs and desires: crime syndicates, science journals, wizard schools, etc. The exact structure will vary from region to region. They also rub shoulders with werewolves and other magical creatures in a single underground society, not arbitrarily segregated. Most covens accept members of any magical race, unless they're something really dangerous, toxic or subject to persistent rumors and hearsay.

HappyDaze · June 27, 2024, 02:37:37 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on June 27, 2024, 01:31:25 PMOnline echo chambers can give very distorted views of popularity, so take that with a grain of salt.

I'm familiar with one that really pushes OSR as being far more popular than it is.

yosemitemike · June 27, 2024, 02:51:43 PM

Quote from: SmallMountaineer on June 26, 2024, 11:23:07 AMWell, to be absolutely fair, that sort of thing is off-putting to a lot of newcomers seeking a smooth entry-point into a product line.

It was off-putting to me and I ran WoD for most of the 90s.

bromides · June 27, 2024, 03:38:32 PM

Just chiming in to restate Osprey's "Sigil & Shadow" as a good alternative using the d100 Lite system, even if it's already been mentioned a couple times before.

Yes, it is a toolkit for Urban Fantasy, but it is good at "World of Darkness" such that you can use it for Vampire game, werewolf game, Succubus game, Mage game, Promethean/Frankenstein monster game & more with just this one toolkit. There's a section that has template structures for "Bloodsucker", "Lycanthrope", and other common supernatural themed monsters.

It's not limited to playing monsters, so you can do the "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" thing, Vampire Hunters, etc.

There's enough cosmology for it all to exist, but it's not overwhelming like WoD. The world building covers just the basics of how the supernatural universe operates, not some giant political structure of Vampires or Werewolf clans or whatever.

Simple, solid system (d100 Lite/BRP foundation). No grandiose metaplot... only the basic sketch of cosmology. While it's a tool kit, it's Urban Fantasy tool kit (like... a kit for all of the WoD in one book), and it shows you how to handle Vampires. There's a lot to like about it & it doesn't have the baggage of the modern Vampire titles.

Re: Obligatory "Safety Tool" nonsense. There are 2 pages for the Safety boilerplate blah blah, in the back with the GM's stuff. It's the typical safety tool crap that is "required" for games that touch on personal horror (lines & veils, red light/greenlight, etc), minus the Diversity/gender confusion lectures.

Lastly... for those who use Amazon's evil empire of products, Osprey also has a Kindle version & not just the PDF. This is a true Kindle format, so you can re-size and re-flow the font like any other Kindle book, making it infinitely better on a smaller form factor (mobile phone) or e-ink device. Unless you're reading digital books on large form factor devices like iPad, I would recommend the Kindle version, which is also generally less expensive than the PDF on DTRPG.

(ALL of Osprey's RPG titles seem to have a true Kindle version, including "Jackals", "Paleomythic", and other very good/very interesting titles.)

BoxCrayonTales · June 27, 2024, 03:56:08 PM

Not mention, VtR is actually a better for the video game format, ironically.

You know the two plots proposed for Bloodlines 2? The one where you start as a thinblood who later joins a clan, and the one where you're an elder who awakens depowered in the present? Those don't work in VtM lore without adding additional stipulations (e.g. Phyre had her powers bound by magic tattoos), whereas in VtR2e they're built into the premise. Meanwhile, the VtM clans were made up as they went, so the power distribution is arbitrary and unbalanced.

The VtR equivalent is a revenant (a vampire who spontaneously rose for whatever reason, and without a clan) who can join a clan by being blooded by a sponsor of that clan, who effectively becomes their new maker in the process.

VtR elders will atrophy in hibernation naturally, so after waking up centuries later they'll be depowered naturally and have to regain their power through play.

The five clans setup has the right amount of asymmetry: each clan has two disciplines they share with one other clan each, and each clan has one discipline unique to that clan.

Quote from: yosemitemike on June 27, 2024, 02:51:43 PM
Quote from: SmallMountaineer on June 26, 2024, 11:23:07 AMWell, to be absolutely fair, that sort of thing is off-putting to a lot of newcomers seeking a smooth entry-point into a product line.

It was off-putting to me and I ran WoD for most of the 90s.

It's also just, well, irrelevant to the player characters. I know fanboys like to ceaselessly debate the lore, but in practice it's completely irrelevant. Why should the PCs care that a vampire feud was involved in the fall of Carthage two thousand years ago? None of the elders ruling the USA were around when that happened, much less the PCs, but somehow it's made a huge deal by all the vampires. It's bizarre.

If the typical PCs are supposed to be ancient immortals that lived through these events, a la Forever Knight or Highlander, then it would make sense to emphasis ancient history. But in practice, it's irrelevant! All that microfiction lore exposition dumping is just the writers fawning over their own egos.

I strongly suspect that the people who care about WoD lore so much are actually a terminally online minority who don't actually play the games. It's a running gag in ttrpg circles for decades that most WW fans buy the books to read, not play. Most of the people I talk to who say they played almost always stipulate that they ignored the lore and did their own thing, not even reading the books to make sure they knew what the rules even were. I hear this so commonly that it seems like it's the default way groups play the game. So I'm surprised people keep saying WoD is the best when CoD is actually a better fit for how most groups seem to actually play, especially when CoD actually has multiple toolkit books exactly for that, like Mirrors and Mythologies. (I'm not saying CoD is well-designed, it's a typical WW disaster, but its heart was... closer to the right place, I guess?)

Quote from: bromides on June 27, 2024, 03:38:32 PMJust chiming in to restate Osprey's "Sigil & Shadow" as a good alternative using the d100 Lite system, even if it's already been mentioned a couple times before.

I've checked that out a while back. I think I found it interesting, but barely remember. I chatted with the dev on his discord about some of the rules a while back.

I do remember reading Osprey's hunters guides and really enjoying those. The werewolf hunter's guide is really useful on giving a taxonomy of werewolf tropes in folklore and literature. I use it as a standard reference in my own writing.

yosemitemike · June 27, 2024, 04:31:18 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on June 27, 2024, 03:56:08 PMI strongly suspect that the people who care about WoD lore so much are actually a terminally online minority who don't actually play the games.

Most of the people who wanked on about the lore obviously didn't play even at the time. Most of them would admit it with a bit of digging. The stuff they argued about just didn't matter in an actual game at all. That crowd was also fascinated with the idea of cross spalt play but you could tell they had never actually tried to do it.

nWoD is a lot better set up for actual play with the way the splats are organized.

BoxCrayonTales · June 27, 2024, 05:32:14 PM