Quote from: David Johansen;1029677The appropriate D&D edition comparison is fourth.  GURPS has a fantastic tactical combat system.  GURPS doesn't have D&D 4e's focus on balanced encounters, but careful maneuvering is the key to victory in tactical combat.  I've always felt something like Dungeon Fantasy would have really cleaned up when WotC cancelled 4e.

I concur with the comparison to D&D 4e. My view is that while not exactly D&D, 4th edition's combat system was very well designed to allow relative novices to enjoy tactically detailed combat. And rewarded those who took the time to master it.

It was more aligned with replicating fantasy superheroics than the more grounded take of GURPS. Nothing wrong with that on principle except if it is the only thing you ever serve up with the mechanics.

As an aside, I found that unmodified 4th ed. Fantasy Hero ran more slowly for the reasons being speculated with GURPs.  Namely, you have the more complicated options of GURPs, but because Hero is more forgiving, the tactical aspects could drag out instead of ending up with orc brains scattered all over the place or orcs running for the hills.  Hero very much shows its Champions roots in that respect, as it defaults to people staying in fights until unconscious.  System mastery helps, but doesn't fully handle the situation.

What does handle it is to modify Hero to be a little grittier than normal and change the SPD chart to an initiative roll to give more uncertainty.  Then you get something about halfway between AD&D and GURPs--which is what I wanted at the time.

Quote from: estar;1029676In my experience probably somewhere between 30 minutes  to an hour, largely because of the out of game bullshitting that goes and the occasional prolonged "should I do this, or that".

Understand the basic sequence is

1) Pick a maneuver.
2) Attack and/or more in accordance to the Manevuer
3) If Attack roll 3d6 under skill. If successful then
4) Defender rolls 3d6 under his chosen defense
5) If Defender fails, attacker rolls damage
6) Defender subtract armors. Multiplies the remainder by the type of damage it is. Subtracts it from his hit point (based on Strength).

The maneuvers can be summed up as either you move or you take a single three foot step and attack.

The more complicated maneuvers are generally rely on having certain skills (Judo, Fencing, etc) and are a paragraph in length. So for those players with those skills you make a cheat sheet. For everybody else it either move, or take a step and attack.

Of course if you want to get into it, there are modifiers, and ifs and buts. But GURPS clearly distinguishes between basic combat, advanced combat, and combat with all the options in the supplement like with GURPS Martial Arts.

It takes longer to resolve because of the defense roll. However once a target is damaged the possibility of a death spiral mean the odds are that combat will end quickly is greatly increased. Quite simply, the damage you take is also shock and acts as a negative modifier on your next to hit roll and defense roll.

If you don't use the published cheat sheets or fail to make your own. Then yes the game will slow as you wade through rulebooks laid out as generic toolkits leafing through sections used by other genres than the one you are running.

But those of us experienced in GURPS know this beforehand and prepare accordingly. And SJ Games is not blind to this and has published numerous reference sheets.

I get people don't find GURPS to their taste. That different than exaggerating how long things take to resolve. The design of GURPS is outstanding in how it maps it's mechanics to real world (and fictional) concepts. If you know a genre and learn GURPS, it is very easy to figure how to make work after reading a few examples in the supplements they publish.

I found that I needed a map for GURPS, but maybe my spatial skill is low.  I needed one for Pathfinder too.  I can do OSR without one.  That is one piece.

The other is that the modifiers are slow.  Cheat sheets were essential when I ran it (many moons ago) but I am not good at keeping it all in my head.  Maybe enough experience would have helped.

But Rolemaster (which I play now) is at least as slow and it isn't like it isn't fun.

Quote from: trechriron;1025764http://www.gurpscalculator.com/DiceRoller is a great example of a modernizing the tools. It's why I support his Patreon.

This looks interesting, but the site requires you to create a user account to use the tools. Before I give out my email, can you tell me a bit about the content?

Quote from: estar;1029679I concur with the comparison to D&D 4e. My view is that while not exactly D&D, 4th edition's combat system was very well designed to allow relative novices to enjoy tactically detailed combat. And rewarded those who took the time to master it.

It was more aligned with replicating fantasy superheroics than the more grounded take of GURPS. Nothing wrong with that on principle except if it is the only thing you ever serve up with the mechanics.

The Dungeon Fantasy characters are pretty much fantasy superheroes.  The problem is that unless the players are used to GURPS they sit there looking at the characters and wonder why you need Heroic Archer and three skill rolls to fire a bow once per round.

Quote from: David Johansen;1029836The Dungeon Fantasy characters are pretty much fantasy superheroes.  The problem is that unless the players are used to GURPS they sit there looking at the characters and wonder why you need Heroic Archer and three skill rolls to fire a bow once per round.

1) You are right
2) It because DF is designed to reflect Sean Punch view of how dungeon crawling works. Which among other things mean that character can deal with a major portion of a dungeon without having to leave and regroup in town.
3) As a consquence DF start off character 250 pt. In contrast everything I did in the Majestic Wilderland with GURPS starts off at 125 pts (40 pts disads) with some campaigns being at 50 point (20 pts disad) and 75 pts (also 20 pts disads). Very much the opposite of superheroic.

I tend to award 150 to 200 points but then only allow 20 points of disadvantages and require them to make some kind of sense.

Anyhow, I must confess, a major issue I have in GURPS campaigns is players giving up after a big fight and not pressing on to find the treasure.  I really don't feel most npcs should be carrying a treasure chest or indeed anything more than a bit of pocket money on their persons.  Searching the bodies is a trope I can do without really.  I like hierocentric exchange better than looting any day of the week.

Quote from: estar;10298391) You are right
2) It because DF is designed to reflect Sean Punch view of how dungeon crawling works. Which among other things mean that character can deal with a major portion of a dungeon without having to leave and regroup in town.
3) As a consquence DF start off character 250 pt. In contrast everything I did in the Majestic Wilderland with GURPS starts off at 125 pts (40 pts disads) with some campaigns being at 50 point (20 pts disad) and 75 pts (also 20 pts disads). Very much the opposite of superheroic.

I've always wanted to run Gurps. It looks like it would accomplish what I aiming for (low fantasy/low magic) but it needs some engineering. How would this work:

• Gurps Lite as a base, maybe some options in Characters.
• 150 points + 50 points Disads.
• Atts range 10 to 13. I'm trying to avoid att maxing.
• No hit locations. I don't want the game to become "I shoot him in the eye, every time."
• No TBAM, Weapons master, Enthrallment skills.
• No manuevers.
• Nothing that lets you attack more than 1x round. Having trouble figuring out all of the possibilities here.
• Not sure what to do about magic. Probably stick with the classic system in Characters or Magic (I have both).

Here are the things I need help with:

• Nothing that lets you attack more than 1x round. Having trouble figuring out all of the possibilities here.
• Not sure what to do about magic. I'd like to stick with the classic system in Characters or Magic.

Basically I wat to run a fantasy game in Gurps, not D&D in Gurps. Something like Game of Thrones + some Tolkien + D&D spells up to level 4.

Quote from: David Johansen;1029845Searching the bodies is a trope I can do without really.  I like hierocentric exchange better than looting any day of the week.

What's heirocentric?

The money comes from the top of the hierarchy.  That is to say your lord or patron pays you for your service.  It gets rid of a lot of the anti-social tendencies in play.  You do need to make sure the PCs boss doesn't screw them over.  If they do the job and behave themselves, they get paid.  Trust is a hard issue for players for some silly reason

Quote from: David Johansen;1029883The money comes from the top of the hierarchy.  That is to say your lord or patron pays you for your service.  It gets rid of a lot of the anti-social tendencies in play.  You do need to make sure the PCs boss doesn't screw them over.  If they do the job and behave themselves, they get paid.  Trust is a hard issue for players for some silly reason

Trust is an issue for many reasons, starting with GMs who take the "your patron lied and screws you out of your pay" route. If that happens it's supposed to be a Major Issue that drives subsequent adventures, not "Oh, it must be Tuesday."

Quote from: Aglondir;1029849I've always wanted to run Gurps. It looks like it would accomplish what I aiming for (low fantasy/low magic) but it needs some engineering. How would this work:

• Gurps Lite as a base, maybe some options in Characters.
• 150 points + 50 points Disads.
• Atts range 10 to 13. I'm trying to avoid att maxing.
• No hit locations. I don't want the game to become "I shoot him in the eye, every time."
• No TBAM, Weapons master, Enthrallment skills.
• No manuevers.
• Nothing that lets you attack more than 1x round. Having trouble figuring out all of the possibilities here.
• Not sure what to do about magic. Probably stick with the classic system in Characters or Magic (I have both).

Here are the things I need help with:

• Nothing that lets you attack more than 1x round. Having trouble figuring out all of the possibilities here.
• Not sure what to do about magic. I'd like to stick with the classic system in Characters or Magic.

Basically I wat to run a fantasy game in Gurps, not D&D in Gurps. Something like Game of Thrones + some Tolkien + D&D spells up to level 4.

It shouldn't be hard to limit number of attacks per turn. The things that come to mind that could do that would be:

* Trained By A Master and Weapon master and other optional rules from GURPS Martial Arts or GURPS Action, which are normal to not allow.
* The Extra Attacks advantage - didn't exist before 4e; perfectly reasonable to not allow it.
* The Rapid Strike option (B370) - didn't exist before 4e; perfectly reasonable to not allow it.
* The All Out Attack maneuver with the (double) option. This isn't so normal to disallow for balanced weapons, as it means you get no defenses, but go ahead and don't allow it if you want to.
* Some monsters attack with multiple types of attacks at once (e.g. dragon breath & claw) but that I imagine may not be what you meant - your call what to do with those.

For magic, since you want low magic, and think GURPS Magic is fine, I would recommend you do what I do, which is:
Rule that pretty much all magic spells are learned from a person or writing (not from being a wizard with spare character points lets you get whatever spells you qualify for).
If you think some people with Magical Aptitude ought to be able to intuitively learn to do a bit of magic, pick and list exactly which spells that is possible for.
When developing the campaign world, list the groups of people who know any magic, and decide which exact spells they know, where they are, and under what conditions they are willing to teach those spells. I usually make it a pretty limited list of related spells for each group, even when I am planning to have a fair amount of magic in a game, because it helps keep me sane and I like the flavor of limited spell lists by group. It can take a while, but I would go through the whole list of spells and pick the ones you want to be available and which groups know them and what it takes to get them to teach them, and possibly add some more prerequisites to some of them, if you feel like it, and/or nerf or tweak them a bit in interesting ways.

As for your list, I might would tweak it slightly:

* 150 points + 40 points Disads & up to 5 for Quirks, or a single disad of any value.
* Some attributes at 8 or 9 can be OK for some characters.
* For maneuvers, go ahead and ignore them at first, but I think eventually after you get used to the system, you'll probably start to want to allow most of the maneuvers as options. They're really just how you do different things during combat other than "I attack generically". It's how you do such things as ready/change/reload weapons, take time to do something, cast a spell, run, or cower behind a shield rather than trying to hit someone.

Quote from: Skarg;1029915It shouldn't be hard to limit number of attacks per turn. The things that come to mind that could do that would be...

Thanks for the list; exactly what I was looking for. I'm going to disallow items 1-3; All-out attacks and multiple attacks for monsters are fine.  

Quote from: Skarg;1029915For magic, since you want low magic, and think GURPS Magic is fine, I would recommend you do what I do, which is...

All of those are great ideas. I just re-read the magic chapter in Characters and nothing stood out as a red flag, except for the ability to eschew gestures/invocations at high ranks. I prefer that they are always required; I don't want mages casting lightning bolts just by thinking about it. Actually, the spell list in Characters seemed a bit limted, so I'm going to look through Magic next.

Quote from: Skarg;1029915As for your list, I might would tweak it slightly:

Cool, I will try that. Not sure about Manuevers; maybe after I get some experience with the system.

Quote from: Larsdangly;1029241Take a common sort of D&D combat encounter situation: say, 5-7 PC's facing off with 20 orcs. If you are playing pre-3E D&D, this is a 15 minute episode of play. Maybe less. Now do the same thing with GURPS and report back to me on how it went. It's o.k., I'll wait...

  If we are talking Dungeon Fantasy and assuming a party of the classic 4 with support (in this instance I will say a Knight (Fighter), Scout, Thief, Wizard, Cleric) in the form of the extra fighter (scout is the extra).  I would take about 10-15 minutes assuming mook level orcs and a minimum amount of joking about exploding orcs.  Add in two more characters, say a Barbarian and a Swashbuckler and half the orcs are likely dead/incapacitated or combat ineffective after the first time all the players have had a turn.   Gurps handles mook fights very fast IMO, if you are willing to play them as mooks, in that they go down/run/play dead when they get smashed a time or two.  Where GURPS can take a long while is when you fight the tough boss/high skilled important figure.   Then it can become a gamble for a critical, a need to overwhelm the skilled bad guy's defenses or flank him, or having a fighter take the attention of the antagonist while going all out defense until a caster can ramp up a spell or get a back stabber in place.  

   So for me, mook fights are a breeze.  Fights with high skilled participants on both sides, can drag on for a long bit.

Quote from: Larsdangly;1029332I didn't say you couldn't do it; I said it would take all night. And I stand by that. If you want to play a tactical melee game all evening, that's cool. If you want to have a dungeon crawl, better have some snacks and adult diapers handy because you are going to be sitting at that table resolving fights 90 % of the time

  This is not true at all.  Assuming DF characters.  Now a fight with 150 pt chars and 20 orcs, that could take a while.  As I said in my explanation, mook fights are fast for me in GURPS.  It is when you find the high health/DR/Skill boss that a fight can drag on a good deal, but I have had a critical shut a fight down in 1 round before too, so it can be unpredictable.