Quote from: Larsdangly;1029241Take a common sort of D&D combat encounter situation: say, 5-7 PC's facing off with 20 orcs. If you are playing pre-3E D&D, this is a 15 minute episode of play. Maybe less. Now do the same thing with GURPS and report back to me on how it went. It's o.k., I'll wait...

It would probably take about the same amount of time if I was running for one of my groups, but I've been running GURPS for 28 years and I know quite a few tricks.  I will say if it was for a group of complete newbies, it would take at least an hour as I'd have to explain everything and give them time to make decisions.

I'm making quite a few assumptions here, like that the orcs would retreat instead of fighting to the death when enough of them were killed or disabled.  As with so many other things, it depends on the specifics of the scenario.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1029078Yes. Though really, I think GURPS was at its best in Modern games.

I ran a couple of historical GURPS games back in the day, swashbucklers and the Scarlet Pimpernel. But the best GURPS campaign I ran was Illuminati.

I've always ran GURPS as modern and thought it did best with modern settings. I have run Dungeon Fantasy a few times since I got the box set and it does show GURPS can do dungeon adventuring but.....running S&W, AD&D, Palladium, etc. can do it easier (for me).

Quote from: Larsdangly;1029263What the what? I wouldn't have predicted anyone would go there with this question. The scenario I described would take a couple of hours to resolve with Rolemaster, unless the PC's are 30th level or something.

I guess it's true that there's nothing you can say on the internet that won't be taken seriously if you don't use a smiley

Never the less, run properly, Rolemaster can be very fast.  The biggest part is to have everyone work out results simultaneously rather than sequentially.  If you skipped action declaration you multiplied the time needed to run combat by the number of people at the table.  As I said, the reason Rolemaster combat can be faster is that there's no defense roll and no bucket of hit points that can't be brought down by a single lucky blow.  Admittedly RM combat can drag out, but it can also be as fast as, a single 00 on the critical roll.

Quote from: David Johansen;1029300I guess it's true that there's nothing you can say on the internet that won't be taken seriously if you don't use a smiley

Never the less, run properly, Rolemaster can be very fast.  The biggest part is to have everyone work out results simultaneously rather than sequentially.  If you skipped action declaration you multiplied the time needed to run combat by the number of people at the table.  As I said, the reason Rolemaster combat can be faster is that there's no defense roll and no bucket of hit points that can't be brought down by a single lucky blow.  Admittedly RM combat can drag out, but it can also be as fast as, a single 00 on the critical roll.

If Rolemaster ran as a phone Ap it would be quick as lightning. But the reality is you spend hours per session leafing through tables trying to sort out all the little numbers and text blurbs.

Quote from: Ulairi;1029294I've always ran GURPS as modern and thought it did best with modern settings. I have run Dungeon Fantasy a few times since I got the box set and it does show GURPS can do dungeon adventuring but.....running S&W, AD&D, Palladium, etc. can do it easier (for me).

I mostly ran GURPS as ancient/medieval fantasy from the start and I've always thought GURPS shined brightest at doing ancient/medieval combat.

My theory is that GURPS seems best at settings one has a lot of experience running, even more than most other systems. There's a learning curve (especially in 4e whose Basic Set dumps on a reader about 30 settings' worth of options on character creation, and presents a universe-hopping mode of play as a default setting), and is rather different from D&D, and personally I think it mainly gets good when you get into some detailed aspect of it and the GM runs that well. With a learning GM, it may seem quite confusing and weird, slow, too lethal, whatever.

Quote from: Larsdangly;1029241Take a common sort of D&D combat encounter situation: say, 5-7 PC's facing off with 20 orcs. If you are playing pre-3E D&D, this is a 15 minute episode of play. Maybe less. Now do the same thing with GURPS and report back to me on how it went. It's o.k., I'll wait...

Quote from: ThatChrisGuy;1029293It would probably take about the same amount of time if I was running for one of my groups, but I've been running GURPS for 28 years and I know quite a few tricks.  I will say if it was for a group of complete newbies, it would take at least an hour as I'd have to explain everything and give them time to make decisions.

I'm making quite a few assumptions here, like that the orcs would retreat instead of fighting to the death when enough of them were killed or disabled.  As with so many other things, it depends on the specifics of the scenario.

Yes, exactly. I'd add though that a GM can also not explain everything, and explain what's going on in real-world terms and translate what they say they want their PCs to do into game moves and so on.

To me, what I mainly notice about the comparison is that the prospect of that scenario in D&D seems like a fairly predictable task, that even D&D players tend to relate to as something to get through to continue with play, and the time it takes to get it over with is the main consideration, but to me anyway, a 5 vs 20 GURPS combat is more of a juicy fun interesting prospect, and the tactics and mid-battle development of the combat details and the choices they lead to are the play I want to get to.

I didn't say you couldn't do it; I said it would take all night. And I stand by that. If you want to play a tactical melee game all evening, that's cool. If you want to have a dungeon crawl, better have some snacks and adult diapers handy because you are going to be sitting at that table resolving fights 90 % of the time

Quote from: Larsdangly;1029332I didn't say you couldn't do it; I said it would take all night. And I stand by that. If you want to play a tactical melee game all evening, that's cool. If you want to have a dungeon crawl, better have some snacks and adult diapers handy because you are going to be sitting at that table resolving fights 90 % of the time

I'll give it a shot tonight and let you know how long it takes me.

But it seems to me it's more telling to look at the difference in what a combat is like in the two systems. A typical encounter in GURPS generally isn't 20 orcs, because the power curve isn't so steep, there are no blobs of safety hitpoints, and orcs aren't sub-humans and combat isn't abstract and trivialized. There are quick easy fights in GURPS just probably doesn't mean 20 orcs, and even a 5 vs 8 or a 2 vs 5 or a 1 vs 2 fight can be fun and interesting and not a chore.

Quote from: Larsdangly;1029332I didn't say you couldn't do it; I said it would take all night. And I stand by that. If you want to play a tactical melee game all evening, that's cool. If you want to have a dungeon crawl, better have some snacks and adult diapers handy because you are going to be sitting at that table resolving fights 90 % of the time

I don't agree, and I'm talking from experience.  I spend less than half of each session, on average, on combat.  We typically spend more time bullshitting with each other.  For an example, Peter Dell'Orto's run a dungeoncrawl using GURPS for years and he often has several fights per session.  He has had fights that took the whole session, but back when I was playing AD&D regularly in the early '90s it took whole sessions for some battles.

GURPS isn't going to work well for everyone, but who gives a crap?  Play D&D (etc.) if that's what you want, it works just fine for people who like it.  I don't enjoy playing or running it, so I run something else.

Quote from: Larsdangly;1029312If Rolemaster ran as a phone Ap it would be quick as lightning. But the reality is you spend hours per session leafing through tables trying to sort out all the little numbers and text blurbs.

No, you just need to be a bit organized.  I even use the experience rules as written.  You can very easily track stuff like skill use and criticals on the same sheet you track monster hp.  The players should have copies of their weapon, spell list, and critical tables, it can be helpful to write your skill on each weapon table and track your hit points on the one you use the most to cut flipping and shuffling.  The same thing applies to the referee.  You can handle each monster with a different weapon with a little Arms Law familiarity but it's usually best to keep it to a couple tables per encounter.  Again, the thing that makes Rolemaster fast is lethality.  Fights don't last many rounds.  Somebody gets stunned, and then dies when their foe doesn't parry and gets in a serious blow.

In GURPS or Rolemaster being outnumbered by orcs is the worst possible scenario for the PCs.  Numbers kill, still, the fight will be over quickly one way or another.

I ran an encounter last night between 20 mostly-individualized orcs* versus 5 actual PCs (quite different, various point values). It took me about 30 minutes to resolve, using full rules including my Combat Sense rules.  (* different attributes, skills, ads/disads, equipment, variable armor on various body parts, etc)

At first I considered how an actual encounter in-campaign would work, and realized the most likely result was the PCs would tend to detect the 20 orcs first and either avoid them or observe them and then try to set up a situation where they'd be most effective, such as waiting for the orcs to camp for the night and then slaughtering them in a night attack.

However that seemed out of scope for what you had in mind, so I chose a close-ish-range starting position that made some sense - the PCs following a road and chatting and assumed to not have noticed the 20 orcs who also didn't notice them until they were 50-80 feet (~15-25m) away due to some bushes and large rocks the orcs were lounging behind. I resolved the details of what each orc and PC was aware of, thinking and doing.

The PCs had one archer who rightly guessed who two of the best orcs were and managed to send one barely able to stagger away with with an arrow to the guts, and dropped the leader with an arrow to the head. The orcs had a good crossbowman and some archers, but the charge of all the others blocked most chances for a clear shot at the PCs - one got a shot off but it missed. A group of several of the biggest orcs with two-handed battleaxes reached the PCs but three of them were immediately dropped by two PCs - one PC with a quarrterstaff who knocked one out with a stop-thrust to the face and broke another's right arm, and a strong PC with a fine greatsword who landed a critical hit to a giant orc's head for 52 damage (sliced the head in half). With five of their best wiped out by single attacks in six seconds before the orcs got anywhere near the PCs, I checked morale and they panicked and routed.

I noticed that most of the real-world time was spent actually running the orcs realistically reacting to spotting the party and making their way through and around the rocks! I'm curious to see how long it takes if I force the groups to start out more or less right in front of each other at close range - maybe rounding a street-corner at the same time.

I understand how GURPS works and remain unconvinced. A solo-run fight that gets cut off after 6 seconds is not very much like what happens at a table with a big fight, 3-5 players nattering away and making decisions.

Quote from: Larsdangly;1029518I understand how GURPS works and remain unconvinced. A solo-run fight that gets cut off after 6 seconds is not very much like what happens at a table with a big fight, 3-5 players nattering away and making decisions.

It is if

a) I handled it as I would during play, to the point where one side routed.

b) The GM doesn't let players natter away or take time to decide what to do when it's their turn to say what they do next.

And never mind that running such a fight is actually fun, interesting, uncertain and has possible significant consequences, and the results make detailed sense?

What do you think your point is?

Should I do it "theater of the mind" with generic identical orcs as a meatgrinder battle to the death? Ok, I will. ... 17 minutes, and still more interesting to me than running a D&D fight. (The results were a bloodbath. The PC archer got two shots off and felled two orcs with gut shots. Then they were able to mostly kill them about as fast as they came, suffering several hits but none that got through armor. Three of the orcs' shields were chopped to pieces, four of them had their weapon arms crippled - three by greatsword and one by quarterstaff. Six of them were run through their vital organs with a bastard sword, six were felled by single mighty cutting blows to the torso by greatsword, battleaxe or poleaxe, and two were beaten to unconsciousness by quarterstaff.)

I think it can both be true that a highly experienced GURPS person can run a complex fight especially fast (quicker than I could manage it) and that GURPS fights generally take more time than OD&D (for example).  I found high level 3rd edition D&D, 4th edition D&D, and Pathfinder also run slowly.  Some of it can be sped up by system mastery (what does this feat or power do is a time suck).  

Sometimes the complex combat is the point of the game.  If this is what people enjoy then BRAVO.  

If I want less rules mastery then something like Lamentations of the Flame Princess or BECMI or OD&D has a very low barrier to entry.  It also models a lot of of combat less accurately and has some very quirky rules.

Some rules sets support certain play styles more directly than others.  You can certainly do dungeon GURPS and I totally get it might add a dimension that might be really enjoyable.  But it seems to play against type if we are considering the old style classic games.  A good GM can obviously make the system work well and I would play dungeon GURPS with a good GM in a hot second (good GMs are hard to find).  But my instinct says it would be easier to adapt earlier style of games for an old school open table dungeon crawl with high character mortality.  

But people do dungeon crawls with Pathfinder all of the time and I don't think it is faster then GURPS, either in combat or character creation.  I have, mostly as the GM.  I can't see how GURPS wouldn't be just as effective.

Quote from: Larsdangly;1029312If Rolemaster ran as a phone Ap it would be quick as lightning. But the reality is you spend hours per session leafing through tables trying to sort out all the little numbers and text blurbs.

Nah.

I ran MERP/Rolemaster for years.  You give every player their weapon tables, and use a good GM screen.  After a few sessions, things start to hum.  Players get some levels under their belt and some decent quality weapons, they can do some serious orc-carving.

Quote from: Larsdangly;1029518I understand how GURPS works and remain unconvinced. A solo-run fight that gets cut off after 6 seconds is not very much like what happens at a table with a big fight, 3-5 players nattering away and making decisions.

In my experience probably somewhere between 30 minutes  to an hour, largely because of the out of game bullshitting that goes and the occasional prolonged "should I do this, or that".

Understand the basic sequence is

1) Pick a maneuver.
2) Attack and/or more in accordance to the Manevuer
3) If Attack roll 3d6 under skill. If successful then
4) Defender rolls 3d6 under his chosen defense
5) If Defender fails, attacker rolls damage
6) Defender subtract armors. Multiplies the remainder by the type of damage it is. Subtracts it from his hit point (based on Strength).

The maneuvers can be summed up as either you move or you take a single three foot step and attack.

The more complicated maneuvers are generally rely on having certain skills (Judo, Fencing, etc) and are a paragraph in length. So for those players with those skills you make a cheat sheet. For everybody else it either move, or take a step and attack.

Of course if you want to get into it, there are modifiers, and ifs and buts. But GURPS clearly distinguishes between basic combat, advanced combat, and combat with all the options in the supplement like with GURPS Martial Arts.

It takes longer to resolve because of the defense roll. However once a target is damaged the possibility of a death spiral mean the odds are that combat will end quickly is greatly increased. Quite simply, the damage you take is also shock and acts as a negative modifier on your next to hit roll and defense roll.

If you don't use the published cheat sheets or fail to make your own. Then yes the game will slow as you wade through rulebooks laid out as generic toolkits leafing through sections used by other genres than the one you are running.

But those of us experienced in GURPS know this beforehand and prepare accordingly. And SJ Games is not blind to this and has published numerous reference sheets.

I get people don't find GURPS to their taste. That different than exaggerating how long things take to resolve. The design of GURPS is outstanding in how it maps it's mechanics to real world (and fictional) concepts. If you know a genre and learn GURPS, it is very easy to figure how to make work after reading a few examples in the supplements they publish.