Quote from: RPGPundit;1028541I don't.

That's kind of my point. To me, the lure of point buy is being able to do EXACTLY what I want, and the lure of randomized character creation I listed above.

I tend to fall on the side that randomized creation such as 3d6 down the line tends to make for better roleplaying.

You'd build it a lot like Mutant Chronicles Resurrection.  Fixed number of rolls to get a fixed number of packages built on fixed number of points with a few branches to make sure you don't get an ST 15, DX 9, IQ 8, HT13 Wizard.

Anyhow, played Dungeon Fantasy again last night and had fun.  Drauger are really dangerous.  ST22 4d+2 Cuting, skill 16, 27 HP.  I still feel it could have been beginner friendly, a lot of the special abilities are only special because they violate the normal GURPS rules.  Firing every round is only special if you are used to firing every third round.

I've been playing around with a GURPS clone again.  Probably because I have other work I need to be doing  But it gets me to the question of how compatible / recognizable to make it.  I think it becomes less useful to other people as it get farther from GURPS but presents more of a threat / legal problem the closer it gets.  Oh well, I'm not that serious about it, but the question of what I'd do and how I'd do it is always fun.

I was thinking 16 page core rules and 16 page supplements covering fantasy (magic, races, small world, small dungeon), science fiction (starships, aliens, worlds), spies (agencies, modern hardware, conspiracies), superheroes (powers, law, setting, characters).  Anyhow, the core rules might wind up being 32 pages.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1027034GURPS is really good at certain things. D&D is not one of them.

I always thought it shined the most in modern and science fiction settings, where the skill based system was entirely natural.  That isn't to mean that it cannot do fantasy (a different claim) but that all systems have strong/weak points.  So I agree here.

Quote from: Votan;1028757I always thought it shined the most in modern and science fiction settings, where the skill based system was entirely natural.  That isn't to mean that it cannot do fantasy (a different claim) but that all systems have strong/weak points.  So I agree here.

gurps is great for all sorts of pre modern tech level or fantasy games. but the speed and dangerousness of combat make it a very poor choice for d+d style dungeon crawls

Quote from: Larsdangly;1028774gurps is great for all sorts of pre modern tech level or fantasy games. but the speed and dangerousness of combat make it a very poor choice for d+d style dungeon crawls

Heh, well if someone's goal is to have D&D-style dungeon crawls where combat plays like D&D and not like GURPS, then hmm, yeah, maybe they should use a game that plays like D&D.

Dungeon Fantasy does adjust GURPS fantasy dungeon play (which IMO was already great fun in all its pre-Dungeon Fantasy forms) to be more D&D-like, what with the D&D-class-like character templates, the buckets of points and super-abilities, the dungeon focus, the slightly lighter realism/detail-focus, and the various flavors of deadly monsters with special abilities. Adding piles of abstract hit points would be the point where I'd almost rather be playing D&D (or not wanting to play, because I don't like piles of abstract hitpoints - I like specific injuries/damages/fatigues or avoidances of them).

Quote from: Skarg;1028806Heh, well if someone's goal is to have D&D-style dungeon crawls where combat plays like D&D and not like GURPS, then hmm, yeah, maybe they should use a game that plays like D&D.

Dungeon Fantasy does adjust GURPS fantasy dungeon play (which IMO was already great fun in all its pre-Dungeon Fantasy forms) to be more D&D-like, what with the D&D-class-like character templates, the buckets of points and super-abilities, the dungeon focus, the slightly lighter realism/detail-focus, and the various flavors of deadly monsters with special abilities. Adding piles of abstract hit points would be the point where I'd almost rather be playing D&D (or not wanting to play, because I don't like piles of abstract hitpoints - I like specific injuries/damages/fatigues or avoidances of them).

I once GMed a military GURPS game.  If somebody had a high enough firearms skill it was appalling lethal.  A sniper rifle aimed head shot was just berserk.  

To make very high fantasy work seems hard in such a setting.  Either the wizards have far less power than modern battlefield weapons or it is going to be rather hard for the fighters to compete.  I suppose some of this might be mitigated by the right feats and tools.  But I saw things like explosively realistic combat deaths to be a plus of GURPS.  But smart GURPS players seemed to start avoiding fights very, very quickly in my games.  When they did fight, it was all about the ambush.  

Maybe medieval weapons work less well then firearms at injuring people in GURPS.  But I remember a sniper rifle doing 7d of damage in a game where many of the characters had 12 health.  Body armor helped (except against the character who was able to reliably place a called shot to the eye with sufficient aiming), but getting shot generally just sucked if military grade equipment was around (and this was 1990's style stuff, I am sure things are worse today).

Quote from: Larsdangly;1028774gurps is great for all sorts of pre modern tech level or fantasy games. but the speed and dangerousness of combat make it a very poor choice for d+d style dungeon crawls

Not my experience in running 20 years of Majestic Wilderlands using the GURPS rules. It not 100% the same as how things play out in the AD&D campaigns I ran. However the characters continue do the same things for the same reason. Tactics change, the importance of ambush increases. What people forget that from 1st to mid levels D&D is as deadly.

Dungeon crawls are some of the first things I ran with GURPS.  It's really no worse at it that lower level D&D.  In fact, with wizards being able to learn healing spells it might even be better.

Let's talk GURPS survival tools.  Armour and shields are a must for low tech fighters.  Don't neglect limb armour, limb crippling hits will put you on the bench if they aren't the first step in dying.  Fencing weapons are fine but they break easily and penetrate armour poorly unless you're good enough to target the weak spots in the armour.  If you're in a fantasy world you need a healer or healing potions but never, ever, neglect to take First Aid skill.  Everyone in the party should have it so they can make themselves useful when they're the last man standing and the healing potions run out.  A good healer will extend your adventuring day.  Missile fire can be good but it's slow and people can dodge.  I could make a long rant about how Crossbows in GURPS are actually worse than they are in AD&D (where they're pathetic) because, people can dodge.  Bear that if you have lots of armour and a shield your dodge will be lower, that's okay until the advent of firearms.  Armour and a shield are more reliable than dodging.

Okay, now, when guns come along they're not the end of the heavy fighter's day, but you might want to ditch the limb armour to get your dodge up.  Dodging is pretty effective against slow loading weapons.  Once repeating firearms come along it's time to ditch the armour and dodge, well, until Kevlar comes along anyhow.  Even then it's debatable.  Cover matters at this point and fights are often won by the first volley.

Quote from: Votan;1028818I once GMed a military GURPS game.  If somebody had a high enough firearms skill it was appalling lethal.  A sniper rifle aimed head shot was just berserk.

A bit like a bullet through the brain?

Quote from: Votan;1028818To make very high fantasy work seems hard in such a setting.  Either the wizards have far less power than modern battlefield weapons or it is going to be rather hard for the fighters to compete.  I suppose some of this might be mitigated by the right feats and tools.  But I saw things like explosively realistic combat deaths to be a plus of GURPS.  But smart GURPS players seemed to start avoiding fights very, very quickly in my games.  When they did fight, it was all about the ambush.

Maybe medieval weapons work less well then firearms at injuring people in GURPS.  But I remember a sniper rifle doing 7d of damage in a game where many of the characters had 12 health.  Body armor helped (except against the character who was able to reliably place a called shot to the eye with sufficient aiming), but getting shot generally just sucked if military grade equipment was around (and this was 1990's style stuff, I am sure things are worse today).

For GURPS Magic (there are a few different magic systems), the wizards have very different power than modern military weapons, and yes generally nowhere near the direct destructive power of modern military weapons (nor even a civilian revolver or semi-automatic pistol). A wizard can be very effective in other ways, though, especially if they are clever and not just trying to blast things directly.

Ancient/medieval fighting in GURPS is very different from gun combat. Shields and armor and dodging and parrying and maneuvering and so on can all be relatively effective at usually keeping people from being killed by the first thing that attacks them. An axe to the head can be just as deadly as a bullet, but it has much shorter range, lower rate of fire, and is easier to dodge or block, too. And there are all sorts of varieties of ways combats can play out. Playing out low-tech tactical combats in GURPS is more or less my favorite board game.

Fighting with guns, it makes sense to do whatever you can think of to not get shot, and ambush is one way. Planning on being able to survive getting shot more times than your opponents naturally isn't usually effective unless it involves bulletproof armor.

Quote from: Votan;1028757I always thought it shined the most in modern and science fiction settings, where the skill based system was entirely natural.  That isn't to mean that it cannot do fantasy (a different claim) but that all systems have strong/weak points.  So I agree here.

Yes. Though really, I think GURPS was at its best in Modern games.

I ran a couple of historical GURPS games back in the day, swashbucklers and the Scarlet Pimpernel. But the best GURPS campaign I ran was Illuminati.

Take a common sort of D&D combat encounter situation: say, 5-7 PC's facing off with 20 orcs. If you are playing pre-3E D&D, this is a 15 minute episode of play. Maybe less. Now do the same thing with GURPS and report back to me on how it went. It's o.k., I'll wait...

Individualized GURPS orcs or generic Dungeon Fantasy or GURPS Orcslayer orcs?

Experienced GURPS players or newbies?

Okay, anyhow, if it's DF PCs verses Orcslayer orcs, it'll be over fast enough.  A sixteen strength knight with an extra attack will be good for at least one orc per round and maybe two.  It depends a bit on the party.  A wizard slinging exploding fireballs or a scout dropping arrows into their eyes, which isn't unrealistic with Heroic Archer and Weapon Master (Bow), yeah, 20 of the basic 25 point orcs won't even work up a sweat.  The Dungeon Fantasy orcs are tougher and twenty is probably too many but even so, the combat could swing either way pretty fast.  One thing about Dungeon Fantasy is that the cost of armour has been massively jacked up relative to the Basic Set so the fighters won't be rocking full epic plate and they'll actually manage to take some damage.  Of course the situation matters an open field favours the orcs because they can fully exploit their numerical advantage and narrow corridors favour the adventurers.

Admittedly, D&D can run big fights faster than GURPS, but those DF characters are heavy hitters and nothing's a bucket of hit points in GURPS.  Of course it depends on which version of D&D you're playing.

Rolemaster does it faster than either because everybody's dead and maimed after a couple of rounds.

Quote from: David Johansen;1029246Rolemaster does it faster than either because everybody's dead and maimed after a couple of rounds.

What the what? I wouldn't have predicted anyone would go there with this question. The scenario I described would take a couple of hours to resolve with Rolemaster, unless the PC's are 30th level or something.

Quote from: Larsdangly;1029241Take a common sort of D&D combat encounter situation: say, 5-7 PC's facing off with 20 orcs. If you are playing pre-3E D&D, this is a 15 minute episode of play. Maybe less. Now do the same thing with GURPS and report back to me on how it went. It's o.k., I'll wait...

An hour to resolve on average depending how the opening of the encounter plays out. Max maybe two hours if the situation is fluid.

If the time to resolve an encounter your criteria then yes GURPS is a poor choice, but then by that criteria for any type of campaign GURPS would be a poor cihoice.

But why does it take longer? It is a bunch of unneeded rolls and rules? Or rather is what GURPS chooses to focus on and the level of detail? GURPS combat takes longer because the defender has a roll along with tactical options. This means an encounter goes back and forth longer. D&D in contrast has a flat modifier for defense that the attacker has to overcome. But add options like healing then suddenly D&D style combat starts to balloon out to GURPS length.

It boils down to a matter of taste. Those of use who like GURPS like the detail. Like the fact that in GURPS very little is abstracted. The consequence is that from the start of the campaign, combat encounters will take longer to resolve.

Except for one thing, GURPS has the option of making combat an opposed roll. This makes resolving combat encounter a lot quicker. While the defender has a roll, skill now counts a lot more making combat between disparate foes resolve a lot faster.