Quote from: RPGPundit;1035592Never even heard of it.

For some reason my initial reply was deleted when I pressed edit.

I am not suprized you haven't heard of it, I don't peg you as a person that follows DF releases.
It was a release that was long overdue, if you read the DF rules a town is implied but we never have had an actual example. Caverntown is a good example of such a town with neat ideas and examples of how certain things can be done.

I didn't realize it was a Dungeon Fantasy product.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1035928I didn't realize it was a Dungeon Fantasy product.

The release of GURPS 4th edition was followed up by the line of genre and setting sourcebooks. The setting sourcebooks were a bit meh and as the genres approached the coverage that 3rd edition had people want better support.

So starting with Dungeon Fantasy Sean Punch created a line of Print/PDF release that covered a subgenre in more specific detail. They saved time buy going through all the options that GURPS had and presenting the ones needed for the subgenre. In addition they were little more generic than the setting books like Banestorm, Voodoo, Cabal, etc. In the same way editions of D&D are generic.

They are

GURPS Dungeon Fantasy
GURPS Monster Hunters
GURPS Action
GURPS After the End

The Dungeon Fantasy RPG builds on the work done in GURPS Dungeon Fantasy but it is a standalone product

Another way to put it is in a time line.

GURPS 4e
GURPS  Fantasy/Banestorm
GURPS Dungeon Fantasy
Dungeon Fantasy RPG.

Unlike most RPG Companies, all subsequent products are built on top of GURPS 4e just presented differently. The "new" stuff in DF RPG are really GURPS 4e X Advantage/Disadvantage with Enhancement/Limitation written as a standalone element.

Quote from: estar;1035945The release of GURPS 4th edition was followed up by the line of genre and setting sourcebooks. The setting sourcebooks were a bit meh and as the genres approached the coverage that 3rd edition had people want better support.

So starting with Dungeon Fantasy Sean Punch created a line of Print/PDF release that covered a subgenre in more specific detail. They saved time buy going through all the options that GURPS had and presenting the ones needed for the subgenre. In addition they were little more generic than the setting books like Banestorm, Voodoo, Cabal, etc. In the same way editions of D&D are generic.

They are

GURPS Dungeon Fantasy
GURPS Monster Hunters
GURPS Action
GURPS After the End

The Dungeon Fantasy RPG builds on the work done in GURPS Dungeon Fantasy but it is a standalone product

Another way to put it is in a time line.

GURPS 4e
GURPS  Fantasy/Banestorm
GURPS Dungeon Fantasy
Dungeon Fantasy RPG.

Unlike most RPG Companies, all subsequent products are built on top of GURPS 4e just presented differently. The "new" stuff in DF RPG are really GURPS 4e X Advantage/Disadvantage with Enhancement/Limitation written as a standalone element.

Something odd to me about 4e (though I get how/why) is that the 4e Basic Set contains most of the material (especially character traits) from the 3e Compendium books, which means practically every screwball special power or nonhuman ability from all the countless 1e-3e world books, plus systems for adjusting them and calculating how many points that should cost, and it also has content for various genres (some high tech, some magic, some psi...) and some setting info about the Infinite Earths campaign setting (which isn't a novice setting IMO unless you don't mind winging a lot of stuff). Even I (the guy who loves and has internalized megatons of GURPS crunch) find those aspects of the 4e Basic Set cumbersome, overwhelming, and mostly noise I don't want and will never use and just have to work around (if I had more time to kill, I'd get a PDF or hardcopy and black/cut out all that noise).

The thing is, it's much more than many GMs will ever need, so if you're going to run a specific campaign set in one time period and without psionics or supers or mutant PCs, there is a LOT that won't ever get used.

So the used rules for a campaign are some fraction of what's in 4e, plus whatever you want from additional books.

In addition to that, the subgenre lines estar mentioned above (at least Action and DF - I haven't really looked all that much at After The End or Monster Hunters) also tend to suggest a lighter-seriousness playstyle that what I tend to expect from GURPS.

My main genre is fantasy, but I am not about to use (or even adapt) much of anything from GURPS Fantasy because it's not a generic material book but a setting that's mostly not what my homebrew settings are like. Dungeon Fantasy is even farther from what I usually run, and I mostly avoided it too until the DF RPG came out, which I got because it looked like a way to get most DF stuff, had nice components including counters and maps, and I wanted to support the effort to put out an entry-level fantasy-focused GURPS product.

I think the DF RPG succeeds as a shiny entry product that lets you get all you need to run fantasy GURPS games with tactical combat and without all the noise from irrelevant content.

I agree with several others here that I'd rather it were not the generic D&D/Diablo-like setting DF uses... except they've already committed to that with DF. But creative GMs can of course invent their own settings as usual.

GURPS seems more like a DIY RPG kit than an RPG. The Dungeon Fantasy RPG seems like a decent example of how to build an RPG out of GURPS, just not one many people have a reason to buy.

I've read farther, and holy shit are there a lot of different things to roll 3d6 for.

Quote from: fearsomepirate;1035960GURPS seems more like a DIY RPG kit than an RPG. The Dungeon Fantasy RPG seems like a decent example of how to build an RPG out of GURPS, just not one many people have a reason to buy.

I've read farther, and holy shit are there a lot of different things to roll 3d6 for.

According to the publisher, that's exactly what GURPS is, and what Dungeon Fantasy RPG is. Hence the appeal of GURPS is chiefly limited to those who want the tools to DIY.

Quote from: fearsomepirate;1035960GURPS seems more like a DIY RPG kit than an RPG. The Dungeon Fantasy RPG seems like a decent example of how to build an RPG out of GURPS, just not one many people have a reason to buy.

I've read farther, and holy shit are there a lot of different things to roll 3d6 for.

This is exactly right and by demand. They should OGL GURPS and watch it explod.

Quote from: Ulairi;1035965This is exactly right and by demand. They should OGL GURPS and watch it explod.

Either that or they should license it out to someone with a good idea for an RPG (i.e. not a straight clone of D&D with less interesting monsters) who doesn't want to go through all the BS of designing your own system from the ground up.

I've been thinking about putting together a DF dungeon, but the more I think about it, the more I want to do GURPS reduced to Hero Quest (the Milton Bradley one).  A deck of encounter cards, geomorphic tiles, treasure cards, pregenerated characters without points costs listed.  It'd be usable with DF of course, but functional with just GURPS lite.  Maybe it's just the influence of the guys playing Warhammer Quest Silver Tower in the store just lately.

Quote from: Ulairi;1035965This is exactly right and by demand. They should OGL GURPS and watch it explod.

Quote from: fearsomepirate;1035968Either that or they should license it out to someone with a good idea for an RPG (i.e. not a straight clone of D&D with less interesting monsters) who doesn't want to go through all the BS of designing your own system from the ground up.

I thought the fan-made version of the Warhammer Fantasy RPG remixed for GURPS was a good example of this. There have been some other fan-made campaign books posted e.g. for Star Wars and WW2. Though the quality and editing and playtesting/development tends to suffer in comparison to official GURPS stuff, what gets presented tends to be much more like content useful for actual play rather than overviews without enough crunchy content, which has been the issue with most GURPS worldbooks and what leaves them mostly being tools for GMs who will do the rest of the work, rather than ready-to-play.

Quote from: Skarg;1035959Even I (the guy who loves and has internalized megatons of GURPS crunch) find those aspects of the 4e Basic Set cumbersome, overwhelming, and mostly noise I don't want and will never use and just have to work around (if I had more time to kill, I'd get a PDF or hardcopy and black/cut out all that noise).

It is designed and written as THE GURPS Toolkit Reference. Your reactions doesn't surprise me. I think it needed but not as the main product entry. The only thing good is that they held true to not adding anything to the core rules since it release. Everything is either in addition to (like GURPS Ritual Path Magic) or calculated with the elements of the core books.

Quote from: Skarg;1035959The thing is, it's much more than many GMs will ever need, so if you're going to run a specific campaign set in one time period and without psionics or supers or mutant PCs, there is a LOT that won't ever get used.

In the early 2000s they staked their claim to the the generic toolkit RPG and driven it deep into the Earth. I debated this point often. That the main appeal of the GURPS 2nd edition boxed set was that it was obvious to see how to use it as a alternative to D&D.


In addition to that, the subgenre lines estar mentioned above (at least Action and DF - I haven't really looked all that much at After The End or Monster Hunters) also tend to suggest a lighter-seriousness playstyle that what I tend to expect from GURPS.

My main genre is fantasy, but I am not about to use (or even adapt) much of anything from GURPS Fantasy because it's not a generic material book but a setting that's mostly not what my homebrew settings are like. Dungeon Fantasy is even farther from what I usually run, and I mostly avoided it too until the DF RPG came out, which I got because it looked like a way to get most DF stuff, had nice components including counters and maps, and I wanted to support the effort to put out an entry-level fantasy-focused GURPS product.

I think the DF RPG succeeds as a shiny entry product that lets you get all you need to run fantasy GURPS games with tactical combat and without all the noise from irrelevant content.

Quote from: Skarg;1035959I agree with several others here that I'd rather it were not the generic D&D/Diablo-like setting DF uses... except they've already committed to that with DF. But creative GMs can of course invent their own settings as usual.

In my view they missed the fucking point with the GURPS Dungeon Fantasy. Everybody I knew who played GURPS in Eastern Ohio and Western PA, did it because it was grittier, more hard core alternative to D&D that oh by the way lets you make the exact character you want to play. And did it in a well designed set of rules that made sense.

What we didn't look to do was play 250 point Fantasy Superheroes which GURPS Dungeon Fantasy does. And I don't know what D&D campaign Sean Punch played but until you reached higher levels, there were numerous times you had to cut and run or make sure you stealth around. As well as be smart and setup ambushes where you can. We didn't grind through room after room during a course of a session.

But setting it at the 250 points it makes everything that much more complex. And on top of it the monsters are scaled to boot so it winds up in the same point my 100 to 150 pt GURPS Majestic Wilderlands campaigns were at.

Quote from: RandyB;1035962According to the publisher, that's exactly what GURPS is, and what Dungeon Fantasy RPG is. Hence the appeal of GURPS is chiefly limited to those who want the tools to DIY.

The problem is that their market share imploded. GURPS at one time was the #4 RPG.

Quote from: estar;1035977It is designed and written as THE GURPS Toolkit Reference. Your reactions doesn't surprise me. I think it needed but not as the main product entry. The only thing good is that they held true to not adding anything to the core rules since it release. Everything is either in addition to (like GURPS Ritual Path Magic) or calculated with the elements of the core books.

I totally agree. I think it's great that they integrated the Compendiums into an uber central rules module, and I want it on my shelf for the occasional times I'm interested in that. But for absorbing 4e, making a 4e character, and reference to the 4e rules I usually use in play, probably most of it could/should be left out.

QuoteIn the early 2000s they staked their claim to the the generic toolkit RPG and driven it deep into the Earth. I debated this point often. That the main appeal of the GURPS 2nd edition boxed set was that it was obvious to see how to use it as a alternative to D&D.

Yep, the 1e/2e Basic Set content is nicely limited to what rules are actually needed to run a fantasy campaign (minus an elaborate magic spell list or monsters or setting). And apart from some rules/balance/organization tweaks, the rules are mostly the same and nearly interchangeable in all editions 1e through 3e, and mostly for 4e too. 3e makes good refinements and adds more magic/psionics to the basic set (which I tended to ignore or replace), but it doesn't go and intermix all the skills and ads/disads from every setting into the list. The GM's job in making a usable player guide to making a character is largely to hack out most of what's in the 4e Basic Set so players can grasp what's available.

QuoteIn my view they missed the fucking point with the GURPS Dungeon Fantasy. Everybody I knew who played GURPS in Eastern Ohio and Western PA, did it because it was grittier, more hard core alternative to D&D that oh by the way lets you make the exact character you want to play. And did it in a well designed set of rules that made sense.

What we didn't look to do was play 250 point Fantasy Superheroes which GURPS Dungeon Fantasy does. And I don't know what D&D campaign Sean Punch played but until you reached higher levels, there were numerous times you had to cut and run or make sure you stealth around. As well as be smart and setup ambushes where you can. We didn't grind through room after room during a course of a session.

But setting it at the 250 points it makes everything that much more complex. And on top of it the monsters are scaled to boot so it winds up in the same point my 100 to 150 pt GURPS Majestic Wilderlands campaigns were at.

Yes, I think you're exactly right. GURPS is really fun and manageable with low-point-total characters. I can handle a lot of complexity, but I'd rather not deal with all the stuff in the DF RPG class templates, especially when learning a new character, let alone a new system. I'd much rather play Orcslayer with 80-point Man to Man or GURPS 3e/4e characters than I Smell A Rat with hundreds-of-points characters, and full GURPS with 100-point characters seems easier/simpler to play to me than DF RPG with 250 point characters.