It seems to me like it's so much easier to play starting with say 80-100 point starting characters, as there's so much less to think about. And I don't want any of the "make it be like D&D" content, conventions, templates or power scale, anyway. Personally, I think the first GURPS adventure and second-ever GURPS book, Orcslayer, is a nice place to start learning the system. The production value of Dungeon Fantasy is quite good, though, and at least it is a version of mostly what you need to start playing 4e with only fantasy/medieval content. But it actually has a lot of its own flavor of noise that I personally don't want. (But I'm not the main target audience, since I can make my own GURPS campaign from memory without any books, and I don't need any of it. And I do like the shiny books and maps and might use the monsters and some other bits and pieces.)

It seems the Dungeon Fantasy line is their pdf best seller.  Personally I'd have liked a simpler entry level game and lower point totals.  That said, the PCs are highly competent in play and feel very heroic and can do heroic things.

Quote from: David Johansen;1023010It seems the Dungeon Fantasy line is their pdf best seller.  Personally I'd have liked a simpler entry level game and lower point totals.  That said, the PCs are highly competent in play and feel very heroic and can do heroic things.

Which is generally more fun for players in my experience. Also, it makes adventures more fun to run. You can just be all "THIS!" at the table with less trepidation you are going to wipe the party.

SJ Games released their report to the stakeholders. Despise DF having sold well it isn't successful because they fucked up the production of it and couldn't hit their deadlines. I'm glad I sold out of my GURPS products for a nice sum.

I think trying another format was a good idea but I think it came in a little too expensive and was, well too generic.  It's a really nice box but there are lots of dungeon crawl games out there and it needed some gimmick or feature to set it apart.  I don't think miniatures would help, and miniatures are my thing.  Action figures might have, a link to a popular and recognizable property might have, but somewhere in there it just wasn't quite different enough.  I'm glad they tried it but I think it might actually send the right message to SJG.  GURPS fans will step up and pay upfront for physical product a year in advance but a boxed game won't help GURPS break into the mainstream.  I still think it was a good idea, I'd have streamlined things down to a simpler game.  Personally it's a bit much for an introductory product.  But I don't think that's why there isn't long term, stable demand for Dungeon Fantasy.  It just doesn't grab attention and stand out from the crowd.

Quote from: David Johansen;1025562I think trying another format was a good idea but I think it came in a little too expensive and was, well too generic.  It's a really nice box but there are lots of dungeon crawl games out there and it needed some gimmick or feature to set it apart.

They excel at capturing genres and history for sourcebooks but when it comes to specific settings oh boy!

They been trying the gimmick for years. Banestorm, licensed properties, etc. SJ Games is are not particularly good at picking what appeals. There are exceptions like GURPS Traveller but overall they tend to pick weird obscure things to do. This time they needed something bog standard.

The other reason and one that fans of Gurps refuse to hear or admit is that the system is  not as popular as it once was imo. They can waste a million dollars on production values and it probably will not sell as well imo. As long as they keep marketing to Gurps fans and only them I don't think things will improve imo. I also agree with the poster and Gurps poor choice of IPs. Was there really that huge of a demand for Mars Attacks. They also list and probably keep losing market share to Savage Worlds and Fate.

I find it to be basically indistinguishable from GURPS, and the suggested starting power level is too high for my tastes (I think GURPS is most interesting between 50 and 150 points, total, and becomes nearly unplayable above 200). So, while I've played and enjoyed a lot of GURPS, and would have been excited to play a variant that was a more fast playing tactical dungeon game, I don't feel like this is it.

Quote from: sureshot;1025566The other reason and one that fans of Gurps refuse to hear or admit is that the system is  not as popular as it once was imo. They can waste a million dollars on production values and it probably will not sell as well imo. As long as they keep marketing to Gurps fans and only them I don't think things will improve imo. I also agree with the poster and Gurps poor choice of IPs. Was there really that huge of a demand for Mars Attacks. They also list and probably keep losing market share to Savage Worlds and Fate.

As a representative fan of GURPS, I don't refuse to hear or admit that GURPS is not as popular as it once was. But as a fan/player/GM, it also isn't particularly my concern. I've always chosen and played games based on what I like, and when I see other games that I'm not interested in have more sales or players, I mostly shrug. GURPS seems to me like very different type of game from Savage Worlds of Fate, to the point that it seems like a strange idea to think they're dividing a market (except perhaps the market of people who buy games without having much idea what they're like beforehand, or who don't know what kind of RPG they'll like), except in that people who might prefer GURPS might never try it because they get exposed to other games instead.

But I also do feel like you're right that GURPS products are largely designed for people who like GURPS, and that there are few GURPS products well-suited to bringing in new players.

I also agree that Dungeon Fantasy seems to have an overly generic-and-generic-yet-specific setting which I wouldn't choose either. And I think it still looks pretty complex despite that, what with the high-point-level (therefore complex) characters, the template format, etc.

I'd think the way to get new GURPS players would be to have Powered By GURPS products that reduce the GURPS noise (complex characters and point systems and chargen calculations) more and present something that can be easily played without an experienced GURPS GM, and that showcases interesting mapped situations, because the mapped action is to me what the system does best, the main reason I choose it, and the thing it does that other systems don't do. Provide maps/counters so that it looks great and draws in players starting with the visual interest in seeing interesting play in action.

Maps and the cardboard pawns are great because they can be used with other games.

I think and I know Dungeon Fantasy is a much easier entry point for GURPS than the 4E line. I ran DF at two conventions here in Wisconsin and had players who have had never played GURPS or played years ago. Everybody was able to get in and play. Of course it's easier bellying up at a con than running a game at home. They even had fun with the two adventures included in the box.

I guess I just was so in the bubble I never was aware how little GURPS is played or known by people not already in the bubble. I don't think the GURPS names means anything to anybody that started playing RPGs with 3.x, 4x, or 5E. They just don't know.

Quote from: oggsmash;1021518Anyway, anyone else playing this?

I already have all of GURPS. Don't need to buy re-packaged merch from SJGames. I doubt anyone new to tabletop RPGs will buy it. It's target audience is the nostalgia purchaser. Kickstarters are all about nostalgia and fanboys.

Anyway, yes I play Dungeon Fantasy. Just not with GURPS anymore.

Skarg my criticism was not geared towards you it's just that no one wants to acknowledge the elephant in the room imo. Which is the complexity and crunchiness of the rules may keep some away imo. It's assumed it will fail if they even remotely try to simplify any part of the system. While changing nothing and expecting it to be somehow even more successful.

-They tried a new edition to fix some minor issues yet kept the complexity it seems to have done moderately well
-Better production values do not seem to be working either imo
-A emphasis on publishing lesser known IP such as Mar Attacks and Disworld. I can understand the second as a friend of mine who worked in a bookstore said the novels were popular. The first seems more a vanity project or maybe the rights for it were going cheap.  It kind of anger some fans who have been waiting years for Gurps Vehicles seeing those items get priority.
-Possibly doing what Pinnacle did with their Deadlands  rpg is have both a Gurps and a rules lite version published side by side.  

At this point I really don't know what they can do to drum up more interest in Gurps.

Update I missed the part about even Munchkin sales being affected and looks like Gurps is on the back burner for who knows how long until they can get Munchkin being profitable again. Boy did they get screwed on their translating the Port Royal card game.

They are launching a Munchkin CCG and I'm worried about that. Those games are so expensive.

Of course if you streamline GURPS too much you just get TFT which is going to be its own thing and likely quite successful in its own right.

However, there is a lot of multiplication and division in core GURPS.  Outside of purchasing levels of advantages, there is basic speed, base lift, parry, armor penetration, and damage type to consider.  For people who can't handle the math this is a huge barrier.  GURPS assumes you passed sixth grade math but for many these things are absolute barriers no matter how strange it may seem to the rest of us.

Quote from: sureshot;1025580...

At this point I really don't know what they can do to drum up more interest in Gurps.

....

First, I feel that the interest in GURPS doesn't need to be marketed or geared towards those looking for less crunch. I love GURPS because of the detail in it. It's why, when I go to other games, I miss that detail. Instead, GURPS should focus on a target demographic and continue to support that demo.

Second, GURPS could do WAY more to make it easier to organize, tweak and customize for any given game. It's a toolkit that supports microcosms, not genres. The game can literally be different between two tables running the same genre in the same setting. There can be a lot of moving parts to coral into "the game I want to run". GCA is clunky. GCS is too simple. http://www.gurpscalculator.com/DiceRoller is a great example of a modernizing the tools. It's why I support his Patreon.

Third, Dungeon Fantasy was the wrong direction! I complained about this from the beginning (insert Pundit like admonishment here for not following my sage advice...  :-D). People who want the detail available in GURPS don't need to play D&D. They have D&D. Or 20 odd clones and heartbreakers lovingly crafted to play D&D. Instead, what GURPS needs is ready to play, ready to run settings + adventures + pre-gen characters that SHOWCASE the awesome parts of GURPS. Include examples and walk-throughs with scenarios for social engineering, cultural familiarity, languages and the like. Showcase why one army uses polearms while another trains in Roman unit tactics. Demonstrate HOW having these details in a game make the game fun. I agree with your thoughts on the properties they licenced. Not necessary. Invent something unique and fun vs. something obscure. In my opinion, a fresh new thing would have greater appeal.

We (GURPS enthusiasts) don't need a "streamlined" GURPS. We need to teach the hobby about how WE play RPGs! ...and how and why we choose GURPS to do that.

I am super fan and enthusiast of tons of different games. I believe the variety is a good thing. You can find an RPG laser-tuned and 3D printed to your specifications. Story game stuff, light, fast, crunchy, tactical, imaginative, all the above... GURPS shouldn't have to transform itself to find fans. We (as GURPS fans) and SJGames (as the creators) need to do a better job of finding the people who WANT GURPS. We need to craft products that better serve the needs of GURPS players/GMs.