TheRPGSite

https://dnd.wizards.com/story/legend-of-drizzt

Scroll down to the section on Menzzo and click through the arrows. Looks like we're getting neutral and good drow retconned into the mighty Realms. We're getting Udadrow, Aevendrow, and Lorendrow (or "Greenshadow Elves"). Horrible names.

But....we knew drow were on the chopping block cause they're problematic for the sjw's

Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on May 21, 2021, 09:52:29 AM
We're getting Udadrow, Aevendrow, and Lorendrow (or "Greenshadow Elves"). Horrible names.

Those names sound like something you might find on tap at a FR microbrewery.

As usual, they want to be the trendsetters, not realizing the trail's already cut.

Good or at least neutral-aligned drow were a far minority but did exist in FR already, all the way back in 2E. Eilistraee was their patron, the sole goddess of the drow pantheon who wasn't a raging asshole and who had willingly gone with them so any drow who might decide to walk away from Lolth would have guidance.

It's the same stupid shit as the whole 'orcs shouldn't be always evil', never realizing Eberron already set that mark.

You know WOTC wants to remind everyone of the Drow Matriarchy.  I'm sure that's their favorite part of the whole damn thing. 

Down with the Patriarchy, long live the Matriarchy!!!

As long as poontang is still available, who really cares?

Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 21, 2021, 10:47:08 AM
As usual, they want to be the trendsetters, not realizing the trail's already cut.

Good or at least neutral-aligned drow were a far minority but did exist in FR already, all the way back in 2E. Eilistraee was their patron, the sole goddess of the drow pantheon who wasn't a raging asshole and who had willingly gone with them so any drow who might decide to walk away from Lolth would have guidance.

My group used to joke that every year, on the day he was venerated, Eilistraee met with all her followers in a pizza joint in the Realms (the location changed from year to year). Of course she was also the one who paid for the evening.

She had a crucial role in my 13 years long campaign inspired by the Iran-Contra scandal - only pulled by some Gods of Good. The other Gods severely underestimated her until it was too late.

Quote
It's the same stupid shit as the whole 'orcs shouldn't be always evil', never realizing Eberron already set that mark.

Even here the Forgotten Realms came first: there are some good orcs, followers of Eldath, up North in the Tortured Lands.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 21, 2021, 10:47:08 AM
Good or at least neutral-aligned drow were a far minority but did exist in FR already, all the way back in 2E. Eilistraee was their patron, the sole goddess of the drow pantheon who wasn't a raging asshole and who had willingly gone with them so any drow who might decide to walk away from Lolth would have guidance.

But but...  Eilistraee is a physical fit woman who constantly exposes her body and let her wild hair free.  That is fat shaming and we need more body positivity.

Mocking aside...  Eilistraee is pretty badass in her own right.  A perfectly good example of the feminine hero archetype.  A woman who does things normally given to heroic men, but she uses her feminine traits to save the day.  She is caring, nurturing, shows gratitude to her father's forgiveness, and yet shows sacrifice by taking up the drow curse so the drow can be redeemed.  Not to mention to priestesshood of Lolth, Eilistraee, is a satanic figure.  Which to good drow, Eilistraee, serves as a savior figure.  I wish Eilistraee was given more of a spot light, but knowing the WOTC devs they would only ruin her.  That is a shame indeed.

I'm not sure that the drow need an update to be woke.  It's dominated by females, enslaves the men, and tortures, kills, and murders anyone who opposes that order.  To me that sounds like an SJW's vision of the ideal future.

To be honest, I always had Eilistraee pegged as some basement-dweller's fantasy of 'hawt drow chick', what with the dancing naked and whatnot.

But then, that's not the problem here :D

Yeah, I remembered Eilistraee. I think the thing that might be different here is that pre-woke WotC all of the drow in the realms were nominally under Lloths thumb. But now, it seems to me anyway, that these new groups might not have had anything to do with the whole "drow pantheon" from the past. But....idk.

And I think this inforgraphic is kind of telling
https://gamerant.com/dungeons-and-dragons-infographic-2021/?utm_medium=Social-Distribution&utm_source=GR-FB-P&utm_campaign=GR-FB-P&fbclid=IwAR2gFcf2xfG89iNNYtwYxi5MozODa0KmuO7i94vn24KojbCmuDptB3FimWk
But I might be reading too much into it. But the age group I'm in (40+) really isn't their target audience anymore. Despite us supporting the company through those years. Again I might be over reacting.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 21, 2021, 06:38:57 PM
To be honest, I always had Eilistraee pegged as some basement-dweller's fantasy of 'hawt drow chick', what with the dancing naked and whatnot.

But then, that's not the problem here :D

That is not that much different to "normal" drow

(https://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/theory/race/gdq1-7.jpg)

Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 21, 2021, 10:47:08 AM
It's the same stupid shit as the whole 'orcs shouldn't be always evil', never realizing Eberron already set that mark.

Never realizing OD&D already set their work. Orcs in that could be neutral. Drow in BX were just Chaotic so like everything else in BX and OD&D they could be about anything depending on reactions. Just like everythigng else. Later books opened up tons of monsters for PC play.
By AD&D we had PC drow and dark elves.
2e threw the gates even wider.

You know. Thinking on this.

We always just assumed that Drow just meant any elf that worshiped Lolth.

WOTC could have gone that route and saved alot of effort.

Quote from: Omega on May 21, 2021, 07:24:50 PM
You know. Thinking on this.

We always just assumed that Drow just meant any elf that worshiped Lolth.

WOTC could have gone that route and saved alot of effort.

No. No. No.

Everyone knows twelve playable races of knife-ears are simply not enough.  88 races are rookie numbers.  They need to pump them up.

Quote from: Omega on May 21, 2021, 07:24:50 PM
You know. Thinking on this.

We always just assumed that Drow just meant any elf that worshiped Lolth.

WOTC could have gone that route and saved alot of effort.

What, kind of like how drow/dark elves in Dragonlance were just elves that 'fell from grace', very similar to the moredhel in Raymond Feist's Riftwar Saga?

Not saying it's a bad idea, mind you.

Quote from: Omega on May 21, 2021, 07:24:50 PM
You know. Thinking on this.

We always just assumed that Drow just meant any elf that worshiped Lolth.

WOTC could have gone that route and saved alot of effort.

But that contradicts previous background, doesn't it? Drizz't and a number of other NPCs didn't worship Lolth, but they were still called drow. And lots of people have had drow PCs who didn't worship Lolth, ever since 1st edition Unearthed Arcana when drow became a PC race option.

This is one of the reasons I like the incomplete games, like AD&D1e, Classic Traveller and so on - rules with no setting, or at most an implied setting. Because when you have a published setting it'll be warped by commercial (eg licensed ones, like the Firefly game which was based on the movie but not the tv series) or ideological nonsense.

But if you have your own setting then you can do whatever you want, like the Chinese bootleg toys - my favourite was the Thomas the Tank Engine Transformer. I don't want your stupid ideas, I have my own!

When did the drow become light purplish grey? Every image I've seen lately has this new color.

Quote from: SirFrog on May 22, 2021, 12:51:02 AM
When did the drow become light purplish grey? Every image I've seen lately has this new color.

Remember what I keep saying about how this woke cult is cyclic and what we are seeing now is nothing new? Well thats why there are purple drow because in the late 70s or early 90s version of this cult there was bitching about the drow being black and so we had a span of the purple and also  blue drow.

Quote from: Omega on May 22, 2021, 07:14:25 AM

Quote from: SirFrog on May 22, 2021, 12:51:02 AM
When did the drow become light purplish grey? Every image I've seen lately has this new color.

Hateful bigots at WotC believe that all people with dark skin are evil, therefore they are changing the Drow to no longer have dark skin.

It's weird how not only are dark skinned Drow stand-ins for Black people, but also Orcs are stand-ins for Black people. We're already starting to see a push to change demons & devils too, because reasonable people wouldn't stand up to these literally evil psychopaths.

Quote from: Zelen on May 22, 2021, 10:58:54 AM

Quote from: Omega on May 22, 2021, 07:14:25 AM

Quote from: SirFrog on May 22, 2021, 12:51:02 AM
When did the drow become light purplish grey? Every image I've seen lately has this new color.

Hateful bigots at WotC believe that all people with dark skin are evil, therefore they are changing the Drow to no longer have dark skin.

It's weird how not only are dark skinned Drow stand-ins for Black people, but also Orcs are stand-ins for Black people. We're already starting to see a push to change demons & devils too, because reasonable people wouldn't stand up to these literally evil psychopaths.

Amusing, but... I think it has less to do with 'omg we can't make them evil because they are black' and more because that vantablack skin is really hard to use in art and it's really fucking boring.

So yeah, there's a lot of sins to be laid at WOTC's feet but drow with purple/gray skin tones aren't quite one of them.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 22, 2021, 12:33:48 PM
Amusing, but... I think it has less to do with 'omg we can't make them evil because they are black' and more because that vantablack skin is really hard to use in art and it's really fucking boring.

So yeah, there's a lot of sins to be laid at WOTC's feet but drow with purple/gray skin tones aren't quite one of them.

I'm sure there's an element of that, but I doubt there would have been an art direction change if WotC didn't have their hateful religious zealotry in the mix.

FWIW I don't have a dog in this fight because no campaign I have ever played in or run has ever attempted to make use of Drow. The biggest exposure I have to these guys is in playing Baldur's Gate videogames and having read one Drizzt novel many years ago (I didn't even know it was actually D&D/Forgotten Realms).

The thing that I find objectionable is how this type of manipulation is going back and undermining the artistic and creative vision of people who made something that became organically popular. If I were R.A. Salvatore, for example, I'd be considering how to make WotC pay up for trying to rewrite important plot elements when Salvatore himself was probably the single most important creative vision for those plot elements.

There is a neat french comic called elves. In it, Dark Elves are all born with a Demon that drives them to evil, even the noblest of them.
Dark Elves don't even start as Dark Elves. Other elves are just randomly born with this capacity for violence and causing suffering. In addition, it also ties their life shorter than normal, mutating all Dark Elves into mindless mutant monsters (but immortal ones) eventually.

Its more of a curse that passes through bloodline than a species thing (And Dark Elves are loathe to reproduce because their lives suck). I believe that was the same case with the Original Drow.

Not sure why that had to be undone.

I'm not into dark elves, drow or any other D&D stuff, but even i've heard that the whole dark elf thing supposedly started with Elric Of Melnibone', is that true?

I also heard that Elric was the only member of his race that wasn't like totally evil, and he was....WHITE!!!! (AAAAIIIEEEEE! THE RACISM! IT BURNS US!)

Actually he was an albino with a weak metabolism, IIRC.

No i guess this means no stormbringer movie in today's world, i always wondered why they never made one. 

has rpg.net banned any mention of Moorcock and his works yet doe to his flagrant and blatant racism in making the only good member  of an evil race white? Have literary circles excommunicated moorcock and denounced all his works yet? i don't read or follow fantasy much at all, but being in games you can't help picking up references over the years and getting a little familiar with it all.

Quote from: The Thing on May 22, 2021, 05:58:58 PM
I'm not into dark elves, drow or any other D&D stuff, but even i've heard that the whole dark elf thing supposedly started with Elric Of Melnibone', is that true?

I also heard that Elric was the only member of his race that wasn't like totally evil, and he was....WHITE!!!! (AAAAIIIEEEEE! THE RACISM! IT BURNS US!)

Actually he was an albino with a weak metabolism, IIRC.

No i guess this means no stormbringer movie in today's world, i always wondered why they never made one. 

has rpg.net banned any mention of Moorcock and his works yet doe to his flagrant and blatant racism in making the only good member  of an evil race white? Have literary circles excommunicated moorcock and denounced all his works yet? i don't read or follow fantasy much at all, but being in games you can't help picking up references over the years and getting a little familiar with it all.

I've never heard of this being a thing, Moorcock being declared racist because of Elric's lack of pigmentation. Elric wasn't exactly good, however, despite being the protagonist of one of several of Moorcock's series about his Eternal Champions.

Quote from: Dropbear on May 22, 2021, 06:33:11 PM

Quote from: The Thing on May 22, 2021, 05:58:58 PM
I'm not into dark elves, drow or any other D&D stuff, but even i've heard that the whole dark elf thing supposedly started with Elric Of Melnibone', is that true?

I also heard that Elric was the only member of his race that wasn't like totally evil, and he was....WHITE!!!! (AAAAIIIEEEEE! THE RACISM! IT BURNS US!)

Actually he was an albino with a weak metabolism, IIRC.

No i guess this means no stormbringer movie in today's world, i always wondered why they never made one. 

has rpg.net banned any mention of Moorcock and his works yet doe to his flagrant and blatant racism in making the only good member  of an evil race white? Have literary circles excommunicated moorcock and denounced all his works yet? i don't read or follow fantasy much at all, but being in games you can't help picking up references over the years and getting a little familiar with it all.

I've never heard of this being a thing, Moorcock being declared racist because of Elric's lack of pigmentation. Elric wasn't exactly good, however, despite being the protagonist of one of several of Moorcock's series about his Eternal Champions.

i'm amazed the ultraleft hasn't gone after him yet. Yes it's ridiculous, but so is the ultraleft. I mean  sure elric was at best an antihero type, but he was the protagonist and white, making him 'racist' in the eyes of the ultraleft. He was also, frankly, the best of his people and again, WHITE!- hence RACIST!!!!

I guess they'll get to him sometime. But you know the old saying "What if they gave a war and nobody came?" What if the ultraleft screams "RACISM!" at Moorcock and his fandom ignores them?

Morcock's Elric and his Melniboneans probably have more of a creative lineage to Warhammer's Dark Elves than initially to D&D's drow. But there's been lots of cross pollination between Warhammer & D&D over the decades in the various concepts of the drow.

Personally, I greatly prefer Warhammer's dark elves, mostly because the popularity of Drizzt has made the concept of "good drow" in such demand that the drow have become weaksauce villains. 

As for D&D's alleged popularity, I find that "infographic" very laughable. Note it's a breakdown of the "D&D community", and that's whatever WotC wants that to mean.

Quote from: Jam The MF on May 21, 2021, 01:31:08 PM
You know WOTC wants to remind everyone of the Drow Matriarchy.  I'm sure that's their favorite part of the whole damn thing. 

Down with the Patriarchy, long live the Matriarchy!!!

As long as poontang is still available, who really cares?

I believe the argument against the Drow Matriarchy is that it's Evil and therefore some kind of knock against matriarchies.

Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on May 21, 2021, 06:53:13 PM
Yeah, I remembered Eilistraee. I think the thing that might be different here is that pre-woke WotC all of the drow in the realms were nominally under Lloths thumb. But now, it seems to me anyway, that these new groups might not have had anything to do with the whole "drow pantheon" from the past. But....idk.

And I think this inforgraphic is kind of telling
https://gamerant.com/dungeons-and-dragons-infographic-2021/?utm_medium=Social-Distribution&utm_source=GR-FB-P&utm_campaign=GR-FB-P&fbclid=IwAR2gFcf2xfG89iNNYtwYxi5MozODa0KmuO7i94vn24KojbCmuDptB3FimWk
But I might be reading too much into it. But the age group I'm in (40+) really isn't their target audience anymore. Despite us supporting the company through those years. Again I might be over reacting.

I like to think that good product has a wide appeal. I also think that at some point, the marketing tail wags the dog, and companies start making bone headed decisions.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on May 22, 2021, 02:01:17 PM
There is a neat french comic called elves. In it, Dark Elves are all born with a Demon that drives them to evil, even the noblest of them.
Dark Elves don't even start as Dark Elves. Other elves are just randomly born with this capacity for violence and causing suffering. In addition, it also ties their life shorter than normal, mutating all Dark Elves into mindless mutant monsters (but immortal ones) eventually.

Its more of a curse that passes through bloodline than a species thing (And Dark Elves are loathe to reproduce because their lives suck). I believe that was the same case with the Original Drow.

Not sure why that had to be undone.

That was not the case with the original drow. They have a mythic origin story as how they separated from other elves, but they are a subrace just like others. It's most explicitly the case as of 1e Unearthed Arcana in 1985, when drow were allowed as player characters. They are handled like any other race, just with their own special abilities.

There was no alignment restriction for PC drow, or explanation that good-aligned PC drow characters lost the demon - only that they were outcast from drow society.

Did WotC change the drow's backstory about being cursed with dark skin?

Quote from: The Thing on May 22, 2021, 09:20:38 PM
i'm amazed the ultraleft hasn't gone after him yet. Yes it's ridiculous, but so is the ultraleft. I mean  sure elric was at best an antihero type, but he was the protagonist and white, making him 'racist' in the eyes of the ultraleft. He was also, frankly, the best of his people and again, WHITE!- hence RACIST!!!!

I guess they'll get to him sometime. But you know the old saying "What if they gave a war and nobody came?" What if the ultraleft screams "RACISM!" at Moorcock and his fandom ignores them?

He is a weak albino. If someone screams against Elric just counterattack by randomly using "Body Shaming" and "Ableism" in your answer.

I actually met Moorcock back in the early '90s, at a book signing at the Forbidden Planet in London. During the Q&A someone asked if the relationship between Elric and Stormbringer was symbolic of Moorcock's battle against substance abuse (basically, without it you are weak and in pain and unable to act, but its use slowly destroys those who you love, your World and, at the end, yourself).

Moorcock refused this interpretation and said that, when he created Elric, he took Conan and, character trait by character trait, he created someone who was "the total opposite of the howardian hero"." Then he inserted Stormbringer in the equation.

Anyway, it is possible that Moorcock will be shielded from random woke strafings thanks to the fact that he strongly criticised the production of "authoritarian" fiction by certain canonical writers (i.e. R.A. Heinlein), and H.P. Lovecraft for "having antisemitic, misogynistic and extremely racist viewpoints that he wove into his short stories." This back in 1978, in his infamous (to some) essay "Starship Stormtroopers" (in it Moorcock basically flogs everybody, from Tolkien to Richard Adams and from Lovecraft to Ayn Rand. Not even Isaac Asimov is safe 🤣).

http://web.archive.org/web/20021224193414/http://flag.blackened.net/liberty/moorcock.html

Pretty sure moorcock is subversive enough and a pinko enough to be left alone for now.
Combined with his general anonymity.

He is high enough on the totem pole (and keeps his head down enough) it will be a while before the mob eats him.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on May 23, 2021, 12:14:03 PM
Pretty sure moorcock is subversive enough and a pinko enough to be left alone for now.
Combined with his general anonymity.

He is high enough on the totem pole (and keeps his head down enough) it will be a while before the mob eats him.

They already ate Rowling. Only a matter of time before they eat Octavia Butler because Lilith's Brood is transphobic (https://speculative.sunygeneseoenglish.org/2015/04/10/the-politics-of-it/).

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 23, 2021, 12:32:31 PMThey already ate Rowling.

High profile+speaking out, is why they targetted her.

They will all be targetted, im just saying why it will be a while before moorecock is.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on May 23, 2021, 12:41:16 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 23, 2021, 12:32:31 PMThey already ate Rowling.

High profile+speaking out, is why they targetted her.

They will all be targetted, im just saying why it will be a while before moorecock is.

I don't think that people like Michael Moorcock or Alan Moore can be "targeted". Someone like J.K. Rowling has a reputation and an image to maintain. If you attack Moorcock he will simply say "here we go again". Maybe he will be add "Oh, for the times when you were attacked for speaking against the Vietnam War! Alas, for the poor souls of today!"

And the above just to amuse his grandchildren, of course.

Quote from: Reckall on May 23, 2021, 01:27:52 PMI don't think that people like Michael Moorcock or Alan Moore can be "targeted".

Considering they thrashed other authors, they don't come off as the rebellious type to me. Or at least the kind to rebel against their 'side'.
I get more the impression that they are keeping their mouths shut and hoping this passes over them until after they die.

Because while JK Rowling has an image to maintain, she ultimately spoke up for her opinions and was surprised by the mob arrayed against her. Michael has yet to do something similar.

Quote from: Reckall on May 23, 2021, 12:06:54 PM

Quote from: The Thing on May 22, 2021, 09:20:38 PM
i'm amazed the ultraleft hasn't gone after him yet. Yes it's ridiculous, but so is the ultraleft. I mean  sure elric was at best an antihero type, but he was the protagonist and white, making him 'racist' in the eyes of the ultraleft. He was also, frankly, the best of his people and again, WHITE!- hence RACIST!!!!

I guess they'll get to him sometime. But you know the old saying "What if they gave a war and nobody came?" What if the ultraleft screams "RACISM!" at Moorcock and his fandom ignores them?

He is a weak albino. If someone screams against Elric just counterattack by randomly using "Body Shaming" and "Ableism" in your answer.

I actually met Moorcock back in the early '90s, at a book signing at the Forbidden Planet in London. During the Q&A someone asked if the relationship between Elric and Stormbringer was symbolic of Moorcock's battle against substance abuse (basically, without it you are weak and in pain and unable to act, but its use slowly destroys those who you love, your World and, at the end, yourself).

Moorcock refused this interpretation and said that, when he created Elric, he took Conan and, character trait by character trait, he created someone who was "the total opposite of the howardian hero"." Then he inserted Stormbringer in the equation.

Anyway, it is possible that Moorcock will be shielded from random woke strafings thanks to the fact that he strongly criticised the production of "authoritarian" fiction by certain canonical writers (i.e. R.A. Heinlein), and H.P. Lovecraft for "having antisemitic, misogynistic and extremely racist viewpoints that he wove into his short stories." This back in 1978, in his infamous (to some) essay "Starship Stormtroopers" (in it Moorcock basically flogs everybody, from Tolkien to Richard Adams and from Lovecraft to Ayn Rand. Not even Isaac Asimov is safe 🤣).

http://web.archive.org/web/20021224193414/http://flag.blackened.net/liberty/moorcock.html

Oof! That was a turgid spiel. I actually haven't read any Moorcock, but I doubt his writings would survive a similar examination.

SST is extremely vague and it's difficult to determine what the Terran Federation is actually like. It's very progressive in terms of how racial differences, gender, and disabilities are treated, but the political tracts feel like regurgitated and cynical propaganda.

Also, if you count every instance of hypnosis mentioned then you can contrive a theory that the Federation uses rampant hypnosis (which isn't an effective argument, as hypnosis doesn't work in real life).

Starship Troopers is more a response to beurocracy than a desire for authoritarian control. The idea/hope is that if you want to be a politician or demand to have policies implemented you need to do 3 years' worth of community service first. It just so happens the events are happening during a war, so community service entails military service. If you where unfit for service, they would find something else for you to do.

Generally, yes.

Heinlein's politics and social views in general were all over the map.

My thought was that to hold any kind of office or vote in any initiative beyond 'basic local', you had to go through a term of service. In times of war, this was generally in the military, but I could easily see forestry ranger positions as a peacetime option.

Also, there are sharp and severe penalties for committing crimes in the society of SST. Caning/flogging, indentured servitude, and yes, executions for felonious acts against one's fellow citizens/civilians.

The corporal punishment bit is so outdated. Studies have shown that severity of punishment doesn't deter crime, higher risk of getting caught does. That's why increasing the size of the police force doing patrolling reduces the crime rate.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 23, 2021, 06:33:14 PM
Generally, yes.

Heinlein's politics and social views in general were all over the map.

I mean I don't agree with all of them. I just feel he is unfairly pigeonholed as a fascist or a warmonger.
When in the book it's stated that even somebody quadriplegic and blind would find something to do.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 23, 2021, 06:44:53 PM
The corporal punishment bit is so outdated. Studies have shown that severity of punishment doesn't deter crime, higher risk of getting caught does.

It's a principle/philosophy thing more than social science thing. I really liked CS Lewises lecture about crime and rehabilitation about this.

But to the main question: Will the next book be drow? Probably not. They are too understaffed to have time for a dedicated splat of that sort.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 23, 2021, 06:44:53 PM
The corporal punishment bit is so outdated. Studies have shown that severity of punishment doesn't deter crime, higher risk of getting caught does. That's why increasing the size of the police force doing patrolling reduces the crime rate.

Greetings!

Whatever "studies" you must be reading are flawed. Common sense tells you that in a society where the justice is pussy coddling and weak, a rational person is more tempted to engage in crime. In a justice system where a criminal is severely flogged and fucking strung up to swing high for everyone to see, that people are less inclined to engage in crime.

Yes, of course a higher chance of getting caught plays a role--but if the punishment is pussy codling, who cares if you get caught?

Stretching the criminal's stupid ass on the jig is not only good for showing the population the price of crime, but also demonstrates that justice will be swift, severe, and ruthless. It also ensures that the criminal doesn't repeat offend--as we know much of the crime is perpetuated over and over again by the same small percentage of evil, dysfunctional, morons.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on May 23, 2021, 07:00:01 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 23, 2021, 06:44:53 PM
The corporal punishment bit is so outdated. Studies have shown that severity of punishment doesn't deter crime, higher risk of getting caught does. That's why increasing the size of the police force doing patrolling reduces the crime rate.

Greetings!

Whatever "studies" you must be reading are flawed. Common sense tells you that in a society where the justice is pussy coddling and weak, a rational person is more tempted to engage in crime. In a justice system where a criminal is severely flogged and fucking strung up to swing high for everyone to see, that people are less inclined to engage in crime.

Yes, of course a higher chance of getting caught plays a role--but if the punishment is pussy codling, who cares if you get caught?

Stretching the criminal's stupid ass on the jig is not only good for showing the population the price of crime, but also demonstrates that justice will be swift, severe, and ruthless. It also ensures that the criminal doesn't repeat offend--as we know much of the crime is perpetuated over and over again by the same small percentage of evil, dysfunctional, morons.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

What social science studies reveal about human psychology is often at odds with our "common sense".

If what you're saying is true, then we would expect developed countries with more lenient justice systems to have worse crime compared to the USA. Is that what we see?

According to Encyclopedia Brittanica:

QuoteThe claim that corporal punishment is an especially effective deterrent has been refuted by empirical evidence, however, which shows that offenders who are punished by corporal means are actually slightly more likely to commit further crimes than are those punished by imprisonment.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 23, 2021, 07:28:19 PM

Quote from: SHARK on May 23, 2021, 07:00:01 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 23, 2021, 06:44:53 PM
The corporal punishment bit is so outdated. Studies have shown that severity of punishment doesn't deter crime, higher risk of getting caught does. That's why increasing the size of the police force doing patrolling reduces the crime rate.

Greetings!

Whatever "studies" you must be reading are flawed. Common sense tells you that in a society where the justice is pussy coddling and weak, a rational person is more tempted to engage in crime. In a justice system where a criminal is severely flogged and fucking strung up to swing high for everyone to see, that people are less inclined to engage in crime.

Yes, of course a higher chance of getting caught plays a role--but if the punishment is pussy codling, who cares if you get caught?

Stretching the criminal's stupid ass on the jig is not only good for showing the population the price of crime, but also demonstrates that justice will be swift, severe, and ruthless. It also ensures that the criminal doesn't repeat offend--as we know much of the crime is perpetuated over and over again by the same small percentage of evil, dysfunctional, morons.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

What social science studies reveal about human psychology is often at odds with our "common sense".

If what you're saying is true, then we would expect developed countries with more lenient justice systems to have worse crime compared to the USA. Is that what we see?

According to Encyclopedia Brittanica:

QuoteThe claim that corporal punishment is an especially effective deterrent has been refuted by empirical evidence, however, which shows that offenders who are punished by corporal means are actually slightly more likely to commit further crimes than are those punished by imprisonment.

The replication crisis called; it wants your bullshit statistics back...
https://ucsdnews.ucsd.edu/pressrelease/a-new-replication-crisis-research-that-is-less-likely-be-true-is-cited-more

Moorcock is actually pretty obscure outside of certain circles.  There's not much social capital to spend there.  Maybe if they'd made that Elric movie.  Oh well, he always was pretty full of himself.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on May 23, 2021, 07:36:10 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 23, 2021, 07:28:19 PM

Quote from: SHARK on May 23, 2021, 07:00:01 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 23, 2021, 06:44:53 PM
The corporal punishment bit is so outdated. Studies have shown that severity of punishment doesn't deter crime, higher risk of getting caught does. That's why increasing the size of the police force doing patrolling reduces the crime rate.

Greetings!

Whatever "studies" you must be reading are flawed. Common sense tells you that in a society where the justice is pussy coddling and weak, a rational person is more tempted to engage in crime. In a justice system where a criminal is severely flogged and fucking strung up to swing high for everyone to see, that people are less inclined to engage in crime.

Yes, of course a higher chance of getting caught plays a role--but if the punishment is pussy codling, who cares if you get caught?

Stretching the criminal's stupid ass on the jig is not only good for showing the population the price of crime, but also demonstrates that justice will be swift, severe, and ruthless. It also ensures that the criminal doesn't repeat offend--as we know much of the crime is perpetuated over and over again by the same small percentage of evil, dysfunctional, morons.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

What social science studies reveal about human psychology is often at odds with our "common sense".

If what you're saying is true, then we would expect developed countries with more lenient justice systems to have worse crime compared to the USA. Is that what we see?

According to Encyclopedia Brittanica:

QuoteThe claim that corporal punishment is an especially effective deterrent has been refuted by empirical evidence, however, which shows that offenders who are punished by corporal means are actually slightly more likely to commit further crimes than are those punished by imprisonment.

The replication crisis called; it wants your bullshit statistics back...
https://ucsdnews.ucsd.edu/pressrelease/a-new-replication-crisis-research-that-is-less-likely-be-true-is-cited-more

That doesn't refute the statement. What is your peer-reviewed empirical evidence that corporal and/or capital punishment reduce crime?

Let's try to drag this kicking and screaming back on topic.

Will the next WOTC D&D book be about woke drow? I think the woke part is a foregone conclusion. The question there is how woke.

The unadrow will be TERFs?

  The real question is, how will the Matriarchy react when the Drow males start using magic to identify as female to improve their position in society?

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 23, 2021, 07:54:15 PM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on May 23, 2021, 07:36:10 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 23, 2021, 07:28:19 PM

Quote from: SHARK on May 23, 2021, 07:00:01 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 23, 2021, 06:44:53 PM
The corporal punishment bit is so outdated. Studies have shown that severity of punishment doesn't deter crime, higher risk of getting caught does. That's why increasing the size of the police force doing patrolling reduces the crime rate.

Greetings!

Whatever "studies" you must be reading are flawed. Common sense tells you that in a society where the justice is pussy coddling and weak, a rational person is more tempted to engage in crime. In a justice system where a criminal is severely flogged and fucking strung up to swing high for everyone to see, that people are less inclined to engage in crime.

Yes, of course a higher chance of getting caught plays a role--but if the punishment is pussy codling, who cares if you get caught?

Stretching the criminal's stupid ass on the jig is not only good for showing the population the price of crime, but also demonstrates that justice will be swift, severe, and ruthless. It also ensures that the criminal doesn't repeat offend--as we know much of the crime is perpetuated over and over again by the same small percentage of evil, dysfunctional, morons.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

What social science studies reveal about human psychology is often at odds with our "common sense".

If what you're saying is true, then we would expect developed countries with more lenient justice systems to have worse crime compared to the USA. Is that what we see?

According to Encyclopedia Brittanica:

QuoteThe claim that corporal punishment is an especially effective deterrent has been refuted by empirical evidence, however, which shows that offenders who are punished by corporal means are actually slightly more likely to commit further crimes than are those punished by imprisonment.

The replication crisis called; it wants your bullshit statistics back...
https://ucsdnews.ucsd.edu/pressrelease/a-new-replication-crisis-research-that-is-less-likely-be-true-is-cited-more

That doesn't refute the statement. What is your peer-reviewed empirical evidence that corporal and/or capital punishment reduce crime?

Greetings!

Well, BCT, as a historian, I refute these worthless, corrupt "studies" from my own analysis of history. HISTORY demonstrates that being vigilant, strict, and strong on crime creates a better, safer, happier society. Conversely, being a pussy cucked society that coddles criminals creates nothing but more chaos, mayhem, and tears.

In keeping with the SJW trend, the Drow will continue to be watered down and pussified, and made "misunderstood" instead of wicked, corrupt, and evil. So tragic what WOTC is doing, and likely to do more so.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

   As for a capital and corporal punishment system being less likely to discourage crime....Were Singapore, Saudi Arabia, and Qatar in those studies?  To link it back to Drow, I would imagine they have incredibly harsh punishments to keep a Chaotic Evil society functioning (which never made sense to me given the level of organization they seem to have when they have to get things done).   As to that, if elves trend Chaotic and Good, wouldn't their opposites trend towards Lawful and Evil, rather than Chaotic Evil?   I know the whole layout from the G series all the way to Q1 was a long series of adventures to find who started a large "organization" across several dimensions as an invasion effort by making alliances and deals.   That is NOT the act of Chaos, so it never made sense to me the Drow, and Lolth are CE.  They seem to act a whole lot more Lawful Evil. 

Quote from: oggsmash on May 23, 2021, 08:47:20 PM
   As for a capital and corporal punishment system being less likely to discourage crime....Were Singapore, Saudi Arabia, and Qatar in those studies?  To link it back to Drow, I would imagine they have incredibly harsh punishments to keep a Chaotic Evil society functioning (which never made sense to me given the level of organization they seem to have when they have to get things done).   As to that, if elves trend Chaotic and Good, wouldn't their opposites trend towards Lawful and Evil, rather than Chaotic Evil?   I know the whole layout from the G series all the way to Q1 was a long series of adventures to find who started a large "organization" across several dimensions as an invasion effort by making alliances and deals.   That is NOT the act of Chaos, so it never made sense to me the Drow, and Lolth are CE.  They seem to act a whole lot more Lawful Evil.

These would be the same drow that have priestesses wielding snake-headed whips that deal intense pain to those struck. Those drow.

As so often I really end up just shaking my head.

You think Drow are problematic?  Just drop them entirely.

You don't have to agonise over whether fictional creations from 40 years are ok by moderrn standards if you just make new stuff.

The best thing the SRD ever did for the OSR was free them from D&D 'Canon', and force people to create their own things, and not just keep using the same ideas endlessly.

I don't get how modern fandom is both so determined to update stuff and yet at the same time so stultifyingly tied to the weight of tradition.

The funny thing is that, in AD&D Drow were so much cooler than the other elves and were generally higher level and equipped with adamantium weapons and armor that disintegrated in sun-light.  They were practically a fan-wank insert from the very start.  So, I always wonder, was there really ever a point when the Drow were unpopular or presented as less cool than white skinned races?  Probably during the second edition scrubbing of anything offensive to people who didn't buy TSR's products.

Sure there were a couple Drow painted as sexy Africans on a cover or two in that period of time but when Gygax said "black skinned" that ain't what he meant.

Quote from: SirFrog on May 22, 2021, 12:51:02 AM
When did the drow become light purplish grey? Every image I've seen lately has this new color.

It's the new art direction for the Drow WOTC has taken. From here on in the Drow are all light purplish grey for all time.

To be honest, I really prefer it to the all black look.

It is unfortunate that it is being done for woke reasons, not just because it looks better.

Quote from: Zelen on May 22, 2021, 02:00:05 PM
...
The thing that I find objectionable is how this type of manipulation is going back and undermining the artistic and creative vision of people who made something that became organically popular. If I were R.A. Salvatore, for example, I'd be considering how to make WotC pay up for trying to rewrite important plot elements when light purplish grey Salvatore himself was probably the single most important creative vision for those plot elements.

No need to worry about Salvatore, he is being taken care of.

All this month WOTC is doing a "Summer of Drizzt".
https://www.thegamer.com/dungeons-dragons-kicks-off-summer-of-drizzt-with-new-animated-short/

He and Ed Greenwood have always been down with whatever retcon WOTC wants to do.

They have both taken that WOTC ticket long ago.

Quote from: TJS on May 23, 2021, 09:22:50 PM
...
You think Drow are problematic?  Just drop them entirely.

You don't have to agonise over whether fictional creations from 40 years are ok by moderrn standards if you just make new stuff.
...
I don't get how modern fandom is both so determined to update stuff and yet at the same time so stultifyingly tied to the weight of tradition.

You need to remember that these people do not know how to create anything.

They are parasites of legacy IP, that they then subvert to their own ends.

Every time they try to push something 100% original it flops. Nobody wants it.

They can only attract eyeballs by subverting what is already popular.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on May 23, 2021, 03:21:23 AM

I believe the argument against the Drow Matriarchy is that it's Evil and therefore some kind of knock against matriarchies.

I have witnessed this very argument posted out in the wild on ENWorld.

They can't even stand that a make believe fantasy race might be showing "Women" in a bad light...

Quote from: Ratman_tf on May 23, 2021, 04:40:46 PM

Oof! That was a turgid spiel. I actually haven't read any Moorcock, but I doubt his writings would survive a similar examination.

Moorcock is a typical Marxist subversive hack, and a Western Civilization hating SJW before the term SJW was coined.

He is protected.

There is a reason his books have been in continual print when everyone else of his era, and even R. E. Howard's Conan stories, have gone out of print at one time or another.

I'll just come out and say it: Elric fucking sucks.

I tried to read Elric of Melnibone I really did.

Ohhh, so sickly emo-albino that nobody understands, with magic sword that gives oh so cool powerz, but I'm doooooomed...

Fuck off.


Reckall's post sums up Moorcock perfectly:

Quote from: Reckall on May 23, 2021, 12:06:54 PM
...
Moorcock... said that, when he created Elric, he took Conan and, character trait by character trait, he created someone who was "the total opposite of the howardian hero".  ...

He created Elric because Conan repulsed him.

That is all you need to know about Moorcock as a man.

Quote from: David Johansen on May 23, 2021, 07:48:36 PM
Moorcock is actually pretty obscure outside of certain circles.  There's not much social capital to spend there.  Maybe if they'd made that Elric movie.  Oh well, he always was pretty full of himself.

He is full of hubris because that is all he has.

He knows deep down in his little gamma heart of hearts that his name will never be spoken of with the same love as R.E. Howard.

And he damn sure knows he is not worthy to so much as kiss a random footprint in the dirt that Tolkien made as he walked down a path in the English countryside.

Quote from: Jaeger on May 24, 2021, 04:34:38 AM
He is full of hubris because that is all he has.

He knows deep down in his little gamma heart of hearts that his name will never be spoken of with the same love as R.E. Howard.

And he damn sure knows he is not worthy to so much as kiss a random footprint in the dirt that Tolkien made as he walked down a path in the English countryside.

Nothing to do with Drow, but....

Michael Moorcock was an SJW before the first SJW SJW'd, and was (still is?) a bad writer to boot. I liked both Lord of the Rings & the Elric saga when I was 9, but on adult re-visits found that only one of those was readable, and it sure as shit wasn't Elric.

And that was the best thing he ever did, and he threw it under the bus *years* ago, in prophetic 'subverting fan expectations' style, to the disgust of 12-year old me, who still sorta had a soft spot for the albino :/

Oddly, some bullshit happened to Moorcock recently where he got kicked off Facebook, I have no idea why, so maybe his old school superlib credentials don't protect him from 'cancellation.' I'm not sure anyone would know or care if it happened though.

I know that the mere fact that Moorcock is a fairly radical lefty is enough for most people on this forum to convict him of wrongthink themselves but...

While he may have attacked Tolkien and disliked his politics he never called for him to be recalled from publication or tried to stop other people from reading Tolkien and judging his work for themselves.

Some here would do to remember that distinction before calling him an 'SJW'.  After all, it's kind of important as it's really the only claim most of the right wing ideologues on this forum have to being better than the 'SJWs'.

(I have never heard him say he 'detested Howard', only that he wanted to create an anti-Conan.  God knows the world didn't need any more Thongor's or Braks, or other Conan imitations so obviously the anti-Conan was a more successful and memorable root to take).

Also Moorcock isn't really being cancelled because he doesn't have any input into any major fandom franchises.  If he were to write a Star Wars novel you bet he would be a candidate for cancellation.  People either get cancelled because they have power that people want to wrest from them, or because they're up and coming people at vulnerable points in their career and easily bullied.  Moocock is neither.

Quote from: Jaeger on May 24, 2021, 04:34:38 AM
Moorcock is a typical Marxist subversive hack, and a Western Civilization hating SJW before the term SJW was coined.

Marxist, maybe (Moorcock defines himself as an "Anarchist Pragmatist"), but... hack? Even those who disagree with his dissing of basically anything under the sun (if you are not H.G. Wells, Alfred Bester or Alan Moore) recognise his talent in writing.

Gwydion M. Williams, who demolished Moorcock's opinions in "Defending Tolkien Against Michael Moorcock's Condemnation - Cock-and-Bull about Epic Fantasy" recognises that:

"Moorcock is a good writer, and one might have hoped that he would give some insights into what it that makes a good story work. Or perhaps he would provide some fresh and original insight into some well-known tales. Unfortunately, he provides very little of this. He gives you opinions, but no reasons."

Quote
I'll just come out and say it: Elric fucking sucks.

I tried to read Elric of Melnibone I really did.

Ohhh, so sickly emo-albino that nobody understands, with magic sword that gives oh so cool powerz, but I'm doooooomed...

Fuck off.

Pssst... I'll let you to be part of a secret: no one forces you to like Elric. You can sleep peacefully  ;)

Quote
Reckall's post sums up Moorcock perfectly:

Quote from: Reckall on May 23, 2021, 12:06:54 PM
...
Moorcock... said that, when he created Elric, he took Conan and, character trait by character trait, he created someone who was "the total opposite of the howardian hero".  ...

He created Elric because Conan repulsed him.

That is all you need to know about Moorcock as a man.

Well, no. That's something you need to know Elric as a character. It doesn't even tell us anything about Corum or Hawkmoon - let alone Moorcock. The most that it can tell you about the writer is what that question asked: for sure the parallels between drug use and the relationship Elric has with Stormbringer are eerie, even if Moorcock refused them.

And that Elric was the most successful among Moorcock's creations may at most tell you something about the public - with the ironic fact that a lot of players of the Stormbringer RPG included in their campaigns the Lovecraftian Mythos (being CoC about 80% compatible with Stormbringer). The horror!  ;D

Quote
He is full of hubris because that is all he has.

He knows deep down in his little gamma heart of hearts that his name will never be spoken of with the same love as R.E. Howard.

And he damn sure knows he is not worthy to so much as kiss a random footprint in the dirt that Tolkien made as he walked down a path in the English countryside.

I do seem to understand that you don't like Moorcock.

I actually do, even if, in his life, he wasted a lot of good ideas with shoddy, slapdash writing - because he had to pay the bills. If his vision of the World was 180° from Tolkien's, good for us. I like everything.

Quote from: TJS on May 24, 2021, 07:55:00 AM
While he may have attacked Tolkien and disliked his politics he never called for him to be recalled from publication or tried to stop other people from reading Tolkien and judging his work for themselves.

Moorcock met both Tolkien and C.S. Lewis in person and he always pointed out how he has fond memories of them. It is the contents of their works that he disagrees with, not the authors themselves.

And you are right: I don't remember a single case where Moorcock called for censorship. He may have denounced Campbell and his "Astounding Stories" magazine as "crypto-fascist" (just one among his many rants) but AFAIK he never called for the "cancellation" of anything (which puts him head and shoulders above any current "hysteria du-jour" IMHO).

I don't hate Moorcock, but he has always seemed like an intolerant shithead (when he's not busy being crazy or whatever the fuck else). He didn't have the opportunity to 'cancel' anyone, and now he's irrelevant, and if he gets kicked off Facebook nobody cares other than some folks into Elric erotica or whatever. I'm not so sure he wouldn't do that type of thing if he got the chance, but he's not in that position, he's in the 'getting kicked off Facebook for reason nobody knows' position.

I think what links him to the new breed of leftist scold is the trashing of iconic characters, in this case, his own character. Like, every book that I read after the Elric ones, was, some kind of crapping on Elric. That was kind of alternated with milking Elric with other diluted versions of Elric.

So he seems SJW'ish in the sense that as an artist, he has very little to contribute in terms of being an actual artist, in his case, presumably a fiction writer, but lots of stuff to contribute in terms of 'deconstruction' and telling everybody else how they're wrong and racist and....whatever.

Quote from: yancy on May 24, 2021, 08:24:56 AM
I don't hate Moorcock, but he has always seemed like an intolerant shithead (when he's not busy being crazy or whatever the fuck else). He didn't have the opportunity to 'cancel' anyone, and now he's irrelevant, and if he gets kicked off Facebook nobody cares other than some folks into Elric erotica or whatever. I'm not so sure he wouldn't do that type of thing if he got the chance, but he's not in that position, he's in the 'getting kicked off Facebook for reason nobody knows' position.

I think what links him to the new breed of leftist scold is the trashing of iconic characters, in this case, his own character. Like, every book that I read after the Elric ones, was, some kind of crapping on Elric. That was kind of alternated with milking Elric with other diluted versions of Elric.

So he seems SJW'ish in the sense that as an artist, he has very little to contribute in terms of being an actual artist, in his case, presumably a fiction writer, but lots of stuff to contribute in terms of 'deconstruction' and telling everybody else how they're wrong and racist and....whatever.

I really miss Harlan Ellison at times like this.

Moorcock is not a cancel culture junkie in the modern sense, no. I consider him a progenitor of the current mob mentality though. And a person that subverts for the sole sake of subversion, which in my mind is always a hateful reason for creation.
Same reason I can't stand George "What's his tax policy" Martin.

Anyway, I think I have said all I have said on the guy.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on May 24, 2021, 10:09:17 AM
Moorcock is not a cancel culture junkie in the modern sense, no. I consider him a progenitor of the current mob mentality though. And a person that subverts for the sole sake of subversion, which in my mind is always a hateful reason for creation.
Same reason I can't stand George "What's his tax policy" Martin.

Anyway, I think I have said all I have said on the guy.

Did Martin even explore tax policy in ASOIAF?

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 24, 2021, 10:40:09 AMDid Martin even explore tax policy in ASOIAF?

No |:(

Nor did he go into all the nonsensical worldbuilding elements he added. I get the distinct impression the man is just waiting to die so he doesn't have to wrap up his story because he realized it's leading to a deeply unsatisfying conclusion. While the TV show botched the execution, I don't really believe that he has any real good ideas behind it all.

That's the problem with making stories based on hate and contrarianism. Subverting and tearing down is easy. Building up is hard.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on May 24, 2021, 11:34:43 AM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 24, 2021, 10:40:09 AMDid Martin even explore tax policy in ASOIAF?

No |:(

Nor did he go into all the nonsensical worldbuilding elements he added. I get the distinct impression the man is just waiting to die so he doesn't have to wrap up his story because he realized it's leading to a deeply unsatisfying conclusion. While the TV show botched the execution, I don't really believe that he has any real good ideas behind it all.

That's the problem with making stories based on hate and contrarianism. Subverting and tearing down is easy. Building up is hard.

That's why I restrict myself to writing short stories.

One thing I will say about Moorcock and Martin. They actually made their own stuff instead of trying to infiltrate and "improve" existing properties.

I saw an ad for the new Drow today and I must admit that I do like the thought of adding some extra Drow into the mix.

Now Forgotten Realms will have extra evil Snow Drow and evil Jungle Drow to add to the mix of the usual Drow suspects.

Soon I will have my 88 different types of Elves.....soon.

drow's a good possibility but this is a golden opportunity for james mendez hodes to turn his orc complaints into a real magnum opus, feels like a dark horse contender

I always found it strange that the Fantasy race that's least likely to have this kind of subdivision, since Elves are almost always described as extremely long-lived and few in number, somehow also has hundreds of different subpopulations. No one ever seems to sit down and think that if you're describing a subrace of a subrace of a subrace that you might actually be talking about a group of ~100 and that you don't really need to have a unique race or race template for every single Elf.

Quote from: Zelen on May 25, 2021, 12:56:35 AM
I always found it strange that the Fantasy race that's least likely to have this kind of subdivision, since Elves are almost always described as extremely long-lived and few in number, somehow also has hundreds of different subpopulations.

A neat idea I heard is that Elves naturally soak in their environments. Put elves in a swamp and in a few generations you get swamp elves. Same stuff with Deserts or even underwater. They are not so much a sub-species as a regional variant.

As such they could interbreed without distilling the species, as its dependant on location, not bloodline.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on May 25, 2021, 01:15:27 AM
A neat idea I heard is that Elves naturally soak in their environments. Put elves in a swamp and in a few generations you get swamp elves. Same stuff with Deserts or even underwater. They are not so much a sub-species as a regional variant.

As such they could interbreed without distilling the species, as its dependant on location, not bloodline.

I'd love if the core Elf race just had a flexible environment feature and we could dispense with the millions of Elf subtypes. But we all know the people who want infinite Elves won't stop there.

There's basically only three kinds of elves: high elves, wood elves, and dark elves. Everything else is just a variation on that.

Drow have always been problematic (in the Pre-woke sense as in "causes problems") because they trigger something in the Western mind that I like to call for lack of a better term, the "White Knight Effect."

You can write a character who is male.  Describe them as ugly, handsome or beautiful, doesn't matter.  Your players will jump on a male BBEG while he's down and chop him into pieces the size of croutons without a second thought.   They will do this no matter how sympathetic the character is.  No matter how much he might have reasons for what he does. Your players recognize that anyone willing to do the things that a BBEG is capable of doing is simply too dangerous.

Make the villain an attractive woman, however and you instantly short circuit all reasoning.  No matter how vile and sociopathic this evil woman has proven herself to be, your players will tie themselves in knots to justify letting her go at best or at worst actually justifying and excusing her evil acts.  The default Drow mold: and exotic society dominated by scantily clad, dark-skinned exotic women, hits all of the White Knight buttons like a godsdamned jackhammer.

I got a wonderful demonstration of this effect firsthand in my Cyberpunk RED campaign.  My PCs were tasked with hunting a serial killer whose "work" had ended up on the XBD market.  One of the strongest leads the PCs had was this XBD of the killer's crimes. So they went to hunt down a BD seller who was rumored to have a recording of one of the serial killer's crimes.   They found the dealer to be a fat, greasy creep living out of the back of a van.  The PCs were only to happy to torture him to find out who sold him the BD.  The source of these BDs turned out to be a team of 2 sisters who had stolen trophy BDs from the killer and were editing and selling them.  Now my PCs had been only too happy to brutally murder the man, they literally mag-dumped a 10mm SMG into his chest and point-blank range.  However, the instant the criminals were young attractive women suddenly it was a moral issue.  You can't do nasty things to women, that's wrong.  Now that attractive women are involved suddenly we have to be better.

As tempting as it is to blame SJWs for this, the White Knight effect absolutely pre-dates the SJW invasion of nerd media.  This has been a specfically American hang up for a long time.  The multi-decade obsession with "redeeming" Drow and Succubi should be proof enough of this as is the contrasting treatment of men vs women villains in most media.

If SJWs can be blamed for anything, it's massively accelerating this trend. Just check out "Cruella" a movie that attempts to justify the actions of a woman who wanted to make a fur coat by skinning puppies if you need proof.

This is very much an artifact of Anglosphere culture.  I've recently been on a Manga and Eurocomics kick: reading Berserk, the Incal, the Metabarons and Pepe Moreno's Rebel.  Japanese and Spaniards do not have the same hangups, it seems.

Quote from: Torque2100 on May 25, 2021, 09:08:44 AM
Drow have always been problematic (in the Pre-woke sense as in "causes problems") because they trigger something in the Western mind that I like to call for lack of a better term, the "White Knight Effect."

You can write a character who is male.  Describe them as ugly, handsome or beautiful, doesn't matter.  Your players will jump on a male BBEG while he's down and chop him into pieces the size of croutons without a second thought.   They will do this no matter how sympathetic the character is.  No matter how much he might have reasons for what he does. Your players recognize that anyone willing to do the things that a BBEG is capable of doing is simply too dangerous.

Make the villain an attractive woman, however and you instantly short circuit all reasoning.  No matter how vile and sociopathic this evil woman has proven herself to be, your players will tie themselves in knots to justify letting her go at best or at worst actually justifying and excusing her evil acts.  The default Drow mold: and exotic society dominated by scantily clad, dark-skinned exotic women, hits all of the White Knight buttons like a godsdamned jackhammer.

I got a wonderful demonstration of this effect firsthand in my Cyberpunk RED campaign.  My PCs were tasked with hunting a serial killer whose "work" had ended up on the XBD market.  One of the strongest leads the PCs had was this XBD of the killer's crimes. So they went to hunt down a BD seller who was rumored to have a recording of one of the serial killer's crimes.   They found the dealer to be a fat, greasy creep living out of the back of a van.  The PCs were only to happy to torture him to find out who sold him the BD.  The source of these BDs turned out to be a team of 2 sisters who had stolen trophy BDs from the killer and were editing and selling them.  Now my PCs had been only too happy to brutally murder the man, they literally mag-dumped a 10mm SMG into his chest and point-blank range.  However, the instant the criminals were young attractive women suddenly it was a moral issue.  You can't do nasty things to women, that's wrong.  Now that attractive women are involved suddenly we have to be better.

As tempting as it is to blame SJWs for this, the White Knight effect absolutely pre-dates the SJW invasion of nerd media.  This has been a specfically American hang up for a long time.  The multi-decade obsession with "redeeming" Drow and Succubi should be proof enough of this as is the contrasting treatment of men vs women villains in most media.

If SJWs can be blamed for anything, it's massively accelerating this trend. Just check out "Cruella" a movie that attempts to justify the actions of a woman who wanted to make a fur coat by skinning puppies if you need proof.

This is very much an artifact of Anglosphere culture.  I've recently been on a Manga and Eurocomics kick: reading Berserk, the Incal, the Metabarons and Pepe Moreno's Rebel.  Japanese and Spaniards do not have the same hangups, it seems.

Hm. I was going to argue this, but then I remembered how some films (Fatal Attraction, The Hand That Rocks The Cradle) play off that as well. It can be very jarring to find out the pretty girl is as lethal as any cobra or grizzly bear.

I think it's a weird outgrowth of the old chivalric notions, coupled with leftover 1950's and before thoughts on how women were not expected to perform the same tasks as men.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on May 25, 2021, 01:15:27 AM

A neat idea I heard is that Elves naturally soak in their environments. Put elves in a swamp and in a few generations you get swamp elves. Same stuff with Deserts or even underwater. They are not so much a sub-species as a regional variant.

As such they could interbreed without distilling the species, as its dependant on location, not bloodline.

Alternately, the environment might be shaping itself to the elves.  They are magical after all.  Bob the elf likes frogs and snakes and reeds and the swamp grows up around him.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 25, 2021, 09:28:59 AM

Quote from: Torque2100 on May 25, 2021, 09:08:44 AM
*snip*

Hm. I was going to argue this, but then I remembered how some films (Fatal Attraction, The Hand That Rocks The Cradle) play off that as well. It can be very jarring to find out the pretty girl is as lethal as any cobra or grizzly bear.

I think it's a weird outgrowth of the old chivalric notions, coupled with leftover 1950's and before thoughts on how women were not expected to perform the same tasks as men.

You are absolutely right.  It seems to be an outgrowth of Victorian attitudes towards women combined with Romanticist notions that beauty and ugliness are reflections of the inner self.  "Ugly outside, ugly and sinful inside.  Beautiful outside, beautiful and virtuous inside." 

SJWs have pointed this out and I feel like it's their "broken clock" moment.  A moment they immediately undermine by leaning into and exploiting it to get their way.

Quote from: Torque2100 on May 25, 2021, 09:57:26 AM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 25, 2021, 09:28:59 AM

Quote from: Torque2100 on May 25, 2021, 09:08:44 AM
*snip*

Hm. I was going to argue this, but then I remembered how some films (Fatal Attraction, The Hand That Rocks The Cradle) play off that as well. It can be very jarring to find out the pretty girl is as lethal as any cobra or grizzly bear.

I think it's a weird outgrowth of the old chivalric notions, coupled with leftover 1950's and before thoughts on how women were not expected to perform the same tasks as men.

You are absolutely right.  It seems to be an outgrowth of Victorian attitudes towards women combined with Romanticist notions that beauty and ugliness are reflections of the inner self.  "Ugly outside, ugly and sinful inside.  Beautiful outside, beautiful and virtuous inside." 

SJWs have pointed this out and I feel like it's their "broken clock" moment.  A moment they immediately undermine by leaning into and exploiting it to get their way.

Although anyone who has seen Andrea Dworkin could easily attest to the 'ugly inside, ugly outside' argument.

"Good" drow were already a thing. 

Quote
Rakes roaming the streets in Erelhei-Cinlu are bands of bitter
youths, often outcasts. The band will be composed of either
Drow, Drow-elves, and half-Drow (human cross) or Drow, half-
Drow, and (1-2) half-orcs. The former sort of group is 40% likely,
the latter 60%. Drow crosses will have magic resistance equal
to their Dark Elven heritage but no spell ability. The bands with
elven-Drow members will be hostile to all they perceive as part
of the system which prevails in their world, and the Dark Elves
with them are of the few who are neither totally degenerate
nor wholly evil—they are haters of the society around them
and see no good in it.

From D3 Vault of the Drow.

It's as I have discussed in my two most recent livestreams: 1e AD&D did it first, and best.

While I am also against 'Hot girl = goodness' thing, and I will disagree on the Japan not caring about it thing. (There are plenty of pathetic japanese stories about awful women that are meant to be sympathetic because their hot).

The drow I think is more the modern kick of 'There can be no bad guy races because species = black person, because everything is politics'.

Again, just a few months back it was Orcs, which are explicitly ugly.

Quote from: David Johansen on May 25, 2021, 09:48:44 AM
Alternately, the environment might be shaping itself to the elves.  They are magical after all.  Bob the elf likes frogs and snakes and reeds and the swamp grows up around him.

This is something I think GW did right in Old Warhammer Fantasy (at least when they weren't constantly retconning everything).  In the WFRP 2nd edition rules an Elf is an Elf is an Elf.  The differences between Wood Elves, High Elves and Dark Elves were cultural.

Quote from: Torque2100 on May 25, 2021, 09:08:44 AM
Drow have always been problematic (in the Pre-woke sense as in "causes problems") because they trigger something in the Western mind that I like to call for lack of a better term, the "White Knight Effect."

You can write a character who is male.  Describe them as ugly, handsome or beautiful, doesn't matter.  Your players will jump on a male BBEG while he's down and chop him into pieces the size of croutons without a second thought.   They will do this no matter how sympathetic the character is.  No matter how much he might have reasons for what he does. Your players recognize that anyone willing to do the things that a BBEG is capable of doing is simply too dangerous.

Make the villain an attractive woman, however and you instantly short circuit all reasoning.  No matter how vile and sociopathic this evil woman has proven herself to be, your players will tie themselves in knots to justify letting her go at best or at worst actually justifying and excusing her evil acts.  The default Drow mold: and exotic society dominated by scantily clad, dark-skinned exotic women, hits all of the White Knight buttons like a godsdamned jackhammer.

I got a wonderful demonstration of this effect firsthand in my Cyberpunk RED campaign.  My PCs were tasked with hunting a serial killer whose "work" had ended up on the XBD market.  One of the strongest leads the PCs had was this XBD of the killer's crimes. So they went to hunt down a BD seller who was rumored to have a recording of one of the serial killer's crimes.   They found the dealer to be a fat, greasy creep living out of the back of a van.  The PCs were only to happy to torture him to find out who sold him the BD.  The source of these BDs turned out to be a team of 2 sisters who had stolen trophy BDs from the killer and were editing and selling them.  Now my PCs had been only too happy to brutally murder the man, they literally mag-dumped a 10mm SMG into his chest and point-blank range.  However, the instant the criminals were young attractive women suddenly it was a moral issue.  You can't do nasty things to women, that's wrong.  Now that attractive women are involved suddenly we have to be better.

As tempting as it is to blame SJWs for this, the White Knight effect absolutely pre-dates the SJW invasion of nerd media.  This has been a specfically American hang up for a long time.  The multi-decade obsession with "redeeming" Drow and Succubi should be proof enough of this as is the contrasting treatment of men vs women villains in most media.

If SJWs can be blamed for anything, it's massively accelerating this trend. Just check out "Cruella" a movie that attempts to justify the actions of a woman who wanted to make a fur coat by skinning puppies if you need proof.

This is very much an artifact of Anglosphere culture.  I've recently been on a Manga and Eurocomics kick: reading Berserk, the Incal, the Metabarons and Pepe Moreno's Rebel.  Japanese and Spaniards do not have the same hangups, it seems.

good stuff but definitely way more anglosphere than merican. don't forget "Fallen women" shelters of England and such.

but honestly if you know this trend (and it is very real, have watched players tie themselves into knots to not kill hot ladies until they did things really beyond the pale) you can weaponize it in games to good effect. work with the screwups you have instead of hope for the ones you don't and shit

Quote from: thedungeondelver on May 25, 2021, 10:36:13 AM
"Good" drow were already a thing. 

Quote
Rakes roaming the streets in Erelhei-Cinlu are bands of bitter
youths, often outcasts. The band will be composed of either
Drow, Drow-elves, and half-Drow (human cross) or Drow, half-
Drow, and (1-2) half-orcs. The former sort of group is 40% likely,
the latter 60%. Drow crosses will have magic resistance equal
to their Dark Elven heritage but no spell ability. The bands with
elven-Drow members will be hostile to all they perceive as part
of the system which prevails in their world, and the Dark Elves
with them are of the few who are neither totally degenerate
nor wholly evil—they are haters of the society around them
and see no good in it.

From D3 Vault of the Drow.

It's as I have discussed in my two most recent livestreams: 1e AD&D did it first, and best.

Yes! Exactly. Thank you for posting this. I was vaguely remembering this but couldn't remember the reference.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on May 22, 2021, 12:29:20 AM
This is one of the reasons I like the incomplete games, like AD&D1e, Classic Traveller and so on - rules with no setting, or at most an implied setting. Because when you have a published setting it'll be warped by commercial (eg licensed ones, like the Firefly game which was based on the movie but not the tv series) or ideological nonsense.

But if you have your own setting then you can do whatever you want, like the Chinese bootleg toys - my favourite was the Thomas the Tank Engine Transformer. I don't want your stupid ideas, I have my own!

Yup agreed. I definitely have my own stupid ideas.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 25, 2021, 08:28:22 AM
There's basically only three kinds of elves: high elves, wood elves, and dark elves. Everything else is just a variation on that.

Basically there is just one type of Elf and that is Elf.  :P

Quote from: Shasarak on May 25, 2021, 06:49:22 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 25, 2021, 08:28:22 AM
There's basically only three kinds of elves: high elves, wood elves, and dark elves. Everything else is just a variation on that.

Basically there is just one type of Elf and that is Elf.  :P

You've almost bit into Tasha's poison. Just take the next step and say that there is only one type of PC "race" and you can pick a few items from a small menu of options and then cosmetically skin them to your liking.

Quote from: HappyDaze on May 25, 2021, 07:12:56 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on May 25, 2021, 06:49:22 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 25, 2021, 08:28:22 AM
There's basically only three kinds of elves: high elves, wood elves, and dark elves. Everything else is just a variation on that.

Basically there is just one type of Elf and that is Elf.  :P

You've almost bit into Tasha's poison. Just take the next step and say that there is only one type of PC "race" and you can pick a few items from a small menu of options and then cosmetically skin them to your liking.

I think There's a decent point to be made that ability bonuses discourage players from creating characters that don't fit into the standard box (https://web.archive.org/web/20150115193606/http://the-qlc.com/loserz/go/209), and encourage special snowflake race bloat. (https://www.rpgcrossing.com/showthread.php?t=118403)

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 25, 2021, 08:57:22 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on May 25, 2021, 07:12:56 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on May 25, 2021, 06:49:22 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 25, 2021, 08:28:22 AM
There's basically only three kinds of elves: high elves, wood elves, and dark elves. Everything else is just a variation on that.

Basically there is just one type of Elf and that is Elf.  :P

You've almost bit into Tasha's poison. Just take the next step and say that there is only one type of PC "race" and you can pick a few items from a small menu of options and then cosmetically skin them to your liking.

I think There's a decent point to be made that ability bonuses discourage players from creating characters that don't fit into the standard box (https://web.archive.org/web/20150115193606/http://the-qlc.com/loserz/go/209), and encourage special snowflake race bloat. (https://www.rpgcrossing.com/showthread.php?t=118403)

Every PC is a special snowflake.  Why try and fight it?

Quote from: Shasarak on May 26, 2021, 12:27:48 AMEvery PC is a special snowflake.  Why try and fight it?

Every PC is special, but keeping a lid on stuff allows for more thematic and setting consistency.

Plus if you really let them go overboard, it becomes downright cancerous.

If you're too much of an incompetent fuck to keep your players in check during character generation, you should reconsider being a GM.

Regardless of books, Rule Zero -- the GM has final say -- takes precedence.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 25, 2021, 08:57:22 PM
I think There's a decent point to be made

I disagree.

Quote from: Shasarak on May 25, 2021, 06:49:22 PM
Basically there is just one type of Elf and that is Elf.  :P

"I thought they made the toys."

"Ho Ho Ho We let them think that."

Quote from: HappyDaze on May 26, 2021, 08:39:01 AM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 25, 2021, 08:57:22 PM
I think There's a decent point to be made

I disagree.

I didn't say Tasha was making it. This predates Tasha by... I have no idea how long.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on May 23, 2021, 06:57:10 PMBut to the main question: Will the next book be drow? Probably not. They are too understaffed to have time for a dedicated splat of that sort.

They can outsource it like some other books. Or bring in "diversity hires" to write it for them. Never underestimate WOTCs ability to shoot themselves in both feet and the head.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on May 26, 2021, 12:43:12 AM

Quote from: Shasarak on May 26, 2021, 12:27:48 AMEvery PC is a special snowflake.  Why try and fight it?

Every PC is special, but keeping a lid on stuff allows for more thematic and setting consistency.

Plus if you really let them go overboard, it becomes downright cancerous.

Maybe, if you are playing Dwarf world.

Quote from: Omega on May 30, 2021, 09:05:04 AM

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on May 23, 2021, 06:57:10 PMBut to the main question: Will the next book be drow? Probably not. They are too understaffed to have time for a dedicated splat of that sort.

They can outsource it like some other books. Or bring in "diversity hires" to write it for them. Never underestimate WOTCs ability to shoot themselves in both feet and the head.

They really need to bring in some otherkin who identify as Drow to work on it as cultural consultants and sensitivity readers.

Quote from: TJS on May 30, 2021, 09:24:55 PM
They really need to bring in some otherkin who identify as Drow to work on it as cultural consultants and sensitivity readers.

Think you mean "chanelers"... the ones that believe they are reincarnations of game characters. Though in this case otherkin probably fits too.