Anti-western, Anti-civilization

The Yann Waters · October 13, 2006, 10:38:47 AM

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalIf you watch a film, read a book, go to a play, listen to some music, watch an interpretive dance recital, subtext ALWAYS matters.

And strangely enough, you can still play CoC without being disturbed by the Mythos interpretation of science as something ultimately harmful because it reveals truths that humanity is incapable of accepting without sinking into madness, or bothered by the knowledge that none of that is anywhere near what the author of the original stories actually believed.

Balbinus · October 13, 2006, 11:00:08 AM

Quote from: GrimGentAnd strangely enough, you can still play CoC without being disturbed by the Mythos interpretation of science as something ultimately harmful because it reveals truths that humanity is incapable of accepting without sinking into madness, or bothered by the knowledge that none of that is anywhere near what the author of the original stories actually believed.

Actually, the problem with Lovecraftian horror is that it is now widely accepted and as such no longer horrifying.

The point of HPL is that the universe is indifferent to us, we fundamentally do not matter. That's the horror, it's existential horror.

The monsters are merely a literary device to communicate the theme, which is that our lives are meaningless. The problem with science in HPL is that it tells us this fundamental and terrible truth, that we don't matter, whereas with religion we at least had the comfort of our illusions.

That said, I'm fairly confident with minor amendments to setting one could run Mage fine without the issues that make it unfun for Mr A.

The Yann Waters · October 13, 2006, 11:06:35 AM

Quote from: BalbinusActually, the problem with Lovecraftian horror is that it is now widely accepted and as such no longer horrifying.

True. By now, it's become tinged with nostalgia more than anything else, which is fortunately not without an appeal of its own.

Christmas Ape · October 13, 2006, 11:10:11 AM

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalI'm sorry but that's absolute bullshit. If you watch a film, read a book, go to a play, listen to some music, watch an interpretive dance recital, subtext ALWAYS matters. In fact, in some mediums the subtext is the point of the piece in the first place.

Do me a favor. Read the post you quoted again. Try to find the phrase "role-playing game". Note how role-playing games are neither books, nor plays, nor music.

Swear to god, I didn't think "these two things are different" would become the phrase I need to repeat this often.

QuoteYou might be content with wandering aimlessly through life thinking that The Road Not Taken is about some bloke walking home or that Don't Look Now is about some guy being murdered by a dwarf but the rest of us aren't that shallow.

A little personal aggression over the bow, huh? Sorry, not rising to it. You may return to getting all twitchy and angry about what some guy wrote in a game book a decade ago in peace.

Balbinus · October 13, 2006, 11:27:39 AM

Quote from: GrimGentTrue. By now, it's become tinged with nostalgia more than anything else, which is fortunately not without an appeal of its own.

In fairness, the few times I got to play Mage I thought it was great, but it seemed contrary to the rules of the internet to let that get in the way of the debate...

James McMurray · October 13, 2006, 11:40:32 AM

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalMage is essentially "Hippy Luddite Scum: The RPG", it is fueled by the most backward, ignorant, sophomoric, relativistic twaddle that only pot-smoking sociology undergraduate generally subscribe to.

It's also maddeningly hypocritical because obviously science is bad but not cooky scientists who build robots or geeky computer scientists... they're okay. It's just the men in white coats that are all fascists!

If that wasn't a big enough slap in the face, they make a game about conflicting belief systems during the middle ages and then don't have the balls to paint christianity as the bad guys despite the fact that the history of europe from the time of Constantine to the Renaissance is all about how deep and how often God can stick it in us.

Don't hold back now. Tell us how you really feel.

mythusmage · October 13, 2006, 11:41:55 AM

Quote from: JimBobOzBitch. Bitch. Whine. Socially inappropriate behavior

You get the feeling his mother never let him get hurt?

Mr. Analytical · October 13, 2006, 11:47:07 AM

Quote from: Christmas ApeSwear to god, I didn't think "these two things are different" would become the phrase I need to repeat this often.

Yeah, but the problem is that that's the very idea that I take exception to, so just asserting the negation won't get you very far. My whole point is that RPGs DO have subtexts and DO have intellectual political leanings.

I read a book about early modern France this morning and there's a bit in it when they talk about how in those days, people argued by assumption rather than analysis or evidence. I'm getting flashbacks here.

Mr. Analytical · October 13, 2006, 12:02:35 PM

Quote from: BalbinusIn fairness, the few times I got to play Mage I thought it was great, but it seemed contrary to the rules of the internet to let that get in the way of the debate...

I've played it too, in two languages. I've also played Shadowrun. Doesn't mean I don't think they're both intellectually bankrupt though.

It should be common knowledge by now that the "RPG" hobby is actually two quite distinct hobbies.

There's playing games, and then there's RPG Criticism which generally involves terms like "crunch" "kicker" and "apodictic reason".

In truth, I'll happily play most things because if you've got a good group and a good GM even the silliest of RPGs is fun. That shouldn't get in the way of arguing the merits of different games though, the two activities are completely separate. Like playing football and watching football.

Hastur T. Fannon · October 13, 2006, 12:05:53 PM

Quote from: GrimGentAnd I've already pointed out a number of times that while you can certainly argue that the Union in the game represents technophilia and totalitarian order run amuck, even in the pre-Rev editions of Mage science in itself was never something to be opposed.

Er yes it was. What the "Sons of Ether" did might have been Science!, but it was never science. The scientific method was anathema to them because it was just too slow. And the Virtual Adepts were too busy being 3l1te (did I spell that right?)

Heck in the WoD, even vaccinations were a Bad Thing

Balbinus · October 13, 2006, 12:08:26 PM

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalI've played it too, in two languages. I've also played Shadowrun. Doesn't mean I don't think they're both intellectually bankrupt though.

It should be common knowledge by now that the "RPG" hobby is actually two quite distinct hobbies.

There's playing games, and then there's RPG Criticism which generally involves terms like "crunch" "kicker" and "apodictic reason".

In truth, I'll happily play most things because if you've got a good group and a good GM even the silliest of RPGs is fun. That shouldn't get in the way of arguing the merits of different games though, the two activities are completely separate. Like playing football and watching football.

I take your point.

What's wrong with Shadowrun, apart from being a totally lame premise?

Three hobbies, you forgot collecting and reading (which is one activity really), many people buy to read but neither play nor analyse.

Mr. Analytical · October 13, 2006, 12:14:46 PM

Fair enough... three hobbies it is.

Shadowrun bothers me because the genres don't blend. It's a good solid cyberpunk system but with a load of stupid magic shit tacked onto it without any work being done on how to blend the fantasy and cyberpunk genres. So in play it either winds up being cyberpunk with elves or fantasy with huge guns (like the Harlequin adventures).

It's like that stupid D20 game where you get dragons in space. It's the creative equivalent of coming up with a dish, cooking it to perfection and then pouring green food colourant all over it in order to claim it's a different kind of dish.

Beyond that, the game's solidly crunchy and I have no problem with it whatsoever.

Dr Rotwang! · October 13, 2006, 12:19:08 PM

Hey, hey, hey, um, um, you know how I, um, how I played Mage?

My way.

Mr. Analytical · October 13, 2006, 12:21:19 PM

I'm guessing there were regrets. You had a few. But then again, too few to mention.

blakkie · October 13, 2006, 12:36:52 PM

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalShadowrun bothers me because the genres don't blend. It's a good solid cyberpunk system but with a load of stupid magic shit tacked onto it without any work being done on how to blend the fantasy and cyberpunk genres. So in play it either winds up being cyberpunk with elves or fantasy with huge guns (like the Harlequin adventures).

It is an odd if not goofy mixture, and difficult to pull off and maintain. One would think niche market only. Which in a lot of ways it is, although apparently a decent sized niche.

But "without any work done on how to blend"? Sorry, but you are definately off the mark there.