Quote from: Ian AbsentiaLook, I just think that jumping up and down on the likes of WW over this issue is like shooting fish in a barrel.  Their games are about monsters, for crying out loud.  In order to make a monster playable, they have to fabricate a mentality by which the monster can believe that what its doing is right. Some of what those monsters do is merely fringe politics or philosophy taken to monstrous extremes.

Yeah, that's the same sort of thing that is happening in Shadowrun. It is a natural outgrowth of making the genre playable. In SR's case the whole dysopian genre is about the world you know going wrong. So you look around the world from your POV at the bad parts and amp them up. All the slipper-slope fears you have. Of course with SR the eco people, for example, are very nasty mofos too. Pretty much every organization is a collective of jerks, the only question is where they are on the jerky scale.  So I think it keeps that sense of irony there that Elliot spoke of.

Quote from: Elliot WilenWhat? No, fascism is far more like hypertrophic romanticism than a backlash against it.

I could see one leading to the other, especially under some conditions. But one is the other?

Don't get me wrong, I find immense flaws in romanticism and don't mean to downplay it's problems. Nor do I deny there is some comminality, such as highly emotional components (appearing as jingoism/nationalism in fascism). I just don't see one as the other.

QuoteYeah, that's the same sort of thing that is happening in Shadowrun. In that case the whole dysopian genre is about the world you know going wrong. So you look around the world from your POV at the bad parts and amp them up. Of course with SR the eco people, for example, are very nasty mofos too. Pretty much every organization is a collective of jerks, the only question is where they are on the jerky scale.

When the Universal Brotherhood that preaches love and comraderie turns out to be insect spirits intent on world domination you know for sure that there's no such thing as "a friendly face in a crowd."

Quote from: McrowBesides Conan I'm having a hard time rembering any games that gave me this sort of idea. Do you have othere examples?

Pretty well every White Wolf game bases itself on the concept that "western civilization is evil, science is oppresive, non-western cultures are all hunky-dory".

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Quote from: ColonelHardissonSome time back I read an interesting article which posited that Howard wasn't a "virulent" racist, but was more a product of his environment. Besides, "virulent" is a pretty strong term to use - Howard wasn't out lynching people. Yes, he certainly had a racist attitude, I won't argue that. L. Sprague deCamp sanitized the Conan stories, at least, so that attitude didn't come through as strongly in the stories he edited. But Howard didn't seem anymore racist than, say, Sax Rohmer with his "Fu Manchu" stories. Not trying to minimize it, it's just that "virulent" is a pretty strong word.

As for him being a psychopath...Howard was certainly socially maladjusted, but I wouldn't say he was psychopathic. It cheapens the term to use it that casually.

But, beyond those points, I agree with what you're saying.

Well, let's face it, the whole genre of the time (and by that I mean Pulp, mythos stuff, and sword & sorcery of the 1920s-40s) was filled with racist concepts, mostly due to being a product of their times.

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Quote from: GrimGentThe Technocracy in Mage wasn't the enemy of the Traditions because it advocated technology, though, but because it was fundamentally opposed to "democracy and human rights" and violently sought to eradicate all other ideologies than its own by either executing or brainwashing every "thought criminal" and "reality deviant". They were the self-appointed guardians of the masses, who later came to the conclusion that the masses couldn't be trusted to make the right decisions. The problem with their agenda was totalitarianism, not that it was pursued under the guise of science.

Except that science was damned by association, and WW didn't seem to have any fucking problem with their proposed alternative, which was rule by a gang of self-appointed elite mages lording it over the mundanes (which is pretty well the preferred world-view of the WW swine in general, their own wish-fulfillment fantasy of being recognized for their rightfully-ignored "wonderfulness").

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I found SLA Industries' "Wold of Progress" to be a _bit_ heavy-handed in its criticism of corporate and media culture. Went too close to Paranoia on a few instances. But now that I know the TRUTH, it doesn't bother me as much

Quote from: jrientsPundit, I'm still freaked out over here.  Are you saying that the text of the most recent Conan rpg (which I don't own) either states or implies that barbarism is really better than civilization?  Cause I know a ton of Conan fans in the gaming world and none of them actually believe that.

No, I'm mostly talking about the original conan stories, and the idea they seem to promote that a "survival of the fittest" brute force is always superior to "weak" civilization.

Its one of the things I've always despised about Conan.

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Quote from: RPGPunditExcept that science was damned by association, and WW didn't seem to have any fucking problem with their proposed alternative, which was rule by a gang of self-appointed elite mages lording it over the mundanes (which is pretty well the preferred world-view of the WW swine in general, their own wish-fulfillment fantasy of being recognized for their rightfully-ignored "wonderfulness").

Except that by the metaphysics of the setting, science is ultimately no different from sorcery; and the Technocrats are "a gang of self-appointed elite mages lording it over the mundanes", while the only common sentiment among the Traditions is a healthy respect for free will and the right of everyone to choose their own way.

Quote from: RPGPunditNo, I'm mostly talking about the original conan stories, and the idea they seem to promote that a "survival of the fittest" brute force is always superior to "weak" civilization.

Its one of the things I've always despised about Conan.

That he is the prototypical jock? Still stinging from always getting picked last for dodgeball games?

Pulp is about the over-the-top hero who'll conquer the world. Be it by hulking brawn, gentlemanly brains, or such. Conan is just another hero prototype that represents an ideal to identify with fictionally, but everybody has their own favorite.  Me? I like the wilely scamp. The not-quite-gentleman thief. The rogue in the truest sense.

So what is yours? The witty, world-wise academic seems almost too obvious, but nothing else really comes to mind.

Dude, the mightiness of my Cimmerian barbarian is the whole point of playing Conan for me.  Is it opposed to the benefits of Western civilization to the common man?  What?  I can't hear your question as my sword is chopping through your puny, civilized neck!  

Seriously, I feel that as far as RPGs go, they should represent the variety of viewpoints of people/fiction/myth/etc.  I figure there should be RPGs for both pro-Western and anti-Western views.  (As well as Western RPGs for folk who like their six-shooters. :-)  It's not like there's a lack of pro-Western RPGs, is there?  

As for Mage, although I didn't care per se with the first edition view, I also don't care for the cries that it has to be changed to express a more popular political view -- which is just another variety of political correctness.

Quote from: jhkimDude, the mightiness of my Cimmerian barbarian is the whole point of playing Conan for me.  Is it opposed to the benefits of Western civilization to the common man?  What?  I can't hear your question as my sword is chopping through your puny, civilized neck!  

Seriously, I feel that as far as RPGs go, they should represent the variety of viewpoints of people/fiction/myth/etc.  I figure there should be RPGs for both pro-Western and anti-Western views.  (As well as Western RPGs for folk who like their six-shooters. :-)  It's not like there's a lack of pro-Western RPGs, is there?  

As for Mage, although I didn't care per se with the first edition view, I also don't care for the cries that it has to be changed to express a more popular political view -- which is just another variety of political correctness.

Amen to that. I don't mind a game that may push a button or two on my culture assumptions, especially if it delivers in the action or suspense, which I also agree oMage and it's nearly clownish counterculturism, didn't deliver.

And Conan? Isn't he in many ways a mash note to the American Common Man, who has little use or even respect for the soft, rich elites, and yet still makes it to the top with his own brand of brains, brawn, and ambition?

Mage is essentially "Hippy Luddite Scum: The RPG", it is fueled by the most backward, ignorant, sophomoric, relativistic twaddle that only pot-smoking sociology undergraduate generally subscribe to.

It's also maddeningly hypocritical because obviously science is bad but not cooky scientists who build robots or geeky computer scientists... they're okay.  It's just the men in white coats that are all fascists!

If that wasn't a big enough slap in the face, they make a game about conflicting belief systems during the middle ages and then don't have the balls to paint christianity as the bad guys despite the fact that the history of europe from the time of Constantine to the Renaissance is all about how deep and how often God can stick it in us.

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalIt's also maddeningly hypocritical because obviously science is bad but not cooky scientists who build robots or geeky computer scientists... they're okay.  It's just the men in white coats that are all fascists!

Nope, those men in the white coats are "bad" because they are fascists. Their interest in technology is completely incidental in that respect: replace the Technocracy with the Choir and science with religion, and the result would be just as objectionable.

Quote from: blakkieI could see one leading to the other, especially under some conditions. But one is the other?

Don't get me wrong, I find immense flaws in romanticism and don't mean to downplay it's problems. Nor do I deny there is some comminality, such as highly emotional components (appearing as jingoism/nationalism in fascism). I just don't see one as the other.

I mean that romanticism has recognizable proto-fascistic components such as turning against universalism/internationalism, a return to the past/myth of the golden age (all the Roman and Gothic imagery in fascism), glorification of (quoting wikipedia here), "achievements of what it perceived as misunderstood heroic individuals and artists that altered society". I take the latter as pretty much a reaction against the idea of trusting "the masses" to safeguard and advance civilization, thus opposed to both democracy and Marxism, which of course were regarded with revulsion by fascists.

Quote from: GrimGentNope, those men in the white coats are "bad" because they are fascists. Their interest in technology is completely incidental in that respect: replace the Technocracy with the Choir and science with religion, and the result would be just as objectionable.

  Sorry, but you're being either a clot or an apologist.

  Mage's stand-point chimes so perfectly with the postmodern relativists that it's impossible to read anything other than a hatred of science into it.  There's a reason why WW picked scientists as the bad guys and it's THAT attitude that annoys me about the game, not the (largely irrelevant) in-game justification.