Quote from: MaddmanAgreed, it's not Conan it's oMage that inspired this rant.  And much as I bust his chops he's not far off on this one - the original Mage was the game where artists, drug abusers, and anarchists saved the world from the terrors of mass production, sanitation, and modern medicine.  From what I understand the revised version toned this down signifigantly, and it's gone from the new edition.

The first edition corebook gave that impression, yes, but the black-and-white juxtaposition began to fade away already in the first supplements; and by the time of 2e, neither the Traditions nor the Technocracy were portrayed as entirely heroic or villaneous (although the former do value the freedom of the individual in a way that the latter most definitely don't).

Quote from: blakkieWell perhaps he should have mentioned WW then?

Ahem...

Quote from: RPGPunditBut pretty well all of the others, and the emphasis they have in games these days, is traceable to White Wolf and its gang of oxygen-consumers; who's general gist has always been that it would somehow be better for "civilization" if a tiny elite of "special people" were running everything instead of big bad democracy and free will.

Quote from: MaddmanAgreed, it's not Conan it's oMage that inspired this rant.  And much as I bust his chops he's not far off on this one - the original Mage was the game where artists, drug abusers, and anarchists saved the world from the terrors of mass production, sanitation, and modern medicine.  From what I understand the revised version toned this down signifigantly, and it's gone from the new edition.

That's what I'm trying to figure out, which recent game is he talking about? Or is this just another 10-year-late rant?

Quote from: blakkieThat's what I'm trying to figure out, which recent game is he talking about? Or is this just another 10-year-late rant?

Well, it could be Exalted: "Do not believe what the scientists tell you. The natural history we know is a lie, a falsehood sold to us by wicked old men who would make the world a dull gray prison and protect us from the dangers inherent to freedom." Apparently there was a similar passage in the second edition, as well, although I haven't read the book myself.

Quote from: GrimGentWell, it could be Exalted: "Do not believe what the scientists tell you. The natural history we know is a lie, a falsehood sold to us by wicked old men who would make the world a dull gray prison and protect us from the dangers inherent to freedom." Apparently there was a similar passage in the second edition, as well, although I haven't read the book myself.

Hrmm, that seems to be sort of a requirement for any contemporary or near-contemporary setting.  Look at Shadowrun.  They have shamans and all sorts of really powerful foci popping out of the woodwork from the "savages", where the aboriginal magic is real.  It has a lot of "the primatives know what they are doing, modern industry is injuring mother-earth" going on. They even use the name Giasphere.

Come to think of it that predates WW by a couple of years, but obviously is influenced by a similar themes in society at large. Although a lot heavier on the Japan Inc. angle as per it's cyberpunk heritage.

QuoteMuch of the noble savage/civilization is flawed thought comes from the 19th Romantic movement.

That`s really the problem. And germany really fell into onanism in those times, "forgetting" much of the classical and enlightenment period. Romanticism is a first step to fascism.

Robert E. Howard was a nerd. A nerd with anxiety disorder and a domineering mother. He could've used a good shag.

Quote from: SettembriniThat`s really the problem. And germany really fell into onanism in those times, "forgetting" much of the classical and enlightenment period. Romanticism is a first step to fascism.

The second step is the overexagerated backlash against it?

Quote from: mythusmageRobert E. Howard was a nerd. A nerd with anxiety disorder and a domineering mother. He could've used a good shag.

He blew out his brains, because his mother was about to die from TB, with a bit of obscure poetry in his pocket. And H.P Lovecraft was his penpal. A good shag wasn't the only thing he needed.

Quote from: blakkieThe second step is the overexagerated backlash against it?

What? No, fascism is far more like hypertrophic romanticism than a backlash against it.

The "noble savage" goes back beyond the European enlightenment. Tacitus frequently used portrayals of the barbarians to criticize Roman politics and mores, especially in his Germania. One difference, though, is that he didn't have an image of barbarians as completely good.

What's lacking in the modern primitive movements is a sense of irony (which mirrors the lack of irony in modern triumphalists who blithely ignore the costs of civilization and modernization).

Quote from: RPGPundit...the emphasis they have in games these days, is traceable to White Wolf and its gang of oxygen-consumers; who's general gist has always been that it would somehow be better for "civilization" if a tiny elite of "special people" were running everything instead of big bad democracy and free will.

Cause, you know, those are evil Western concepts.

RPGs are (often? usually?) a form of escapism.  One of the things people like to escape is being themselves.  "I'm bored of being me and living where I live and having it as comfortable as I have it."  So they idealise the Other.

Big deal.

One of the things I really hate is when people lean heavily on hyperbole and moral outrage to make an obvious point, and then miss the mark by a long shot.

!i!

Then should you really be reading internet forums?

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaOne of the things I really hate is when people lean heavily on hyperbole and moral outrage to make an obvious point, and then miss the mark by a long shot.

!i!

Internet forums are not for you then.

That being said, I actually find myself in agreement with a lot of RPGpundits comments. It's a rant I can sympathize with.



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Quote from: JaegerInternet forums are not for you then.

Not the forums -- just some of the people who frequent them.

Look, I just think that jumping up and down on the likes of WW over this issue is like shooting fish in a barrel.  Their games are about monsters, for crying out loud.  In order to make a monster playable, they have to fabricate a mentality by which the monster can believe that what its doing is right.  Some of what those monsters do is merely fringe politics or philosophy taken to monstrous extremes.  The fact that some players (and perhaps some of authors and publishers) may fall prey to their own escapist fantasies to the point of believing them is a time-honored tradition that plagues our hobby.  For the vast majority of us -- the folks at WW included -- it's just a game.

!i!

Quote from: blakkieHe blew out his brains, because his mother was about to die from TB, with a bit of obscure poetry in his pocket. And H.P Lovecraft was his penpal. A good shag wasn't the only thing he needed.

I can totally see HPL and Howard fucking in the men's room at DragonCon then blogging about it later.  (Fifty cents says Howard would make HPL wear kitty ears and meow while they did the deed.)

REH was a sad figure, I have a bit of sympathy for the guy.  He also created the most important character in American literature: Sailor Steve Costigan.  And by gum, he'll rip right hooks in under your heart till you agree!