Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalIt's "People are making stuff that I don't like, here's why I don't like it".

From William Gibson's website:

QuoteThursday, May 08, 2003

    posted 11:36 PM
    SHADOWRUN: GAG ME WITH A SPOON

    No relationship. No permission. Nothing. Nary a word exchanged, ever.

    Except that the admixture of cyberspace and, spare me, *elves*, has always been more than I could bear to think about.

    I've just been ignoring it for years, and hope to continue to.

:rolleyes:

Quote from: SosthenesThen it's a fitting comparison, as this is about as original and new as punk music...

"The world would be a better place if people would just accept that there's nothing new under the sun, and everything you can do with a person has probably been done long before you got there." - Hooper-X

Exactly when did "elves" become such a symbol for conservative fiction/games? From Gibson to Talislanta... Yes, they might not be the most imaginative characters, but even amongst all the bad cliches, pointy-eared (spare me, oh Tolkien fanatics) bowhunters seem to be especially despised.

(BTW, any reading suggestions for CyberProgRock? )

As far as the fantasy genre is concerned, Tolkien is Kim Il-Sung.  His books are aged things forged in a bygone era and representative of the conservative and border-line racist attitudes of the time Tolkien was writing in.

Elves are a symbol of the fact that the fantasy genre hasn't moved since the 1950's.

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalAs far as the fantasy genre is concerned, Tolkien is Kim Il-Sung.  His books are aged things forged in a bygone era and representative of the conservative and border-line racist attitudes of the time Tolkien was writing in.

Elves are a symbol of the fact that the fantasy genre hasn't moved since the 1950's.

Tolkien wrecked the fantasy genre.  Give me Fritz Leiber and Robert E Howard anyday and Clark Ashton Smith over any of them.

That said, my favourite fantasy fiction is still probably stuff like The Broken Sword, Viriconium or Grendel.

Quote from: BalbinusTolkien wrecked the fantasy genre.  Give me Fritz Leiber and Robert E Howard anyday and Clark Ashton Smith over any of them.

Or Lord Dunsany.

Quote from: GrimGentOr Lord Dunsany.

To my great shame I have read little Dunsany.

Machen though, there's another great to throw into the mix.

Hm, must read more Dunsany.

Or Gord the Rogue.

Quote from: BalbinusHm, must read more Dunsany.

Gutenberg to the rescue...

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalElves are a symbol of the fact that the fantasy genre hasn't moved since the 1950's.

*shrug*  They seem to have, like unicorns and rainbows, the bite on some people. I personally wouldn't play with them, or dwarves, in most games if it was solely up to me.

I suspect part of the reason they get included in a lot of RPGs because they are a cheap character differentiation tool.

Quote from: GrimGentGutenberg to the rescue...

Thanks, much appreciated.

Where else but a site for gamers would you see people upset because the rationalization for the underlying philosphy in a game about magic in the modern world doesn't work?

Quote from: RPGPunditAmerica is both the best and the worst of the west.  In its original vision, the ideal of the founding fathers, it was the absolute apex of western civilization; everything civilization had been all about had lead to that point.
In practice, and especially in its current administration, it is the "14 year old retarded bully".

I rail against it not because its a part of western civilization, but because I can see it being responsible for the downfall of western civilization.  I attack America today because I desperately want to save western civilization.

RPGPundit

Hmmm, pundy we may have more in common than I thought. Your first paragraph above is an almost perfect match with my sentiments re america.

Quote from: BalbinusTolkien wrecked the fantasy genre.  Give me Fritz Leiber and Robert E Howard anyday and Clark Ashton Smith over any of them.

That said, my favourite fantasy fiction is still probably stuff like The Broken Sword, Viriconium or Grendel.

The fucking Judgement Day must be upon us, because for the first time I fucking disagree with Balbinus!

Dude, that's a very wrong argument. Tolkien didn't wreck the genre: he made something that was different in the time his books were released. If you want to put the blame on someone, blame the legions of drooling hacks that have made the tolkienesque fantasy the cliché that is these days. Blaming Tolkien for wrecking the genre is as stupid as blaming Howard for wrecking the genre for creating Conan, and having a legion of drooling morons hacking at it.

Man, blame any other thing on the state of fantasy these days. Tolkien wrote some really great books, because that's what he wanted to with his fantasy. He's dead since 1973. Don't blame him for the utter crokcs of shit that Ed Greenwood, R.A. Salvatore or the next hack have written. I love Leiber, Howard, Poul Anderson, Moorcock and the sword & sorcery as much as anyone, but Tolkien is not to blame.

Quote from: ImperatorThe fucking Judgement Day must be upon us, because for the first time I fucking disagree with Balbinus!

Dude, that's a very wrong argument. Tolkien didn't wreck the genre: he made something that was different in the time his books were released. If you want to put the blame on someone, blame the legions of drooling hacks that have made the tolkienesque fantasy the cliché that is these days. Blaming Tolkien for wrecking the genre is as stupid as blaming Howard for wrecking the genre for creating Conan, and having a legion of drooling morons hacking at it.

Man, blame any other thing on the state of fantasy these days. Tolkien wrote some really great books, because that's what he wanted to with his fantasy. He's dead since 1973. Don't blame him for the utter crokcs of shit that Ed Greenwood, R.A. Salvatore or the next hack have written. I love Leiber, Howard, Poul Anderson, Moorcock and the sword & sorcery as much as anyone, but Tolkien is not to blame.

Eh, I see your point, the problem isn't Tolkein but rather those who were too unimaginative to do anything but copy him.

Can I blame DnD?  I think that is actually quite a big factor in the growth of fat fantasy oddly enough.