Quote from: mattormegI see it a little differently. In the Conan stories, when civilization becomes utterly decadent, smug and self-absorbed (just like your swine), they become prey to those that they consider primitive, like Conan.

In a sense, Conan was anti-elitist.  Howard was the type always looked down upon by the uppercrust who seemed to have less ability than him.  The 20's and 30's was a time rife with social tension throughout the world.  The U.S. was only 3 steps away from a socialist revolution.

Conan wasn't all primal barbarian either - a common theme in stories is Conan using wits to defeat physically superior monsters - apes, subhumans, etc.  There are also times where Conan wins by being a superior general, outthinking superior numbrs.  Conan is actually very modern in that he's self defined and disdains neither the physical nor the mental.

Quote from: blakkieDon't you get it?  RPGPundit buys into the Conans of the world being primitive. He is the very type of person that the Conan persona rails against, and he simply cannot accept that his 'civilized mind' could be defeated by such brawn.

You're kidding, right? I'm the guy who wrote the blog entry message to the western world about how, sooner or later, "The third world will devour you".
For exactly the kind of reasons we're discussing here.

RPGPundit

Quote from: GrimGentAnd strangely enough, you can still play CoC without being disturbed by the Mythos interpretation of science as something ultimately harmful because it reveals truths that humanity is incapable of accepting without sinking into madness, or bothered by the knowledge that none of that is anywhere near what the author of the original stories actually believed.

Hey, when I play CoC I keep it very close to the original Lovecraftian intent. Including the parts about Basques and Picts not really being human.

RPGPundit
1/4 basque

Quote from: mattormegI see it a little differently. In the Conan stories, when civilization becomes utterly decadent, smug and self-absorbed (just like your swine), they become prey to those that they consider primitive, like Conan. If you think about it that way, it is awfully similar to your own ideas about RPG swine and their rejection of "stupid" adventure gaming, with you and your ilk - myself being included to some extent - being the barbarians that come in and reset everything. Remember, Conan eventually became King.

Hang on, I'll grab your broadsword:

Look, I accept the premise and understand it, but in my views I'm NOT Conan. I' m the guy that despises the decadent Swine just like Conan does, specifically because he knows that the brute-force barbarians, the Conans of the world, will destroy civilization because of them.
I'm the guy who would try to kill both of them. Try to kill the decadent smug-self absorbed swine that have let civilization slide into weakness, and kill the barbarians at the gates that only want to tear everything down.
I'd be the lone dude in the last frontier, trying to save civilization from itself and from the menace that will try to overrun it.

Which is, incidentally, pretty much the situation western civilization finds itself in now.

RPGPundit

Tacitus.

Quote from: RPGPunditYou're kidding, right? I'm the guy who wrote the blog entry message to the western world about how, sooner or later, "The third world will devour you".
For exactly the kind of reasons we're discussing here.

Through brawn? No.  Besides, as was pointed out Conan is more embodied by Joe Lunchbucket from Idaho than semi-retired academic pundit in SA.

QuoteWhich is, incidentally, pretty much the situation western civilization finds itself in now.

Are you talking down the western world here???  OMFG! U-S-A! Love it or leave it!  Oh wait, you never were in it, and if had been you did leave it.

Quote from: SettembriniTacitus.

Bless you!

Quote from: Hastur T. FannonWhat the "Sons of Ether" did might have been Science!, but it was never science.  The scientific method was anathema to them because it was just too slow.

The problem with the scientific method in the consensual reality was that unless you could somehow investigate the primal layer of existence which consisted of Quintessence, the Patterns, and the Avatars, it didn't really work all that well. The Etherites simply tried to deal with this dilemma as best they could.

(Where did that reference to vaccinations come from, by the way? It sounds like a Techie conspiracy from the days of 1e. Or Pentex, for that matter, although they are from a different game.)

It's interesting to note that the OP has frequently launched tirades againast America, referring to it as a "14 year old retarded bully" and so on, then condemns attacks against the west.

I wonder if the OP doesn't consider America to be part of "the west" or thinks it's the part of the west that's Ok to dump on.:confused:

Quote from: Dominus NoxIt's interesting to note that the OP has frequently launched tirades againast America, referring to it as a "14 year old retarded bully" and so on, then condemns attacks against the west.

I wonder if the OP doesn't consider America to be part of "the west" or thinks it's the part of the west that's Ok to dump on.:confused:

Perhaps he just doesn't make the common mistake of thinking America and the West are the same thing.

Quote from: Dominus NoxIt's interesting to note that the OP has frequently launched tirades againast America, referring to it as a "14 year old retarded bully" and so on, then condemns attacks against the west.

I wonder if the OP doesn't consider America to be part of "the west" or thinks it's the part of the west that's Ok to dump on.:confused:

America is both the best and the worst of the west.  In its original vision, the ideal of the founding fathers, it was the absolute apex of western civilization; everything civilization had been all about had lead to that point.
In practice, and especially in its current administration, it is the "14 year old retarded bully".

I rail against it not because its a part of western civilization, but because I can see it being responsible for the downfall of western civilization.  I attack America today because I desperately want to save western civilization.

RPGPundit

Quote from: blakkieBut "without any work done on how to blend"? Sorry, but you are definately off the mark there.

  Well, I'm willing to stand corrected but from what I've seen, the blending of the genres is entirely cosmetic.  There's no attempt to reconcile the largely contradictory themes of fantasy literature with cyberpunk literature.  So instead of a blend of fantasy and cyberpunk you get either cyberpunk with a few fantasy tropes sprinkled on top or you have fantasy with big guns and metal bits.

  In many ways this isn't surprising as few gamers or game designers put much thought into how genres operate beyond the cosmetic level.  But I think it's a problem... if I was reviewing a novel and it pulled a stunt like that I'd call it intellectually bankrupt and I'd be hypocritical if I didn't apply the same standards to Shadowrun.  I mean, there's a reason why Gibson hates it

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalIf you read any postmodern philosophy of science

Does slogging through the first couple pages of The Archaeology of Knowledge count?

I'm sure it does, so...yeah...

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalI mean, there's a reason why Gibson hates it

Probably for the same reason that some writers despise Neil Gaiman: he took an existing work (Shakespeare's Midsummer Night's Dream), and created something new and successful out of it. Hell, after Gaiman's comic book version won the World Fantasy Award, they changed the rules so that no other comic could ever win it again.

Gibson may be one of Shadowrun's roots, but the game certainly doesn't limit itself to him.

Quote from: SettembriniTacitus.

I would have said Aëtius but this is probably more on the mark.