One attitude I utterly despise in many RPGs is the ideology of anti-westernism; where in a game, everything that is a product of western civilization is without a doubt evil and oppressive, unlike the "wise inscrutable" eastern sages or the "mystical, ecologically caring" indians.  I mean fuck, besides the fact that you're basically saying "democracy and human rights suck"; do you not realize at the same time that you're being unbelievably racist, by falling into those orientalist and "Noble savage" stereotypes?

Likewise, the notion that science is somehow the evil oppresor, and that magic/paganism whatever is better for mankind. This ties in with the notion you see in some games (including the occasional fantasy game) where "civilization" is hopelessly inferior to the Barbarian state.   Both of these ideas are utterly assinine, and I love how the biggest fans of them, the wiccan "earth-mothers" who hate evil science becuase it involves.. you know: MATH, and it doesn't recognize their authorities as powerful magical women even though they don't actually do fuck all; and the obsessive Conan-fanboy going on and on about how barbarism is ultimately superior to the "weak" civilized men and their deceitful ways while he puffs away on his inhaler; tend almost always to be people who would be utterly LOST without the comforts that western civilization has afforded them.  They are right in only one sense: ours is the only society "weakly" compassionate enough to allow people as useless and stupid as they are to live.

Anyways, when did all these attitudes sneak their way into gaming? Because they certainly appear often enough?  The "barbarian superiority" meme can be traced all the way back to Conan (people don't get that the dude who wrote Conan was a first-rate psychopath and virulent racist, and even he probably didn't actually BELIEVE the tripe he was writing, he was just writing from Conan's pov). But pretty well all of the others, and the emphasis they have in games these days, is traceable to White Wolf and its gang of oxygen-consumers; who's general gist has always been that it would somehow be better for "civilization" if a tiny elite of "special people" were running everything instead of big bad democracy and free will.

Cause, you know, those are evil Western concepts.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditOne attitude I utterly despise in many RPGs is the ideology of anti-westernism; where in a game, everything that is a product of western civilization is without a doubt evil and oppressive, unlike the "wise inscrutable" eastern sages or the "mystical, ecologically caring" indians.  I mean fuck, besides the fact that you're basically saying "democracy and human rights suck"; do you not realize at the same time that you're being unbelievably racist, by falling into those orientalist and "Noble savage" stereotypes?

Likewise, the notion that science is somehow the evil oppresor, and that magic/paganism whatever is better for mankind. This ties in with the notion you see in some games (including the occasional fantasy game) where "civilization" is hopelessly inferior to the Barbarian state.   Both of these ideas are utterly assinine, and I love how the biggest fans of them, the wiccan "earth-mothers" who hate evil science becuase it involves.. you know: MATH, and it doesn't recognize their authorities as powerful magical women even though they don't actually do fuck all; and the obsessive Conan-fanboy going on and on about how barbarism is ultimately superior to the "weak" civilized men and their deceitful ways while he puffs away on his inhaler; tend almost always to be people who would be utterly LOST without the comforts that western civilization has afforded them.  They are right in only one sense: ours is the only society "weakly" compassionate enough to allow people as useless and stupid as they are to live.

Anyways, when did all these attitudes sneak their way into gaming? Because they certainly appear often enough?  The "barbarian superiority" meme can be traced all the way back to Conan (people don't get that the dude who wrote Conan was a first-rate psychopath and virulent racist, and even he probably didn't actually BELIEVE the tripe he was writing, he was just writing from Conan's pov). But pretty well all of the others, and the emphasis they have in games these days, is traceable to White Wolf and its gang of oxygen-consumers; who's general gist has always been that it would somehow be better for "civilization" if a tiny elite of "special people" were running everything instead of big bad democracy and free will.

Cause, you know, those are evil Western concepts.

RPGPundit

Besides Conan I'm having a hard time rembering any games that gave me this sort of idea. Do you have othere examples?

Given that the ideas you are railing against appear in Conan (and obviously Kull as well) that's seems like at least one likely source.  Toilken's "noble savages" rode elephants.

Frankly those weren't "anti-Western" at all. In a lot of ways they are more head-patting points of view, which were quite common among european society (which includes a sizable slice of the US) for that era.

EDIT: I will say I sometimes marvel at the "katanas can cut through anything" mindset.  Although technically katanas have a slightly harder steel on their edge than european swords, due to the heat treating that also gives them their characteristic curves, the truth is either are more than able to cut through bones and neither is particularly good at slashing through any metal of note.  Ironically some of the hardest edges on swords are some very old ones that come china. But hard is just generally a trade-off against tough.

Quote from: McrowBesides Conan I'm having a hard time rembering any games that gave me this sort of idea. Do you have othere examples?

oMage and oWerewolf immediately leap to mind

Dude, talking smack about Conan?  I'm utterly flabbergasted.

Quote from: RPGPundit(people don't get that the dude who wrote Conan was a first-rate psychopath and virulent racist, and even he probably didn't actually BELIEVE the tripe he was writing, he was just writing from Conan's pov)

Some time back I read an interesting article which posited that Howard wasn't a "virulent" racist, but was more a product of his environment. Besides, "virulent" is a pretty strong term to use - Howard wasn't out lynching people. Yes, he certainly had a racist attitude, I won't argue that. L. Sprague deCamp sanitized the Conan stories, at least, so that attitude didn't come through as strongly in the stories he edited. But Howard didn't seem anymore racist than, say, Sax Rohmer with his "Fu Manchu" stories. Not trying to minimize it, it's just that "virulent" is a pretty strong word.

As for him being a psychopath...Howard was certainly socially maladjusted, but I wouldn't say he was psychopathic. It cheapens the term to use it that casually.

But, beyond those points, I agree with what you're saying.

I think it's more a case of anti-Technology and anti-"Lie driven society" than anti-Western Civilization. to use one of the WoD examples, werewolves avoid the city because that's where the Wyrm is, not because that's where Western Civilization is. They'd be just as likely to avoid a Korean city as they would Los Angeles.

Guys, the rant is about White Wolf I think, not Conan.

Once again, I don't think WW is the source of all evil - rancid perhaps but their influence isn't that broad.

Much of the noble savage/civilization is flawed thought comes from the 19th Romantic movement.  I believe it was Rousseau who coined the term noble savage.  (Not an expert in the period) I think was was partly a reaction to the rapid changes brought on by industrialization and the Enlightenment - stop the progress, I want to get off.  This attitude is reflected in the long winded English and American 19th century poetry espousing how great it would be to spend all day masturbating in the forest.

I think the process of inventing the Wiccan religion (it's as much an invention and an idealized view as a revival) is a rebirth of Romantic reactionism.  To me, the thinking seems to go from "Science and modern society create evil" which is true since some byproducts are bad to "Science and society create all evil"  which is just silly.  For one thing, it ignores historical and anthropological evidence that uncivilized cultures are/were just as conniving and violent as civilized ones.  

RPGs also reflect the oddities of the world around them.  "Damn, those Asians really know how to mystically arrange their furniture."  "Eat like people in undeveloped regions and you'll never get cancer."

I think part of the superior barbarian in rpgs comes from D&D.  In part, it's a reflection the pulp sources.  In part, it's due to the specific history and power creep.  Barbarians were an add on - most of the Unearthed Arcana stuff was higher powered, with all kinds of extra perks - the cavalier is as off as the barbarian.  I think most rpgs have bought into the same model of barbarians since then - afraid of/resistant to magic, superior constitution, connection animals, and all that.

Quote from: Hastur T. FannonoMage and oWerewolf immediately leap to mind

The Technocracy in Mage wasn't the enemy of the Traditions because it advocated technology, though, but because it was fundamentally opposed to "democracy and human rights" and violently sought to eradicate all other ideologies than its own by either executing or brainwashing every "thought criminal" and "reality deviant". They were the self-appointed guardians of the masses, who later came to the conclusion that the masses couldn't be trusted to make the right decisions. The problem with their agenda was totalitarianism, not that it was pursued under the guise of science.

Quote from: BalbinusGuys, the rant is about White Wolf I think, not Conan.

Well perhaps he should have mentioned WW then? Since when has he been shy about naming the game in question. Blue Rose anyone?  Oops, he did mention WW too. But then he did mention Conan (referencing the original stories, not the RPG from what I read), and that has obviously influenced games. So it was like he was answering his own question.  Frankly this sort of thing comes in everywhere.  The AD&D Ninja super-class anyone? Jebus, AD&D Druids are the ultimate RPG tree-huggers. WW didn't start the fire in RPGs, but they sure as hell tossed wood on it.  But I suspect that outside cultural influences has as much influence here as anything. Likely moreso, and as has been pointed out we've seen surges of romanticism ideas, such as the wiccan trend, in the larger sense. It comes and goes.

More specifics might be helpful here.  Because there are a number of morales of our NA society at large that people have poked fun of rejected as being questionable both in modern literature as a whole and RPGs.

P.S. This all reminds me of that early on scene in Crocodile Dundee with the aborigine, that wears the Rolex, poking fun at the salemanship of playing off the ledgend that they are all mystic all the time.

Pundit, I'm still freaked out over here.  Are you saying that the text of the most recent Conan rpg (which I don't own) either states or implies that barbarism is really better than civilization?  Cause I know a ton of Conan fans in the gaming world and none of them actually believe that.

Quote from: NicephorusThis attitude is reflected in the long winded English and American 19th century poetry espousing how great it would be to spend all day masturbating in the forest.

And they were right! No really, until a damn bear comes and eats you. :domokun:

Agreed, it's not Conan it's oMage that inspired this rant.  And much as I bust his chops he's not far off on this one - the original Mage was the game where artists, drug abusers, and anarchists saved the world from the terrors of mass production, sanitation, and modern medicine.  From what I understand the revised version toned this down signifigantly, and it's gone from the new edition.

Doesn't really bother me though, it can be an interesting world to play in.

Nicephorus is right, it predates Conan.  The seminal French gothic writer Chateaubriand for example has this as a major theme in Attala and Rene.

Thanks by the way for giving me the opportunity to reference Conan and Chateaubriand in the same paragraph.  That doesn't happen so often.