No, WotC did not put something about anti-colonialism in the D&D DMG. That's a misunderstanding caused by some people looking at a third party product by a bunch of nobodies and intentionally generating controversy by letting people think it's the DMG.
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Kind of reminds me of what I've been saying for a long time, apathy has killed more ideas than any rage, spite or hate.
The combat wheelchair and the "safety tools" all originated in third party products, both are now on the new official D&D totally not 6e book.
Ignoring those products doesn't help.
I replied to anti-colonialism is another thread, but now we have one specific to it, I'd like to repost it here because I think it has merit:
QuoteAnti-colonialism: oh boy. There's a ton to unpack here. I'm a historian at heart. Went a few years to school to get a degree in it (fat lotta good it did for me), so I know when it comes to history, you NEVER take history out of the context from when it happened. Ever. It's the #1 blunder the vast majority of people do when looking back on historical events.
Anti-colonialism is empty-headed nonsense. Most smooth brained people who bring it up think that "Colonialism" is something that just happened in the past 300 years or so, or at worst, think Western civilization is the only one who practiced it.
Guess what? Colonialism, or the act of colonizing land for multiple reasons and purposes, has been practiced within the entirely of human history, and I didn't say "recorded" either. Migration is a type of colonizing. Except with migration, you're moving the entire people from one place to another, not a small portion. So, in effect when our cave-dwelling ancestors moved from place to place, some migrated and some colonized. If we didn't colonize and migrate as a species in the early stages on humankind, we would have died out.
There is no human population that hasn't migrated and/or colonized. EVER. You name a culture, people, nation, empire that existed and I'm sure they've migrated or colonized or both.
I'm also not ignoring the fact that colonialism and migration causes detrimental effects upon peoples who are already occupying that region. I well aware of that and I accept it. That's just how it works. Peoples move an occupy space from others, and the ones who are occupied have a few options. 1. fight 2. integrate 3. move. Unfortunately, all three of these options can lead to death: 1. death through war 2. cultural death 3. potential death by migrating to other spaces, and now your people are the colonizers.
Sorry for the rant. When I see someone say "anti-colonialism", I see a moron.
However, the fact that people believe it so readily is telling in itself.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 08, 2025, 01:22:12 PMThe combat wheelchair and the "safety tools" all originated in third party products, both are now on the new official D&D totally not 6e book.
Ignoring those products doesn't help.
Safety Tools started in BDSM, swingers and leftists who had adjacent spaces in the RPG world were inevitably going to bring that over.
And I distinctly recall the combat wheel chair getting quite a bit of attention well before WOTC adopted the idea. I believe it was a minis manufacturer that had designed them for some no-name product, and then right leaning people on twitter reposted them for engagement pointss
I recommend you take Aye Rand's lessons to heart in this respect and quit dignifying and funding (hate watching) your enemies and pick your battles and hills. these people are literally kept afloat by engagement in many respects. those among us who are twittered I understand this is hard but it is required.
Quote from: Socratic-DM on January 08, 2025, 01:59:00 PMQuote from: GeekyBugle on January 08, 2025, 01:22:12 PMThe combat wheelchair and the "safety tools" all originated in third party products, both are now on the new official D&D totally not 6e book.
Ignoring those products doesn't help.
Safety Tools started in BDSM, swingers and leftists who had adjacent spaces in the RPG world were inevitably going to bring that over.
And I distinctly recall the combat wheel chair getting quite a bit of attention well before WOTC adopted the idea. I believe it was a minis manufacturer that had designed them for some no-name product, and then right leaning people on twitter reposted them for engagement pointss
I recommend you take Aye Rand's lessons to heart in this respect and quit dignifying and funding (hate watching) your enemies and pick your battles and hills. these people are literally kept afloat by engagement in many respects. those among us who are twittered I understand this is hard but it is required.
Because ignoring them has worked so well the past 30 years...
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 08, 2025, 02:02:28 PMQuote from: Socratic-DM on January 08, 2025, 01:59:00 PMQuote from: GeekyBugle on January 08, 2025, 01:22:12 PMThe combat wheelchair and the "safety tools" all originated in third party products, both are now on the new official D&D totally not 6e book.
Ignoring those products doesn't help.
Safety Tools started in BDSM, swingers and leftists who had adjacent spaces in the RPG world were inevitably going to bring that over.
And I distinctly recall the combat wheel chair getting quite a bit of attention well before WOTC adopted the idea. I believe it was a minis manufacturer that had designed them for some no-name product, and then right leaning people on twitter reposted them for engagement pointss
I recommend you take Aye Rand's lessons to heart in this respect and quit dignifying and funding (hate watching) your enemies and pick your battles and hills. these people are literally kept afloat by engagement in many respects. those among us who are twittered I understand this is hard but it is required.
Because ignoring them has worked so well the past 30 years...
conceding ground and not dignifying your enemy are not to be confused with one another.
Quote from: Socratic-DM on January 08, 2025, 02:05:44 PMQuote from: GeekyBugle on January 08, 2025, 02:02:28 PMQuote from: Socratic-DM on January 08, 2025, 01:59:00 PMQuote from: GeekyBugle on January 08, 2025, 01:22:12 PMThe combat wheelchair and the "safety tools" all originated in third party products, both are now on the new official D&D totally not 6e book.
Ignoring those products doesn't help.
Safety Tools started in BDSM, swingers and leftists who had adjacent spaces in the RPG world were inevitably going to bring that over.
And I distinctly recall the combat wheel chair getting quite a bit of attention well before WOTC adopted the idea. I believe it was a minis manufacturer that had designed them for some no-name product, and then right leaning people on twitter reposted them for engagement pointss
I recommend you take Aye Rand's lessons to heart in this respect and quit dignifying and funding (hate watching) your enemies and pick your battles and hills. these people are literally kept afloat by engagement in many respects. those among us who are twittered I understand this is hard but it is required.
Because ignoring them has worked so well the past 30 years...
conceding ground and not dignifying your enemy are not to be confused with one another.
Yeah, because not showing to the fight is totally different from ceding ground...
You keep playing the Ostritch, I'll keep doing my thing.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 08, 2025, 02:18:13 PMYeah, because not showing to the fight is totally different from ceding ground...
You keep playing the Ostritch, I'll keep doing my thing.
You argue with people on twitter and change no minds, don't flatter yourself.
I simply threw pearls, whether you be swine or man is a choice unto you.
Quote from: Socratic-DM on January 08, 2025, 02:27:24 PMQuote from: GeekyBugle on January 08, 2025, 02:18:13 PMYeah, because not showing to the fight is totally different from ceding ground...
You keep playing the Ostritch, I'll keep doing my thing.
You argue with people on twitter and change no minds, don't flatter yourself. culture is changed upstream, not downstream.
I simply threw pearls, whether you be swine or man is a choice unto you.
EDIT: Oops I meant to edit something but I guess I double replied.
If any of these players end up at my table - it will be a 50/50 shot their minds will be blown inward or outward.
Quote from: Socratic-DM on January 08, 2025, 02:27:24 PMQuote from: GeekyBugle on January 08, 2025, 02:18:13 PMYeah, because not showing to the fight is totally different from ceding ground...
You keep playing the Ostritch, I'll keep doing my thing.
You argue with people on twitter and change no minds, don't flatter yourself.
I simply threw pearls, whether you be swine or man is a choice unto you.
Thank you oh wise sage!
FFS
I am a little sick of the weak folks using the words "colonizer" and everything tied to it. They should say what the truth is and what really irks them, "conqueror".
Quote from: tenbones on January 08, 2025, 02:44:03 PMIf any of these players end up at my table - it will be a 50/50 shot their minds will be blown inward or outward.
Yeah, but a bag of compressed air can only do so much, in or out.
I would like to know if Mike Shea agrees with Trump, that all the people trying to colonize the USA should be expelled.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 08, 2025, 01:22:12 PMThe combat wheelchair and the "safety tools" all originated in third party products, both are now on the new official D&D totally not 6e book.
Ignoring those products doesn't help.
Except those were popularized by Woke gamers who got excited about those ideas. This anti-colonialist screed was from a book published a YEAR ago, and that no one paid any attention to until a few anti-woke commentators decided to give it attention.
Quote from: Socratic-DM on January 08, 2025, 02:27:24 PMI simply threw pearls, whether you be swine or man is a choice unto you.
Wow, you actually portrayed yourself as the wise man throwing pearls before swine.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 08, 2025, 02:02:28 PMBecause ignoring them has worked so well the past 30 years...
I warned of this back when this new wave of "Social Justice" was just gaining momentum and people right here kept saying to ignore them.
And here we are with them entrenched in practically everything and we are a mere 5 fucking years off from the next wave and this wave has barely abated any.
Modern colonialism was fundamentally about exploiting the wealth of subjugated nations. It's a late chapter in a very old story - with a prototype in tribes seizing resources from weaker tribes in order to survive and flourish. But I think we can acknowledge colonialism is part of the bloody side of human existence whilst also recognising Old School RPG's are fine - they are something quite different and entirely benign.
Quote from: Socratic-DM on January 08, 2025, 02:27:24 PMYou argue with people on twitter and change no minds, don't flatter yourself.
You don't know that. Certainly you won't change the mind of the other person in the debate but on the internet the debate is public and you should always be aware of that.
Monsters have fascinated me all my life. Do I think monsters stand-ins for vanquished and marginalised people? No. I really don't. Quite the opposite. I think they represent the human experience of being prey to beasts of prey
The Wild: I think monsters represent our fear of predation. The idea of being helpless in a spider's web. Our ancestors had to steel themselves to hunt and forage in environments they shared with animals which were faster, stronger, and very wily (supersenstive). I think monsters are the trauma memories of our ancestors, which fermented in their imaginations during dark nights and in lonely places.
And I think the tale of the hero, shared around the fire, was probably a response these experiences of existential vulnerability: comfort and catharsis and a way of boosting the social status of the group's hunters and protectors.
Dark Humanity:* I think intelligent, evil monsters (from orcs through to devils and demons) represent the cruel, vile, sadistic, parts of human nature. We've all read sickening stories of people behaving "like devils" or "like they're possessed", as "worse than beasts". I won't give real examples because they are sickening. But I'm talking of people who have been 'trapped in the cave of the cyclops'. And of people eviscerated by invaders/occupiers and prey to rapacious gangs. I think this is the human origin stories of orcs. I'm thinking this may be what Pundit was referring to when he offered the example of monsters embodying the archetype of chaos in the video? Law and order breaks down and beasts of prey run amok. An old horror story.
* Dark here is associated with 'night' - which is scary for the same reason 'the deep' is scary. Not skin colour.
Quote from: Green Demon on January 09, 2025, 07:05:55 AMModern colonialism was fundamentally about exploiting the wealth of subjugated nations.
Not quite. There are many cases where people fled their homeland to colonize another region to escape religious or political persecution. The Puritans who colonized Massachusetts and Roman Catholics in Maryland are two prime examples of this. The Dutch South African colonies were a mixed bag of Dutch Reformed Church, Huguenots, and Protestants fleeing religious persecution in France. To say colonizing is "fundamentally about exploiting the wealth of subjugated nations" isn't quite true. It's much more nuanced than that. The driving force behind colonization does vary.
Green Demon,
I've read you comments and for the most part agree with them. Basically you're saying monsters are archetypical representations of various parts of the human psyche. That's a concept I can get behind.
But...
Quote from: Green Demon on January 09, 2025, 08:24:01 AM* Dark here is associated with 'night' - which is scary for the same reason 'the deep' is scary. Not skin colour.
It's sad we live in world where such clarifications are thought to be needed, and yet with anyone with common sense knows this as a given.
Quote from: blackstone on January 09, 2025, 08:33:10 AMQuote from: Green Demon on January 09, 2025, 07:05:55 AMModern colonialism was fundamentally about exploiting the wealth of subjugated nations.
Not quite. There are many cases where people fled their homeland to colonize another region to escape religious or political persecution. The Puritans who colonized Massachusetts and Roman Catholics in Maryland are two prime examples of this. The Dutch South African colonies were a mixed bag of Dutch Reformed Church, Huguenots, and Protestants fleeing religious persecution in France. To say colonizing is "fundamentally about exploiting the wealth of subjugated nations" isn't quite true. It's much more nuanced than that. The driving force behind colonization does vary.
I read your longer post on colonialism, up thread, and i do agree with a lot of what you wrote there. I think to some degree it's a matter of definitions. i'm not an academic on this subject - as you could tell from my loose definition 'modern colonisation'. i was thinking of the British Empire, the partitioning of Africa, and other examples of where military might has been used to subjugate another nation, administer it's government and extract it's wealth for the home nation (sometimes done under the banner of civilisation and mission).
I accept it's more nuanced. I cut the paragraph because it overshadowed the main point i wanted to make - that this alleged controversy doesn't really have anything to do with RPG's, whatever our politics - because D&D monsters have never represented ethnic groups.
Quote from: blackstone on January 09, 2025, 08:43:57 AMGreen Demon,
I've read you comments and for the most part agree with them. Basically you're saying monsters are archetypical representations of various parts of the human psyche. That's a concept I can get behind.
But...
Quote from: Green Demon on January 09, 2025, 08:24:01 AM* Dark here is associated with 'night' - which is scary for the same reason 'the deep' is scary. Not skin colour.
It's sad we live in world where such clarifications are thought to be needed, and yet with anyone with common sense knows this as a given.
Yes. I think i am. I've never felt i had a clear grasp of what an archetype is, being totally honest.
Quote from: Ruprecht on January 09, 2025, 07:31:15 AMQuote from: Socratic-DM on January 08, 2025, 02:27:24 PMYou argue with people on twitter and change no minds, don't flatter yourself.
You don't know that. Certainly you won't change the mind of the other person in the debate but on the internet the debate is public and you should always be aware of that.
You can link a great deal of radicalization, division, shrinking attention span, addiction, and overall time wasting to social media, I'm sure whatever amount of people convinced one way or the other by twitter arguments are hardly worth the time.
If you want to make real differences and change real opinions, you start with the people nearest you in relation or location.
Quote from: Green Demon on January 09, 2025, 07:05:55 AMModern colonialism was fundamentally about exploiting the wealth of subjugated nations. It's a late chapter in a very old story - with a prototype in tribes seizing resources from weaker tribes in order to survive and flourish. But I think we can acknowledge colonialism is part of the bloody side of human existence whilst also recognising Old School RPG's are fine - they are something quite different and entirely benign.
But without colonialism, I'd have a bone in my nose, wearing a grass skirt, and be an igorot axe-wielding, heart-eating, head-hunting cannibal.
Now? I'm siting here with a Coach beanie on, pondering buying some Margiela tabi boots on my other screen, while drinking Ethiopean Yirgacheffe espresso made from my Lelit Bianca espresso machine while my greyhounds snuggle around my feet as the snow drifts down and blankets my big yard in the middle of the Lone Star Republic - surrounded by gun-owning, freedom loving fellow benefactors of colonialism.
I probably wouldn't be playing, running, designing and working on publishing my own RPG's right now either.
Thanks Colonialism!
Quote from: tenbones on January 09, 2025, 11:59:13 AMThanks Colonialism!
"What have the Romans ever done for us?" :)
Quote from: Green Demon on January 09, 2025, 10:55:44 AMI accept it's more nuanced. I cut the paragraph because it overshadowed the main point i wanted to make - that this alleged controversy doesn't really have anything to do with RPG's, whatever our politics - because D&D monsters have never represented ethnic groups.
I quite agree. They're archetypical representations. Anyone who see orcs as Mexicans or black, they need to look in the mirror. That's the real racist.
Quote from: tenbones on January 09, 2025, 11:59:13 AMQuote from: Green Demon on January 09, 2025, 07:05:55 AMModern colonialism was fundamentally about exploiting the wealth of subjugated nations. It's a late chapter in a very old story - with a prototype in tribes seizing resources from weaker tribes in order to survive and flourish. But I think we can acknowledge colonialism is part of the bloody side of human existence whilst also recognising Old School RPG's are fine - they are something quite different and entirely benign.
But without colonialism, I'd have a bone in my nose, wearing a grass skirt, and be an igorot axe-wielding, heart-eating, head-hunting cannibal.
Now? I'm siting here with a Coach beanie on, pondering buying some Margiela tabi boots on my other screen, while drinking Ethiopean Yirgacheffe espresso made from my Lelit Bianca espresso machine while my greyhounds snuggle around my feet as the snow drifts down and blankets my big yard in the middle of the Lone Star Republic - surrounded by gun-owning, freedom loving fellow benefactors of colonialism.
I probably wouldn't be playing, running, designing and working on publishing my own RPG's right now either.
Thanks Colonialism!
Sarcasm or not, it's brilliant. Your self-awareness broke my brain...in a good way.
One of my directors, where I work, is from India. He's totally Americanized, but when we met he had this particular dislike for British people. And one day we were talking about history, and sure the British really fucked the Indian sub-continent. Which of course he whole-heartedly agreed (confirmation bias is a wonderful thing when wielded artfully by the right people).
Then I mentioned all his other interests - music, Cricket, his favorite clothing, what he likes *best* in modern India, his love for all things technological... and I asked him, were it not for British Colonialism where do you think you'd be? You *live* right now in a former British Colony which still largely upholds western ideals. Your *caste* was one of the lowest in India *prior* to the British coming. His head exploded too.
Now? He plays Warhammer with his sons.
Quote from: tenbones on January 09, 2025, 12:53:26 PMOne of my directors, where I work, is from India. He's totally Americanized, but when we met he had this particular dislike for British people. And one day we were talking about history, and sure the British really fucked the Indian sub-continent. Which of course he whole-heartedly agreed (confirmation bias is a wonderful thing when wielded artfully by the right people).
Then I mentioned all his other interests - music, Cricket, his favorite clothing, what he likes *best* in modern India, his love for all things technological... and I asked him, were it not for British Colonialism where do you think you'd be? You *live* right now in a former British Colony which still largely upholds western ideals. Your *caste* was one of the lowest in India *prior* to the British coming. His head exploded too.
Now? He plays Warhammer with his sons.
And yet, as vast and powerful the British Empire was, English cuisine is pretty bad. You'd think that taking over parts of the Indian sub-continent, China, and other areas, the Brits would LEARN to use the spices from the lands the British Empire occupied.
"Balderdash! It's much easier to bring them into the empire and have them prepare food for us!"
I'm sure some person in the British East India Company probably said this.
Hail Britannia!
EDIT: I do love fish and chips and Beef Wellington is overrated.
Why would the British ever learn how to cook? That's what the French and Italians are for.
Quote from: RPGPundit on January 08, 2025, 10:36:28 AMNo, WotC did not put something about anti-colonialism in the D&D DMG.
But the Monster Manual hasn't been released yet!
Maybe the kind and caring folks at WotC have something to say about "colonizing" monsters in the new book.
Didn't the new blurbs about the MM just say something about dryads, medusas and hags now being genderfluid or something?
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 09, 2025, 03:34:31 PMDidn't the new blurbs about the MM just say something about dryads, medusas and hags now being genderfluid or something?
Dryads, medusas, and hags are now both male and female. Succubae and incubi are able to flip between either sex. (This is arguably more theologically accurate, but D&D's 'demons' and 'devils' are so inaccurate in so many other ways that it doesn't help much. :) )
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on January 09, 2025, 05:29:10 PMQuote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 09, 2025, 03:34:31 PMDidn't the new blurbs about the MM just say something about dryads, medusas and hags now being genderfluid or something?
Dryads, medusas, and hags are now both male and female. Succubae and incubi are able to flip between either sex. (This is arguably more theologically accurate, but D&D's 'demons' and 'devils' are so inaccurate in so many other ways that it doesn't help much. :) )
The dryads, medusas and hags now being male is nonsensical. Those words are female in English, insofar as English even has gendered nouns. (Don't get me started on the fact that Medusa is a proper noun and her species is gorgon.)
Why are succubi and incubi even separate things if they have no fixed gender? Should rename them collectively to malcubi.
Just to add to the fun of "Anti-Colonialism", Jon Del Arroz does a read and found "Goblin Men's Rights Activists" in an example of play.
Quote from: DocJones on January 09, 2025, 02:54:36 PMQuote from: RPGPundit on January 08, 2025, 10:36:28 AMNo, WotC did not put something about anti-colonialism in the D&D DMG.
But the Monster Manual hasn't been released yet!
Maybe the kind and caring folks at WotC have something to say about "colonizing" monsters in the new book.
Based on the previews, they seem more interested in making sure every single monster can be any of their 52 genders.
I always pictured sniveling and grovelling goblins more as simp male feminists personally to curry favor with whomever they're trying to ingratiate themsevles.
I asked Grok to make some more "inclusive" succubus art for the new Monster Manual, since the older TSR monster manuals were "colonized" by attractive white people.
(https://jlsysinc.gotdns.com/succubus.jpg)
Quote from: DocJones on January 09, 2025, 09:37:35 PMI asked Grok to make some more "inclusive" succubus art for the new Monster Manual, since the older TSR monster manuals were "colonized" by attractive white people.
(https://jlsysinc.gotdns.com/succubus.jpg)
I'm dying to know what prompt you used for that. Did you have to get specific, or was it enough to just enter, "inclusive and body positive succubus"?
Quote from: Corolinth on January 09, 2025, 10:04:19 PMI'm dying to know what prompt you used for that. Did you have to get specific, or was it enough to just enter, "inclusive and body positive succubus"?
I got specific. I think it was...
"Draw a morbidly obese succubus with demon horns, fangs and bat wings."
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 09, 2025, 06:07:47 PMQuote from: Armchair Gamer on January 09, 2025, 05:29:10 PMQuote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 09, 2025, 03:34:31 PMDidn't the new blurbs about the MM just say something about dryads, medusas and hags now being genderfluid or something?
Dryads, medusas, and hags are now both male and female. Succubae and incubi are able to flip between either sex. (This is arguably more theologically accurate, but D&D's 'demons' and 'devils' are so inaccurate in so many other ways that it doesn't help much. :) )
The dryads, medusas and hags now being male is nonsensical. Those words are female in English, insofar as English even has gendered nouns. (Don't get me started on the fact that Medusa is a proper noun and her species is gorgon.)
Why are succubi and incubi even separate things if they have no fixed gender? Should rename them collectively to malcubi.
Yeah, it's hard to imagine the Powers of Hell would create a demon that can be thwarted by being gay, so it makes sense to give them some genderbending powers. I've seen the word "hamadryad" used to talk about a male tree spirit, but, I don't know the origin of that term. Gorgons are specifically female, but they also have a specific origin story which probably doesn't apply to D&D.
Quote from: ForgottenF on January 09, 2025, 11:45:44 PMYeah, it's hard to imagine the Powers of Hell would create a demon that can be thwarted by being gay
Is it? Easy for me -- being thwarted by tiny loophole details is exactly how tons of myths work. Éowyn practically leaps to mind here.
Quote from: ForgottenF on January 09, 2025, 11:45:44 PMI've seen the word "hamadryad" used to talk about a male tree spirit, but, I don't know the origin of that term.
Hamadryad means "she who lives together with her tree." She is a dryad that is bound to a single tree. It's not clear in Greek myth if they're distinct or synonymous. D&D's dryad conflates the two.
There are no male tree spirits in Greek myth.
QuoteGorgons are specifically female, but they also have a specific origin story which probably doesn't apply to D&D.
As of D&D 5e, their default origin story was changed to this odd "someone who made a pact with hell for beauty, then years later they turn into a monster for some reason."
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 10, 2025, 07:54:50 AMQuoteGorgons are specifically female, but they also have a specific origin story which probably doesn't apply to D&D.
As of D&D 5e, their default origin story was changed to this odd "someone who made a pact with hell for beauty, then years later they turn into a monster for some reason."
Hasn't the D&D gorgon been a bull-like creature that breaths out petrifying gas for a long time?
Quote from: HappyDaze on January 10, 2025, 08:04:08 AMQuote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 10, 2025, 07:54:50 AMQuoteGorgons are specifically female, but they also have a specific origin story which probably doesn't apply to D&D.
As of D&D 5e, their default origin story was changed to this odd "someone who made a pact with hell for beauty, then years later they turn into a monster for some reason."
Hasn't the D&D gorgon been a bull-like creature that breaths out petrifying gas for a long time?
I think he maybe talking about the classical Greek Gorgon, not the D&D version.
Quote from: DocJones on January 09, 2025, 09:37:35 PMI asked Grok to make some more "inclusive" succubus art for the new Monster Manual, since the older TSR monster manuals were "colonized" by attractive white people.
(https://jlsysinc.gotdns.com/succubus.jpg)
That is simply hideous. Horrifying.
Well done, sir.
Now if you'll excuse me...
(frantically looking for a bottle of bleach to wash out eyes)
Quote from: blackstone on January 10, 2025, 09:15:28 AM(https://cdn.imgpile.com/f/wv6DT3U_md.GIF)
No.
Chef Ramsay's gonna get you.
Quote from: ForgottenF on January 09, 2025, 11:45:44 PMQuote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 09, 2025, 06:07:47 PMQuote from: Armchair Gamer on January 09, 2025, 05:29:10 PMQuote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 09, 2025, 03:34:31 PMDidn't the new blurbs about the MM just say something about dryads, medusas and hags now being genderfluid or something?
Dryads, medusas, and hags are now both male and female. Succubae and incubi are able to flip between either sex. (This is arguably more theologically accurate, but D&D's 'demons' and 'devils' are so inaccurate in so many other ways that it doesn't help much. :) )
The dryads, medusas and hags now being male is nonsensical. Those words are female in English, insofar as English even has gendered nouns. (Don't get me started on the fact that Medusa is a proper noun and her species is gorgon.)
Why are succubi and incubi even separate things if they have no fixed gender? Should rename them collectively to malcubi.
Yeah, it's hard to imagine the Powers of Hell would create a demon that can be thwarted by being gay, so it makes sense to give them some genderbending powers. I've seen the word "hamadryad" used to talk about a male tree spirit, but, I don't know the origin of that term. Gorgons are specifically female, but they also have a specific origin story which probably doesn't apply to D&D.
Because it was for that reason that WotC decided to change it around, not for ideological reasons.
Quote from: blackstone on January 10, 2025, 09:15:28 AMQuote from: SmallMountaineer on January 10, 2025, 08:57:23 AMQuote from: blackstone on January 09, 2025, 01:35:37 PMBeef Wellington is overrated.
Get out.
(https://cdn.imgpile.com/f/wv6DT3U_md.GIF)
No.
Greetings!
Yeah, Blackstone! I must agree. Beef Wellington is overrated.
I actually recently had the whole little meat-pie things, with Beef Wellington. They were *ok*. Decent, I would eat them again, if they were offered to me, but honestly, they are not a food item I would ever ask for or seek out.
Yes, I'm biased. I would much rather have a nice, fresh-made Carne Asada burrito, stuffed with lots of melted Cheddar Cheese, some fresh Guacamole, salsa, chopped onions and cilantro, diced tomatoes, and just a bit of Mexican rice mixed in. *Laughing*
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: blackstone on January 10, 2025, 08:43:47 AMQuote from: HappyDaze on January 10, 2025, 08:04:08 AMQuote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 10, 2025, 07:54:50 AMQuoteGorgons are specifically female, but they also have a specific origin story which probably doesn't apply to D&D.
As of D&D 5e, their default origin story was changed to this odd "someone who made a pact with hell for beauty, then years later they turn into a monster for some reason."
Hasn't the D&D gorgon been a bull-like creature that breaths out petrifying gas for a long time?
I think he maybe talking about the classical Greek Gorgon, not the D&D version.
I'm talking about the Greek gorgon and D&D medusa. 5e changed them from a race to vain individuals uglified as a result of a pact with hell. It's a silly origin because vain people would never agree to become hideous monsters. Neither is there any benefit for the patron of this deal. (A lot of the new monster origins in 5e suffer from poor writing like this.)
Quote from: SHARK on January 10, 2025, 09:37:37 AMI would much rather have a nice, fresh-made Carne Asada burrito, stuffed with lots of melted Cheddar Cheese, some fresh Guacamole, salsa, chopped onions and cilantro, diced tomatoes, and just a bit of Mexican rice mixed in. *Laughing*
OMG YES, with a nice ice cold Dos Equis to wash it down.
(Side note: I'm making chicken enchiladas with green sauce this weekend. I'm soo looking forward to it.)
Quote from: SmallMountaineer on January 10, 2025, 09:34:49 AMQuote from: blackstone on January 10, 2025, 09:15:28 AM(https://cdn.imgpile.com/f/wv6DT3U_md.GIF)
No.
Chef Ramsay's gonna get you.
Let him. I actually like the man. The things he's done for active duty military is commendable. The episode he did down in Ft Benning was awesome. Hunting down wild boar and doing a huge pig roast for the troops? Too cool!
But the whole frozen food line? Dude, you always preached fresh food to cook. and now frozen Beef Wellington bites? I gotta tell ya, I'm disappointed.
Quote from: blackstone on January 10, 2025, 10:52:38 AMQuote from: SmallMountaineer on January 10, 2025, 09:34:49 AMQuote from: blackstone on January 10, 2025, 09:15:28 AM(https://cdn.imgpile.com/f/wv6DT3U_md.GIF)
No.
Chef Ramsay's gonna get you.
Let him. I actually like the man. The things he's done for active duty military is commendable. The episode he did down in Ft Benning was awesome. Hunting down wild boar and doing a huge pig roast for the troops? Too cool!
But the whole frozen food line? Dude, you always preached fresh food to cook. and now frozen Beef Wellington bites? I gotta tell ya, I'm disappointed.
That's all perfectly fair, I'm only defending actual beef wellington, not that tosh.
Quote from: SmallMountaineer on January 10, 2025, 11:11:36 AMQuote from: blackstone on January 10, 2025, 10:52:38 AMQuote from: SmallMountaineer on January 10, 2025, 09:34:49 AMQuote from: blackstone on January 10, 2025, 09:15:28 AM(https://cdn.imgpile.com/f/wv6DT3U_md.GIF)
No.
Chef Ramsay's gonna get you.
Let him. I actually like the man. The things he's done for active duty military is commendable. The episode he did down in Ft Benning was awesome. Hunting down wild boar and doing a huge pig roast for the troops? Too cool!
But the whole frozen food line? Dude, you always preached fresh food to cook. and now frozen Beef Wellington bites? I gotta tell ya, I'm disappointed.
That's all perfectly fair, I'm only defending actual beef wellington, not that tosh.
Tosh? Ah, you ARE English.
I was just poking fun. Besides, I got married there (Leeds Castle).
To get back on topic...
It's not like D&D has been authentic to any myths, but in this instance they're literally defying the dictionary by making specifically female creatures genderfluid. This just creates unnecessary confusion when they could've combed folklore for suitable monsters to adapt or just made male counterparts up wholesale.
Dryad: There are a few male tree spirits in European folklore, but they're generally an Old Man of the Woods, not hot young man of the woods. The closest I can find is the Scottish Ghillie Dhu, or "dark-haired lad".
Hag: Old ugly evil wizard? There's a lot of those in folklore, but they're never specifically called out the way that hags are. Patriarchy, I guess? Anyway, just call him Rutterkin. It means "sly old fox".
Medusa: D&D already has the maedar. Bald, turns flesh to stone, and has a venomous gaze as of 4e. Use him. They should really be called gorgons anyway
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 10, 2025, 02:43:02 PMDryad: There are a few male tree spirits in European folklore, but they're generally an Old Man of the Woods, not hot young man of the woods. The closest I can find is the Scottish Ghillie Dhu, or "dark-haired lad".
The term I've found in research for non-OGL monsters for a male tree spirit is Drus... which actually fits well with Dryad so I decided to use it.
Quote from: Chris24601 on January 10, 2025, 08:31:48 PMQuote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 10, 2025, 02:43:02 PMDryad: There are a few male tree spirits in European folklore, but they're generally an Old Man of the Woods, not hot young man of the woods. The closest I can find is the Scottish Ghillie Dhu, or "dark-haired lad".
The term I've found in research for non-OGL monsters for a male tree spirit is Drus... which actually fits well with Dryad so I decided to use it.
I like the Age of Sigmar/Soulbound take on Sylvaneth when referring to the overall class of wood spirits. There are lithe female dryads and hulking male treemen (quite a bit of sexual dimorphism there) as well as the revenants (tree spirits shaped by the souls of deceased wood aelves) that appear in both genders. There are more beyond these too (e.g., the Kurnoth Hunters), and most of the Sylvaneth are not strictly bound by gender.
Quote from: Socratic-DM on January 08, 2025, 01:07:45 PMKind of reminds me of what I've been saying for a long time, apathy has killed more ideas than any rage, spite or hate.
The painful truth.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 08, 2025, 01:22:12 PMThe combat wheelchair and the "safety tools" all originated in third party products, both are now on the new official D&D totally not 6e book.
Ignoring those products doesn't help.
There is still no combat wheelchair in 5e. Just a single picture (and only a picture) of a guy in a wheelchair (looks like an ordinary one). No rules about them. No text. None of that.
The "safety tools" is an optional rule buried in the DMG. Like any other optional rule a DM can use. You don't like it, don't use it. Nobody is forcing people to use optional DMG rules, Indeed, MOST DMG optional rules from 2014 went unused at like 99% of tables.
But how dare people use a rule at their table you don't like right?
Quote from: Mistwell on January 10, 2025, 10:11:53 PMQuote from: GeekyBugle on January 08, 2025, 01:22:12 PMThe combat wheelchair and the "safety tools" all originated in third party products, both are now on the new official D&D totally not 6e book.
Ignoring those products doesn't help.
There is still no combat wheelchair in 5e. Just a single picture (and only a picture) of a guy in a wheelchair (looks like an ordinary one). No rules about them. No test. None of that.
The "safety tools" is an optional rule buried in the DMG. Like any other optional rule a DM can use. You don't like it, don't use it. Nobody is forcing people to use optional DMG rules, Indeed, MOST DMG optional rules from 2014 went unused at like 99% of tables.
But how dare people use a rule at their table you don't like right?
Because that's obviously my problem, right Professor Xavier?
Fuck off you fucktard.
Quote from: SHARK on January 10, 2025, 09:37:37 AMYes, I'm biased. I would much rather have a nice, fresh-made Carne Asada burrito, stuffed with lots of melted Cheddar Cheese, some fresh Guacamole, salsa, chopped onions and cilantro, diced tomatoes, and just a bit of Mexican rice mixed in. *Laughing*
Carne Asada Burrito. Perfection in a tortilla when done San Diego style (Robertos, Albertos, and a dozen other 'tos make them the same). Hard to find in Texas but I'm still looking.
Quote from: Ruprecht on January 10, 2025, 10:53:37 PMQuote from: SHARK on January 10, 2025, 09:37:37 AMYes, I'm biased. I would much rather have a nice, fresh-made Carne Asada burrito, stuffed with lots of melted Cheddar Cheese, some fresh Guacamole, salsa, chopped onions and cilantro, diced tomatoes, and just a bit of Mexican rice mixed in. *Laughing*
Carne Asada Burrito. Perfection in a tortilla when done San Diego style (Robertos, Albertos, and a dozen other 'tos make them the same). Hard to find in Texas but I'm still looking.
Greetings!
*Laughing* That's right, Ruprecht! Yes, Carne Asada Burritos are really a superior form of food! Mexican cuisine is probably my favourite food cuisine, definitely in my top 3!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Mistwell on January 10, 2025, 10:11:53 PMQuote from: GeekyBugle on January 08, 2025, 01:22:12 PMThe combat wheelchair and the "safety tools" all originated in third party products, both are now on the new official D&D totally not 6e book.
Ignoring those products doesn't help.
There is still no combat wheelchair in 5e. Just a single picture (and only a picture) of a guy in a wheelchair (looks like an ordinary one). No rules about them. No test. None of that.
The "safety tools" is an optional rule buried in the DMG. Like any other optional rule a DM can use. You don't like it, don't use it. Nobody is forcing people to use optional DMG rules, Indeed, MOST DMG optional rules from 2014 went unused at like 99% of tables.
But how dare people use a rule at their table you don't like right?
Greetings!
Mistwell, why are you being pedantic? You are just like Jhkim, man. So, WOTC didn't *officially* include fucking combat wheelchairs in the DMG. Or whatever. So what? Where have you been? Companies *have* included combat wheelchairs in various products, there have even been miniatures produced of them for D&D. Beyond that, and more importantly, the whole idea, and ideology of talking about them, including them, and embracing a Woke sensitivity for "Representation" of disabled people--with the concurrent idea that if you don't swallow down all of this Woke BS you must be a fucking evil Nazi. Combat Wheelchairs have very much been a weaponized topic for inclusion in D&D for some time now.
You tap dancing and being pedantic about this topic, just like Jhkim does, just makes it seem like you are gaslighting everyone and being intentionally obtuse.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Mistwell on January 10, 2025, 10:11:53 PMQuote from: GeekyBugle on January 08, 2025, 01:22:12 PMThe combat wheelchair and the "safety tools" all originated in third party products, both are now on the new official D&D totally not 6e book.
Ignoring those products doesn't help.
There is still no combat wheelchair in 5e. Just a single picture (and only a picture) of a guy in a wheelchair (looks like an ordinary one). No rules about them. No text. None of that.
The "safety tools" is an optional rule buried in the DMG. Like any other optional rule a DM can use. You don't like it, don't use it. Nobody is forcing people to use optional DMG rules, Indeed, MOST DMG optional rules from 2014 went unused at like 99% of tables.
But how dare people use a rule at their table you don't like right?
I think the existence of the picture of a combat wheelchair, in the new 2024 PHB; insinuates that they do exist in the game, a.k.a. they are an option if a player character wants one.
Well why not have a colostomy bag, too? Or hearing aids? I mean, why not just insert all kinds of more modern devices into the setting?
Quote from: Mistwell on January 10, 2025, 10:11:53 PMThere is still no combat wheelchair in 5e. Just a single picture (and only a picture) of a guy in a wheelchair (looks like an ordinary one). No rules about them. No text. None of that.
The "safety tools" is an optional rule buried in the DMG. Like any other optional rule a DM can use. You don't like it, don't use it. Nobody is forcing people to use optional DMG rules, Indeed, MOST DMG optional rules from 2014 went unused at like 99% of tables.
But how dare people use a rule at their table you don't like right?
I'll translate this for folks:
"Stop complaining frog, and stay in the pot until it boils."
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 10, 2025, 02:43:02 PMTo get back on topic...
It's not like D&D has been authentic to any myths, but in this instance they're literally defying the dictionary by making specifically female creatures genderfluid. This just creates unnecessary confusion when they could've combed folklore for suitable monsters to adapt or just made male counterparts up wholesale.
Dryad: There are a few male tree spirits in European folklore, but they're generally an Old Man of the Woods, not hot young man of the woods. The closest I can find is the Scottish Ghillie Dhu, or "dark-haired lad".
Hag: Old ugly evil wizard? There's a lot of those in folklore, but they're never specifically called out the way that hags are. Patriarchy, I guess? Anyway, just call him Rutterkin. It means "sly old fox".
Medusa: D&D already has the maedar. Bald, turns flesh to stone, and has a venomous gaze as of 4e. Use him. They should really be called gorgons anyway
Good stuff
Quote from: Chris24601 on January 10, 2025, 08:31:48 PMQuote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 10, 2025, 02:43:02 PMDryad: There are a few male tree spirits in European folklore, but they're generally an Old Man of the Woods, not hot young man of the woods. The closest I can find is the Scottish Ghillie Dhu, or "dark-haired lad".
The term I've found in research for non-OGL monsters for a male tree spirit is Drus... which actually fits well with Dryad so I decided to use it.
That's fakelore. There is no "drus" in any pre-internet sources. It seems to be something someone made up and shared online.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 11, 2025, 09:27:49 AMQuote from: Chris24601 on January 10, 2025, 08:31:48 PMQuote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 10, 2025, 02:43:02 PMDryad: There are a few male tree spirits in European folklore, but they're generally an Old Man of the Woods, not hot young man of the woods. The closest I can find is the Scottish Ghillie Dhu, or "dark-haired lad".
The term I've found in research for non-OGL monsters for a male tree spirit is Drus... which actually fits well with Dryad so I decided to use it.
That's fakelore. There is no "drus" in any pre-internet sources. It seems to be something someone made up and shared online.
Perhaps. I don't mind it because it's just a slight variation on the Greek Drys (δρῦς) "tree."
Quote from: Chris24601 on January 11, 2025, 09:44:56 AMQuote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 11, 2025, 09:27:49 AMQuote from: Chris24601 on January 10, 2025, 08:31:48 PMQuote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 10, 2025, 02:43:02 PMDryad: There are a few male tree spirits in European folklore, but they're generally an Old Man of the Woods, not hot young man of the woods. The closest I can find is the Scottish Ghillie Dhu, or "dark-haired lad".
The term I've found in research for non-OGL monsters for a male tree spirit is Drus... which actually fits well with Dryad so I decided to use it.
That's fakelore. There is no "drus" in any pre-internet sources. It seems to be something someone made up and shared online.
Perhaps. I don't mind it because it's just a slight variation on the Greek Drys (δρῦς) "tree."
It
is the Greek word for tree.
Something I dislike about loanwords for myths is that the literal meaning is often lost in the loaning, so we get nonsensical folk etymologies leading to situations like thinking a "drus" is a male dryad when it is literally a tree. Likewise, the "taur" in centaur means bull and not centauroid, the hob in hobgoblin means home or hearth and not big, etc. (If it did mean big, then where are all the larger-sized hob-kobolds, hob-gnomes, hob-sprites, etc?)
The basic problem here is that English doesn't have a masculinizing affix. Words are generally assumed to be male or neuter depending on context, with a suffix like -ess indicating a female counterpart. There is the -er used in widower, but it's identical to the agent suffix used for driver, welder, etc.
You could coin "dryader" in this instance, I guess?
Anyway, the D&D dryad is derived from the Greek hamadryad, whose life was bound to her tree. (Dryad translates to "she of the tree/oak", while hamadryad translates to "she [who is] one with tree".) There really isn't any masculine version of the (hama)dryad in folklore. There are wild men of the woods, satyrs, etc., but the closest there is to the hamadryad is the Old Man of the Forest like Leshy or Oxylus, a singular god of his forest.
But the D&D 5e dryad doesn't fit any of the dryad lore at all. In this edition, they're fey who are imprisoned by being bound to trees, not the personification of their tree. It makes little sense to call them dryads now aside from ill-fitting tradition.
Quote from: HappyDaze on January 10, 2025, 08:51:06 PMQuote from: Chris24601 on January 10, 2025, 08:31:48 PMQuote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 10, 2025, 02:43:02 PMDryad: There are a few male tree spirits in European folklore, but they're generally an Old Man of the Woods, not hot young man of the woods. The closest I can find is the Scottish Ghillie Dhu, or "dark-haired lad".
The term I've found in research for non-OGL monsters for a male tree spirit is Drus... which actually fits well with Dryad so I decided to use it.
I like the Age of Sigmar/Soulbound take on Sylvaneth when referring to the overall class of wood spirits. There are lithe female dryads and hulking male treemen (quite a bit of sexual dimorphism there) as well as the revenants (tree spirits shaped by the souls of deceased wood aelves) that appear in both genders. There are more beyond these too (e.g., the Kurnoth Hunters), and most of the Sylvaneth are not strictly bound by gender.
I was going to mention Warhammer's take on succubi in this context as well, where the Daemonettes are hideous androgenous monsters, but they're supposed to possess a supernatural beauty that can fascinate anyone regardless of their personal proclivities. A lust demon that can tempt you into desires you would normally find revolting is creepier to me than one that just plays on your existing desires.
I'm researching sylvaneth, lorwyn elves and glorantha elves. I like their different takes on woodland fairies.
The D&D lore on dryads isn't consistent across editions (https://dumpstatadventures.com/blog/deep-dive-the-dryad). The pre-4e stuff generally seems to hew more towards the Greek myths and to some Celtic fairy lore like abduction. Then in 4e it abruptly turns into a pastiche of Warhammer dryads, appearing as wood creatures that could glamor themselves as fey women. Then in 5e they're created by fairy lords who imprison other fairies by binding them to trees.
I'm thinking of revising the lore...
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 11, 2025, 10:36:05 AMBut the D&D 5e dryad doesn't fit any of the dryad lore at all. In this edition, they're fey who are imprisoned by being bound to trees, not the personification of their tree. It makes little sense to call them dryads now aside from ill-fitting tradition.
D&D doesn't have elves that fit the myths of elves or dwarves that fit the myths of dwarves. D&D has long (in modern terms) been forming own modern myths that have become the norms of pop culture. I don't worry too much if monsters that also appear in other myths have little in common with D&D creatures of the same name.
Quote from: HappyDaze on January 11, 2025, 12:45:44 PMQuote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 11, 2025, 10:36:05 AMBut the D&D 5e dryad doesn't fit any of the dryad lore at all. In this edition, they're fey who are imprisoned by being bound to trees, not the personification of their tree. It makes little sense to call them dryads now aside from ill-fitting tradition.
D&D doesn't have elves that fit the myths of elves or dwarves that fit the myths of dwarves. D&D has long (in modern terms) been forming own modern myths that have become the norms of pop culture. I don't worry too much if monsters that also appear in other myths have little in common with D&D creatures of the same name.
It contradicts itself in this case and doesn't give any reason why
Quote from: Skullking on January 11, 2025, 05:09:09 AMQuote from: Mistwell on January 10, 2025, 10:11:53 PMThere is still no combat wheelchair in 5e. Just a single picture (and only a picture) of a guy in a wheelchair (looks like an ordinary one). No rules about them. No text. None of that.
I'll translate this for folks:
"Stop complaining frog, and stay in the pot until it boils."
The OP from Pundit was also about trying to dispel a misunderstanding -
Quote from: RPGPundit on January 08, 2025, 10:36:28 AMNo, WotC did not put something about anti-colonialism in the D&D DMG. That's a misunderstanding caused by some people looking at a third party product by a bunch of nobodies and intentionally generating controversy by letting people think it's the DMG.
I would say it is fine to complain, but one should be truthful and accurate about what you're complaining about. In the case of the "anti-colonialism" or the "Romancing Monsters" clips, one should be clear that they're from Sly Flourish, not from WotC.
In the case of the wheelchair, there is a picture of an NPC in a wheelchair in the 2024 PHB - namely Alanik Ray from Ravenloft. Ravenloft has had wheelchairs since 1986 when Lord Weathermay (a wheelchair-using NPC fighter) appeared in I10 Ravenloft II. However, the "combat wheelchair" was a homebrew doc for a special magic item created by Sara Thompson in 2019. That magic item has never appeared in any WotC document.
As I understand it, Pundit is calling it "fake and dumb" to show a third-party or homebrew material, and then jump to complaining about WotC for it. If one is going to complain about WotC, use their actual material, not third-party stuff.
Well, I meant it in both senses: first, the misunderstanding that it was WotC was fake news and dumb. Second, "anti-colonialist D&D" play, whether official or not, is fake (performative propaganda) and dumb.
That said I should also note that I've said that undoubtedly every single person working at WotC today would wholeheartedly agree with that 3rd party product's views about "anti-colonialist play', and what's coming out about the new Monster Manual is evidence of that.
Quote from: ForgottenF on January 09, 2025, 11:45:44 PMQuote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 09, 2025, 06:07:47 PMQuote from: Armchair Gamer on January 09, 2025, 05:29:10 PMQuote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 09, 2025, 03:34:31 PMDidn't the new blurbs about the MM just say something about dryads, medusas and hags now being genderfluid or something?
Dryads, medusas, and hags are now both male and female. Succubae and incubi are able to flip between either sex. (This is arguably more theologically accurate, but D&D's 'demons' and 'devils' are so inaccurate in so many other ways that it doesn't help much. :) )
The dryads, medusas and hags now being male is nonsensical. Those words are female in English, insofar as English even has gendered nouns. (Don't get me started on the fact that Medusa is a proper noun and her species is gorgon.)
Why are succubi and incubi even separate things if they have no fixed gender? Should rename them collectively to malcubi.
Yeah, it's hard to imagine the Powers of Hell would create a demon that can be thwarted by being gay, so it makes sense to give them some genderbending powers. I've seen the word "hamadryad" used to talk about a male tree spirit, but, I don't know the origin of that term. Gorgons are specifically female, but they also have a specific origin story which probably doesn't apply to D&D.
From the religious perspective, if the person is gay the powers of hell have their work already done. No need for corrupting anyone.
Quote from: oggsmash on January 12, 2025, 02:44:17 PMFrom the religious perspective, if the person is gay the powers of hell have their work already done. No need for corrupting anyone.
One or two religious perspectives, perhaps? There are sacred-text-compatible readings & Christian traditions that would completely disagree, not to speak some number of other religions historical or modern.
But that's another cool-ish thing that I want to see more of in my games, if I can figure out how to make it fun or interesting for the players - religions that have different interpretations of or focus on different subsets of the same things, albeit probably not as far as Glorantha goes. But think about Mediterranean syncretism - Hercules is identified with Melqart in some cities, and yet if we look at the myths I think we'd find them pretty incompatible, or the worship of Cybele in Rome dropping some of the core bits because they were too squicky for the Romans. The Arian heresy!
Like him or hate him, Varg put a spin on it with his latest game, ReconQuest:
Return to your ancestral homeland! Play as a Dwarf, Elf, Halfling, or Human, Male or Female, and take the long lost Thulê (Hyperborea) back from monstrous occupants, savages, and ancient horrors! Survive, thrive, and rebuild your ancestral homeland! Re-settle the lands your distant forebears once owned!
---from the information on Amazon
I do wonder if burning down current religious buildings built over the originals (as in previous religion) is in the setting. I don't know about the guy, he has disavowed his neo-nazism, yet he is still pretty intense.
Quote from: bat on January 15, 2025, 01:28:36 PMLike him or hate him, Varg put a spin on it with his latest game, ReconQuest:
Return to your ancestral homeland! Play as a Dwarf, Elf, Halfling, or Human, Male or Female, and take the long lost Thulê (Hyperborea) back from monstrous occupants, savages, and ancient horrors! Survive, thrive, and rebuild your ancestral homeland! Re-settle the lands your distant forebears once owned!
---from the information on Amazon
I do wonder if burning down current religious buildings built over the originals (as in previous religion) is in the setting. I don't know about the guy, he has disavowed his neo-nazism, yet he is still pretty intense.
His idiotic game is not built on authentic myth or legend, it's based on 19th century "Arianist" (including Nazi) pseudo-myth.
Quote from: RPGPundit on January 15, 2025, 04:32:53 PMQuote from: bat on January 15, 2025, 01:28:36 PMLike him or hate him, Varg put a spin on it with his latest game, ReconQuest:
Return to your ancestral homeland! Play as a Dwarf, Elf, Halfling, or Human, Male or Female, and take the long lost Thulê (Hyperborea) back from monstrous occupants, savages, and ancient horrors! Survive, thrive, and rebuild your ancestral homeland! Re-settle the lands your distant forebears once owned!
---from the information on Amazon
I do wonder if burning down current religious buildings built over the originals (as in previous religion) is in the setting. I don't know about the guy, he has disavowed his neo-nazism, yet he is still pretty intense.
His idiotic game is not built on authentic myth or legend, it's based on 19th century "Arianist" (including Nazi) pseudo-myth.
I am not arguing that fact, I am just saying he reversed the spin.
Quote from: RPGPundit on January 15, 2025, 04:32:53 PMHis idiotic game is not built on authentic myth or legend, it's based on 19th century "Arianist" (including Nazi) pseudo-myth.
Ar
yanist. Arianism is something completely different. :)
I fought those idiots when they came down from their compound when I was a teenager and have the scar to prove it, I am not condoning his racism whatsoever, I am just pointing out that he put a clever spin on the approach, 'We are not the colonists, we are the ones taking our land back!'
We have reached the point in society where my instinctual response to "neo-nazi" or "nazi" is press x to doubt.
I know fuck-all about Varg and his game. I'm not arguing what he is or is not. Just that when I see that claim made about some guy I don't know and have never heard of, I immediately assume it's just so much noise. This seems relevant to anti-colonialist D&D being fake and dumb, but if it's off-topic, go ahead and ding me for it.
Quote from: bat on January 15, 2025, 08:17:14 PMI am just pointing out that he put a clever spin on the approach, 'We are not the colonists, we are the ones taking our land back!'
So, Reconquista?
Quote from: Corolinth on January 16, 2025, 01:41:53 AMWe have reached the point in society where my instinctual response to "neo-nazi" or "nazi" is press x to doubt.
I know fuck-all about Varg and his game. I'm not arguing what he is or is not. Just that when I see that claim made about some guy I don't know and have never heard of, I immediately assume it's just so much noise. This seems relevant to anti-colonialist D&D being fake and dumb, but if it's off-topic, go ahead and ding me for it.
As Varg does design rpgs I believe it is relevant and he is pretty intense (he is one of the black metal church burners from the 90s who did time for that and stabbing a guy to death). And while he has softened on his racism (he was openly a neo-nazi while in prison) he is still not a fan of some people. I don't back him, I am just saying all they had to do is reverse the situation like he did and people might have bought into it more.
Quote from: bat on January 16, 2025, 11:11:17 AMQuote from: Corolinth on January 16, 2025, 01:41:53 AMWe have reached the point in society where my instinctual response to "neo-nazi" or "nazi" is press x to doubt.
I know fuck-all about Varg and his game. I'm not arguing what he is or is not. Just that when I see that claim made about some guy I don't know and have never heard of, I immediately assume it's just so much noise. This seems relevant to anti-colonialist D&D being fake and dumb, but if it's off-topic, go ahead and ding me for it.
As Varg does design rpgs I believe it is relevant and he is pretty intense (he is one of the black metal church burners from the 90s who did time for that and stabbing a guy to death). And while he has softened on his racism (he was openly a neo-nazi while in prison) he is still not a fan of some people. I don't back him, I am just saying all they had to do is reverse the situation like he did and people might have bought into it more.
To Corolinth's question, the following is the from the race section of Vikernes' MyFarog RPG.
QuoteDarklings and Weaklings are the names of the only known races of the swarthy and cruel Arbi species. In Thule, these semi-humans are all either savage pirates operating along the coast or vile bandits inland. Those of them who have not been killed or caught and enthralled are all seen as outlaws. They have and respect no real deities. They are filthy, vulgar, have fang-like teeth, and they eat and live very much just like (other?) predatory animals, and show no signs of wanting to change this. Darkling and Weakling characters in Thule characters have -2 Poison and Disease Resistance (due to a lack of Sunshine vitamins), -1 Cold Toughness and +1 Heat Toughness.
Foreigner is the name of the only known race of the Khemetian species. The light- to olive-skinned and often curly-haired Foreigners in Thule arrives as peaceful merchants, and operate as such many places in Thule. At first they were not welcomed, but they have eventually become tolerated or even accepted by many natives. The Foreigners not living their lives as Free Men are either Outlaws or have been enthralled. They are not natives in Thule, so they can not become Nobles. Foreigner characters in Thule have -1 Poison and Disease Resistance (due to a lack of Sunshine vitamins).
Native is the name of the most common race of the fair Thulean species. They are seen as the natives of Thule, although they were really brought there by the deities in ancient times. The Natives live in both so-called primitive nomadic tribes and in civilized and cultivated agricultural societies. What they all have in common is their divine heritage and the opportunity to become divine in death -- although not all Natives care about, acknowledge, or for that matter are even aware of this. Oblivion has taken many of them already.
(https://darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/theory/race/myfarog-race-table.png)
When bat says he is "not a fan of some people" - that is to say that he is still openly a white nationalist, and opposes non-white races.
Quote from: jhkim on January 16, 2025, 02:04:17 PMWhen bat says he is "not a fan of some people" - that is to say that he is still openly a white nationalist, and opposes non-white races.
I see there was some confusion surrounding the phrase, "I'm not arguing what he is or is not," and some of you have interpreted that as an invitation to argue with me about what Varg is or is not. Let me clarify.
We are starting Year 11 of The Little Leftist Who Cried Nazi. It's actually been going on longer than that, but 2015 is when it really got cranked up to 11. Words like "racist" or "nazi" and terms like "white nationalist" don't have any meaning anymore. It's like when the soil has been depleted of all its nutrients, and you can't grow crops. This is what the people whining about colonialism and pushing for anti-colonialist D&D have done to us.
I'm sure there are credible sources, here. You've got receipts, I'm not denying that. He's a white dude who went to prison. His choices were 1) become a neo-nazi or 2) become a woman. Since we're still referring to him as "he" that tells us which choice he made. But I'm still rolling my eyes at the accusation, nonetheless.
Quote from: Corolinth on January 16, 2025, 02:39:23 PMQuote from: jhkim on January 16, 2025, 02:04:17 PMWhen bat says he is "not a fan of some people" - that is to say that he is still openly a white nationalist, and opposes non-white races.
I see there was some confusion surrounding the phrase, "I'm not arguing what he is or is not," and some of you have interpreted that as an invitation to argue with me about what Varg is or is not. Let me clarify.
We are starting Year 11 of The Little Leftist Who Cried Nazi. It's actually been going on longer than that, but 2015 is when it really got cranked up to 11. Words like "racist" or "nazi" and terms like "white nationalist" don't have any meaning anymore. It's like when the soil has been depleted of all its nutrients, and you can't grow crops. This is what the people whining about colonialism and pushing for anti-colonialist D&D have done to us.
I'm sure there are credible sources, here. You've got receipts, I'm not denying that. He's a white dude who went to prison. His choices were 1) become a neo-nazi or 2) become a woman. Since we're still referring to him as "he" that tells us which choice he made. But I'm still rolling my eyes at the accusation, nonetheless.
From what I can tell, Varg is currently a very open and strident European ethno-nationalist of the neo-pagan variety. I think that's a label he would agree with if asked. Whether you call that a "nazi" or not is up to you. Personally, I prefer more precise terminology on this kind of topic. If you want to verify his current views, his Twitter account is up and recently active.
As far as him going to prison: Yes, but he went to prison in the 90s in Norway, so I don't think becoming a woman was an option at the time, and I don't know if their prisons have the same racial gang dynamic that ours do.
Quote from: jhkim on January 16, 2025, 02:04:17 PMQuote from: bat on January 16, 2025, 11:11:17 AMQuote from: Corolinth on January 16, 2025, 01:41:53 AMWe have reached the point in society where my instinctual response to "neo-nazi" or "nazi" is press x to doubt.
I know fuck-all about Varg and his game. I'm not arguing what he is or is not. Just that when I see that claim made about some guy I don't know and have never heard of, I immediately assume it's just so much noise. This seems relevant to anti-colonialist D&D being fake and dumb, but if it's off-topic, go ahead and ding me for it.
As Varg does design rpgs I believe it is relevant and he is pretty intense (he is one of the black metal church burners from the 90s who did time for that and stabbing a guy to death). And while he has softened on his racism (he was openly a neo-nazi while in prison) he is still not a fan of some people. I don't back him, I am just saying all they had to do is reverse the situation like he did and people might have bought into it more.
To Corolinth's question, the following is the from the race section of Vikernes' MyFarog RPG.
QuoteDarklings and Weaklings are the names of the only known races of the swarthy and cruel Arbi species. In Thule, these semi-humans are all either savage pirates operating along the coast or vile bandits inland. Those of them who have not been killed or caught and enthralled are all seen as outlaws. They have and respect no real deities. They are filthy, vulgar, have fang-like teeth, and they eat and live very much just like (other?) predatory animals, and show no signs of wanting to change this. Darkling and Weakling characters in Thule characters have -2 Poison and Disease Resistance (due to a lack of Sunshine vitamins), -1 Cold Toughness and +1 Heat Toughness.
Foreigner is the name of the only known race of the Khemetian species. The light- to olive-skinned and often curly-haired Foreigners in Thule arrives as peaceful merchants, and operate as such many places in Thule. At first they were not welcomed, but they have eventually become tolerated or even accepted by many natives. The Foreigners not living their lives as Free Men are either Outlaws or have been enthralled. They are not natives in Thule, so they can not become Nobles. Foreigner characters in Thule have -1 Poison and Disease Resistance (due to a lack of Sunshine vitamins).
Native is the name of the most common race of the fair Thulean species. They are seen as the natives of Thule, although they were really brought there by the deities in ancient times. The Natives live in both so-called primitive nomadic tribes and in civilized and cultivated agricultural societies. What they all have in common is their divine heritage and the opportunity to become divine in death -- although not all Natives care about, acknowledge, or for that matter are even aware of this. Oblivion has taken many of them already.
(https://darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/theory/race/myfarog-race-table.png)
When bat says he is "not a fan of some people" - that is to say that he is still openly a white nationalist, and opposes non-white races.
Are these from the first or second edition? He did dilute the 2nd edition from what I had heard, I bought the 1st edition and ended up throwing it away in the trash. I have a diverse table and I don't entertain those views at my table. I am not a fan of Varg, he does make rpgs and for some reason ReconQuest came up as a suggestion on Amazon, more than likely because I teach world mythologies and I am a heathen, I am just not a white supremacist by any stretch of the imagination.
Quote from: ForgottenF on January 16, 2025, 03:09:19 PMQuote from: Corolinth on January 16, 2025, 02:39:23 PMQuote from: jhkim on January 16, 2025, 02:04:17 PMWhen bat says he is "not a fan of some people" - that is to say that he is still openly a white nationalist, and opposes non-white races.
I see there was some confusion surrounding the phrase, "I'm not arguing what he is or is not," and some of you have interpreted that as an invitation to argue with me about what Varg is or is not. Let me clarify.
We are starting Year 11 of The Little Leftist Who Cried Nazi. It's actually been going on longer than that, but 2015 is when it really got cranked up to 11. Words like "racist" or "nazi" and terms like "white nationalist" don't have any meaning anymore. It's like when the soil has been depleted of all its nutrients, and you can't grow crops. This is what the people whining about colonialism and pushing for anti-colonialist D&D have done to us.
I'm sure there are credible sources, here. You've got receipts, I'm not denying that. He's a white dude who went to prison. His choices were 1) become a neo-nazi or 2) become a woman. Since we're still referring to him as "he" that tells us which choice he made. But I'm still rolling my eyes at the accusation, nonetheless.
From what I can tell, Varg is currently a very open and strident European ethno-nationalist of the neo-pagan variety. I think that's a label he would agree with if asked. Whether you call that a "nazi" or not is up to you. Personally, I prefer more precise terminology on this kind of topic. If you want to verify his current views, his Twitter account is up and recently active.
As far as him going to prison: Yes, but he went to prison in the 90s in Norway, so I don't think becoming a woman was an option at the time, and I don't know if their prisons have the same racial gang dynamic that ours do.
If you watch the documentary on Black Metal, 'Until the Light takes Us' (currently on Amazon, was on Tubi, might still be) Varg is in it and clearly is dressed as a neo-nazi in some of the pictures shown. Allegedly he has mellowed out, he does not like the 'Big Three' at all (Abrahamic religions).
Edit: Let's not give him any traction, I only mention this spin on 'colonizing' that he presents in his latest game which the other companies did not consider, that was my only intention.
Quote from: Corolinth on January 16, 2025, 01:41:53 AMWe have reached the point in society where my instinctual response to "neo-nazi" or "nazi" is press x to doubt.
I know fuck-all about Varg and his game. I'm not arguing what he is or is not. Just that when I see that claim made about some guy I don't know and have never heard of, I immediately assume it's just so much noise. This seems relevant to anti-colonialist D&D being fake and dumb, but if it's off-topic, go ahead and ding me for it.
I mean, he was a famous neo-nazi and went to prison for murder related to his goal to have Scandinavian black metal fall under neo-nazi control instead of satanist control.
Quote from: RPGPundit on January 17, 2025, 03:53:31 AMQuote from: Corolinth on January 16, 2025, 01:41:53 AMWe have reached the point in society where my instinctual response to "neo-nazi" or "nazi" is press x to doubt.
I know fuck-all about Varg and his game. I'm not arguing what he is or is not. Just that when I see that claim made about some guy I don't know and have never heard of, I immediately assume it's just so much noise. This seems relevant to anti-colonialist D&D being fake and dumb, but if it's off-topic, go ahead and ding me for it.
I mean, he was a famous neo-nazi and went to prison for murder related to his goal to have Scandinavian black metal fall under neo-nazi control instead of satanist control.
I think you underestimate the ignorance of American audiences to all things non-American. This site is literally the only place I've ever seen Varg or his game mentioned.
Receipts have been brought in the form of quotes/scans of his books so Varg clearly is as claimed, but he's definitely someone a typical American consumer would have to already know exists to be able to find him or his products. Scandinavian metal and rpgs just aren't on a typical American's radar.
Conversely, if you're American and to the right of Mao you've been called a Nazi at least once. It's become a term devoid of meaning in America by its overuse.
Thus, the need to clarify that Varg isn't a 'nazi' (anyone the Left disagrees with), he's a genuine Nazi (flip his Master race hierarchy on its head and he'd fit right in with the modern Left).
I am old enough to remember the church burnings he did, was unaware of the murder, listen to all kinds of metal, saw the documentary, read up on him, heard he had mellowed (he has a wikipedia, I am not giving him traction by linking), bought the 1st Edition of MyFarog, saw what was posted above, destroyed my copy, heard he had mellowed even more, didn't buy it, ignored the 2e and heard about his new game on an Amazon suggestion. Having grown up two hours from a neo-nazi compound that has been thankfully burned to the ground in the late 90s, I am painfully aware of the difference as an American of non actual fascists and what the media tells us are. I had only bought his first edition because I had heard he mellowed out and at that time obviously had not. The world of game design is filled with people we admire and abhor. I do not care how good his game is, until he totally drops his hate I am not supporting him anymore, especially as I too am a heathen, yet I do not support his views and he makes the rest of us look like him, which is a bit of a battle sometimes. One oddity is that he claims that the Lord of the Rings is a big inspiration for him, yet he always thought orcs were the race he could identify with the most over the others and he even went by 'Count Grishnakh' (an orc from the Two Towers) for some time.
Quote from: Chris24601 on January 17, 2025, 05:12:34 AMI think you underestimate the ignorance of American audiences to all things non-American. This site is literally the only place I've ever seen Varg or his game mentioned.
You're fortunate. I came across him on Twitter/X (not following; not for any treasure in this world) when he was making his claims that Tolkien was "really pagan at heart" and just posed as Catholic out of social pressure. (The more you know about Tolkien, the more risible this claim becomes.)
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on January 17, 2025, 11:21:50 AMQuote from: Chris24601 on January 17, 2025, 05:12:34 AMI think you underestimate the ignorance of American audiences to all things non-American. This site is literally the only place I've ever seen Varg or his game mentioned.
You're fortunate. I came across him on Twitter/X (not following; not for any treasure in this world) when he was making his claims that Tolkien was "really pagan at heart" and just posed as Catholic out of social pressure. (The more you know about Tolkien, the more risible this claim becomes.)
Well, the Nazis were the original "We Wuz Kangs" after all, not surprising one would try to claim a Christian as one of them.
Quote from: RPGPundit on January 17, 2025, 03:53:31 AMQuote from: Corolinth on January 16, 2025, 01:41:53 AMWe have reached the point in society where my instinctual response to "neo-nazi" or "nazi" is press x to doubt.
I know fuck-all about Varg and his game. I'm not arguing what he is or is not. Just that when I see that claim made about some guy I don't know and have never heard of, I immediately assume it's just so much noise. This seems relevant to anti-colonialist D&D being fake and dumb, but if it's off-topic, go ahead and ding me for it.
I mean, he was a famous neo-nazi and went to prison for murder related to his goal to have Scandinavian black metal fall under neo-nazi control instead of satanist control.
I'm not disputing any of that. That isn't the point.
Not being a raging left-wing moron, you should have some credibility when you say something like, "This guy is a neo-nazi." I should be able to read your post saying, "This guy said x, y, and z," and take it at face value, but as I read your post, I realized I couldn't do that. Instead, my gut response was, "Neo-nazis are a far left conspiracy theory."
I believe you guys. I don't need you to sell me on it. And yet, despite the fact that I believe you, my initial reaction was still to doubt the claim. That's fucked up, which is what prompted me to mention it.
Quote from: Corolinth on January 17, 2025, 02:30:32 PMQuote from: RPGPundit on January 17, 2025, 03:53:31 AMQuote from: Corolinth on January 16, 2025, 01:41:53 AMWe have reached the point in society where my instinctual response to "neo-nazi" or "nazi" is press x to doubt.
I know fuck-all about Varg and his game. I'm not arguing what he is or is not. Just that when I see that claim made about some guy I don't know and have never heard of, I immediately assume it's just so much noise. This seems relevant to anti-colonialist D&D being fake and dumb, but if it's off-topic, go ahead and ding me for it.
I mean, he was a famous neo-nazi and went to prison for murder related to his goal to have Scandinavian black metal fall under neo-nazi control instead of satanist control.
I'm not disputing any of that. That isn't the point.
Not being a raging left-wing moron, you should have some credibility when you say something like, "This guy is a neo-nazi." I should be able to read your post saying, "This guy said x, y, and z," and take it at face value, but as I read your post, I realized I couldn't do that. Instead, my gut response was, "Neo-nazis are a far left conspiracy theory."
I believe you guys. I don't need you to sell me on it. And yet, despite the fact that I believe you, my initial reaction was still to doubt the claim. That's fucked up, which is what prompted me to mention it.
It's one of the worst things the Left ever did. They destroyed the credibility of the word "Nazi" in its original definition.
Quote from: RPGPundit on January 19, 2025, 06:14:40 AMIt's one of the worst things the Left ever did. They destroyed the credibility of the word "Nazi" in its original definition.
When I went to college in the 1980s, I saw people of all sorts of politics use "nazi" as a generic insult especially for authoritarian types of any stripe. The Right (like Rush Limbaugh) would use terms like "feminazi" for feminist authoritarians, and "grammar nazi" became a common insult. One of the earliest observations of the Internet was Godwin's Law coined in 1990, which showed the frequency of comparing people to Hitler.
So it was common among various politics to use "nazi" as an insult since at least the late 1980s.
The confusion came when actual neonazis became more visible. Neonazis had always been around since shortly after WWII, but I think with the rise of the Internet they gained more visibility. This lead to imprecision about whether one was using "nazi" in the original sense or the broader sense.
They needed the term both watered down and applied to opposing philosophies because National Socialism was just another branch of Marxist as Communism or their much beloved "Critical Theory" (ex. Critical Race Theory).
The core theme for them all, including in RPGs is to foster division. Instead of all the 'nerds' standing together to defend their hobby, they employ critical theory tactics to create divisions...
The boys won't let the girls play was probably one of the first; thus the game must be changed to make accommodations for this new division.
The whole Forge/GNS was another effort at division... they wanted sides picked and the community atomized so it would be easier to foist their ideas on the individual parts (Pundit's video on Euroboardgame design catalyzed that thought for me).
The recent pushes of Colonialism, Race, and Trans/Disabled inclusionism is just the latest wedge. Easier to force your ideas onto the smaller groups that are left.
I'm sure there's at least one Marxist-ideological OSR product out there trying to divide it further too.
Marxism; be it fascist, communist, socialist, or public-private partnership; really is a cancer... it breaks up healthy groups into smaller less healthy ones and keeps at it until everything is too atomized to survive on its own.
I think their whole trying to inject modern politics into an apolitical game like D&D is just plain stupid.
D&D was already one of the most inclusive games possible. The idea was that you could play practically any character you wanted that was there. Within the scope of whatever type of fantasy genre the DM chose to simulate.
Quote from: Darrin Kelley on January 20, 2025, 08:43:57 AMI think their whole trying to inject modern politics into an apolitical game like D&D is just plain stupid.
D&D was already one of the most inclusive games possible. The idea was that you could play practically any character you wanted that was there. Within the scope of whatever type of fantasy genre the DM chose to simulate.
This ideology seems to stem from the 'EVERYTHING must be political' crowd that, to be honest, sound like a bunch of killjoys that nobody would want to game with anyway and they certainly do not understand the concept of escapism. My group plays as escapism and to detach from the real world, not to simulate the current political climate.
Quote from: bat on January 20, 2025, 11:59:39 AMQuote from: Darrin Kelley on January 20, 2025, 08:43:57 AMI think their whole trying to inject modern politics into an apolitical game like D&D is just plain stupid.
D&D was already one of the most inclusive games possible. The idea was that you could play practically any character you wanted that was there. Within the scope of whatever type of fantasy genre the DM chose to simulate.
This ideology seems to stem from the 'EVERYTHING must be political' crowd that, to be honest, sound like a bunch of killjoys that nobody would want to game with anyway and they certainly do not understand the concept of escapism. My group plays as escapism and to detach from the real world, not to simulate the current political climate.
There's a reason they're basically the new age Puritans (per the old joke that Puritanism is the lingering fear that someone somewhere is having a good time). The modern RPG scolds are just the latest iteration of the Satanic Panic church lady mindset.
They're miserable. You're not. You're not allowed to be not miserable unless they can be too (which they can't).
Quote from: bat on January 20, 2025, 11:59:39 AMQuote from: Darrin Kelley on January 20, 2025, 08:43:57 AMI think their whole trying to inject modern politics into an apolitical game like D&D is just plain stupid.
D&D was already one of the most inclusive games possible. The idea was that you could play practically any character you wanted that was there. Within the scope of whatever type of fantasy genre the DM chose to simulate.
This ideology seems to stem from the 'EVERYTHING must be political' crowd that, to be honest, sound like a bunch of killjoys that nobody would want to game with anyway and they certainly do not understand the concept of escapism. My group plays as escapism and to detach from the real world, not to simulate the current political climate.
Fortunately, they are quickly falling out of fashion. Even WIZARDS just cancelled their DEI M:tG squad.
Quote from: RPGPundit on January 21, 2025, 04:23:54 PMFortunately, they are quickly falling out of fashion. Even WIZARDS just cancelled their DEI M:tG squad.
Hasbro is a company that likes money; anyone with a brain can see the writing on the wall. It's still gonna take years to get rid of all this crap, and the leftist morons will do everything they can to ensure games, media, education, etc. it doesn't happen. Thankfully, a lot of the people in the US have seen with their own eyes that the leftist ideology is really a small minority instead of the prevailing view.
However, want your take on this...do you think WotC is basically fucked? D&D has become much less attractive with the actual gamers, and the new blood they brought in aren't the types to stick with the hobby in the same way as the old timers. I have been waiting for a new top dog ever since I was a kid and it never materialized, even with 4th/Pathfinder. That was a serious New Coke moment. So, yeah, is D&D getting supplanted as #1 finally and WotC maybe sells the property and just cranks out Magic cards?
Quote from: RPGPundit on January 21, 2025, 04:23:54 PMFortunately, they are quickly falling out of fashion. Even WIZARDS just cancelled their DEI M:tG squad.
The spigots of DEI money that sheltered them from the consequences of their idiocy are getting shut off.
Hasbro (and other entertainment-based businesses) has to actually care about having people buy their products again so, though it will be through gritted teeth, the DEI garbage will be backburnered.
They'll still hate us, but now they need us again.
I expect a return to a lot more of their old passive-aggressive tactics (ex. dead Redgar scenes) from the early-to-mid 2000's.
Quote from: jhkim on January 20, 2025, 02:23:17 AMQuote from: RPGPundit on January 19, 2025, 06:14:40 AMIt's one of the worst things the Left ever did. They destroyed the credibility of the word "Nazi" in its original definition.
When I went to college in the 1980s, I saw people of all sorts of politics use "nazi" as a generic insult especially for authoritarian types of any stripe. The Right (like Rush Limbaugh) would use terms like "feminazi" for feminist authoritarians, and "grammar nazi" became a common insult. One of the earliest observations of the Internet was Godwin's Law coined in 1990, which showed the frequency of comparing people to Hitler.
So it was common among various politics to use "nazi" as an insult since at least the late 1980s.
The confusion came when actual neonazis became more visible. Neonazis had always been around since shortly after WWII, but I think with the rise of the Internet they gained more visibility. This lead to imprecision about whether one was using "nazi" in the original sense or the broader sense.
Talk about putting the cart before the horse. Nazi was a slur but it wasnt' as widespread until the Left started leaning heavily into calling their opponents Nazis. And then hey presto! there were "more" Nazis! *rolleyes*
Quote from: Brad on January 21, 2025, 05:34:18 PMQuote from: RPGPundit on January 21, 2025, 04:23:54 PMFortunately, they are quickly falling out of fashion. Even WIZARDS just cancelled their DEI M:tG squad.
Hasbro is a company that likes money; anyone with a brain can see the writing on the wall. It's still gonna take years to get rid of all this crap, and the leftist morons will do everything they can to ensure games, media, education, etc. it doesn't happen. Thankfully, a lot of the people in the US have seen with their own eyes that the leftist ideology is really a small minority instead of the prevailing view.
However, want your take on this...do you think WotC is basically fucked? D&D has become much less attractive with the actual gamers, and the new blood they brought in aren't the types to stick with the hobby in the same way as the old timers. I have been waiting for a new top dog ever since I was a kid and it never materialized, even with 4th/Pathfinder. That was a serious New Coke moment. So, yeah, is D&D getting supplanted as #1 finally and WotC maybe sells the property and just cranks out Magic cards?
I think they're fucked UNLESS they do a special massive overhaul. They need to basically fire everyone (at the very least everyone on the creative side) and get people with actual design skills and a love of regular D&D to work there.
WotC already had "classic coke is back" moments with the start of 3e and the start of 5e. No reason they can't do it again, except that the current employees despise D&D, are ideological fanatics, and would try to sabotage.
Quote from: Chris24601 on January 21, 2025, 05:42:49 PMQuote from: RPGPundit on January 21, 2025, 04:23:54 PMFortunately, they are quickly falling out of fashion. Even WIZARDS just cancelled their DEI M:tG squad.
The spigots of DEI money that sheltered them from the consequences of their idiocy are getting shut off.
Hasbro (and other entertainment-based businesses) has to actually care about having people buy their products again so, though it will be through gritted teeth, the DEI garbage will be backburnered.
They'll still hate us, but now they need us again.
I expect a return to a lot more of their old passive-aggressive tactics (ex. dead Redgar scenes) from the early-to-mid 2000's.
I believe they burned too many bridges to try and appeal to long time hobbyists again. They went full retard and flat out told many of us that we were no longer welcome in the hobby. They will now just have to choke down the shit sandwich that they have made.
Quote from: Exploderwizard on January 22, 2025, 02:32:09 PMQuote from: Chris24601 on January 21, 2025, 05:42:49 PMQuote from: RPGPundit on January 21, 2025, 04:23:54 PMFortunately, they are quickly falling out of fashion. Even WIZARDS just cancelled their DEI M:tG squad.
The spigots of DEI money that sheltered them from the consequences of their idiocy are getting shut off.
Hasbro (and other entertainment-based businesses) has to actually care about having people buy their products again so, though it will be through gritted teeth, the DEI garbage will be backburnered.
They'll still hate us, but now they need us again.
I expect a return to a lot more of their old passive-aggressive tactics (ex. dead Redgar scenes) from the early-to-mid 2000's.
I believe they burned too many bridges to try and appeal to long time hobbyists again. They went full retard and flat out told many of us that we were no longer welcome in the hobby. They will now just have to choke down the shit sandwich that they have made.
They may have, but it doesn't mean they won't TRY. Just like Disney will try to do something to salvage Marvel and/or Star Wars and the AAA game industry will try to woo back gamers by shoving the DEI into "optional" content (they'll still put the gay lover option into the game, they just won't make it the default).
Its classic abuser behavior, when it looks like the abused might actually leave for real they'll change behavior and start gaslighting just long enough to keep the abused from actually taking that last step.
That's Hasbro in a nutshell. They'll do something like "diversity always had to include straight white men (as long as they're leftists)" and then slap a couple on the cover of 1-2 books and maybe only mention the gay couple NPCs in the GM material rather than introductory box text in some of their adventures and hope that's enough to keep gamers from abandoning them.
Sad thing is it'll probably work for half the people ready to leave. It takes, on average, seven attempts for someone abused to finally leave their abuser precisely because of behavior like that ("oh, WotC DOES care. If I don't give them a second, third, fifth chance, that would make ME the bad guy").
Quote from: Chris24601 on January 22, 2025, 02:48:02 PMQuote from: Exploderwizard on January 22, 2025, 02:32:09 PMQuote from: Chris24601 on January 21, 2025, 05:42:49 PMQuote from: RPGPundit on January 21, 2025, 04:23:54 PMFortunately, they are quickly falling out of fashion. Even WIZARDS just cancelled their DEI M:tG squad.
The spigots of DEI money that sheltered them from the consequences of their idiocy are getting shut off.
Hasbro (and other entertainment-based businesses) has to actually care about having people buy their products again so, though it will be through gritted teeth, the DEI garbage will be backburnered.
They'll still hate us, but now they need us again.
I expect a return to a lot more of their old passive-aggressive tactics (ex. dead Redgar scenes) from the early-to-mid 2000's.
I believe they burned too many bridges to try and appeal to long time hobbyists again. They went full retard and flat out told many of us that we were no longer welcome in the hobby. They will now just have to choke down the shit sandwich that they have made.
They may have, but it doesn't mean they won't TRY. Just like Disney will try to do something to salvage Marvel and/or Star Wars and the AAA game industry will try to woo back gamers by shoving the DEI into "optional" content (they'll still put the gay lover option into the game, they just won't make it the default).
Its classic abuser behavior, when it looks like the abused might actually leave for real they'll change behavior and start gaslighting just long enough to keep the abused from actually taking that last step.
That's Hasbro in a nutshell. They'll do something like "diversity always had to include straight white men (as long as they're leftists)" and then slap a couple on the cover of 1-2 books and maybe only mention the gay couple NPCs in the GM material rather than introductory box text in some of their adventures and hope that's enough to keep gamers from abandoning them.
Sad thing is it'll probably work for half the people ready to leave. It takes, on average, seven attempts for someone abused to finally leave their abuser precisely because of behavior like that ("oh, WotC DOES care. If I don't give them a second, third, fifth chance, that would make ME the bad guy").
That will matter is authenticity. There's been lots of cases of woke companies trying to bring back the normies by bringing back classic characters or stories or stuff that attempts to look based, but if it is only superficial that becomes clear.
Often, they literally CAN'T give what the real fans want because the company no longer has ANYONE working for them who has the slightest idea what fans want. At best they create some horrible deformed imitation of what they imagine in their mind the fans want.
That's the problem for WotC. It can't come back now, unless it fires everyone in charge. None of the ones who are left have the slightest idea what they're doing, and so what they produce would inevitably only cause more damage.
Quote from: RPGPundit on January 25, 2025, 01:06:12 PMThat's the problem for WotC. It can't come back now, unless it fires everyone in charge. None of the ones who are left have the slightest idea what they're doing, and so what they produce would inevitably only cause more damage.
Further complicating the matter is the fact that I think they've spent a decade cultivating this new fanbase that actually does want what they're giving them. It's not all of the fans, but it's a sizable and vocal portion of them, and a change would produce the results of 'splitting the fanbase,' which is the Great Institutional Fear of WotC.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on January 25, 2025, 02:17:04 PMFurther complicating the matter is the fact that I think they've spent a decade cultivating this new fanbase that actually does want what they're giving them. It's not all of the fans, but it's a sizable and vocal portion of them...
I doubt it, unless by "sizable and vocal" you mean large numbers of bots on Twitter and Reddit...
The sales numbers are increasingly indicating that there really isn't a good audience for the type of game they want to push on people.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on January 25, 2025, 02:17:04 PMQuote from: RPGPundit on January 25, 2025, 01:06:12 PMThat's the problem for WotC. It can't come back now, unless it fires everyone in charge. None of the ones who are left have the slightest idea what they're doing, and so what they produce would inevitably only cause more damage.
Further complicating the matter is the fact that I think they've spent a decade cultivating this new fanbase that actually does want what they're giving them. It's not all of the fans, but it's a sizable and vocal portion of them, and a change would produce the results of 'splitting the fanbase,' which is the Great Institutional Fear of WotC.
I think long term sales figures will show otherwise.
Let them go bankrupt. We don't need D&D.
They'll probably just license it out. Though whether it will be to anyone good is a whole other matter.
I agree that this part of the audience is very vocal. I do not think that it is as sizable as WotC seems to think it is. Declining sales seem to show that it is not.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 26, 2025, 12:52:23 PMLet them go bankrupt. We don't need D&D.
D&D can keep chugging right along. With or without Hasbro/WOTC. AD&D and B/X are easily avialable these days and the OSR has produced plenty of new adventures for them.
Quote from: Exploderwizard on January 27, 2025, 07:32:53 AMQuote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 26, 2025, 12:52:23 PMLet them go bankrupt. We don't need D&D.
D&D can keep chugging right along. With or without Hasbro/WOTC. AD&D and B/X are easily avialable these days and the OSR has produced plenty of new adventures for them.
I mean the brand name
Many of us use the term D&D in the same way we call all tissues "Kleenex" or cola "Coke or Pepsi," it has become part of the lexicon, and WOTC is using it's name recognition and history to sell an inferior product. The most innovative and creative products these days are coming out of the indie and OSR scene. These games and supplements are typically made by passionate artists and visionaries without regard for shareholders and profit margins. Popularity has never been an effective indicator of quality in these types of endeavors, McDonalds is the most popular restaurant in town, obviously it has the best food, right?
Yes, the real D&D is the OSR these days.
Quote from: Acres Wild on January 28, 2025, 08:09:20 PMMany of us use the term D&D in the same way we call all tissues "Kleenex" or cola "Coke or Pepsi," it has become part of the lexicon, and WOTC is using it's name recognition and history to sell an inferior product. The most innovative and creative products these days are coming out of the indie and OSR scene. These games and supplements are typically made by passionate artists and visionaries without regard for shareholders and profit margins. Popularity has never been an effective indicator of quality in these types of endeavors, McDonalds is the most popular restaurant in town, obviously it has the best food, right?
Actually, their Egg McMuffin is really good and, for the price point, their burgers are good. Not great, but good enough for the price.
I bring this up because while a market leader like McDonalds will never hold its position if its awful, often times "good enough" is good enough with its ubiquity and consistency (a McDonalds McMuffin in Florida is exactly the same as the ones in Indiana or Montana) being real selling points.
The 5-star restaurant selling perfectly prepared Wagu beef, never frozen vegetables, with wine from a local vintner to five tables a night might be the most divine meal you've ever experienced, but that's not exactly something you can scale. The RPG equivalent is some master GM with a lovingly crafted original world and a system purpose built to both his style and the setting... but without that specific GM it falls apart into a pile of indecipherable notes because 80% of it was in the GM's head and never committed to paper.
That's modern D&D in a nutshell. It's product isn't great, but it's good enough for many casuals and you can find a table already running it just about anywhere you can find a local game store or hobby shop.
While their are tiny 5-star rpgs out there, they lack the reach and require a touch nearly identical to its creator's to run properly. 95% of WotC D&D's competitors are the RPG equivalents of Burger King, Arby's, Taco Bell, Chick-fil-a, and some local diners buying their food from the same suppliers as the chain restaurants.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 26, 2025, 12:52:23 PMLet them go bankrupt. We don't need D&D.
That's correct. *We* are "D&D".
Quote from: Chris24601 on January 29, 2025, 08:38:31 AMQuote from: Acres Wild on January 28, 2025, 08:09:20 PMMany of us use the term D&D in the same way we call all tissues "Kleenex" or cola "Coke or Pepsi," it has become part of the lexicon, and WOTC is using it's name recognition and history to sell an inferior product. The most innovative and creative products these days are coming out of the indie and OSR scene. These games and supplements are typically made by passionate artists and visionaries without regard for shareholders and profit margins. Popularity has never been an effective indicator of quality in these types of endeavors, McDonalds is the most popular restaurant in town, obviously it has the best food, right?
Actually, their Egg McMuffin is really good and, for the price point, their burgers are good. Not great, but good enough for the price.
I bring this up because while a market leader like McDonalds will never hold its position if its awful, often times "good enough" is good enough with its ubiquity and consistency (a McDonalds McMuffin in Florida is exactly the same as the ones in Indiana or Montana) being real selling points.
The 5-star restaurant selling perfectly prepared Wagu beef, never frozen vegetables, with wine from a local vintner to five tables a night might be the most divine meal you've ever experienced, but that's not exactly something you can scale. The RPG equivalent is some master GM with a lovingly crafted original world and a system purpose built to both his style and the setting... but without that specific GM it falls apart into a pile of indecipherable notes because 80% of it was in the GM's head and never committed to paper.
That's modern D&D in a nutshell. It's product isn't great, but it's good enough for many casuals and you can find a table already running it just about anywhere you can find a local game store or hobby shop.
While their are tiny 5-star rpgs out there, they lack the reach and require a touch nearly identical to its creator's to run properly. 95% of WotC D&D's competitors are the RPG equivalents of Burger King, Arby's, Taco Bell, Chick-fil-a, and some local diners buying their food from the same suppliers as the chain restaurants.
My feeling is that even the best GM will struggle with a system that has been burdened by incomprehensible rules and arbitrary moral relativism. I disagree about indie and OSR game designers being equivalent to Burger King. I don't eat at McDonald's, so I will take your word on the Egg McMuffin.
Quote from: Acres Wild on January 29, 2025, 12:10:03 PMI disagree about indie and OSR game designers being equivalent to Burger King.
Agreed. They're more like the local bar and grill with a good, fresh burger on the menu.
Quote from: tenbones on January 29, 2025, 10:37:19 AMQuote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 26, 2025, 12:52:23 PMLet them go bankrupt. We don't need D&D.
That's correct. *We* are "D&D".
Really? Because almost everywhere I go online, I hear people claiming that everyone else is doing D&D wrong. ;)
Quote from: Acres Wild on January 29, 2025, 12:10:03 PMQuote from: Chris24601 on January 29, 2025, 08:38:31 AMQuote from: Acres Wild on January 28, 2025, 08:09:20 PMMany of us use the term D&D in the same way we call all tissues "Kleenex" or cola "Coke or Pepsi," it has become part of the lexicon, and WOTC is using it's name recognition and history to sell an inferior product. The most innovative and creative products these days are coming out of the indie and OSR scene. These games and supplements are typically made by passionate artists and visionaries without regard for shareholders and profit margins. Popularity has never been an effective indicator of quality in these types of endeavors, McDonalds is the most popular restaurant in town, obviously it has the best food, right?
Actually, their Egg McMuffin is really good and, for the price point, their burgers are good. Not great, but good enough for the price.
I bring this up because while a market leader like McDonalds will never hold its position if its awful, often times "good enough" is good enough with its ubiquity and consistency (a McDonalds McMuffin in Florida is exactly the same as the ones in Indiana or Montana) being real selling points.
The 5-star restaurant selling perfectly prepared Wagu beef, never frozen vegetables, with wine from a local vintner to five tables a night might be the most divine meal you've ever experienced, but that's not exactly something you can scale. The RPG equivalent is some master GM with a lovingly crafted original world and a system purpose built to both his style and the setting... but without that specific GM it falls apart into a pile of indecipherable notes because 80% of it was in the GM's head and never committed to paper.
That's modern D&D in a nutshell. It's product isn't great, but it's good enough for many casuals and you can find a table already running it just about anywhere you can find a local game store or hobby shop.
While their are tiny 5-star rpgs out there, they lack the reach and require a touch nearly identical to its creator's to run properly. 95% of WotC D&D's competitors are the RPG equivalents of Burger King, Arby's, Taco Bell, Chick-fil-a, and some local diners buying their food from the same suppliers as the chain restaurants.
My feeling is that even the best GM will struggle with a system that has been burdened by incomprehensible rules and arbitrary moral relativism. I disagree about indie and OSR game designers being equivalent to Burger King. I don't eat at McDonald's, so I will take your word on the Egg McMuffin.
Honestly, the best GMs don't need a system because the players trust their rulings to fair. They can make even the worst system sing (case in point; Kevin Seimbedia. Arguably one of the worst game systems available in Palladium Books, but both personally and heard from others he might be one of the best GMs to have ever lived).
And as to OSR and Indies... what exactly do you think the OSR is selling? What is OSRIC but a repackaged AD&D? Basic Fantasy is repackaged B/X D&D. Pathfinder was a repackaged 3.5e. Mutants & Masterminds is still recognizable as derived from 3.5e.
They may be selling an older recipe (and marketing as such), but they're still selling a burger based on one that was available at McDonalds. One might change out the special sauce or grill instead of cook the burger on a hot plate, but it's still beef paddies, cheese, bun, and some condiments served with fries and a soft drink for a comparable price.
Other indies might sell roast beef or chicken or loose seasoned ground beef or a frank instead of a burger (any of the non-fantasy and/or d20-based systems out there), but it's still basically a sandwich, a side, and a drink. 90% aren't superior enough in quality to overcome the network effect and D&D/McDonalds being "good enough" for most people looking for a quick meal/something to do while hanging out with friends.
Basically, you're arguing that the 5-star restaurant is better. I don't disagree.
But, unless you're a foodie/RPG connoisseur, "better" isn't enough of an incentive to switch. A $6 value meal isn't fine dining, but it fills you up with $24 left over to do something else vs. the $30 you'd pay for even the mid-range steak and sides of a chain steakhouse.
You're never going to beat WotC by just being better unless their product becomes unpalatable to mass audiences. Even with all the crap, WotC D&D isn't there yet (heck, the majority at my FLGS think the 2024 edition is an improvement over 2014... just like McDonalds remains most popular).
That doesn't mean you can't choose to eat at better quality restaurants and invite others to join you. There's also a clear market for higher end non-chain restaurants/RPGs.
It just means expecting WotC D&D to crumble just because better quality products are available is a recipe for disappointment.
Quote from: Chris24601 on January 29, 2025, 12:57:32 PMBut, unless you're a foodie/RPG connoisseur, "better" isn't enough of an incentive to switch. A $6 value meal isn't fine dining, but it fills you up with $24 left over to do something else vs. the $30 you'd pay for even the mid-range steak and sides of a chain steakhouse.
What exactly are these $ signs in your analogy? It couldn't be actual money, because in this case the "fine dining" is a fraction of the price of the "fast food". So what are you actually saying is the "cost" of going OSR?
Quote from: Zalman on January 29, 2025, 01:18:20 PMQuote from: Chris24601 on January 29, 2025, 12:57:32 PMBut, unless you're a foodie/RPG connoisseur, "better" isn't enough of an incentive to switch. A $6 value meal isn't fine dining, but it fills you up with $24 left over to do something else vs. the $30 you'd pay for even the mid-range steak and sides of a chain steakhouse.
What exactly are these $ signs in your analogy? It couldn't be actual money, because in this case the "fine dining" is a fraction of the price of the "fast food". So what are you actually saying is the "cost" of going OSR?
If you believe "steakhouse chain" (i.e. Logan's or Texas Roadhouse) is "fine dining" you are woefully misinformed. The analogy has probably been tortured to death here so I'll drop it.
The point is that having a "better RPG" isn't enough to actually dethrone WotC. Quality is only one factor in the equation and, so long as WotC can hit "good enough" quality all of its other pros* will overwhelm the pros of being a better system.
How many years have people been saying "(WotC) D&D is dead this time for sure!"? How many people have visions of their superior mechanics being enough to dethrone it only to find out few care enough about the improvements to give up the mediocre but popular game?
You can say XYZ is the "real D&D" all you want, but only Paizo got close enough to make that claim credible and only until 5e came in and took it all back. The ONLY reason Paizo came close is that WotC changed its product to the point it was no longer "good enough"... to go back to the restaurant analogy one last time... McDonald's would lose its top spot too if it replaced all its burgers with tofu, but if they came back and said "we're sorry. We're bringing back the all-beef patties" they'd recover the top spot pretty quickly just like WotC did with 5e... because for most customers quality only matters in terms of a minimum threshold.
* ease of finding a game/players and uniformity of play no matter where you find yourself being primary ones... I can walk into just about any game store in the country and find a 5E table where they'd let me play a half-elf warlock.
Quote from: Chris24601 on January 29, 2025, 04:03:23 PMIf you believe "steakhouse chain" (i.e. Logan's or Texas Roadhouse) is "fine dining" you are woefully misinformed.
I've never heard of either. Are you claiming that masses of people wouldn't switch to these restaurants if they cost 1/5th the price of McDonald's?
OSR games are more fun to play
and cheaper to buy
and come with a cooler crowd. They're already doing multiple things better.
Quote from: Zalman on January 29, 2025, 07:34:45 PMOSR games are more fun to play and cheaper to buy and come with a cooler crowd. They're already doing multiple things better.
They're also harder to find, less pretty, less well supported in the ways much of the 5E audience expects, harder to find players for, and lack the Brand Name that 50+ years of consumer culture has made all-important. They definitely have handicaps from a marketing perspective.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on January 29, 2025, 07:59:14 PMQuote from: Zalman on January 29, 2025, 07:34:45 PMOSR games are more fun to play and cheaper to buy and come with a cooler crowd. They're already doing multiple things better.
They're also harder to find, less pretty, less well supported in the ways much of the 5E audience expects, harder to find players for, and lack the Brand Name that 50+ years of consumer culture has made all-important. They definitely have handicaps from a marketing perspective.
"More fun" and "come with a cooler crowd" are also entirely personal preference calls.
Similarly, cheaper depends on if you're settling for a PDF or want a full color hardcover like D&D has then the prices are compared (ex. a hardcover in premium color for ACKS is $55 on DriveThruRPG... comparable to a PHB which is all most players need... if you're still playing the 2014 edition then the SRD is free too).
If you only want the PDF it's definitely cheaper, but we've also already established price is far from the only factor in choosing a system.
Indeed, backing up your point, a lot people I know much prefer physical books and the fact that the D&D books are right there on the shelf to buy now from the FLGS is a powerful incentive over ordering a POD online that won't arrive for at least several days.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on January 29, 2025, 07:59:14 PMThey're also harder to find, less pretty, less well supported in the ways much of the 5E audience expects, harder to find players for, and lack the Brand Name that 50+ years of consumer culture has made all-important. They definitely have handicaps from a marketing perspective.
I agree with all of that except "pretty".
But then there's the that folks get upset when someone like Kelsey Dionne has good marketing. Makes me wonder how much the OSR just likes shooting itself in the foot because "mass marketing isn't cool" or something.
Quote from: Chris24601 on January 29, 2025, 12:57:32 PMHonestly, the best GMs don't need a system because the players trust their rulings to fair. They can make even the worst system sing (case in point; Kevin Seimbedia. Arguably one of the worst game systems available in Palladium Books, but both personally and heard from others he might be one of the best GMs to have ever lived).
This right here. This is PRECISELY what is not being advocated for enough: we need more and better GM's. This is what makes everything else you say in your post even more important... see below.
Quote from: Chris24601 on January 29, 2025, 12:57:32 PMAnd as to OSR and Indies... what exactly do you think the OSR is selling? What is OSRIC but a repackaged AD&D? Basic Fantasy is repackaged B/X D&D. Pathfinder was a repackaged 3.5e. Mutants & Masterminds is still recognizable as derived from 3.5e.
They may be selling an older recipe (and marketing as such), but they're still selling a burger based on one that was available at McDonalds. One might change out the special sauce or grill instead of cook the burger on a hot plate, but it's still beef paddies, cheese, bun, and some condiments served with fries and a soft drink for a comparable price.
Other indies might sell roast beef or chicken or loose seasoned ground beef or a frank instead of a burger (any of the non-fantasy and/or d20-based systems out there), but it's still basically a sandwich, a side, and a drink. 90% aren't superior enough in quality to overcome the network effect and D&D/McDonalds being "good enough" for most people looking for a quick meal/something to do while hanging out with friends.
Basically, you're arguing that the 5-star restaurant is better. I don't disagree.
But, unless you're a foodie/RPG connoisseur, "better" isn't enough of an incentive to switch. A $6 value meal isn't fine dining, but it fills you up with $24 left over to do something else vs. the $30 you'd pay for even the mid-range steak and sides of a chain steakhouse.
You're never going to beat WotC by just being better unless their product becomes unpalatable to mass audiences. Even with all the crap, WotC D&D isn't there yet (heck, the majority at my FLGS think the 2024 edition is an improvement over 2014... just like McDonalds remains most popular).
That doesn't mean you can't choose to eat at better quality restaurants and invite others to join you. There's also a clear market for higher end non-chain restaurants/RPGs.
It just means expecting WotC D&D to crumble just because better quality products are available is a recipe for disappointment.
... I 100% agree. But that's why this moment in our hobby is so special and important. Using your analogy - WotC is doing to D&D what I believe is the equivalent to McDonalds being discovered to having used exhumed bodies to make Soylent Green and now it's public.
The D&D brand has a stink about it now. People are eating it, but many are falling away from it. This is that chance for the OSR and all the other indy-companies to start scooping them up. But to do it, we need more competent GM's out there to run these games and settings. When D&D goes digital, what ever is up and running will be what is left of what our hobby IS: people that play RPG's. Not CRPG's.
McDonalds will be serving Soylent McMuffins openly. The people that want to eat it, will head down into that mausoleum and eat it. But they're not playing the game(s) WE are playing anymore than anyone reading this post believes that playing Baldurs Gate 3 on their PC means they're a roleplaying.
This is why it's US that matters. We'll be doing this long after the brand is dead. And I'd argue for many of us - it has been for a long time. We're just staring up at the edifice of it and waiting for it to topple. In the meantime we need to be teaching people The Old Ways.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on January 29, 2025, 07:59:14 PMQuote from: Zalman on January 29, 2025, 07:34:45 PMOSR games are more fun to play and cheaper to buy and come with a cooler crowd. They're already doing multiple things better.
They're also harder to find, less pretty, less well supported in the ways much of the 5E audience expects, harder to find players for, and lack the Brand Name that 50+ years of consumer culture has made all-important. They definitely have handicaps from a marketing perspective.
-harder to find: I can find a bunch of OSR titles of drivethruRPG.net in a matter of seconds. They're not harder to find
-less pretty: that's a matter of personal taste. all art is subjective.
-less supported? Some are, some aren't. Depends if the creator is one person or a group and how much they want to devote to their game.
-harder to find players: it's much easier now to find players for any game than it was decades ago due to the internet. there are online groups in X, Reddit and Discord who are playing online or are searching for gamers locally.
-lack of brand name: all of the publishers in the OSR world are not looking to beat out D&D. They just want to provide an ALTERNATIVE to D&D today. They fact that these independent publishers are around with their games proves that there is a demand. Not huge, but a demand nonetheless.
Most players like just sticking with D&D 5e and that's fine, especially the ones who've been introduced to rpgs in the last few years. But there are some who are willing to get out of their comfort zone and want to try an alternative. I've read numerous times on Reddit and elsewhere of people who are looking for something else besides D&D. The OSR provides that alternative, and even though it's not that big of a market, it still there and that's important.
They only way any alternative to D&D can even match it would need the marketing power of a company like Hasbro. Unless somebody can get Musk's ear, I don't see that happening. But I don't care if what I play isn't "popular", which is ironic IMO.
I remember a time when D&D wasn't popular at all. It was considered "fringe". For me, that was cool. IT was edgy and out of bounds. It was a game that geeks and nerds of all types tended to gravitate to.
Today, D&D is pretty much mainstream. IMO, it has lost it's edge. But at the same time, they recently went all DEI and alienated a portion of their fanbase. It sounds like to me that the folks at WoTC and Hasbro didn't read the room too well.
Quote from: blackstone on January 30, 2025, 01:01:44 PMQuote from: Armchair Gamer on January 29, 2025, 07:59:14 PMQuote from: Zalman on January 29, 2025, 07:34:45 PMOSR games are more fun to play and cheaper to buy and come with a cooler crowd. They're already doing multiple things better.
They're also harder to find, less pretty, less well supported in the ways much of the 5E audience expects, harder to find players for, and lack the Brand Name that 50+ years of consumer culture has made all-important. They definitely have handicaps from a marketing perspective.
-harder to find: I can find a bunch of OSR titles of drivethruRPG.net in a matter of seconds. They're not harder to find
-less pretty: that's a matter of personal taste. all art is subjective.
-less supported? Some are, some aren't. Depends if the creator is one person or a group and how much they want to devote to their game.
-harder to find players: it's much easier now to find players for any game than it was decades ago due to the internet. there are online groups in X, Reddit and Discord who are playing online or are searching for gamers locally.
-lack of brand name: all of the publishers in the OSR world are not looking to beat out D&D. They just want to provide an ALTERNATIVE to D&D today. They fact that these independent publishers are around with their games proves that there is a demand. Not huge, but a demand nonetheless.
Most players like just sticking with D&D 5e and that's fine, especially the ones who've been introduced to rpgs in the last few years. But there are some who are willing to get out of their comfort zone and want to try an alternative. I've read numerous times on Reddit and elsewhere of people who are looking for something else besides D&D. The OSR provides that alternative, and even though it's not that big of a market, it still there and that's important.
They only way any alternative to D&D can even match it would need the marketing power of a company like Hasbro. Unless somebody can get Musk's ear, I don't see that happening. But I don't care if what I play isn't "popular", which is ironic IMO.
I remember a time when D&D wasn't popular at all. It was considered "fringe". For me, that was cool. IT was edgy and out of bounds. It was a game that geeks and nerds of all types tended to gravitate to.
Today, D&D is pretty much mainstream. IMO, it has lost it's edge. But at the same time, they recently went all DEI and alienated a portion of their fanbase. It sounds like to me that the folks at WoTC and Hasbro didn't read the room too well.
Congrats.
We all agree that the quality (so long as it falls above a 'not complete garbage' line for the majority) of WotC is irrelevant to its status as most popular RPG.
We also agree there are alternatives to WotC D&D available and that they don't need to be as popular to be successful.
Is there some point we disagree on?
ETA: I guess perhaps we disagree on whether being on DriveThru makes it less hard to find than D&D books.
You have to know DriveThru exists to go there. You have to know OSR is a category to search for it.
You can stumble across a D&D book just going to Walmart.
The reality is the people that stay in the hobby will find what we older folks have always known: it takes work to do it. It's not free.
We kept this hobby going *long* before the ease of the internet kicked open the gates to gaming. It's less a matter of finding gamers than it is to curate the gamers for the kind of gaming you want to do.
I do get not everyone lives in metropolitan areas where it's more probable to find more players in general. But I guarantee the following:
1) If you are a GM and you care about your gaming and you *want* to run it - there are players out there for it. Go find them by any means necessary.
2) If you can't find them, and you truly believe that you gave it an honest effort, then it is your responsibility to yourself to grow that gaming group yourself.
This has *always* been the law of RPG gaming. And yes, some people are not up to that challenge of overcoming those two barriers.
If you're only a player, then you have no real excuse other than you should start GMing and choose option #2.
Or you drop out of the hobby like many will. And guess, what? *WE* will still be here.
Quote from: Chris24601 on January 30, 2025, 01:59:20 PMETA: I guess perhaps we disagree on whether being on DriveThru makes it less hard to find than D&D books.
You have to know DriveThru exists to go there. You have to know OSR is a category to search for it.
A Google search for RPGs other than D&D got this:
https://www.thegamer.com/fantasy-tabletop-rpgs-different-dungeons-dragons/ (https://www.thegamer.com/fantasy-tabletop-rpgs-different-dungeons-dragons/)
https://screenrant.com/tabletop-rpgs-play-arent-dungeons-dragons/ (https://screenrant.com/tabletop-rpgs-play-arent-dungeons-dragons/)
https://www.cbr.com/dungeons-dragons-tabletop-rpg-alternatives-games/ (https://www.cbr.com/dungeons-dragons-tabletop-rpg-alternatives-games/)
https://gamerant.com/best-tabletop-rpgs-not-dungeons-dragons/ (https://gamerant.com/best-tabletop-rpgs-not-dungeons-dragons/)
https://www.howtogeek.com/70751/the-best-tabletop-rpgs-that-arent-dungeons-dragons/ (https://www.howtogeek.com/70751/the-best-tabletop-rpgs-that-arent-dungeons-dragons/)
https://www.dicebreaker.com/categories/roleplaying-game/best-games/best-tabletop-rpgs (https://www.dicebreaker.com/categories/roleplaying-game/best-games/best-tabletop-rpgs)
https://alittlebithuman.com/tabletop-rpgs-dungeons-and-dragons/ (https://alittlebithuman.com/tabletop-rpgs-dungeons-and-dragons/)
It took zero effort and that was just page 1.
Quote from: tenbones on January 30, 2025, 03:10:06 PM1) If you are a GM and you care about your gaming and you *want* to run it - there are players out there for it. Go find them by any means necessary.
2) If you can't find them, and you truly believe that you gave it an honest effort, then it is your responsibility to yourself to grow that gaming group yourself.
This has *always* been the law of RPG gaming. And yes, some people are not up to that challenge of overcoming those two barriers.
If you're only a player, then you have no real excuse other than you should start GMing and choose option #2.
Or you drop out of the hobby like many will. And guess, what? *WE* will still be here
I wish I could upvote this...so...^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Quote from: blackstone on January 30, 2025, 03:20:46 PMQuote from: Chris24601 on January 30, 2025, 01:59:20 PMETA: I guess perhaps we disagree on whether being on DriveThru makes it less hard to find than D&D books.
You have to know DriveThru exists to go there. You have to know OSR is a category to search for it.
A Google search for RPGs other than D&D got this:
https://www.thegamer.com/fantasy-tabletop-rpgs-different-dungeons-dragons/ (https://www.thegamer.com/fantasy-tabletop-rpgs-different-dungeons-dragons/)
https://screenrant.com/tabletop-rpgs-play-arent-dungeons-dragons/ (https://screenrant.com/tabletop-rpgs-play-arent-dungeons-dragons/)
https://www.cbr.com/dungeons-dragons-tabletop-rpg-alternatives-games/ (https://www.cbr.com/dungeons-dragons-tabletop-rpg-alternatives-games/)
https://gamerant.com/best-tabletop-rpgs-not-dungeons-dragons/ (https://gamerant.com/best-tabletop-rpgs-not-dungeons-dragons/)
https://www.howtogeek.com/70751/the-best-tabletop-rpgs-that-arent-dungeons-dragons/ (https://www.howtogeek.com/70751/the-best-tabletop-rpgs-that-arent-dungeons-dragons/)
https://www.dicebreaker.com/categories/roleplaying-game/best-games/best-tabletop-rpgs (https://www.dicebreaker.com/categories/roleplaying-game/best-games/best-tabletop-rpgs)
https://alittlebithuman.com/tabletop-rpgs-dungeons-and-dragons/ (https://alittlebithuman.com/tabletop-rpgs-dungeons-and-dragons/)
It took zero effort and that was just page 1.
I don't see how this in any way disproves my point. You're still actively looking for an RPG.
You can run across D&D purely passively because it's so ubiquitous. You can see it mentioned on television shows. Do you REALLY think someone who hears "Dungeons & Dragons" for the first time is going to do a Google search for "roleplaying games" (much less rpgs other than D&D) or that they'd put in "Dungeons & Dragons" as their search terms.
I don't (and have never) denied that you can find alternate RPGs if you go looking for them. But I'm not going to pretend that going looking for them is as easy to find as literally finding D&D when you weren't even looking for it; because that's just not true.
When I can literally see a D&D Essentials Kit on the shelf while going down the book aisle at Meijers or Walmart without even looking for it... it is inarguable that D&D is easier to find than any other tabletop RPG.
You don't have to like it, but it's the truth.
Quote from: Chris24601 on January 30, 2025, 04:26:51 PMQuote from: blackstone on January 30, 2025, 03:20:46 PMQuote from: Chris24601 on January 30, 2025, 01:59:20 PMETA: I guess perhaps we disagree on whether being on DriveThru makes it less hard to find than D&D books.
You have to know DriveThru exists to go there. You have to know OSR is a category to search for it.
A Google search for RPGs other than D&D got this:
https://www.thegamer.com/fantasy-tabletop-rpgs-different-dungeons-dragons/ (https://www.thegamer.com/fantasy-tabletop-rpgs-different-dungeons-dragons/)
https://screenrant.com/tabletop-rpgs-play-arent-dungeons-dragons/ (https://screenrant.com/tabletop-rpgs-play-arent-dungeons-dragons/)
https://www.cbr.com/dungeons-dragons-tabletop-rpg-alternatives-games/ (https://www.cbr.com/dungeons-dragons-tabletop-rpg-alternatives-games/)
https://gamerant.com/best-tabletop-rpgs-not-dungeons-dragons/ (https://gamerant.com/best-tabletop-rpgs-not-dungeons-dragons/)
https://www.howtogeek.com/70751/the-best-tabletop-rpgs-that-arent-dungeons-dragons/ (https://www.howtogeek.com/70751/the-best-tabletop-rpgs-that-arent-dungeons-dragons/)
https://www.dicebreaker.com/categories/roleplaying-game/best-games/best-tabletop-rpgs (https://www.dicebreaker.com/categories/roleplaying-game/best-games/best-tabletop-rpgs)
https://alittlebithuman.com/tabletop-rpgs-dungeons-and-dragons/ (https://alittlebithuman.com/tabletop-rpgs-dungeons-and-dragons/)
It took zero effort and that was just page 1.
I don't see how this in any way disproves my point. You're still actively looking for an RPG.
You can run across D&D purely passively because it's so ubiquitous. You can see it mentioned on television shows. Do you REALLY think someone who hears "Dungeons & Dragons" for the first time is going to do a Google search for "roleplaying games" (much less rpgs other than D&D) or that they'd put in "Dungeons & Dragons" as their search terms.
I don't (and have never) denied that you can find alternate RPGs if you go looking for them. But I'm not going to pretend that going looking for them is as easy to find as literally finding D&D when you weren't even looking for it; because that's just not true.
When I can literally see a D&D Essentials Kit on the shelf while going down the book aisle at Meijers or Walmart without even looking for it... it is inarguable that D&D is easier to find than any other tabletop RPG.
You don't have to like it, but it's the truth.
It does disprove your point. If we're going on the assumption that someone already played D&D and wanted to look for an alternative, ANYONE with enough smarts can go on the internet and do a Google search.
Plus, it's not a matter of me liking the prevalence of D&D or not. I don't care. There are alternatives, and some people will gravitate towards those alternatives. Again, the fact they're available is a good thing.
So I'm calling out your bullshit saying "it's not that easy". I proved that it is by a simple web search.
Good day, sir.
Quote from: blackstone on January 31, 2025, 07:49:40 AMIt does disprove your point. If we're going on the assumption that someone already played D&D and wanted to look for an alternative, ANYONE with enough smarts can go on the internet and do a Google search.
When was that an assumption of my position? You're arguing against points I never made.
To be clear, the original argument made was that because other systems have better quality than D&D, they should be more popular. My counterpoint is that, like McDonalds, quality is only a factor if the product is no longer "good enough" and before that ease of access and consistency of product (i.e. you can find it anywhere and it'll be basically the same experience wherever you do find it) are often more important than quality in making something popular.
Your assumptions already prove my case if "someone already played D&D" is exactly why D&D is more popular. You're starting from the position that everyone starts with D&D (not entirely true, but the vast majority do) which proves my point; D&D's quality is "good enough" so the ease of access to it and the general consistency of experience keep it popular enough that only a fraction of people even bother to look for anything else.
Quote from: blackstone on January 31, 2025, 07:49:40 AMPlus, it's not a matter of me liking the prevalence of D&D or not. I don't care. There are alternatives, and some people will gravitate towards those alternatives. Again, the fact they're available is a good thing.
And we have no disagreement here at all. Alternatives are good and, if you're actually looking for them, easy enough to find.
Apparently you're arguing against some imaginary troll version of me that was saying "Heh, Heh? Dee-un-Dee BESTEST EVAH!!! ALL OTHERS SUCK!!!"
Quote from: blackstone on January 31, 2025, 07:49:40 AMSo I'm calling out your bullshit saying "it's not that easy". I proved that it is by a simple web search.
Again with the voices in your head saying things I never said.
All I said was "D&D is easier to find than other systems."
That is objectively true. That doesn't mean the others are hard to find. Just that D&D is easier still.
Quote from: blackstone on January 31, 2025, 07:49:40 AMGood day, sir.
I can only presume this is directed at your imaginary troll of me, since virtually nothing you stated was actually directed at anything I said.
But, good day, all the same as well.
Fine. Whatever. You win. Let's move on...
(sigh)
I'm sorry I even got involved with this conversation. I'm much better at discussion with a real person in front of me than with a keyboard and screen.
Ultimately, it really doesn't matter what anyone says. We're all yelling into the void our opinions, hoping desperately someone will validate anything we say.