The sales numbers are increasingly indicating that there really isn't a good audience for the type of game they want to push on people.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on January 25, 2025, 02:17:04 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on January 25, 2025, 01:06:12 PMThat's the problem for WotC. It can't come back now, unless it fires everyone in charge. None of the ones who are left have the slightest idea what they're doing, and so what they produce would inevitably only cause more damage.

   Further complicating the matter is the fact that I think they've spent a decade cultivating this new fanbase that actually does want what they're giving them. It's not all of the fans, but it's a sizable and vocal portion of them, and a change would produce the results of 'splitting the fanbase,' which is the Great Institutional Fear of WotC.

I think long term sales figures will show otherwise.

Let them go bankrupt. We don't need D&D.

They'll probably just license it out. Though whether it will be to anyone good is a whole other matter.

I agree that this part of the audience is very vocal.  I do not think that it is as sizable as WotC seems to think it is.  Declining sales seem to show that it is not.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 26, 2025, 12:52:23 PMLet them go bankrupt. We don't need D&D.

D&D can keep chugging right along. With or without Hasbro/WOTC. AD&D and B/X are easily avialable these days and the OSR has produced plenty of new adventures for them.

Quote from: Exploderwizard on January 27, 2025, 07:32:53 AM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 26, 2025, 12:52:23 PMLet them go bankrupt. We don't need D&D.

D&D can keep chugging right along. With or without Hasbro/WOTC. AD&D and B/X are easily avialable these days and the OSR has produced plenty of new adventures for them.

I mean the brand name

Many of us use the term D&D in the same way we call all tissues "Kleenex" or cola "Coke or Pepsi," it has become part of the lexicon, and WOTC is using it's name recognition and history to sell an inferior product. The most innovative and creative products these days are coming out of the indie and OSR scene. These games and supplements are typically made by passionate artists and visionaries without regard for shareholders and profit margins. Popularity has never been an effective indicator of quality in these types of endeavors, McDonalds is the most popular restaurant in town, obviously it has the best food, right?

Yes, the real D&D is the OSR these days.

Quote from: Acres Wild on January 28, 2025, 08:09:20 PMMany of us use the term D&D in the same way we call all tissues "Kleenex" or cola "Coke or Pepsi," it has become part of the lexicon, and WOTC is using it's name recognition and history to sell an inferior product. The most innovative and creative products these days are coming out of the indie and OSR scene. These games and supplements are typically made by passionate artists and visionaries without regard for shareholders and profit margins. Popularity has never been an effective indicator of quality in these types of endeavors, McDonalds is the most popular restaurant in town, obviously it has the best food, right?

Actually, their Egg McMuffin is really good and, for the price point, their burgers are good. Not great, but good enough for the price.

I bring this up because while a market leader like McDonalds will never hold its position if its awful, often times "good enough" is good enough with its ubiquity and consistency (a McDonalds McMuffin in Florida is exactly the same as the ones in Indiana or Montana) being real selling points.

The 5-star restaurant selling perfectly prepared Wagu beef, never frozen vegetables, with wine from a local vintner to five tables a night might be the most divine meal you've ever experienced, but that's not exactly something you can scale. The RPG equivalent is some master GM with a lovingly crafted original world and a system purpose built to both his style and the setting... but without that specific GM it falls apart into a pile of indecipherable notes because 80% of it was in the GM's head and never committed to paper.

That's modern D&D in a nutshell. It's product isn't great, but it's good enough for many casuals and you can find a table already running it just about anywhere you can find a local game store or hobby shop.

While their are tiny 5-star rpgs out there, they lack the reach and require a touch nearly identical to its creator's to run properly. 95% of WotC D&D's competitors are the RPG equivalents of Burger King, Arby's, Taco Bell, Chick-fil-a, and some local diners buying their food from the same suppliers as the chain restaurants.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 26, 2025, 12:52:23 PMLet them go bankrupt. We don't need D&D.

That's correct. *We* are "D&D".

Quote from: Chris24601 on January 29, 2025, 08:38:31 AM

Quote from: Acres Wild on January 28, 2025, 08:09:20 PMMany of us use the term D&D in the same way we call all tissues "Kleenex" or cola "Coke or Pepsi," it has become part of the lexicon, and WOTC is using it's name recognition and history to sell an inferior product. The most innovative and creative products these days are coming out of the indie and OSR scene. These games and supplements are typically made by passionate artists and visionaries without regard for shareholders and profit margins. Popularity has never been an effective indicator of quality in these types of endeavors, McDonalds is the most popular restaurant in town, obviously it has the best food, right?

Actually, their Egg McMuffin is really good and, for the price point, their burgers are good. Not great, but good enough for the price.

I bring this up because while a market leader like McDonalds will never hold its position if its awful, often times "good enough" is good enough with its ubiquity and consistency (a McDonalds McMuffin in Florida is exactly the same as the ones in Indiana or Montana) being real selling points.

The 5-star restaurant selling perfectly prepared Wagu beef, never frozen vegetables, with wine from a local vintner to five tables a night might be the most divine meal you've ever experienced, but that's not exactly something you can scale. The RPG equivalent is some master GM with a lovingly crafted original world and a system purpose built to both his style and the setting... but without that specific GM it falls apart into a pile of indecipherable notes because 80% of it was in the GM's head and never committed to paper.

That's modern D&D in a nutshell. It's product isn't great, but it's good enough for many casuals and you can find a table already running it just about anywhere you can find a local game store or hobby shop.

While their are tiny 5-star rpgs out there, they lack the reach and require a touch nearly identical to its creator's to run properly. 95% of WotC D&D's competitors are the RPG equivalents of Burger King, Arby's, Taco Bell, Chick-fil-a, and some local diners buying their food from the same suppliers as the chain restaurants.

My feeling is that even the best GM will struggle with a system that has been burdened by incomprehensible rules and arbitrary moral relativism. I disagree about indie and OSR game designers being equivalent to Burger King. I don't eat at McDonald's, so I will take your word on the Egg McMuffin.

Quote from: RPGPundit on January 29, 2025, 08:21:58 AMYes, the real D&D is the OSR these days.

100% YES.

Quote from: Acres Wild on January 29, 2025, 12:10:03 PMI disagree about indie and OSR game designers being equivalent to Burger King.

Agreed. They're more like the local bar and grill with a good, fresh burger on the menu.

Quote from: tenbones on January 29, 2025, 10:37:19 AM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 26, 2025, 12:52:23 PMLet them go bankrupt. We don't need D&D.

That's correct. *We* are "D&D".

  Really? Because almost everywhere I go online, I hear people claiming that everyone else is doing D&D wrong.