Quote from: rawma;1040981Obliquely? Gronan's propaganda campaign has definitely persuaded you.

So "the way the game was actually played by its creators" is now "propaganda"?  Delicious.

Especially with fava beans and a nice Chianti.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1040983So "the way the game was actually played by its creators" is now "propaganda"?  Delicious.

Especially with fava beans and a nice Chianti.

not to imply I'm re-entering this argument (I only really entered it halfheartedly to begin with), but if you aren't going to provide a clear source for that kind of a statement, you may as well not have made it at all.

Was there.  Did that.  Or ask Kuntz, Kask, Meyer, Swenson, Hoyt, Megarry, Ward, et al, all of whom have online presences.

Or did you mean prove it goes well with fava beans and a nice Chianti?  That's just a matter of taste.

...And we're back to making arguments based on page count.

Oh well.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1040983So "the way the game was actually played by its creators" is now "propaganda"?

Odd that they didn't write the rules for the game they actually played, and instead wrote rules for a wargame with combat making up a significant fraction.

The available written sources are mostly the rules, now that you've apparently given up writing your book.

Quote from: Itachi;1040756Now we know why Vampire the Masquerade was played in Superheroes by Night mode.

"In this game you should be ready to face your inner fears, as if looking at the mirror, and come out changed from the experience".... but we don't clearly explain how you achieve that, ...

Heh, really? Interesting.

Quote from: Itachi;1040756... so instead take these extremely detailed rules for combat, including long lists of guns and powers, that makes combat take 1 hour minimum each time it comes up.

VtM has a detailed combat system?  I've always been too uninterested to look at VtM, but I did look at Mage: the Ascension hoping for an interesting magic system, only to find what I remember as "everyone who does magic has a magic rating or three at levels 1 to 5, which let you say different sorts of things happen, but you can be overpowered by someone with a higher rating. Be creative and enjoy your GM being creative as they make up the cool details that have pretty much zero game mechanics behind them except what you and the GM say happens." Which seems to me like sort of the opposite, so I'm surprised to hear VtM would have crunchy rules.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1040983So "the way the game was actually played by its creators" is now "propaganda"?  Delicious.

Especially with fava beans and a nice Chianti.

Appealing to authority is a poor way to argue.

Gronan managed to get to page 8 before namedropping. That must be some kind of record.

Quote from: Fiasco;1041006Gronan managed to get to page 8 before namedropping. That must be some kind of record.

You can change your settings to display more posts per page.

Quote from: rawma;1040981Obliquely? Gronan's propaganda campaign has definitely persuaded you.

Actually, I just read the books and came to that conclusion. The game, according to the three books, FROM WHAT I ACTUALLY READ, implies there's this game world that exists and adventurers will go out and try to gain fame and fortune. Sure, combat, could be part of that, but so could persuasion, bamboozling, outright theft, whatever. That's how I learned to play D&D, oddly enough.

Quote from: Brad;1041031Actually, I just read the books and came to that conclusion. The game, according to the three books, FROM WHAT I ACTUALLY READ, implies there's this game world that exists and adventurers will go out and try to gain fame and fortune. Sure, combat, could be part of that, but so could persuasion, bamboozling, outright theft, whatever. That's how I learned to play D&D, oddly enough.

No, no, no, NO!  You're DOING IT WRONG!  Anything I say must be taken as the exact opposite of truth, and if I say "if you don't believe me ask any of these other guys" must be taken as name dropping, instead of, you know, suggesting asking somebody who was actually there at the time.

The Only True Truth must NOT resort to eyewitness accounts, whatever you do!

"There is nothing outside the text".:rolleyes:

Quote from: Brad;1041031Actually, I just read the books and came to that conclusion. The game, according to the three books, FROM WHAT I ACTUALLY READ, implies there's this game world that exists and adventurers will go out and try to gain fame and fortune. Sure, combat, could be part of that, but so could persuasion, bamboozling, outright theft, whatever. That's how I learned to play D&D, oddly enough.

Sweet, where was the mechanical support for all those?

Quote from: Ras Algethi;1041081Sweet, where was the mechanical support for all those?

Men & Magic pg. 11 - Charisma explanation
Men & Magic pgs. 12,13 - reaction table
Men & Magic pgs. 21,22 - Spell lists. 96 spells listed, only six or seven seem to have any sort of direct "combat" effectiveness, the rest are utility spells or spells used to creatively end fights.

That's just from a cursory glance at the first book.

Quote from: Brad;1041083Men & Magic pg. 11 - Charisma explanation
Men & Magic pgs. 12,13 - reaction table
Men & Magic pgs. 21,22 - Spell lists. 96 spells listed, only six or seven seem to have any sort of direct "combat" effectiveness, the rest are utility spells or spells used to creatively end fights.

That's just from a cursory glance at the first book.

Page 11's Charisma explanation says:

Charisma "primary function is to determine how many hirelings" one can hire/retain and what their loyalty is. And as stated, "in all probability" would be hiring "Fighting-Men, Magic-Users and/or Clerics". Oh, there is an aside about how "charisma score is usable to decide things as whether or not a witch capturing a player" will kill them or fuck them and attracting various monsters to their service. All pretty much combat orientated.

Page 12's reaction table is pretty bland and doesn't seem to take into account different Charisma scores. It also covers some "morale dice" for surrendering men or intelligent monsters but it's rather incomplete.

In the end, they either join you army or they fight you.

As for magic, you'd have to ignore the combat support spells to come to the conclusion you have. From the Magic-Users table alone I see dozens of spells that are direct damage or supportive of combat.