There's lots to think about in Cloyer's post here. I'll just take a couple of things.

Quote from: Cloyer Bulse on March 07, 2021, 08:35:12 AM
The first movie or game in a "franchise" is usually the best, because it's a process of exploring unknown territory and it has unlimited potential.

This is a great insight. This also explains why there are fan films and retroclones which are better than the professionally-made sequels, for example Predator: Dark Ages is better than Predator 2. Not being beholden to a larger enterprise they can be creative and explore new ideas.

QuoteThe original Alien movie has many different interpretations [...] Aliens, while a good action movie, removes any alternate interpretation and tells us that it's just a big bug with a queen and hive, like a colony of ants. All very mundane and scientific, not at all mythological.

To a degree, this movie-to-movie arc is a continuation of the traditional gothic narrative. Gothic horror stories inevitably have a Man of Science who creates or encounters a monster and tries to understand or conquer it, and a Man of Myth who understands it almost instinctively, and which of them shall conquer it? Usually the Man of Science becomes a Man of Myth. And there's always a labyrinth.

For example, in Predator, the Man of Science is Dillon, who insists the monster is just guerillas, etc - and of course is killed. Billy is the Man of Myth, the Savage, the cliched Amerindian in touch with the Earth, and he understands it. "He's killing us one by one." "Like a hunter," Billy says. And of course, "There's something out there huntin' us... and it ain't no man... We're all gonna die." In the end Dutch destroys the monster not with modern weaponry, but by stripping off his military gear and painting himself and using a log trap - the Man of Science becomes a Man of Myth.

Alien presents the monster in a mythological form, but in the end its destruction is a science problem. The crew try many different solutions until Ripley blows it out of the airlock. Ripley is both a Woman of Science and a Woman of Myth. Aliens, on the other hand, comes firmly down on the side of Science as the solution. "Take off, nuke the site from orbit, it's the only way to be sure." 

Horror movies typically follow the gothic narrative, but they sometimes have the Man of Science defeat the monster. This is to reassure the audience, who after all live in a world of science - we want to believe that science will save us from our problems. "They'll think of something... human innovation... Progress!" In this respect we make science into a myth - not something to be analysed, but to be believed in.

Characteristic of the Woke is that they are white, mostly anglo-saxon, middle-classed and secular - and their parents were before them. Lacking religion or any other cultural continuity, they have no myths, only science. Science offers much to the body and mind, but little to the spirit. And so they create new myths. Thus identitarianism and the like.

I'd rather create the myths at the game table.

I'd go further and say they aren't even creating myths really. At best a simulation of myth. Rather like the alien in The Thing.

Which is why there is a terrible disquiet in their mind and soul. A lot of the identity politics is an attempt to understand and fill the void that used to be filled with culture: Tradition, stories, myths etc.  This also speaks to the preoccupation of seeing RPGs in real world political terms rather than mythical terms.

For example in mythical terms a completly evil race like orcs is perfectly acceptable because they are simply a stand in for evil and brutality however you define it. 

It's only when you reject the premise of myth as a core concept and give the fantastical a literal reality that you tie yourself up in knots trying to work out whether it is problamatic trying to rid the local area of goblins or whether destroying Sauron represents the colonialisation of another equally valid culture or whatever.

Ironically by giving everything a literal reality it eventually means a failure to differentiate the real world from the nonsense that happens at the gaming table. 10 years ago past Visitor Q would assume that present Visitor Q was being hyperbolic saying this but apparently this is what has happened.

What follows is the odd situation of ascribing real world consequences to the entirely fictional events depicted in a role play game (e.g killing orcs or saving a princess actually leading to the emotional abuse and oppression of real people etc)

Which is all quite odd to watch and read about because separating fact from fiction during play is a skill that a three year old can master.

Quote from: Visitor Q on March 07, 2021, 05:30:45 PM
I'd go further and say they aren't even creating myths really. At best a simulation of myth.

That's simply because their myths are new. What's the difference between a cult and a religion? The death of its founder and about a hundred years. Each religion in its early years had many different stories floating around, only a few survived to become the dominant myths of that culture.

And of course, there are countless religions which could have been, but failed to get enough interest, or were absorbed into other religions.

We've yet to see whether the Woke becomes its own religion, is absorbed by another, or perishes entirely. I think the perishing is most likely, since movements which rely on self-punishment, like the medieval flagellants or communism - well, they get quite a few adherents but they don't have legs, they don't last. In the end, most people don't want to inflict physical or emotional pain on themselves for the sake of it.

I think most likely aspects of the Woke will be absorbed into the rest of the culture. People do enjoy a bit of penitentialism, but only as a salt, not the main course. And of course everyone likes defining us and them, with us being superior beings. Like the Daleks. "We are superior beings!" Mate, you're a slug in an electronic box.

Who knows right? But my sense is there is a fundamental and in some cases potentially conscious rejection of myth as a concept rather than merely replacing it with for example some kind of left wing secular or woke identity myth.

Myth requires engaging with the metaphysical and sometimes spiritual on at least some level and certainly based on their engagement with rpgs this is completly absent. It is compeletly grounded in literal political concerns.

In any case I suspect your prediction of its perishing and the reasons for it is correct. The analysis of whether woke culture had genuine myth or merely self congratulatory propaganda will no doubt preoccupy sociologists in a few generations time and be a footnote to everyone else. 

One reason why I think woke culture will perish with rpgs is simply that the soil is barren and the foundations sand (choose your metaphor) for the politics they are pushing.  The core concepts and sometimes even mechanics of probably 99% of rpgs that people are actually playing is just fundamentally anathema to woke culture. There's no sustainable throughline.

Well, the woke stuff tends to do well when people have secure jobs in which they are given some latitude to be unproductive, either because outcomes are hard to measure properly, or their bosses are too scared to sack them, like in this article about how one anonymous twitter account sent the woke part of the uni crazy,

QuoteBrock's strategic commitment to decolonization has created a sort of reverence around Indigeneity that offers me privileges and protections as an Indigenous scholar. All of the Indigenous-centered initiatives I've put forward have been well-supported, both in terms of funding and widespread institutional support. At the same time, as the only tenured female First Nations professor at Brock University, my departure could undermine the university's stated commitment to decolonization.

In other words: "my job is secure so long as they feel the need to virtue-signal." The positions of diversity managers in large banks and that sort of place are likewise secure whether they produce anything tangible or useful or not.

This situation does not obtain in the roleplaying game industry, which as a few people have noted here recently, should be called an "industry." An academic can put their own book on the student reading list, and imply to the university that if they're fired they'll sue, and even worse, make a fuss on social media. But an rpg writer can't make anyone buy their stuff, and if they make a fuss on social media nobody cares, not even The Guardian will write about it. So an rpg writer has to create content people are actually interested in.

Likewise, a gamemaster or player can indulge in all sorts of nonsense in the game, but they can't make anyone else show up to the session.

Just as people polled claimed they weren't voting for Trump but once they got into the secrecy of the voting booth they did, so too when surveyed, or during DIE meetings in the workplace, people may nod along with things. But when it comes time to spending their money on or showing up to hobby sessions their true views will be expressed.

And people just do not give a shit. Gamers by and large will accept any friendly person at their game table, and are indifferent to their ethnic background, gender or whatever. Most game groups reflect the demographics of the GM's social circle, and if it's an open game table, the demographics of the local area. As for your character, a hobby where someone or other will let you play a gnome-drow paladin is certainly not going to blink an eye if you decide your character is transgendered.

Quote from: BronzeDragon on March 06, 2021, 10:23:52 PM
...
In all honesty these people (oh god, did I do a racism?), or rather (and) their equivalents, were the ones RPGers in general were always trying to avoid. My experience is certainly different from the American one, but weirdos exist everywhere.

This. 1000 times this.

In the early days RPG's were a niche thing, that got made fun of in popular culture.

But we were all just basically normal kids looking for a bit of escapist fun.

Some fearmongers worried that kids who played the game might have trouble distinguishing between fantasy and reality.

Never in a million years would it have occurred to them that some people would self-identify as a pink horse before they even sat down to play!

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on March 07, 2021, 10:09:32 PM


[But an rpg writer can't make anyone buy their stuff, and if they make a fuss on social media nobody cares, not even The Guardian will write about it. So an rpg writer has to create content people are actually interested in.

Likewise, a gamemaster or player can indulge in all sorts of nonsense in the game, but they can't make anyone else show up to the session.

Just as people polled claimed they weren't voting for Trump but once they got into the secrecy of the voting booth they did, so too when surveyed, or during DIE meetings in the workplace, people may nod along with things. But when it comes time to spending their money on or showing up to hobby sessions their true views will be expressed.

It goes even further because even if you write gaming adventure content people want GMs can and do discard all the woke stuff (or any other ideology) they don't like in actual sessions. 

This is combined with with the fact that maybe a year after an rpg is produced (or less) someone is going to put a bootlegged pdf of it online. Therefore it is trivially easy for a consumer to get the benefit of 100% of content they like for free whilst only paying for content they agree with.

(Interesting article btw)