Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;799742I'm not saying you can't wing D&D with Theater of the Mind.

It just seems like you can't do it if you're playing RAW.

As said, there has been no edition of D&D (and, in fact, most RPGs) that don't use measurement and distance, yet are easily playable without a grid.

90% of things that effect measurement and distance are generally not that important, at least to the extent that they need to be precise and recorded. When playing TotM it helps if you can identify that 90%, as winging them has no appreciable impact on the gameplay.

For example, pushing someone back 5' generally only has the effect of allowing characters adjacent to them to move without provoking an Opportunity Attack. So, when that happens, you just need to apply that effect. A 5' push may have additional effects if the PCs are on the edge of a cliff or if there are reach weapons involved. If those are involved, then apply those additional effects.

Eh, I push someone 5ft, the list of friends and enemies that are now within 5' distance changes, effecting special abilities of both PCs and monsters.  With visual representation, deciding this list takes a fraction of a second, a glance basically.  With ToM representation, differences can occur.

WotC specifically designed the rules to not absolutely require a grid, but the exception-based powers being thrown out round by round by nearly everyone are much easier to handle with a grid or other spatial representation.

Did they assume you were using a grid or minis?  Who knows, but analysis of the powers means it's a pretty safe bet they thought the majority would be.  Do you have to?  No, of course not, people can play even Chess in their head.

Quote from: CRKrueger;799802Eh, I push someone 5ft, the list of friends and enemies that are now within 5' distance changes, effecting special abilities of both PCs and monsters.  With visual representation, deciding this list takes a fraction of a second, a glance basically.  With ToM representation, differences can occur.

I agree. The point I made was that a majority of those differences aren't really important and when using ToM these can either be ignored or agreed if they become important.

Which method works better for a group will depend on a lot of factors. As power level increases, I find ToM can become unwieldy. If the players are competitive or play tactically, then more time will be lost in agreeing differences when using ToM. However, IME ToM can be as quick if not quicker than grid use for many groups.

Quote from: Panjumanju;799784I was being facetious. My point is only that the economy of action favours moving great distances in a short period of time, making Theatre of the Mind harder to govern than it otherwise could be.

//Panjumanju

so you know, 30 feet in 10 seconds is really a slow walk.

I started writing an example of TotM combat and how all the distances can basically be estimated very easily base don good description from teh Dm but then I stumbled onto this
http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/38217/dd-5e-and-theatre-of-the-mind-in-combat

which has some great comments about to handle this stuff.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;799720Now, as I understand it, 5E is built to accomodate both TotM and gridbased play. But looking at some of the rules, things like people moving 5 feet or being so and so distance away, seems to suggest that using grids is still baked into the rules.

How exactly are you supposed to use Theater of the Mind to handle those cases? Let's say some Goblin archers are firing at the PCs, and the PCs need to move towards the Goblins to attack them, or be at a certain range to use an ability. The amount of turns it takes to cross that gap could make all the difference in an encounter.

Are you supposed to just wing it and say "sure whatever, you're close enough" or is there a way you're supposed to measure it? Or is this all really saying that you still need grids after all?

I never, ever play with grids or miniatures (or maps or the like, besides possibly the map of the dungeon in an adventure module).

And when I run combat, it's always measured out in feet.  Its not particularly difficult to do.

So you play it like Warhammer? You still quantify it but you use a tape measure or something instead of a grid?

Although you said you barely use maps, so that doesn't sound right...

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;800213So you play it like Warhammer? You still quantify it but you use a tape measure or something instead of a grid?

Although you said you barely use maps, so that doesn't sound right...

No, I just have people visualize it.  That's what I interpret "theater of the mind" to be.

Quote from: Panjumanju;799732Is it just me, or is 30 feet an astronomical distance to move in the same time allotment as swinging a sword once? I've always thought Theatre of the Mind D&D would work out better if each character wasn't the Flash.

//Panjumanju

Quote from: saskganesh;799857so you know, 30 feet in 10 seconds is really a slow walk.

A combat round is 6 seconds of time. 30 feet in 6 seconds is nowhere near a speedster. Also the abstract nature of combat isn't assuming a single swing. Characters would be in slow motion if that were the case. It would be like using the walk-through of a fight scene as the actual fight scene. (There are some terrible movies where it looks like this was actually done!

I played B/X for 3 years without ever using a miniature and AD&D for the next 5 years the same way.

We used graph paper to sketch out marching orders for various situations and for large battles, a drawing of the area and pencil marks to show where everything was.

I have used minis ever since I first aquired some, because I enjoy painting and playing with them. They are handy for easily moveable pieces to show relative positions with or without a grid.

I'm using minis with 5E but not paying too much attention to the grid except as a range reference. I don't care about who is in what square and sometimes a couple characters will share a square! (Gasps). I just thrown down the minis on the mat wherever. Some may be in a square, some might be on a line, etc. The grid is just there for distance reference.

If the area is very large sometimes the grid will be 10' per square, if smaller then 5' per square. The grid is a tool used for the benefit of the game, the game does not bend to serve the grid.

Example in play. We've always played like this, because the only miniatures we had back in the day were Battlemechs.

GM: Okay, Paulthus, you're in the lead. You're in the ruins, and there are broken and fallen columns half buried in the ground. There are six skeletons, and they're currently 100 or so feet from you, advancing slowly. Deleria, you're behind and to the right of Paulthus, and Triva is guarding you.
Paulthus: I move forwards, and judge how quick the skeletons are advancing.
Deleria: I begin preparing a Fireball spell, and yell to Paulthus to watch for my blast.
Triva: I'm going to try and flank them, running around them.

As the combat moves, we update were we are in relation. Most of the time we had a sketched map, to show us where people were. As to "within 5'" kind of abilities, it was kind of clear. Am I close to a Medium sized creature?

There are places were a lack of a coherent battle map might make play a little less clear in combat, but for many gamers, it's just not a real issue. I've been playing like that for over 20 years. Sometimes, where there is a really complex situation, we lay down some dice to represent relative positioning.

Quote from: Haffrung;799746The only editions you can't easily play theatre of the mind with RAW are 3E

Nothing in 3E core rulebooks requires miniatures: It rewarded precision, but didn't require it. If chose to use miniatures, the precision of measurement provided was rewarded by the system. (In fact, you could even play gridless -- so that there was a difference between 5' from someone and 6' from someone -- and the system would reward that extra level of precision.) But this precision was not required for the system to work.

3.5 kinda weakened this by measuring everything in squares, but it didn't fundamentally change the system. There was a facade emphasizing miniatures play, but the system still fundamentally responded to real world measurements and didn't require precision measurement (although it did reward precision measurement).

I haven't actually played 5E, but it looks pretty similar to 3E, 2E, 1E, etc. in this regard: Rewarding precise measurements, but not requiring them.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;800451Nothing in 3E core rulebooks requires miniatures: It rewarded precision, but didn't require it. If chose to use miniatures, the precision of measurement provided was rewarded by the system.

Sometimes rounding/estimating will be in a character's favor and sometimes not. Greater precision affects when things will be in a PC's favor and when they will not, but greater precision does not uniformly result in a more favorable result for a PC. Therefore I'm not sure what you mean by rewarding precision. Who do you see as being rewarded and what form does that reward take?

I think he means more of the rules are geared towards precision.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;800451Nothing in 3E core rulebooks requires miniatures: It rewarded precision, but didn't require it. If chose to use miniatures, the precision of measurement provided was rewarded by the system. (In fact, you could even play gridless -- so that there was a difference between 5' from someone and 6' from someone -- and the system would reward that extra level of precision.) But this precision was not required for the system to work.

3.5 kinda weakened this by measuring everything in squares, but it didn't fundamentally change the system. There was a facade emphasizing miniatures play, but the system still fundamentally responded to real world measurements and didn't require precision measurement (although it did reward precision measurement).

I haven't actually played 5E, but it looks pretty similar to 3E, 2E, 1E, etc. in this regard: Rewarding precise measurements, but not requiring them.

A great many 3.x feats rely on knowing the precise disposition of combatants at a moment in time. Anything involving flanking, tumbling, five-foot steps, and attacks of opportunity presumes a grid. I don't know how someone could run a Rogue in 3.x without access to a tactical grid. I actually found 4E easier to run than 3.x because 4E dispensed with the pretense that it was even possible to run without minis/pogs and a grid.

5E doesn't have anything comparable to the tactical maneuver feats in 3.x.