WTF?
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drpr/20070831a
Second wind?
Like in SWSE?
I hate it.
Why?
Breaks my suspension of disbelief.
Second Wind is as movie-shitty as it can get.
They are making it harder and harder for me to like this game. It sounds totally wussified. Second wind. Lamers.
breaks your suspension of disbelief? In D&D?
Look, I appreciate the heads up, for all of us who arn't following the spoilers, but the endless fucking complaining about the wussification of D&D is getting old.
I don't know what you want out of it, and frankly, I don't really care. If you're so sure you're going to hate the new edition, why not just fuck off and play something else?
Well, I am on two minds with second-wind. Let me tell you I really love it in Star Wars Saga. Because that is exactly "movie-shitty" as Settembrini pointed out. I am not sure how it will work in new D&D though. But I am not sceptical either. I am just going to try and see... if it won't work, fine. My current edition is not running anywhere... :p
I want to like current D&D!
But it keeps incorportating shitty mechanics, what can I do?
It´s not my fault.
@In D&D: Yes, in D&D. All the fantasy superpowers make sense within the universe. second wind is comic book logic. It has absolutely no connection to the fantasy universe. It´s TV-junkie rubbish.
Well, in 1e days we played a house rule that was a lighter version of this. When we were under 1/4 of our hit points, we were granted a +1 to hit and saving throws to simulate 'desperation', i guess. Didn't make a huge difference, but it did make the difference once or twice between victory and defeat for one or two characters.
Quote from: Settembrini@In D&D: Yes, in D&D. All the fantasy superpowers make sense within the universe. second wind is comic book logic. It has absolutely no connection to the fantasy universe. It´s TV-junkie rubbish.
With how abstract hit points are - they incorporate fatigue, skill, luck, and physical damage - I can't for a second believe that a 'second wind' is in any way unrealistic.
Hit points are
not physical damage.
-O
Anyway, why should I get any of my power back, just because I look firmly into the camera?
No matter how you view it, it´s a major PITA for me.
Will the game be bad?
Most likely it will rather be totally thoroughly designed butt-kick-ology.
It just seems it will just not be a game I like anymore.
Quote from: SettembriniAnyway, why should I get any of my power back, just because I look firmly into the camera?
No matter how you view it, it´s a major PITA for me.
Will the game be bad?
Most likely it will rather be totally thoroughly designed butt-kick-ology.
It just seems it will just not be a game I like anymore.
OK, so is it the name of the ability that you're hung up on, then? There's nothing in the mechanic about looking into a camera.
I mean, is it simply the ability to recover hit points? Or are you hung up on the trappings.
-O
What is a second wind supposed to model?
I can only see one thing: dramatic moments in action tv-shows.
Suckage!
Huh. It looks just like a power up to me. And not even an infallible one.
"..On his first regular turn, Tian used his second wind, then pursued the goblin by leaving the front door and running to intercept at the tree. He missed the wily skirmisher with his attack."
What is the Second Wind like in Star Wars?
Quote from: SettembriniWhat is a second wind supposed to model?
I can only see one thing: dramatic moments in action tv-shows.
Suckage!
I guess, inner forces that one does not no he posess, until the desperate situations reveals them by itself. Like a mother lifting a car to save her baby and such "desperate-real-life" situations... :(
In Star Wars if you go below 1/2 of total HPs, you will get back 1/4 of total HP or HPs=Con with swift action called second-wind. It is useable once per day.
It sounds an awful lot like the "Rejuvenation" ability from Tri-Stat games, which allows characters to regenerate some of the lost Health and Energy Points during intense moments due to "adrenaline rush and internal reserves."
Quote from: SettembriniWhat is a second wind supposed to model?
I can only see one thing: dramatic moments in action tv-shows.
Suckage!
Well, mechanically and design wise it's a little bit cludgy, but i imagine it serves several purposes that aren't necessarily anything to do with feel or dramatic moments. 1) To enable more fight, fight, fight, fight, than fight, fight, rest, fight, rest. 2) With a stated aim of less reliance on magic items, to take up the slack left by less healing items. 3) To mean that the cleric or healer isn't just the party medic. As it has been mentioned that there are combat roles for everyone, i imagine this is a slight nod to clerics dropping that role to some degree.
Really, it's a half strength 'Reserve' that appears in Iron Heroes too.
So it fills several areas where the new vision of d&d would have had an effect in just the one mechanic. *guessing! but it seems to fit*
All of your arguments are only increasing the suckage.
Quote from: Settembrini@In D&D: Yes, in D&D. All the fantasy superpowers make sense within the universe. second wind is comic book logic. It has absolutely no connection to the fantasy universe.
Huh? D&D is a collage of mechanics and fantasy elements drawn absolutely randomly from a variety of sources, historical as well as fictional. It only "makes sense" for us if we like the end result and because we're used to it. One more tidbit (second wind) will do much the same: it will make sense or not, based on our tastes.
Monks never made sense to me and they're perfectly ok for others. It's really no big deal. It's no use pretending "second wind" is somehow violating your darling D&D. And just so you know, second wind isn't limited to TV shows. It's a dramatic device that goes way farther and can be seen in many of the influences of D&D such as Howard, Leiber, etc...
Get a grip. You're acting like they dropped laser guns and telepath Rottweilers in a carefully researched, historical dark age RPG.
I loathe all dramatic devices.
Hence they actually DID drop Mimes into my Call of Cthulhu.
Quote from: Consonant DudeHuh? D&D is a collage of mechanics and fantasy elements drawn absolutely randomly from a variety of sources, historical as well as fictional. It only "makes sense" for us if we like the end result and because we're used to it.
Some players find metagaming ruins their immersion. My group used to let the DM roll
all the dice and do
all look-ups for this reason; they didn't want to say or do anything other than what PC would know in-game.
Me, I think 4E is going to be so different from my D&D (I don't play 3.x) that it doesn't really matter - it's going to be a totally metagamed exercise in tactics and PC builds anyway. But maybe it will be a game I can play when I want to play something dramatically different from the type of D&D we normally play.
I suppose other people are finding some of the proposed changes from 3 to 4 cross their own thresholds of metagaming.
Quote from: Thanatos02Look, I appreciate the heads up, for all of us who arn't following the spoilers, but the endless fucking complaining about the wussification of D&D is getting old.
I don't know what you want out of it, and frankly, I don't really care. If you're so sure you're going to hate the new edition, why not just fuck off and play something else?
My thoughts exactly. Settembrini, you're sounding like the worst of the whiners and grogtards posting over at EN World. You don't want that on your soul, now, do you?
Regardless, second wind strikes me as something I've read in a lot of sword & sorcery books and stories, where the protagonist is getting his ass handed to him. He's backed into a corner, and things are looking grim. Blood and sweat are running into his eyes. He may even have slipped and gone to one knee. Suddenly something - a thought of a loved one, a primal urge to survive, whatever - crosses his mind and, digging down deep, he dredges up a reserve of energy he didn't know he had and surges up and forward to fight on. Seen it in everything from Conan to Elric. "Second wind" in the combat example seems like it could be usable after the character loses more than half his hit points, which Tian, who uses it, had lost in the previous round.
I'm also wondering if you're familiar with the term "second wind." It's a pretty common idiom, and the example seems to indicate it's based more on that concept than anything in a movie - here are some definitions of the term from //www.thefreedictionary.com that might be enlightening:
QuoteNoun 1. second wind - renewed energy or strength to continue an undertaking; "She had dinner and got a second wind to finish painting"; "the employers, initially taken by surprise at the pace of developments, regained their second wind"
get-up-and-go, push, energy - enterprising or ambitious drive; "Europeans often laugh at American energy"
2. second wind - the return of relatively easy breathing after initial exhaustion during continuous exertion
Why do people try to dicuss things with Sett anymore? All he wants to do is complain and ignore counterpoints. Thank him for the useless info he brings, and move on. It's a lot easier, and has the exact same effect at the end of the day.
Hey Sett! Thanks for pointing out the article! 'preciate 'cha! :)
QuoteMy thoughts exactly. Settembrini, you're sounding like the worst of the whiners and grogtards posting over at EN World. You don't want that on your soul, now, do you?
1) I´m not so sure anymore.
2) I´m not saying 4e is "teh EVIL"! and it´s players are all munchkins!
I´m saying the literary device you mentioned seems to be the last step in non-experiential game design that drives me away from current D&D.
They are changing stuff I think is not broken, and they are introducing stuff that I actually hate. Stuff like this:
QuoteHe's backed into a corner, and things are looking grim. Blood and sweat are running into his eyes. He may even have slipped and gone to one knee. Suddenly something - a thought of a loved one, a primal urge to survive, whatever - crosses his mind and, digging down deep, he dredges up a reserve of energy he didn't know he had and surges up and forward to fight on.
SuckSuckSuck!
This is so lame in books and movies, I hate it! I game to get away from this shit!
See, I´m a big proponent of 3.5, so I´m part of the audience for 4e. I´m not whining that I can burn my books now. No problem with buying again. But buying again to get "he tightened his grip, till the knuckles appeared white behind the skin"-move -> SUCK!
I tolerate a lot of stuff, but second wind is really borderline. I mean will every monster have it? Why not, if not?
See where this is going?
Did I mention that I hatehatehate 7th sea and all mook rules?
Ok, could you people PLEASE cut-and-paste the articles or relevant sections to the thread you're talking about?? Not everyone will be subscribed to the D&D online service!!
RPGPundit
Pundit,
Are you banned on WotC-boards?
Because it´s the same log-in. No need to sign up on DDI.
Here it is.
QuoteWe work hard at Wizards, but some of our work is all play. I recruited my gaming buddies to test the game further at home and to see what its like to DM with the new rules. The players got to test the character side of things, and I got to experience adventure building and monsters.
My players like a reason to adventure together beyond being mutually employed by the same bloke who relies on the local watering hole to hire mercenaries. So they created a mostly human party of 1st level PCs who are all affiliated with a local count. The warlord, Domna, is the baron's youngest daughter, and Tian, the rogue, is Domna's lifelong friend and also the son of the leader of baron's personal mercenary troop. Sasha, the wizard, is daughter to the baron's chancellor, and guarding her is Robozcniek, a warforged fighter. Rounding out the group is Heron, and eladrin ranger who was a childhood friend of Tian and Domna. Long story short, the political situation made the count's having a team of specialists with a little legal authority a good thing. My having a party under direct influence of a local ruler was even better.
(http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/4e/20070831a_play_1th.jpg) (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/4e/20070831a_play_1.jpg)I wanted to whip up something that showcased the new game's tech, but I wanted to do it quickly. Using Own K. C. Stevens's A Dark and Stormy Knight (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/oa/20050329a) as inspiration, I designed a haunted tomb under a tor. One of the count's barons had been rewarding retiring soldiers with frontier land near the tor, and these farmers recently spotted goblin scouts ranging toward a fallen tower built atop the tor by citizens of a long-gone hobgoblin kingdom. Then a little girl disappeared, along with some livestock. The count dispatched Domna and her friends to investigate the situation.
After traveling to the outlying farmsteads, which were fortified yards surrounded by fields, and speaking with one of the farmers, the PCs determined that one home might have come under attack the night before. They investigated, and they soon saw the farm's stockade gate was open and the inner yard, where livestock was usually kept at night, was empty but drenched in blood. Heron noticed some large wolf tracks leading into the yard, and the party cautiously entered, expecting goblins.
Right they were. To the east, Heron spotted saddled wolves in the barn and a goblin archer in the barn's loft. Tian spied another goblin peeking out of the modest farmhouse to the north. Neither chose to warn their oblivious comrades, so a surprise round was my players' first contact with 4th Edition combat.
Their second impression came squarely from the three arrows with which Heron skewered the hapless goblin sharpshooter in the loft. That poor goblin fired on Heron, missing but triggering an immediate counterattack from the ranger, who followed up with two more arrows on his turn. The sharpshooter was dead before the third arrow struck home.
Taking a cue from Heron's boldness, thinking the fight might be over quickly, Tian rushed to the house despite protests from Domna that he was overextending himself and thereby the party. Tian arrived at the closed front door and threw it open, but couldn't quite reach the javelin-wielding miscreant within.
Too far out in front, Tian and Heron soon learned their mistake. The wolves rushed Heron, easily flanking him and pulling him to the ground. The goblin skirmisher in the house hurled a black-shafted javelin at Tian and scored a critical hit! Tian lost more than half his hit points in one blow, and to add insult to injury, the goblin then scampered out of the house's open back door to a tree on its west side.
But then the first regular round started. Domna rushed a wolf and missed it, after shouting encouragement to her friends (providing a small bonus to them). The wolves continued to tear at Heron, almost sending the unfortunate ranger to death's door. Sasha used a wizard strike with her staff, not only injuring a wolf, but also pushing it away from the prone Heron. This gave Heron the room he needed to stand, move away from his assailants, and regain a few hit points with a second wind. On his first regular turn, Tian used his second wind, then pursued the goblin by leaving the front door and running to intercept at the tree. He missed the wily skirmisher with his attack. The goblin cackled and backed away, then hurled another javelin at Tian—for another natural 20! Down Tian went, dying. Moving closer to Tian, the skirmisher started to reach for the knife on his belt to finish the rogue off. Robozcniek cut that thought short, literally, running across the battlefield, then charging the skirmisher and finishing the little dastard with one swift longsword stroke.
On the second regular round, Domna struck the wounded wolf, trying to keep it off Heron. That wolf attacked Domna, but she fended it off with her shield. But the uninjured wolf smelled blood, and it took Heron down again, this time knocking the eladrin out. Sasha maneuvered to blast both wolves with another strike from her staff, pushing the one attacking Heron away again. Robozcniek rushed across the battlefield a second time, and he terribly wounded the wolf that had been attacking Heron.
As the initiative count came to the top again, Domna used her tactical acumen to attack in such a way that the wolf she hit opened itself up to Robozcniek. The warforged struck true, and the wolf collapsed in a heap. Badly wounded and alone against many enemies, the remaining wolf tucked tail and ran, but Sasha was having none of it. She pulled out all the stops and set off a fiery blast around the fleeing beast. It tumbled down, still smoldering.
Their first real battle over, the heroes still standing aided their fallen friends—who had learned a valuable lesson. Investigation of the farmstead and more adventure remained ahead of them.
I'm not banned, but I understand that EVENTUALLY all of those articles will be subscription-only content.
And in any case, not everyone IS signed up to WoTC, and it is my feeling that no one here should be FORCED to register on a different site just to have a fucking clue what you're talking about.
Its common posting courtesy.
So, everyone, please note the new Rule in the stickied thread above. And please comply with it.
RPGPundit
Quote from: SettembriniI loathe all dramatic devices.
Dramatic devices such as hit points?
Come on. You like dramatic devices
that you're familiar with. It's the new stuff scares you.
-O
Quote from: SettembriniSuckSuckSuck!
This is so lame in books and movies, I hate it! I game to get away from this shit!
See, I´m a big proponent of 3.5, so I´m part of the audience for 4e. I´m not whining that I can burn my books now. No problem with buying again. But buying again to get "he tightened his grip, till the knuckles appeared white behind the skin"-move -> SUCK!
Have you never caught a second wind in real life? I have, and I'm sure a lot of others here have. Or is your life so devoid of physical exertion that you've just never experienced it? It's not just a movie/TV thing.
Quote from: SettembriniI tolerate a lot of stuff, but second wind is really borderline. I mean will every monster have it? Why not, if not?
Who the fuck knows? You're getting into a tizzy over sneak previews of a product that won't be released for 8 months. I mean, goddamn, you're asking questions that simply can't be answered right now, making assumptions about the answers, and then making a knee-jerk reaction to the assumptions you've made. Don't you see how silly that is?
My assumption is that second wind may well be a feat or a class ability for a certain class or classes, or perhaps something that is triggered conditionally, like when a character suffers more than half damage in a single attack. But who really knows? I'm curious about it, but I can wait to find out before making a decision on it.
Quote from: SettembriniSee where this is going?
No.
Quote from: SettembriniDid I mention that I hatehatehate 7th sea and all mook rules?
No, and what does that have to do with anything?
Quote from: obrynDramatic devices such as hit points?
Or levels. Or classes.
QuoteOr is your life so devoid of physical exertion that you've just never experienced it?
Yeah, that must be it...:rolleyes:
So, I voiced my concern, all arguments to counter them reinforced my concerns, AGAIN.
Have nice thread.
EDIT: The Fuck? Hitpoints are dramatic devices? Which novel? Which movie? Your categories are all in shambles, your tastes are not convincing or inspiring.
It burns, it burns, we hates it!
Quote from: SettembriniYeah, that must be it...:rolleyes:
So, I voiced my concern, all arguments to counter them reinforced my concerns, AGAIN.
Have nice thread.
I believe your arguments are hypocritical, as obryn points out. I guess that means you have to take your ball and go home.
Fuck you colonel, what is INSERT:hypocritical about not liking the SWSE second wind rule?
Can you explain me the hypocriticalness of that?
That´s idiotic argumentation.
Alas succesful in keeping me posting.
Quote from: SettembriniEDIT: The Fuck? Hitpoints are dramatic devices? Which novel? Which movie? Your categories are all in shambles, your tastes are not convincing or inspiring.
Explain how they are any less dramatic devices than a mechanic that is triggered by certain conditions, such as "second wind" seems to be. WIth hit points, getting hit with a sword doesn't mean a big gaping wound and lots of blood; it just mean a reduction of, I don't know, coolness or something, until the PC drops dead in a pristine state, with all his equipment clean and intact. Hmm. Sounds like a comic book to me.
Quote from: SettembriniFuck you colonel, what is INSERT:hypocritical about not liking the SWSE second wind rule?
Can you explain me the hypocriticalness of that?
That´s idiotic argumentation.
Alas succesful in keeping me posting.
It's hypocritical because, as obryn points out, "second wind" - whatever it is - is just as much a "dramatic device" as stuff you claim to like, such as hit points. Your arguments are glaringly inconsistent.
Hitpoints are abstractions.
abstraction =! dramatic device.
Yeah, I too want something more realistic, like Cure Light Wounds or potions of healing. All this 'second wind' crap stinks of non-reliance on magic to me...
*Cough*
Actually I quite like the idea. It reminds me a little of Reserve Points in Iron Heroes. Anything that allows my character to grit his teeth and come back fighting after suffering a serious wound is good by me. Very flavourful. Very in-genre.
Quote from: SettembriniHitpoints are abstractions.
abstraction =! dramatic device.
Since everything in a game is an abstraction, that argument doesn't hold much water.
Quote from: DrewYeah, I too want something more realistic, like Cure Light Wounds or potions of healing. All this 'second wind' crap stinks of non-reliance on magic to me...
*Cough*
Actually I quite like the idea. It reminds me a little of Reserve Points in Iron Heroes. Anything that allows my character to grit his teeth and come back fighting after suffering a serious wound is good by me. Very flavourful. Very in-genre.
Yes, reserve points like in Iron Heroes or in Unearthed Arcana are very much akin in spirit to this "second wind," if not in the specific way they are handled. At least, they are according to what we can glean from the article about "second wind," which is, admittedly, not much at all.
I´m amazed you aren´t seeing this. And the difference.
Well, well, have fun with your game then.
I can´t if it has this moronic second wind in it, at least if it´s like it is in SWSE.
QuoteYeah, I too want something more realistic, like Cure Light Wounds or potions of healing. All this 'second wind' crap stinks of non-reliance on magic to me...
What has this to do with realism?
CLW is CLW.
And hurt people have been hurt people.
But now they are hurt until they "think about loved ones", and are better again. SUCKAGE ALERT!
Quote from: SettembriniI´m amazed you aren´t seeing this. And the difference.
Well, well, have fun with your game then.
I can´t if it has this moronic second wind in it, at least if it´s like it is in SWSE.
Y'know, to be serious just a moment, I'm amazed you don't see what I'm seeing. I mean, fine, you don't like it, but it certainly doesn't seem like any more of a dramatic device than any number of other tried-and-true RPG mechanics. What about the barbarian's "rage" ability? Isn't that a dramatic device?
No, he´s a Brabarian. Barbarians can do stuff. This is not a dramatic device.
It´s because he´s a barbarian.
A Barbarian is a Barbarian.
Man, I´m not raging against the rules balance-wise or gameplay wise (I don´t know them). It´s about the suspension of disbelief, and it´s about taste.
I mean, everbyody must have a point where it´s too much for them. This is mine. Which is yours?
Fly ability for all characters?
Would you defend that too?
Quote from: SettembriniWhat has this to do with realism?
CLW is CLW.
And hurt people have been hurt people.
But now they are hurt until they "think about loved ones", and are better again. SUCKAGE ALERT!
Where is this "second wind" triggered by "think about loved ones"? Cite the source, please. It seems it is either triggered by (or can be used after) the loss of more than half of one's hit points - an hit points are an abstraction, and as you said, abstractions=/=dramatic devices.
Quote from: SettembriniNo, he´s a Brabarian. Barbarians can do stuff. This is not a dramatic device.
It´s because he´s a barbarian.
A Barbarian is a Barbarian.
So he thinks about being a barbarian and rages? LAME.
How about Pokemounts?
Do you defend those?
It´s about taste, man, do you have any?
What is needed to spoil your D&D?
Two handed weapon fighting for free and everyone?
Spellcasting for everyone?
Which is your limit?
Name it!
Quote from: ColonelHardissonSo he thinks about being a barbarian and rages? LAME.
You don´t need to play one.
I think Warlocks are thematically lame, as well as mechanically boring. I don´t play those.
Second wind will be EVERYWHERE. Difference.
Cure Light Wounds is Cure Light Wounds.
A Barbarian is a Barbarian.
Second Wind is Second wind.
See how easy that was? Repetition masquerading as rhetoric has never been so much fun!
Edit: I'm a few posts too slow, I think I see where you're coming from now, Sett.
Sett, is it just the dramatic trappings or is it something more mechanical about the second wind that concerns you? If it were an at-will ability I think I'm on-board with you; but if second wind is limited, like another resource to manage such as Cleric spells, or number of Cure Light Wounds potions, or resource points as in Iron Heroes, would that be more to your liking?
If I read your past postings correctly, you're concerned with the loss of tactical gaming that resource-driven play provides. Something that 4e wants to modify at best. With that in mind, I'm surprised that something that potentially amounts to little more than relabeling "I take a 5-foot step, draw a potion of CLW and drink," to "I take a 5-foot step and catch my breath," so troublesome.
Quote from: SettembriniHow about Pokemounts?
Do you defend those?
The term "pokemount" says more about those who use it than about the actual game mechanic. I've read tons of stories about Arthurian knights, and the horses are almost always never mentioned until needed, and then they're right there. This is also something that we see in "The Adventures of Baron Munchausen," where the Baron calls for Bucephalus inside the belly of a whale and Bucephalus gallops up. Finally, it's something seen in countless Westerns, especially old movie serials - the Lone Ranger being the best example. All these examples predate Pokemon by half a century, at the least.
Quote from: SettembriniSecond wind will be EVERYWHERE. Difference.
Cite the source for this information. We don't know anything about it. If it's a feat or a class ability, it won't be "everywhere." Nothing has been said about it being universally available.
Quote from: Petebut if second wind is limited, like another resource to manage such as Cleric spells, or number of Cure Light Wounds potions, or resource points as in Iron Heroes
Which, given how the term is used in the article, seems to be the case. Even if it's a triggered event usable by anyone, the implication is that it's a limited resource to draw upon.
Colonel:
The worst thing you can do to support any rule, is bringing up (fantasy) novels. All those genre trappings and artificialities: I loathe them. I game to get away from them. If a horse is only there when it is convenient, and away when it´s not, this is an abomination not to be lauded but to be avoided.
Pete: From a tactical perspective it´s lame too. As you said, there´s already potions etc. No need to introduce something else. But what they are doing in fact, is you must spend a swift action to heal some more. This is not ressource management, this is just boosting the players, making them more powerful. It´s a no brainer to use, because it doesn´t cost money or anything else. It´s free HPs. You are dumb if you aren´t using it. Totally uninteresting, I´d say, at least if it´s like SWSE.
EDIT: once per day, IIRC
Quote from: SettembriniColonel:
The worst thing you can do to support any rule, is bringing up (fantasy) novels. All those genre trappings and artificialities: I loathe them. I game to get away from them. If a horse is only there when it is convenient, and away when it´s not, this is an abomination not to be lauded but to be avoided.
Sir Thomas Malory and Chretien deTroyes don't seem like run-of-the-mill fantasy authors to me. If you're going to dismiss stuff like that as "(fantasy) novels," then just about anything from the tales of Gilgamesh to the Greek gods and heroes to Ivanhoe to, hell, even Shakespeare in a few cases are right out. Arthurian tales and the legends of Charlemagne are the very source of a class like the paladin, and thus the sources for the paladin's abilities. Dismissing them dismisses the paladin as a class.
I don´t CARE if it´s high or low literature. I´m into GAMING, not READING, when I´m GAMING.
Fuck all your literary artificialities with a stick!
EDIT: Huh? Paladins are the huscarles of Charlemagne/ Karl der Große. The don´t go away when I´m not trying to imitate literary devices.
Quote from: SettembriniI don´t CARE if it´s high or low literature. I´m into GAMING, not READING, when I´m GAMING.
Fuck all your literary artificialities with a stick!
You are really on shaky ground with such a statement. The entirety of D&D is based on literature and movies, with a small dash of medieval history. Every class except for maybe the fighter - and that is arguable - and the NPC classes (except the adept) springs from "literary artificialities."
BUT NOT THE GAMEPLAY!
Quote from: SettembriniI don´t CARE if it´s high or low literature. I´m into GAMING, not READING, when I´m GAMING.
Fuck all your literary artificialities with a stick!
EDIT: Huh? Paladins are the huscarles of Charlemagne/ Karl der Große. The don´t go away when I´m not trying to imitate literary devices.
Really? Those huscarles could heal damage with a touch? They could cure diseases? They could pray for small miracles that manifested in the real world? I doubt it.
CH, he's not interested in being convinced, just finding things he can say "fuck that" about. Unless you dig arguing with walls, why continue?
Quote from: SettembriniBUT NOT THE GAMEPLAY!
What does that even mean?
Quote from: James McMurrayCH, he's not interested in being convinced, just finding things he can say "fuck that" about. Unless you dig arguing with walls, why continue?
Yeah, I see what you mean.
Given that you're using SWSE as an example (I have the book, I've yet to read it though), I'll counter-example with Iron Heroes -- pardon the "square one" explanation as I don't know if you're familiar with IH:
In addition to hit points you have a reserve points pool. When you're outside of combat you can transfer RPs to HPs up to your CON score per day. As there's no healing magic, its meant to supplant that limitation. Now there's a Trait, one that my IH character has, where you can make the transfer as a full-round action, making it much more useful in a combat situation.
Given that IH is a Mearls design, like much of 4e will be, I'm inclined to think second wind will go in IH's direction. The SWSE method of second wind might be more inclined to Star Wars styled gaming, but IH's method seems to me more D&D-like.
I give up. Your categories are all in shambles, your aesthetics twisted.
Again, ask yourself why not all characters should be flying from level one.
Or have machine guns. Surely machine guns are literary devices. Hah! double layered pun in there!
Quote from: SettembriniI give up. Your categories are all in shambles, your aesthetics twisted.
Again, ask yourself why not all characters should be flying from level one.
Or have machine guns. Surely machine guns are literary devices. Hah! double layered pun in there!
So you're saying that the real-world huscarles simply hadn't gotten to a high enough level to "lay on hands"? I thought "lay on hands" started at first level?
By the way, you might want to bold that pun, because I don't see it.
Sett, the point that *I* had tried and failed to make was that "second wind" as it is in SWSE fits in with the Star Wars milieu. But we don't know for sure what "second wind" means in a D&D milieu and gave an example of a Mearls-design that does something similar.
Obviously none of us have any answers at this point and, for another thread topic, this tidbits that the 4e designers throw at us seem to be doing as much harm as good in terms of formulating public opinion. But I've read enough of Mearls' thoughts and played enough of his matierial to give him the benefit of the doubt in this regard.
Now I look forward to next year to try out my new Mearls-version Rust Monster Paladin...
Quote from: ColonelHardissonYou are really on shaky ground with such a statement. The entirety of D&D is based on literature and movies, with a small dash of medieval history. Every class except for maybe the fighter - and that is arguable - and the NPC classes (except the adept) springs from "literary artificialities."
But the
mechanics weren't originally meant to simulate dramatic devices from novels and movies. That's where Sett is coming from - he doesn't like mixing the cheese from pop culture with the meat of gaming.
I pretty much agree with him. When I see people saying they want their gaming to be like wuxia or Buffy, it sounds to me like someone who wants their architecture to be like dance. Furthemore, since I have no interest whatsoever in 98 per cent of the geek pop culture out there, any moves to simulate their artifices with game mechanics for drama and stunts and so forth is only going to alienate me further. Give me mechanics that can be supportable without modeling dramatic devices and I'm happy.
Colonel, you really don't get what Settembrini's talking about. I'm stunned.
A major part of the awesomeness of D&D has always been that it's not a mere passive, unimaginative gameification of stuff drawn from other media such as novels or film--but that it's rather its own medium whose elements are chosen and related to one another according to its own rules.
7th Sea, which I happen to love, is a perfect example for what D&D is not, and to which it *may* be edging closer by way of this second wind thing (except that unlike Herr S. I refuse to be convinced that I know just how central iit's going to be, based on that sketchy play report).
Quote from: HaffrungBut the mechanics weren't originally meant to simulate dramatic devices from novels and movies. That's where Sett is coming from - he doesn't like mixing the cheese from pop culture with the meat of gaming.
I pretty much agree with him. When I see people saying they want their gaming to be like wuxia or Buffy, it sounds to me like someone who wants their architecture to be like dance. Furthemore, since I have no interest whatsoever in 98 per cent of the geek pop culture out there, any moves to simulate their artifices with game mechanics for drama and stunts and so forth is only going to alienate me further. Give me mechanics that can be supportable without modeling dramatic devices and I'm happy.
QFT.
Quote from: SettembriniWhat is a second wind supposed to model?
An adrenalin/endorphin rush? The fight-or-flight response? The well-known tendency for people with their backs against the wall to fight faster and harder than those who still have a way to go?
Quote from: WarthurAn adrenalin/endorphin rush? The fight-or-flight response? The well-known tendency for people with their backs against the wall to fight faster and harder than those who still have a way to go?
So, like, a second wind (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/second%20wind)? :)
If I could just interject for a moment--you guys are doing a decent job on selling me the new edition. I might even play it! And then I shall post a glowing AP and imagine Settembrini gnashing his teeth.
Quote from: SettembriniNo, he´s a Brabarian. Barbarians can do stuff. This is not a dramatic device.
It´s because he´s a barbarian.
A Barbarian is a Barbarian.
Why should an angry, shouting man who isn't giving two shits about his own safety from one culture be any more dangerous than an angry, shouting man who isn't giving two shits about his own safety from another culture? And why should being angry, shouting, and not giving two shits about your own safety make you a better combatant than someone who's actually in control of themselves, hm?
Quote from: SettembriniColonel:
The worst thing you can do to support any rule, is bringing up (fantasy) novels. All those genre trappings and artificialities: I loathe them. I game to get away from them. If a horse is only there when it is convenient, and away when it´s not, this is an abomination not to be lauded but to be avoided.
Sett, stepping away from RPGs for a moment: what fiction books do you particularly like? Or can you not stand fiction at all?
I ask because you seem to rage against genre trappings and artificialities as if a) they're inherent to all fiction and b) any argument based on fiction must be based on them.
Quote from: SettembriniFrom a tactical perspective it´s lame too. As you said, there´s already potions etc. No need to introduce something else. But what they are doing in fact, is you must spend a swift action to heal some more. This is not ressource management, this is just boosting the players, making them more powerful. It´s a no brainer to use, because it doesn´t cost money or anything else. It´s free HPs. You are dumb if you aren´t using it. Totally uninteresting, I´d say, at least if it´s like SWSE.
EDIT: once per day, IIRC
Don't know much about modern D&D, but (a) I get what you're saying, Sett, but (b) maybe this mechanic could be saved if it's structured in such a way that a person can be prevented from using it by an opponent who presses an advantage. E.g., if you use it in the middle of combat, you trigger an AoO, and if hit, you lose the "second wind".
Not sure how to save the "once/day" element, though.
My question would be, why once per day? It's so...Vancian... :D
Why not just add 20% to everyone's HP across the board? Big numbers are nice. Of course, you would have to add to the damage dealt by monsters to balance it out...heck, let's just have a game about flying giant bears who shoot lasers out of their eyes which do d10,000 damage...:D
Sounds cool, except for those (like me, and apparently Sett) who believe that simple inflation of power does not lead to more fun.
I could be wrong, but I think that a once per day ability that gets back a few hit points is a far cry from ursine eye lasers.
Quote from: WarthurSett, stepping away from RPGs for a moment: what fiction books do you particularly like? Or can you not stand fiction at all?
I ask because you seem to rage against genre trappings and artificialities as if a) they're inherent to all fiction and b) any argument based on fiction must be based on them.
I started writing a short list, but this was unbearable name dropping bordering the pretentious. Let´s just say I either read Sci-Fi which is not insulting to me, and if I read about the human condition, it must be in a language that remedies the artificialities, e.g. "classical" or "canonical" high literature.
When I was even younger, I gobbled up a lot of adventure novels, like the EU Star Wars stuff. They had a great escapist value to me, so the artificialities didn´t come up at the time. The moment they became obvious to me, I dropped reading stuff like that.
So, when I want an escapist fix nowadays, I´m only left with RPGs, because only they can be about geeky-nerdy fantasy worlds and treat them as if they were real, and not some lame simile for some lame beaten path in navel gazing and emo-tourism.
I see Second Wind (what little we know of it) as no more cinematic or literary than Great Cleave, ie. it's a method of gaining an in-game advantage or respite, the depiction of which is entirely dependent on the sensibilities of those at the table.
It's a boost. A buff. A means of gaining an extra shot at staying in the game. If people want to see that as the Great Betrayal of the D&D Paradigm then that's their look out, I suppose.
Quote from: The_ShadowWhy not just add 20% to everyone's HP across the board?
For the same reason that healing spells and potions don't activate automatically without an action of some sort. It's a game effect that requires the player to decide on it's use then announce it's deployment (or so it would appear). As such it has an additional tactical aspect that extra hp's simply don't. It's also therefore possible for a character to get killed in combat before it 's their turn if attcked by multiple opponents. Second Wind seems to require you actually survive a round of combat in order to use them.
Also, if anyone here has ever seen a boxer or martial artist come back and win a fight after losing a few rounds, or watched a runner on the edge of exhaustion push through "the wall" then you'll know
exactly what second wind is about. And I'm not talking Rocky Balboa but real, observable instances of this sort of thing happening.
Quote from: SettembriniSo, when I want an escapist fix nowadays, I´m only left with RPGs, because only they can be about geeky-nerdy fantasy worlds and treat them as if they were real, and not some lame simile for some lame beaten path in navel gazing and emo-tourism.
Quite simply - if you're playing D&D 3.x for the
realism I think we're in fundamentally different conceptual universes.
-O
This line of argumentation leads to ridicolousness.
Why not making a +5 STR a per day ability?
People get stronger when desperate, no?
Why not that?
Quote from: SettembriniThis line of argumentation leads to ridicolousness.
Why not making a +5 STR a per day ability?
People get stronger when desperate, no?
Why not that?
Because they've settled on hit points instead?
Quote from: SettembriniThis line of argumentation leads to ridicolousness.
Why not making a +5 STR a per day ability?
People get stronger when desperate, no?
Why not that?
...okay? You can go ahead and make that a rule in your game, too.
-O
:rolleyes:
This really is pointless.
Quote from: Settembrini:rolleyes:
This really is pointless.
It would certainly appear so.
To be honest, I just can't see the point of 'second wind'. I suppose it can add a bit of drama, but my immediate gut reaction is that its just a bit of munchkinism.
Maybe I skimmed the article too fast... Do bad guys all get second wind too?
Quote from: HaffrungWhen I see people saying they want their gaming to be like wuxia or Buffy, it sounds to me like someone who wants their architecture to be like dance.
Now that you mention it:
Dancing about architecture (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0145734/) - one of the most beautiful movies I ever watched.
(And it has Sean Connery, Gena Rowlands, Gillian Anderson, Jay Mohr, Dennis Quaid, Ellyn Burstyn, Madeleine Stowe, Ryan Phillipe, and Angelina Jolie in it.)
But it's no gaming material, I fear.
Quote from: SettembriniWhen I was even younger, I gobbled up a lot of adventure novels, like the EU Star Wars stuff. They had a great escapist value to me, so the artificialities didn´t come up at the time. The moment they became obvious to me, I dropped reading stuff like that.
So, when I want an escapist fix nowadays, I´m only left with RPGs, because only they can be about geeky-nerdy fantasy worlds and treat them as if they were real, and not some lame simile for some lame beaten path in navel gazing and emo-tourism.
OK, I think you might have to give me some names for books and authors you enjoy (perhaps in PM if you don't want to do it on the thread), because you've just confused me more. I find that a lot of the lamest elements in the EU Star Wars material crop up when people start taking that geeky-nerdy science fantasy setting and treat it as if it's real - like when Lucas came up with midichlorians as an explanation for the Force.
Quote from: DrewAlso, if anyone here has ever seen a boxer or martial artist come back and win a fight after losing a few rounds, or watched a runner on the edge of exhaustion push through "the wall" then you'll know exactly what second wind is about. And I'm not talking Rocky Balboa but real, observable instances of this sort of thing happening.
That's the thing which is really baffling about Sett's reaction, to me: it's not as if adrenaline rushes aren't a real, empirically observable phenomenon. And yet he treats it as if it's some horrible cliche of fiction which has absolutely no parallels in real life.
Sett, you might be the house Prussian, but to me you may as well come from the Moon. I really don't understand where you're coming from most of the time, and I'm pretty sure it's not just the language barrier.
Warthur,
your haphazard patchwork collection of contradictory lines of argumentation and interpretation make communication impossible.
I´ll try though: Since when did D&D model hormones? Why only adrenaline?
Why after being down to 1/2 HP? Why once per day?
Why do I heal damage instead of gaining a short term rage, like a Barbarian for example?
What has D&D got to do with reality?
Why is this part of "reality" suddenly important, but not for the last 30 years?
Why do you defend a concept that is "totally reasonable" but nobody thought of it before?
Will you introduce a secodn wind in all your RPGs?
It´s so totally based on reality after all.
I can again only shake my head.
QuoteWhat has D&D got to do with reality?
Why do you want games to treat geeky fantasy worlds as if they were real, but at the same time say that reality itself shouldn't have anything to do with it? Do you get something important about modelling a fantastic land where adrenaline doesn't exist?
Fuck, you really don´t get it.
I capitulate again!
Quote from: SettembriniWarthur,
your haphazard patchwork collection of contradictory lines of argumentation and interpretation make communication impossible.
I´ll try though: Since when did D&D model hormones? Why only adrenaline?
Why after being down to 1/2 HP? Why once per day?
Why do I heal damage instead of gaining a short term rage, like a Barbarian for example?
What has D&D got to do with reality?
Why is this part of "reality" suddenly important, but not for the last 30 years?
Why do you defend a concept that is "totally reasonable" but nobody thought of it before?
Will you introduce a secodn wind in all your RPGs?
It´s so totally based on reality after all.
I can again only shake my head.
I'll try one more time.
Replace every instance of 'Second Wind' in your arguments with 'Great Cleave.' Why not use it in every game you own? Why not give it to every monster you can think of? Can you
now see how silly your point seems?
Maybe you'll eventually get it. If you don't, then I'm no longer willing to even attempt to convince you otherwise. You've been given literary examples, cinematic examples and system-based examples, any or all of which can be used to rationalise the mechanic. Instead of listening you're trying to compare the examples against one another in a spurious attempt to deny the validity of the mechanic.
You don't like it. We get that. Just don't try to extend every possible interpretation of an as-yet hazily defined rule into ridiculous and irrelevant extremes. It does nothing but reflect poorly on you.
Oh, and if you keep insisting that this argument has nothing to do with reality then you shouldn't really have criticised it on the basis of it breaking your suspension of disbelief.
Froth and venom. That's all I'm seeing here.
Quote from: SettembriniFuck, you really don´t get it.
I guess not, SetteMoonman.
Settembrini, this has fuck all to do with Second Wind. You're pissed at someone and taking it out on us. Stop it. Sober up, grow up, and start acting like a human being. You're just being a brat.
Here's what you're going to do. You're going to start jogging. You're going to jog every day, jog until you're certain you can't go on. When it gets to that point, you're going to push it. You're going to push yourself. Every day you'll push yourself until the day comes when your joints ache, your muscles burn, and your heart labors like a donkey engine under an excessive load. And you will push on past that. That, boy, is what we mean by second wind.
Second wind is when you push on when you're about to drop. Second wind is when you hold up that wall for just a few minutes more. Second wind is when you walk under the blazing sun, knowing that to stop means you die. That is second wind.
I know second wind, I've had occasion to call upon my second wind, and I'm getting sick of your obstinancy and insults. Get a life.
:rolleyes:
@great cleaving drew:
Great cleave is a feat. If second wind was optional, only a class ability or a feat, I wouldn´t have any gripe with it.
Quote from: Thanatos02Look, I appreciate the heads up, for all of us who arn't following the spoilers, but the endless fucking complaining about the wussification of D&D is getting old.
I don't know what you want out of it, and frankly, I don't really care. If you're so sure you're going to hate the new edition, why not just fuck off and play something else?
You know what: fuck off yourself.
I had to put up with all this incessant whining over aspects of 3e that I felt worked just fine.
Now that the authors seem to be determined to shake things up more than just fix what's actually broke, I'm all for holding the designers' feet to the fire in the (probably vain) hopes something worthwhile comes out of it.
So you don't like these threads? Don't read 'em.
Quote from: Settembrini@great cleaving drew:
Great cleave is a feat. If second wind was optional, only a class ability or a feat, I wouldn´t have any gripe with it.
Maybe that's all "second wind" will be. If that's the case, that would be fine. If it was open to everyone, I don't think I'd like it. Not because it's "realistic" or "unrealistic", but because I just see it as a form of regeneration. I don't why that bugs me, but it does. We'll soon see how it goes. Only eight months to go! :haw:
Quote from: Settembrini:rolleyes:
Pundit, do you have contact information for his parents?
Quote from: Caesar SlaadYou know what: fuck off yourself.
I had to put up with all this incessant whining over aspects of 3e that I felt worked just fine.
Now that the authors seem to be determined to shake things up more than just fix what's actually broke, I'm all for holding the designers' feet to the fire in the (probably vain) hopes something worthwhile comes out of it.
So you don't like these threads? Don't read 'em.
He can pretty much skip any thread with more than one reply per day, then. And am I correct in understanding you support pre-emptive complaining about 4e out of spite?
I'm still unclear as to whether bad guys (NPCs and monsters the PCs will be fighting) will get 'second wind'. Apologies if this has been answered here, but I can't see it. Anyone know?
Quote from: BrantaiHe can pretty much skip any thread with more than one reply per day, then. And am I correct in understanding you support pre-emptive complaining about 4e out of spite?
Oooh... unflattering characterization, middle exclusion, and strawman beating. This looks like a fun game.
"I'm to understand you only want to see threads that fawn all over 4e and proclaim its greatness?"
:rolleyes:
Quote from: Caesar SlaadOooh... unflattering characterization, middle exclusion, and strawman beating. This looks like a fun game.
"I'm to understand you only want to see threads that fawn all over 4e and proclaim its greatness?"
:rolleyes:
Look, if "
I had to put up with it, so now
you have to put up with it" isn't spite, I'm not really sure what is.
Quote from: BrantaiLook, if "I had to put up with it, so now you have to put up with it" isn't spite, I'm not really sure what is.
So, did you bother reading more than one sentence of the post you quoted?
Yeah, I was flipping Thanatos off. Not off kilter with the tone of the post I was replying to, I think.
But in the third paragraph I drive home why I think it's important that we not just fawn over 4e: because some criticisms of 4e are valid. That's not "just spite".
Quote from: Caesar SlaadSo, did you bother reading more than one sentence of the post you quoted?
Yeah, I was flipping Thanatos off. Not off kilter with the tone of the post I was replying to, I think.
But in the third paragraph I drive home why I think it's important that we not just fawn over 4e: because some criticisms of 4e are valid. That's not "just spite".
Why bother including the sentence at all? It just makes your third paragraph sound disingenuous.
edit: And anyway, there's a difference between refraining from fawning over every 4e announcement and just shitting ourselves in righteous fury every time a change is announced. I'm aware I excluded a middle there, because (IMO, etc. etc.) Sett alone swings the discussion on therpgsite pretty far to one side.
Quote from: BrantaiI'm aware I excluded a middle there, because (IMO, etc. etc.) Sett alone swings the discussion on therpgsite pretty far to one side.
Oh, he certainly can and has. I've been known to throw out a "what the fuck ever, Sett" comment from time to time.
But at least, as extreme as his views may be, is
discussing the game, not just crapping in the thread because he doesn't want to talk about it. AFAIAC, if you disagree with Sett's take, there's still room left in the thread to refute and discuss or even (gasp) entertain his take.
See, I´m engaged in RPG discussion. The most classical one: pre-emptive edition considerations.
How inane are those who want to curtail the bread and butter of a, no, THE RPG Site.
I can only wonder. Maybe you want a place with a d20 ghetto? Or you might want a place to discuss nancy pelosis pubic hairdo?
This is THERPGSite!
For fucking fucks sake, what better thing to dicuss than 4e, and even more what better pastime than to moan and cassandra-ize about perceived shifts in playstyle?
WHAT ARE YOU GUYS WANTING ON THIS FUCKING
RPG-site?
Quote from: Caesar SlaadOh, he certainly can and has. I've been known to throw out a "what the fuck ever, Sett" comment from time to time.
But at least, as extreme as his views may be, is discussing the game, not just crapping in the thread because he doesn't want to talk about it. AFAIAC, if you disagree with Sett's take, there's still room left in the thread to refute and discuss or even (gasp) entertain his take.
He may be posting, but I disagree that he's actually discussing the game. He's whinging about the game, but I haven't often seen him contributing to actual discussion about the game.
What logic?!
It´s better to discuss ME than to discuss 4e?!
Brantai, GET YOURSELF AN INTERNET DRIVERS LICENSE!
Quote from: SettembriniWhat logic?!
It´s better to discuss ME than to discuss 4e?!
Brantai, GET YOURSELF AN INTERNET DRIVERS LICENSE!
no u
Please discuss 4e or leave the thread, man-without-a-life-so-he-must-discuss-the-pastime-of-others.
Quote from: SettembriniPlease discuss 4e or leave the thread, man-without-a-life-so-he-must-discuss-the-pastime-of-others.
OH LAWD IT'S DA THREAD POLICE
I don't mean to interrupt this deep conversation, but, really, it all depends on whether second wind is a feat (fine, whatevs) or some kind of brownie point (grrrr). And right now we don't really know which of the two it is, no?
Quote from: Pierce InverarityI don't mean to interrupt this deep conversation, but, really, it all depends on whether second wind is a feat (fine, whatevs) or some kind of brownie point (grrrr).
It's sounding like an action. Though if it's an action based on an expendable resource, it would be a bit akin to a brownie point.
Quote from: Caesar SlaadIt's sounding like an action. Though if it's an action based on an expendable resource, it would be a bit akin to a brownie point.
It could also be one of those "once per encounter/once per day" abilities we keep hearing about. Fighters may have Second Wind, clerics Blessed Resilience, wizards Arcane Inspiration etc.
The details are undefined at the mo', which makes Sett's patented brand of hatred all the more baffling.
QuoteI don't mean to interrupt this deep conversation, but, really, it all depends on whether second wind is a feat (fine, whatevs) or some kind of brownie point (grrrr). And right now we don't really know which of the two it is, no?
Basically, that´s the situation.
SWSE has it for everyone, except mooks (double grrr).
Which, together with other playtest reports (fight vs. dragon) is not a good sign.
Quote from: SettembriniBasically, that´s the situation.
SWSE has it for everyone, except mooks (double grrr).
Which, together with other playtest reports (fight vs. dragon) is not a good sign.
You know what? I don't like mook rules either. And for that matter, I'm not very fond of D&D NPC classes. I'm cool with some classes being more combat-focused than others, but "mook rules" bug me.
Quote from: Caesar SlaadYou know what: fuck off yourself.
I had to put up with all this incessant whining over aspects of 3e that I felt worked just fine.
Now that the authors seem to be determined to shake things up more than just fix what's actually broke, I'm all for holding the designers' feet to the fire in the (probably vain) hopes something worthwhile comes out of it.
So you don't like these threads? Don't read 'em.
O RLY? Where do you think I'm coming from, here? Did you think I wasn't there for people bitching incessantly about 3rd Edition? Didn't
that get old real fucking fast?
You thought it worked just fine. You called it incessant whining. Ok. I was there. It
did get old, fast.
And now it's happening again. Our favorite moon-Prussian is whining about an edition of a role-playing game that isn't even out yet. He is whining about clips of sneak previews about a game that is 8 months from being released.
It's already old.
Why do I read these threads? Because I didn't know what Second Wind even was, and I wanted to know. That's information that interested me a little bit. But what irritates me is the whining. And now, you.
Fuck you, too, man. What? Are you going to kick me out of the thread? Honestly, my statement of irritation is much smaller then the constant pissing that fills this forum, so if you're going to get on my case, you'd be better served to light a fire under some other asses first. Until you do, get the fuck off mine, ok?
Quote from: Thanatos02Fuck you, too, man. What? Are you going to kick me out of the thread? Honestly, my statement of irritation is much smaller then the constant pissing that fills this forum, so if you're going to get on my case, you'd be better served to light a fire under some other asses first. Until you do, get the fuck off mine, ok?
"Good. Use your aggressive feelings, boy. Let the hate flow through you."
(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a10/mom2febgirls/Smilies/star-wars-emperor.gif)
Quote from: Caesar Slaad"Good. Use your aggressive feelings, boy. Let the hate flow through you."
(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a10/mom2febgirls/Smilies/star-wars-emperor.gif)
I've been Sith for a long time, by now. ;)
What is more idiotic and pathetic than someone on the internet posting in a thread "I don´t like this thread"?
I really don´t get it.
And again: speculating about 4e is le raison d´Être pour le Jeux de Roles Site. Especially 8 months earlier.
Quote from: SettembriniWhat is more idiotic and pathetic than someone on the internet posting in a thread "I don´t like this thread"?
I really don´t get it.
And again: speculating about 4e is le raison d´Être pour le Jeux de Roles Site. Especially 8 months earlier.
Speculation is fine. But you're criticizing "second wind" without the proper context. Is it a feat, a class ability, or something that everyone can do? We don't know yet, so the criticism is pointless until we fully understand what the ability is. Don't you agree?
Quote from: Sacrificial LambSpeculation is fine. But you're criticizing "second wind" without the proper context. Is it a feat, a class ability, or something that everyone can do? We don't know yet, so the criticism is pointless until we fully understand what the ability is. Don't you agree?
Settembrini's complaint is more along the lines of, "I aint never heard of it, it sounds stupid, I'm having a wonderful snit so I'll ignore information it refers to a real thing."
That's right, Settembrini's a Second Wind Denialist. :emot-moore: :tinfoil:
:rolleyes:
I laid out my arguments for everybody to see. Go, look em up!
I'm in the "I liked it in SWSE because it fit the movies, but not sure about having it in D&D" camp.
I think the biggest problem for me is that hit points are already an abstraction of exactly this kind of thing. If you start out with 20 hit points and are reduced to 5, but still keep fighting, to me that's already being on your second wind.
Of course, D&D has been moving away from abstraction for a while now (what with everyone getting multiple attacks, things like feats, etc).
I guess I'd rather they either just completely get rid of hit points and make combat less abstract, or go back to making it more abstract and not throw in stuff like second wind.
It's not a dealbreaker for me with 4e by itself, though. But it is yet another piece of information that makes me think that the game is overpowering the PCs way too much.
I agree with everything jgants has said.
Well reasoned point jgants.
I'm still wondering whether this is there as a feat, as a generic thing everyone can do, whether monsters get it, etc.
Quote from: SettembriniThis line of argumentation leads to ridicolousness.
Well, thanks for my new .sig, anyway. This is the silliest damn post in a while.
That is all.
Quote from: jgantsOf course, D&D has been moving away from abstraction for a while now (what with everyone getting multiple attacks, things like feats, etc).
I guess I'd rather they either just completely get rid of hit points and make combat less abstract, or go back to making it more abstract and not throw in stuff like second wind.
I am very pleased they're moving away from abstract combat for D&D 4e. :)
Eeeeexcellent. :)
Quote from: SettembriniHitpoints are abstractions.
abstraction =! dramatic device.
Point of syntax:
abstraction
!= dramatic device
Really, Sett, you should be playing GURPS.
Quote from: walkerpPoint of syntax:
abstraction != dramatic device
Really, Sett, you should be playing GURPS.
Yes, he should ....even if he did think it was a joke.
He might enjoy the current punchlines.
- Ed C.
You get the feeling with 4e (and this could be more of a function of the way information is trickling down than the game itself) that they are just throwing in neat things to differentiate it from 3e but that there is no unifying design principles behind the system. A second wind here, a mook rule there and hey presto, new edition!
Quote from: walkerpYou get the feeling with 4e (and this could be more of a function of the way information is trickling down than the game itself) that they are just throwing in neat things to differentiate it from 3e but that there is no unifying design principles behind the system. A second wind here, a mook rule there and hey presto, new edition!
It appears that the unifying design philosophy is a greater focus on the encounter as the primary instance of play, which is why we're seeing the redesign of the magic system, the inclusion of powers and manuevers and the assignation of tactical roles etc. An upshot of this is an attempt to keep things moving at a brisk pace, hence the mook rules and Second Wind.
Interesting. That makes sense. I wonder how that will affect the adventure-y, exploratory nature of D&D?
Quote from: walkerpInteresting. That makes sense. I wonder how that will affect the adventure-y, exploratory nature of D&D?
That's the concern that's prompted all these threads.
On topic, I'm in agreement with those who don't see the point of adding second wind as an ability for all PCs. As a perk or bennie-type attribute, I could live with it.
Quote from: KenHRThat's the concern that's prompted all these threads.
On topic, I'm in agreement with those who don't see the point of adding second wind as an ability for all PCs. As a perk or bennie-type attribute, I could live with it.
It doesn't benefit all PCs evenly though. A fighter with a lot of hit points will get a lot more mileage out of it than someone with a d4. Overall, I'm for it as it calls for fewer battle medics and isn't any lamer than AoOs.
Quote from: walkerpInteresting. That makes sense. I wonder how that will affect the adventure-y, exploratory nature of D&D?
It seems to me like it would mostly just speed that sort of play up, since at it's basest level it means that you get to kick down more doors per day because your mid-range abilities refresh as soon as the door goes flying.
Quote from: KenHRThat's the concern that's prompted all these threads.
On topic, I'm in agreement with those who don't see the point of adding second wind as an ability for all PCs. As a perk or bennie-type attribute, I could live with it.
So it should be reserved to special children. Bork that. It's good enough for the important folks, it's good enough for the schlubs.
Scenario: The party has pretty much wiped the floor with a band of goblins. all but one warrior who, in a supreme effort, rallies for one final effort (Second Wind) and brings the fighter facing him to negative hit points with one mighty blow. In the shock and confusion attendant upon his deed he escapes to live another day (and gets enough experience to reach 2nd level as a fighter).
Perhaps it's just me, but in a game filled with magical means of instant healing, a Second Wind ability just doesn't seem necessary.
I've got nothing against it as a mechanic, thematic or otherwise. I just don't see the point when you've got a cleric at hand.
I also dread conversations like this:
"I could really use a heal!"
"You're fine. Use your Second Wind!"
":eek:"
Quote from: Arsenic CanaryPerhaps it's just me, but in a game filled with magical means of instant healing, a Second Wind ability just doesn't seem necessary.
I've got nothing against it as a mechanic, thematic or otherwise. I just don't see the point when you've got a cleric at hand.
I also dread conversations like this:
"I could really use a heal!"
"You're fine. Use your Second Wind!"
":eek:"
With Second Wind you don't need an appointment.
Winner, most resounding support:
Quote from: ghost ratOverall, I'm for it as it calls for fewer battle medics and isn't any lamer than AoOs.
No...wait..that isn't right...
I've got an idea.
Leave it in - leave it all in. Give Rogues that ability to fight, cast magic, and heal so that you don't need anything but a group of rogues. Give wizards the ability to wear armor, wield any weapon, attack through stealth, etc. - that way you can get by without anything but wizards...
The idea that second wind is good so you don't rely on clerics flies directly in the face of the niche approach...
Quote from: mythusmageSo it should be reserved to special children. Bork that. It's good enough for the important folks, it's good enough for the schlubs.
Scenario: The party has pretty much wiped the floor with a band of goblins. all but one warrior who, in a supreme effort, rallies for one final effort (Second Wind) and brings the fighter facing him to negative hit points with one mighty blow. In the shock and confusion attendant upon his deed he escapes to live another day (and gets enough experience to reach 2nd level as a fighter).
Honestly, I don't like second wind much at all for anyone, but I could live with it if it were presented as a chi-type power or something available as a perk.
And I could narrate that scenario using 1e AD&D, no need for additional hit points.
But it's all down to taste at this point. 4e isn't going to be a game for me, just as 3e wasn't.
Quote from: James J SkachI've got an idea.
Leave it in - leave it all in. Give Rogues that ability to fight, cast magic, and heal so that you don't need anything but a group of rogues. Give wizards the ability to wear armor, wield any weapon, attack through stealth, etc. - that way you can get by without anything but wizards...
The idea that second wind is good so you don't rely on clerics flies directly in the face of the niche approach...
Are you saying that getting back 1/4 of your HPs only when you're already below half makes a healer unnecessary?
Sorry, I'm not seeing it.
-O
"It conflicts with my personal experience, which is universally applicable."
Quote from: obrynAre you saying that getting back 1/4 of your HPs only when you're already below half makes a healer unnecessary?
Sorry, I'm not seeing it.
-O
Ummm...I didn't make the argument, someone else did. I'm pointing out one simple reason it fails miserably. You seem to be pointing out another, but it depends completely on the specifics of the implementation that I don't know yet. I do know they've said they will keep the niche, so I was going with the line of reasoning for the moment.
Neither address the issue I don't like about it, but to mythus' point, I admit it is completely subjective (as I have with every speculative discussion here to date).
Quote from: Arsenic Canary"I could really use a heal!"
"You're fine. Use your Second Wind!"
":eek:"
That, to me, is one of the best arguments for it I've heard so far. Don't get me wrong, when I play a cleric I heal people during combat, but it'd be nice to have them capable of healing themselves without greatly interrupting their own flow a little, even if it's only once per day per character.
I get what Sett means, I just don't understand the aversion from the 3.5 to 4th barrier. Through every edition of D&D mechanics have been added for flavor or color: specializations, dual-class, multi-class, skills, barbarians, weapon penalties vs. type of armor, feats, kits, prestige classes, 20 different polearms or swords, gnomes, critical hits, fumbles, martial arts (keeyah), etc... I rediscovered Basic D&D when 3.0 was coming out and what I eventually realized was that I didn't need all of those mechanics to deliver that level of flavor to a game. A lot of the guys I played with did though and it was disheartening for them to go backwards.
It could be I've become a grognard.
Just a couple things. If it's like SWSE then it's only usable once per day, which I doubt will make the cleric's healing redundant. Also, NPCs and monsters don't automatically get it in SWSE, but they can use a feat to get it. In addition, it was my understanding that HP progression was going to be slower in 4e, so perhaps this ability is meant to help characters survive long enough to be healed. Also, it seems to me it wouldn't be that hard to houserule out. Personally, I like it.
Quote from: GunslingerI get what Sett means, I just don't understand the aversion from the 3.5 to 4th barrier. Through every edition of D&D mechanics have been added for flavor or color: specializations, dual-class, multi-class, skills, barbarians, weapon penalties vs. type of armor, feats, kits, prestige classes, 20 different polearms or swords, gnomes, critical hits, fumbles, martial arts (keeyah), etc... I rediscovered Basic D&D when 3.0 was coming out and what I eventually realized was that I didn't need all of those mechanics to deliver that level of flavor to a game. A lot of the guys I played with did though and it was disheartening for them to go backwards.
It could be I've become a grognard.
It can happen to the best of us. :)
I don't feel like a grognard, but I like the older editions too.
I'm not sure why this label 'grognard' is used by some as a badge of honour and by others as an insult. We all like particular games for various reasons, and its very hard to argue the case that any edition or version of any game is in all ways 'better' than any other*. That we can argue a case for certain aspects of games making for a better overall gaming experience is all part of the charm of RPGs.
*Except for BECMI D&D, which is clearly better than any other version. Hands down. Thats the one exception to that rule. Obviously.
Quote from: CabI'm not sure why this label 'grognard' is used by some as a badge of honour and by others as an insult.
For the same reason that nerd, geek, and Guy Named James have been converted to badges of honor. If someone "doesn't belong" the tendency is to either bitch about it, or turn their own style into another group so they do belong somewhere. The natural reaction at that point, is to respond to the prior alienation with elitism of your own.
Quote from: James McMurrayFor the same reason that nerd, geek, and Guy Named James have been converted to badges of honor. If someone "doesn't belong" the tendency is to either bitch about it, or turn their own style into another group so they do belong somewhere. The natural reaction at that point, is to respond to the prior alienation with elitism of your own.
Wait...we have a group? And there are badges? Son of a bitch...
Sorry, you're just not James-y enough. However, we're trying to get badges, and are having a funds drive. Perhaps if you were to contribute to letting us display out uberness with a little fundage, we'd reconsider your application. PM me for paypal info.
Quote from: James McMurraySorry, you're just not James-y enough. However, we're trying to get badges, and are having a funds drive. Perhaps if you were to contribute to letting us display out uberness with a little fundage, we'd reconsider your application. PM me for paypal info.
Can we make the badges mean "Go James!" in the imperative? Otherwise, I think I already have the necessary accessories to be part of the Guy Named James club.
Oh, and I have a new theory about Jamesness - JJS. Since it stands for Just James Skach, I've excluded all you regular James'. Everyone will want to be in my club because it's way more exclusive....
And you're absolutely sure they're including second wind in DnD? In SWS, it reads more as if it was a stopgap replacement for its DnD counterpart. Healing spells.
Quote from: beejazzAnd you're absolutely sure they're including second wind in DnD? In SWS, it reads more as if it was a stopgap replacement for its DnD counterpart. Healing spells.
Now
that would make sense to me...
Except that I believe it was in a play example - whcih may or may not mean anythign at this point.
Quote from: James J SkachCan we make the badges mean "Go James!" in the imperative? Otherwise, I think I already have the necessary accessories to be part of the Guy Named James club.
I like it! Maybe we use a gold hexagon as the symbol?
QuoteOh, and I have a new theory about Jamesness - JJS. Since it stands for Just James Skach, I've excluded all you regular James'. Everyone will want to be in my club because it's way more exclusive....
Now you've truly understood my teachings, Grasshopper. Go forth and James in honor.
You wanna know what's funny?
That Sett's totally fucking nuts.
Also, that the name on all my ID is James.
That's all. I'm pretty much a just counting down to 4th Edition these days, so there's not a lot of game chatter here I want in on. And most of the rest of the conversation is a big bucket of melodrama. So, you guys have a nice fight.
Quote from: Christmas ApeAlso, that the name on all my ID is James.
I knew there was a reason I liked you from the start. :)
Quote from: SettembriniI give up. Your categories are all in shambles, your aesthetics twisted.
Again, ask yourself why not all characters should be flying from level one.
Or have machine guns. Surely machine guns are literary devices. Hah! double layered pun in there!
But... DnD could most certainly benefit from the inclusions of machine guns!
Quote from: beejazzBut... DnD could most certainly benefit from the inclusions of machine guns!
Monkeys with machine guns! :haw:
D&D machine-gun = high level M-U w/magic-missile.
At least, in 1e...I think they capped it later on.
An AD&D Fighter putting all his specialazations into darts was pretty close to a machine gun at first level, and just got worse as time went by.
Quote from: James McMurrayAn AD&D Fighter putting all his specialazations into darts was pretty close to a machine gun at first level, and just got worse as time went by.
Thank you for that trip back memory lane James. :D
Erm, a second wind (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_wind)?
(Obviously not just for runners. The body is a wonderful thing. Well, not mine maybe, but in general...)
In-game, it can be justified by many things. Shock is wearing off, endorphins, adrenaline, willpower coming through. It's also a neat resource to play with, not quite unlikely to a cure wounds potion. Should I use it now or not?
Also, feats that add another second wind add another, much-needed tool for modeling tough characters.
What's your history of physical exertion, Sett? Never experienced something like this?
Quote from: GunslingerThank you for that trip back memory lane James. :D
That's what I'm here for. :)