Given that you're using SWSE as an example (I have the book, I've yet to read it though), I'll counter-example with Iron Heroes -- pardon the "square one" explanation as I don't know if you're familiar with IH:

In addition to hit points you have a reserve points pool.  When you're outside of combat you can transfer RPs to HPs up to your CON score per day.  As there's no healing magic, its meant to supplant that limitation.  Now there's a Trait, one that my IH character has, where you can make the transfer as a full-round action, making it much more useful in a combat situation.  

Given that IH is a Mearls design, like much of 4e will be, I'm inclined to think second wind will go in IH's direction.  The SWSE method of second wind might be more inclined to Star Wars styled gaming, but IH's method seems to me more D&D-like.

I give up. Your categories are all in shambles, your aesthetics twisted.

Again, ask yourself why not all characters should be flying from level one.
Or have machine guns. Surely machine guns are literary devices. Hah! double layered pun in there!

Quote from: SettembriniI give up. Your categories are all in shambles, your aesthetics twisted.

Again, ask yourself why not all characters should be flying from level one.
Or have machine guns. Surely machine guns are literary devices. Hah! double layered pun in there!

So you're saying that the real-world huscarles simply hadn't gotten to a high enough level to "lay on hands"? I thought "lay on hands" started at first level?

By the way, you might want to bold that pun, because I don't see it.

Sett, the point that *I* had tried and failed to make was that "second wind" as it is in SWSE fits in with the Star Wars milieu.  But we don't know for sure what "second wind" means in a D&D milieu and gave an example of a Mearls-design that does something similar.  

Obviously none of us have any answers at this point and, for another thread topic, this tidbits that the 4e designers throw at us seem to be doing as much harm as good in terms of formulating public opinion.  But I've read enough of Mearls' thoughts and played enough of his matierial to give him the benefit of the doubt in this regard.

Now I look forward to next year to try out my new Mearls-version Rust Monster Paladin...

Quote from: ColonelHardissonYou are really on shaky ground with such a statement. The entirety of D&D is based on literature and movies, with a small dash of medieval history. Every class except for maybe the fighter - and that is arguable - and the NPC classes (except the adept) springs from "literary artificialities."

But the mechanics weren't originally meant to simulate dramatic devices from novels and movies. That's where Sett is coming from - he doesn't like mixing the cheese from pop culture with the meat of gaming.

I pretty much agree with him. When I see people saying they want their gaming to be like wuxia or Buffy, it sounds to me like someone who wants their architecture to be like dance. Furthemore, since I have no interest whatsoever in 98 per cent of the geek pop culture out there, any moves to simulate their artifices with game mechanics for drama and stunts and so forth is only going to alienate me further. Give me mechanics that can be supportable without modeling dramatic devices and I'm happy.

Colonel, you really don't get what Settembrini's talking about. I'm stunned.

A major part of the awesomeness of D&D has always been that it's not a mere passive, unimaginative gameification of stuff drawn from other media such as novels or film--but that it's rather its own medium whose elements are chosen and related to one another according to its own rules.

7th Sea, which I happen to love, is a perfect example for what D&D is not, and to which it *may* be edging closer by way of this second wind thing (except that unlike Herr S. I refuse to be convinced that I know just how central iit's going to be, based on that sketchy play report).

Quote from: HaffrungBut the mechanics weren't originally meant to simulate dramatic devices from novels and movies. That's where Sett is coming from - he doesn't like mixing the cheese from pop culture with the meat of gaming.

I pretty much agree with him. When I see people saying they want their gaming to be like wuxia or Buffy, it sounds to me like someone who wants their architecture to be like dance. Furthemore, since I have no interest whatsoever in 98 per cent of the geek pop culture out there, any moves to simulate their artifices with game mechanics for drama and stunts and so forth is only going to alienate me further. Give me mechanics that can be supportable without modeling dramatic devices and I'm happy.

QFT.

Quote from: SettembriniWhat is a second wind supposed to model?

An adrenalin/endorphin rush? The fight-or-flight response? The well-known tendency for people with their backs against the wall to fight faster and harder than those who still have a way to go?

Quote from: WarthurAn adrenalin/endorphin rush? The fight-or-flight response? The well-known tendency for people with their backs against the wall to fight faster and harder than those who still have a way to go?

So, like, a second wind?

If I could just interject for a moment--you guys are doing a decent job on selling me the new edition. I might even play it! And then I shall post a glowing AP and imagine Settembrini gnashing his teeth.

Quote from: SettembriniNo, he´s a Brabarian. Barbarians can do stuff. This is not a dramatic device.
It´s because he´s a barbarian.

A Barbarian is a Barbarian.

Why should an angry, shouting man who isn't giving two shits about his own safety from one culture be any more dangerous than an angry, shouting man who isn't giving two shits about his own safety from another culture? And why should being angry, shouting, and not giving two shits about your own safety make you a better combatant than someone who's actually in control of themselves, hm?

Quote from: SettembriniColonel:

The worst thing you can do to support any rule, is bringing up (fantasy) novels. All those genre trappings and artificialities: I loathe them. I game to get away from them. If a horse is only there when it is convenient, and away when it´s not, this is an abomination not to be lauded but to be avoided.

Sett, stepping away from RPGs for a moment: what fiction books do you particularly like? Or can you not stand fiction at all?

I ask because you seem to rage against genre trappings and artificialities as if a) they're inherent to all fiction and b) any argument based on fiction must be based on them.

Quote from: SettembriniFrom a tactical perspective it´s lame too. As you said, there´s already potions etc. No need to introduce something else. But what they are doing in fact, is you must spend a swift action to heal some more. This is not ressource management, this is just boosting the players, making them more powerful. It´s a no brainer to use, because it doesn´t cost money or anything else. It´s free HPs. You are dumb if you aren´t using it. Totally uninteresting, I´d say, at least if it´s like SWSE.
EDIT: once per day, IIRC

Don't know much about modern D&D, but (a) I get what you're saying, Sett, but (b) maybe this mechanic could be saved if it's structured in such a way that a person can be prevented from using it by an opponent who presses an advantage. E.g., if you use it in the middle of combat, you trigger an AoO, and if hit, you lose the "second wind".

Not sure how to save the "once/day" element, though.

My question would be, why once per day?  It's so...Vancian...

Why not just add 20% to everyone's HP across the board? Big numbers are nice. Of course, you would have to add to the damage dealt by monsters to balance it out...heck, let's just have a game about flying giant bears who shoot lasers out of their eyes which do d10,000 damage...  

Sounds cool, except for those (like me, and apparently Sett) who believe that simple inflation of power does not lead to more fun.