Quote from: Settembrini@In D&D: Yes, in D&D. All the fantasy superpowers make sense within the universe. second wind is comic book logic. It has absolutely no connection to the fantasy universe.

Huh? D&D is a collage of mechanics and fantasy elements drawn absolutely randomly from a variety of sources, historical as well as fictional. It only "makes sense" for us if we like the end result and because we're used to it. One more tidbit (second wind) will do much the same: it will make sense or not, based on our tastes.

Monks never made sense to me and they're perfectly ok for others. It's really no big deal. It's no use pretending "second wind" is somehow violating your darling D&D. And just so you know, second wind isn't limited to TV shows. It's a dramatic device that goes way farther and can be seen in many of the influences of D&D such as Howard, Leiber, etc...

Get a grip. You're acting like they dropped laser guns and telepath Rottweilers in a carefully researched, historical dark age RPG.

I loathe all dramatic devices.
Hence they actually DID drop Mimes into my Call of Cthulhu.

Quote from: Consonant DudeHuh? D&D is a collage of mechanics and fantasy elements drawn absolutely randomly from a variety of sources, historical as well as fictional. It only "makes sense" for us if we like the end result and because we're used to it.

Some players find metagaming ruins their immersion. My group used to let the DM roll all the dice and do all look-ups for this reason; they didn't want to say or do anything other than what PC would know in-game.

Me, I think 4E is going to be so different from my D&D (I don't play 3.x) that it doesn't really matter - it's going to be a totally metagamed exercise in tactics and PC builds anyway. But maybe it will be a game I can play when I want to play something dramatically different from the type of D&D we normally play.

I suppose other people are finding some of the proposed changes from 3 to 4 cross their own thresholds of metagaming.

Quote from: Thanatos02Look, I appreciate the heads up, for all of us who arn't following the spoilers, but the endless fucking complaining about the wussification of D&D is getting old.

I don't know what you want out of it, and frankly, I don't really care. If you're so sure you're going to hate the new edition, why not just fuck off and play something else?

My thoughts exactly. Settembrini, you're sounding like the worst of the whiners and grogtards posting over at EN World. You don't want that on your soul, now, do you?

Regardless, second wind strikes me as something I've read in a lot of sword & sorcery books and stories, where the protagonist is getting his ass handed to him. He's backed into a corner, and things are looking grim. Blood and sweat are running into his eyes. He may even have slipped and gone to one knee. Suddenly something - a thought of a loved one, a primal urge to survive, whatever - crosses his mind and, digging down deep, he dredges up a reserve of energy he didn't know he had and surges up and forward to fight on. Seen it in everything from Conan to Elric. "Second wind" in the combat example seems like it could be usable after the character loses more than half his hit points, which Tian, who uses it, had lost in the previous round.

I'm also wondering if you're familiar with the term "second wind." It's a pretty common idiom, and the example seems to indicate it's based more on that concept than anything in a movie - here are some definitions of the term from  //www.thefreedictionary.com that might be enlightening:

QuoteNoun   1.   second wind - renewed energy or strength to continue an undertaking; "She had dinner and got a second wind to finish painting"; "the employers, initially taken by surprise at the pace of developments, regained their second wind"
get-up-and-go, push, energy - enterprising or ambitious drive; "Europeans often laugh at American energy"
   2.   second wind - the return of relatively easy breathing after initial exhaustion during continuous exertion

Why do people try to dicuss things with Sett anymore? All he wants to do is complain and ignore counterpoints. Thank him for the useless info he brings, and move on. It's a lot easier, and has the exact same effect at the end of the day.

Hey Sett! Thanks for pointing out the article! 'preciate 'cha!

QuoteMy thoughts exactly. Settembrini, you're sounding like the worst of the whiners and grogtards posting over at EN World. You don't want that on your soul, now, do you?

1) I´m not so sure anymore.

2) I´m not saying 4e is "teh EVIL"! and it´s players are all munchkins!

I´m saying the literary device you mentioned seems to be the last step in non-experiential game design that drives me away from current D&D.

They are changing stuff I think is not broken, and they are introducing stuff that I actually hate. Stuff like this:

QuoteHe's backed into a corner, and things are looking grim. Blood and sweat are running into his eyes. He may even have slipped and gone to one knee. Suddenly something - a thought of a loved one, a primal urge to survive, whatever - crosses his mind and, digging down deep, he dredges up a reserve of energy he didn't know he had and surges up and forward to fight on.

SuckSuckSuck!
This is so lame in books and movies, I hate it! I game to get away from this shit!

See, I´m a big proponent of 3.5, so I´m part of the audience for 4e. I´m not whining that I can burn my books now. No problem with buying again. But buying again to get "he tightened his grip, till the knuckles appeared white behind the skin"-move -> SUCK!

I tolerate a lot of stuff, but second wind is really borderline. I mean will every monster have it? Why not, if not?
See where this is going?

Did I mention that I hatehatehate 7th sea and all mook rules?

Ok, could you people PLEASE cut-and-paste the articles or relevant sections to the thread you're talking about?? Not everyone will be subscribed to the D&D online service!!

RPGPundit

Pundit,
Are you banned on WotC-boards?
Because it´s the same log-in. No need to sign up on DDI.

Here it is.

Quote

We work hard at Wizards, but some of our work is all play. I recruited my gaming buddies to test the game further at home and to see what its like to DM with the new rules. The players got to test the character side of things, and I got to experience adventure building and monsters.

 

My players like a reason to adventure together beyond being mutually employed by the same bloke who relies on the local watering hole to hire mercenaries. So they created a mostly human party of 1st level PCs who are all affiliated with a local count. The warlord, Domna, is the baron's youngest daughter, and Tian, the rogue, is Domna's lifelong friend and also the son of the leader of baron's personal mercenary troop. Sasha, the wizard, is daughter to the baron's chancellor, and guarding her is Robozcniek, a warforged fighter. Rounding out the group is Heron, and eladrin ranger who was a childhood friend of Tian and Domna. Long story short, the political situation made the count's having a team of specialists with a little legal authority a good thing. My having a party under direct influence of a local ruler was even better.

 

I wanted to whip up something that showcased the new game's tech, but I wanted to do it quickly. Using Own K. C. Stevens's A Dark and Stormy Knight as inspiration, I designed a haunted tomb under a tor. One of the count's barons had been rewarding retiring soldiers with frontier land near the tor, and these farmers recently spotted goblin scouts ranging toward a fallen tower built atop the tor by citizens of a long-gone hobgoblin kingdom. Then a little girl disappeared, along with some livestock. The count dispatched Domna and her friends to investigate the situation.

 

After traveling to the outlying farmsteads, which were fortified yards surrounded by fields, and speaking with one of the farmers, the PCs determined that one home might have come under attack the night before. They investigated, and they soon saw the farm's stockade gate was open and the inner yard, where livestock was usually kept at night, was empty but drenched in blood. Heron noticed some large wolf tracks leading into the yard, and the party cautiously entered, expecting goblins.

 

Right they were. To the east, Heron spotted saddled wolves in the barn and a goblin archer in the barn's loft. Tian spied another goblin peeking out of the modest farmhouse to the north. Neither chose to warn their oblivious comrades, so a surprise round was my players' first contact with 4th Edition combat.

 

Their second impression came squarely from the three arrows with which Heron skewered the hapless goblin sharpshooter in the loft. That poor goblin fired on Heron, missing but triggering an immediate counterattack from the ranger, who followed up with two more arrows on his turn. The sharpshooter was dead before the third arrow struck home.

 

Taking a cue from Heron's boldness, thinking the fight might be over quickly, Tian rushed to the house despite protests from Domna that he was overextending himself and thereby the party. Tian arrived at the closed front door and threw it open, but couldn't quite reach the javelin-wielding miscreant within.

 

Too far out in front, Tian and Heron soon learned their mistake. The wolves rushed Heron, easily flanking him and pulling him to the ground. The goblin skirmisher in the house hurled a black-shafted javelin at Tian and scored a critical hit! Tian lost more than half his hit points in one blow, and to add insult to injury, the goblin then scampered out of the house's open back door to a tree on its west side.

 

But then the first regular round started. Domna rushed a wolf and missed it, after shouting encouragement to her friends (providing a small bonus to them). The wolves continued to tear at Heron, almost sending the unfortunate ranger to death's door. Sasha used a wizard strike with her staff, not only injuring a wolf, but also pushing it away from the prone Heron. This gave Heron the room he needed to stand, move away from his assailants, and regain a few hit points with a second wind. On his first regular turn, Tian used his second wind, then pursued the goblin by leaving the front door and running to intercept at the tree. He missed the wily skirmisher with his attack. The goblin cackled and backed away, then hurled another javelin at Tian—for another natural 20! Down Tian went, dying. Moving closer to Tian, the skirmisher started to reach for the knife on his belt to finish the rogue off. Robozcniek cut that thought short, literally, running across the battlefield, then charging the skirmisher and finishing the little dastard with one swift longsword stroke.

 

On the second regular round, Domna struck the wounded wolf, trying to keep it off Heron. That wolf attacked Domna, but she fended it off with her shield. But the uninjured wolf smelled blood, and it took Heron down again, this time knocking the eladrin out. Sasha maneuvered to blast both wolves with another strike from her staff, pushing the one attacking Heron away again. Robozcniek rushed across the battlefield a second time, and he terribly wounded the wolf that had been attacking Heron.

 

As the initiative count came to the top again, Domna used her tactical acumen to attack in such a way that the wolf she hit opened itself up to Robozcniek. The warforged struck true, and the wolf collapsed in a heap. Badly wounded and alone against many enemies, the remaining wolf tucked tail and ran, but Sasha was having none of it. She pulled out all the stops and set off a fiery blast around the fleeing beast. It tumbled down, still smoldering.

 

Their first real battle over, the heroes still standing aided their fallen friends—who had learned a valuable lesson. Investigation of the farmstead and more adventure remained ahead of them.

I'm not banned, but I understand that EVENTUALLY all of those articles will be subscription-only content.

And in any case, not everyone IS signed up to WoTC, and it is my feeling that no one here should be FORCED to register on a different site just to have a fucking clue what you're talking about.

Its common posting courtesy.

So, everyone, please note the new Rule in the stickied thread above. And please comply with it.

RPGPundit

Quote from: SettembriniI loathe all dramatic devices.

Dramatic devices such as hit points?

Come on.  You like dramatic devices that you're familiar with.  It's the new stuff scares you.

-O

Quote from: SettembriniSuckSuckSuck!
This is so lame in books and movies, I hate it! I game to get away from this shit!

See, I´m a big proponent of 3.5, so I´m part of the audience for 4e. I´m not whining that I can burn my books now. No problem with buying again. But buying again to get "he tightened his grip, till the knuckles appeared white behind the skin"-move -> SUCK!

Have you never caught a second wind in real life? I have, and I'm sure a lot of others here have. Or is your life so devoid of physical exertion that you've just never experienced it? It's not just a movie/TV thing.

Quote from: SettembriniI tolerate a lot of stuff, but second wind is really borderline. I mean will every monster have it? Why not, if not?

Who the fuck knows? You're getting into a tizzy over sneak previews of a product that won't be released for 8 months. I mean, goddamn, you're asking questions that simply can't be answered right now, making assumptions about the answers, and then making a knee-jerk reaction to the assumptions you've made. Don't you see how silly that is?

My assumption is that second wind may well be a feat or a class ability for a certain class or classes, or perhaps something that is triggered conditionally, like when a character suffers more than half damage in a single attack. But who really knows? I'm curious about it, but I can wait to find out before making a decision on it.

Quote from: SettembriniSee where this is going?

No.

Quote from: SettembriniDid I mention that I hatehatehate 7th sea and all mook rules?

No, and what does that have to do with anything?

Quote from: obrynDramatic devices such as hit points?

Or levels. Or classes.

QuoteOr is your life so devoid of physical exertion that you've just never experienced it?

Yeah, that must be it...:rolleyes:

So, I voiced my concern, all arguments to counter them reinforced my concerns, AGAIN.

Have nice thread.

EDIT: The Fuck? Hitpoints are dramatic devices? Which novel? Which movie? Your categories are all in shambles, your tastes are not convincing or inspiring.

It burns, it burns, we hates it!