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Another 4e dealbreaker: second wind

Started by Settembrini, September 02, 2007, 05:26:53 AM

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walkerp

#135
September 04, 2007, 04:37:54 PM
Interesting. That makes sense.  I wonder how that will affect the adventure-y, exploratory nature of D&D?
"The difference between being fascinated with RPGs and being fascinated with the RPG industry is akin to the difference between being fascinated with sex and being fascinated with masturbation. Not that there\'s anything wrong with jerking off, but don\'t fool yourself into thinking you\'re getting laid." —Aos

KenHR

#136
September 04, 2007, 04:41:49 PM
Quote from: walkerpInteresting. That makes sense.  I wonder how that will affect the adventure-y, exploratory nature of D&D?

That's the concern that's prompted all these threads.

On topic, I'm in agreement with those who don't see the point of adding second wind as an ability for all PCs.  As a perk or bennie-type attribute, I could live with it.
For fuck\'s sake, these are games, people.

And no one gives a fuck about your ignore list.


Gompan
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ghost rat

#137
September 04, 2007, 05:10:18 PM
Quote from: KenHRThat's the concern that's prompted all these threads.

On topic, I'm in agreement with those who don't see the point of adding second wind as an ability for all PCs.  As a perk or bennie-type attribute, I could live with it.
It doesn't benefit all PCs evenly though. A fighter with a lot of hit points will get a lot more mileage out of it than someone with a d4. Overall, I'm for it as it calls for fewer battle medics and isn't any lamer than AoOs.
 

James McMurray

#138
September 04, 2007, 06:07:23 PM
Quote from: walkerpInteresting. That makes sense.  I wonder how that will affect the adventure-y, exploratory nature of D&D?

It seems to me like it would mostly just speed that sort of play up, since at it's basest level it means that you get to kick down more doors per day because your mid-range abilities refresh as soon as the door goes flying.

mythusmage

#139
September 04, 2007, 06:22:30 PM
Quote from: KenHRThat's the concern that's prompted all these threads.

On topic, I'm in agreement with those who don't see the point of adding second wind as an ability for all PCs.  As a perk or bennie-type attribute, I could live with it.

So it should be reserved to special children. Bork that. It's good enough for the important folks, it's good enough for the schlubs.

Scenario: The party has pretty much wiped the floor with a band of goblins. all but one warrior who, in a supreme effort, rallies for one final effort (Second Wind) and brings the fighter facing him to negative hit points with one mighty blow. In the shock and confusion attendant upon his deed he escapes to live another day (and gets enough experience to reach 2nd level as a fighter).
Any one who thinks he knows America has never been to America.

Arsenic Canary

#140
September 04, 2007, 06:33:31 PM
Perhaps it's just me, but in a game filled with magical means of instant healing, a Second Wind ability just doesn't seem necessary.

I've got nothing against it as a mechanic, thematic or otherwise.  I just don't see the point when you've got a cleric at hand.

I also dread conversations like this:

"I could really use a heal!"
"You're fine.  Use your Second Wind!"
":eek:"

mythusmage

#141
September 04, 2007, 06:37:44 PM
Quote from: Arsenic CanaryPerhaps it's just me, but in a game filled with magical means of instant healing, a Second Wind ability just doesn't seem necessary.

I've got nothing against it as a mechanic, thematic or otherwise.  I just don't see the point when you've got a cleric at hand.

I also dread conversations like this:

"I could really use a heal!"
"You're fine.  Use your Second Wind!"
":eek:"

With Second Wind you don't need an appointment.
Any one who thinks he knows America has never been to America.

James J Skach

#142
September 04, 2007, 07:48:52 PM
Winner, most resounding support:
Quote from: ghost ratOverall, I'm for it as it calls for fewer battle medics and isn't any lamer than AoOs.

No...wait..that isn't right...
The rules are my slave, not my master. - Old Geezer

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James J Skach

#143
September 04, 2007, 07:51:34 PM
I've got an idea.

Leave it in - leave it all in.  Give Rogues that ability to fight, cast magic, and heal so that you don't need anything but a group of rogues.  Give wizards the ability to wear armor, wield any weapon, attack through stealth, etc. - that way you can get by without anything but wizards...

The idea that second wind is good so you don't rely on clerics flies directly in the face of the niche approach...
The rules are my slave, not my master. - Old Geezer

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KenHR

#144
September 04, 2007, 08:17:39 PM
Quote from: mythusmageSo it should be reserved to special children. Bork that. It's good enough for the important folks, it's good enough for the schlubs.

Scenario: The party has pretty much wiped the floor with a band of goblins. all but one warrior who, in a supreme effort, rallies for one final effort (Second Wind) and brings the fighter facing him to negative hit points with one mighty blow. In the shock and confusion attendant upon his deed he escapes to live another day (and gets enough experience to reach 2nd level as a fighter).

Honestly, I don't like second wind much at all for anyone, but I could live with it if it were presented as a chi-type power or something available as a perk.

And I could narrate that scenario using 1e AD&D, no need for additional hit points.

But it's all down to taste at this point.  4e isn't going to be a game for me, just as 3e wasn't.
For fuck\'s sake, these are games, people.

And no one gives a fuck about your ignore list.


Gompan
band - other music

obryn

#145
September 04, 2007, 08:38:06 PM
Quote from: James J SkachI've got an idea.

Leave it in - leave it all in.  Give Rogues that ability to fight, cast magic, and heal so that you don't need anything but a group of rogues.  Give wizards the ability to wear armor, wield any weapon, attack through stealth, etc. - that way you can get by without anything but wizards...

The idea that second wind is good so you don't rely on clerics flies directly in the face of the niche approach...
Are you saying that getting back 1/4 of your HPs only when you're already below half makes a healer unnecessary?

Sorry, I'm not seeing it.

-O
 

mythusmage

#146
September 04, 2007, 09:08:34 PM
"It conflicts with my personal experience, which is universally applicable."
Any one who thinks he knows America has never been to America.

James J Skach

#147
September 04, 2007, 09:21:44 PM
Quote from: obrynAre you saying that getting back 1/4 of your HPs only when you're already below half makes a healer unnecessary?

Sorry, I'm not seeing it.

-O
Ummm...I didn't make the argument, someone else did.  I'm pointing out one simple reason it fails miserably.  You seem to be pointing out another, but it depends completely on the specifics of the implementation that I don't know yet. I do know they've said they will keep the niche, so I was going with the line of reasoning for the moment.

Neither address the issue I don't like about it, but to mythus' point, I admit it is completely subjective (as I have with every speculative discussion here to date).
The rules are my slave, not my master. - Old Geezer

The RPG Haven - Talking About RPGs

James McMurray

#148
September 04, 2007, 09:35:57 PM
Quote from: Arsenic Canary"I could really use a heal!"
"You're fine.  Use your Second Wind!"
":eek:"

That, to me, is one of the best arguments for it I've heard so far. Don't get me wrong, when I play a cleric I heal people during combat, but it'd be nice to have them capable of healing themselves without greatly interrupting their own flow a little, even if it's only once per day per character.

Gunslinger

#149
September 04, 2007, 09:53:33 PM
I get what Sett means, I just don't understand the aversion from the 3.5 to 4th barrier.  Through every edition of D&D mechanics have been added for flavor or color:  specializations, dual-class, multi-class, skills, barbarians, weapon penalties vs. type of armor, feats, kits, prestige classes, 20 different polearms or swords, gnomes, critical hits, fumbles, martial arts (keeyah), etc...  I rediscovered Basic D&D when 3.0 was coming out and what I eventually realized was that I didn't need all of those mechanics to deliver that level of flavor to a game.  A lot of the guys I played with did though and it was disheartening for them to go backwards.

It could be I've become a grognard.
 
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