This all dovetails into more frequently posted rants of mine about growing the hobby. ANY intellectual or social hassle or barrier to entry cuts off VAST numbers of people. So you need no-hassle social interactions - and there's no bigger hassle than organizing people. I've even been playing D&D minis a little lately just so I can go to the hobby shop, play, and leave without worrying about all this crap. They'll let me run an RPG there whether they sell it or not, and I have some other interested venues too, but I need a model where people just show up and play, with or without a character, with about five minutes of up-front investment. They need to be able to do it on a whim without the slightest interest in or commitment to me beyond 'huh, that looks interesting/fun.' I'm looking for methods and tricks to make that work.

If I don't like someone enough to want to be their friend I don't hang out with them. Not hanging out with someone makes RPGing pretty hard, so I guess I'd have to say that the idea doesn't suit me.

I do play games at conventions when I can, and that's fun, but for regular weekly play I want a regular weekly group of people I like.

Personally, I liked playing with friends better.  But then, that was back in college when you could hang out with friends all the time.  It might not be as big of a difference nowdays.

I play with acquaintances.  By which I mean - people I play regularly with but have no other social interactions beyond the sessions (well, that and I work at the same place with one of the guys).  I mostly play with them because I have no other option - I have but one friend in the area, and it takes months of planning just to go out to a movie together.

Gaming with complete strangers is OK, but I can't say I'd like to do that on a regular basis. If I did, I'd rather game with strangers who weren't "gamer" types - too many lawncrappers out there.

So, for me, the wistful thoughts of friendly gaming back in college appeal much more than gaming with strangers.  But then, my life has turned out to be much less than I'd hoped, making thoughts of college days appealing in general - so perhaps I'm too biased.

Quote from: James McMurrayIf I don't like someone enough to want to be their friend I don't hang out with them. Not hanging out with someone makes RPGing pretty hard, so I guess I'd have to say that the idea doesn't suit me.

I do play games at conventions when I can, and that's fun, but for regular weekly play I want a regular weekly group of people I like.

Seconded.

I like con games (heck, I played in a con game of WFRP Skaven last Saturday at Conceptions here in the UK with no one that I knew and it was an absolute blast) but if I want a regular, weekly game then I want to game with people that I can get along with and enjoy spending time with.

I'm kinda with you Calithena.

I like my group. I recruited most of the guys in it blindly, off the internet, and mainly talked to them via email before the game actually started. I also placed 2 longtime players in the group (one of which had to drop out after about 2 months). Over time  (our campaign is now 11 months old, we meet weekly and even travelled to Gen Con together) I have become friends with all of these guys. When one of the guys lost his job, we all pulled together and helped pass his resume around. When they found out it was my birthday, some of the guys gave me a gift. We're friends now, but we started as strangers.

The idea that you can (or should) only game with people you know and are friends with is.. strange to me. How do you meet anyone that way? Also, I sense incongruence: the main people promoting this "OMG, never game with anyone you aren't intimately familiar with!" are the same people who are pushing their "demo sessions" so hard at cons. I hardly play at cons, but I have no problem meeting new gamers when I want to.

Gaming is just as much a way to make new friends as it is to an activity to pursue with friends.

The danger (!) is real.  I'm not discounting that. The danger is you invite someone crazy to your game. That's what we're talkinG about.  But is it that dangerous? I mean, I screened people through email. I screened out some people I thought were kinda weird. One guy wrote me an email that said "I will need a ride, plus I never like to break character..Also, I would like to wear a costume..." (haha). I made sure not to invite that guy. No prob.

But come on.. What are people afraid of?

Even in cases where you get a psycho, or just an obnoxious jerk, you can pull the plug on the game, disinvite the bad guy, and restart the next week with the people who were cool the last time. I can think of three occaisions when I've done that. None of them were that horrible.

Once you have the group like you want it, your'e good. At that point, if everyones cool, you are on your way to making new friends through gaming. Meeting new people is cool. Plus, when you get good at gaming with strangers, your'e going to have a much easier time at cons.

At least in my case it's not fear, it's comfort. The group I game with works great. We don't need, nor have room for, anyone new. When scheduling problems come up and someone has to drop we invite someone new, but if you've already got a good mix, you don't bother throwing random ingredients in.

So dude is a gaming voyeur?

Quote from: jgantsSo, for me, the wistful thoughts of friendly gaming back in college appeal much more than gaming with strangers.  But then, my life has turned out to be much less than I'd hoped, making thoughts of college days appealing in general - so perhaps I'm too biased.

Thanks for the depressing honesty. Seriously, here's hoping the best, either in your fortunes or your general outlook.

Anonymous gaming worked pretty well for me back in grade school because, well, it wasn't really anonymous. We all knew each other at least somewhat, and bonds of class, geography, and a common enemy (TEACHERS!) united us. Plus, we had a lot of free time and a high density of people who had free time at the same time and place as us. College was similar.

These days I have to admit it's harder both in terms of organization and because the common interest in gaming doesn't imply shared values in any other part of life. It sure helps to have a FLGS that offers space for open gaming and sponsors mini-cons every few months. Even better is the active effort on the part of a few people here in the Bay Area to have a Thursday night open gaming session at one of the stores. I haven't actually attended that one yet, but I hope to, subject to spousal forebearance.

If I get into one of these things as a GM, I definitely plan on finding ways to facilitate quick play. Long, involved chargen? I'll bring pre-gens. But preferably I'll stick to stuff that allows quick generation, like Basic D&D or The Fantasy Trip. Scenarios need to be focused for teamwork and clear goals, or be robust enough (including mechanically) to support intragroup conflict and people wandering off. Plus there needs to be some way of signalling what kind of scenario this is.

As a player, I plan on being a good sport. Look, somebody wants to screw things up or attack my character, I'm cool with it. Just don't be a spotlight hog, a crybaby, or a ditherer. And if there's a GM, pay a little attention to their cues--they've got the hardest job, don't make things harder.

Quote from: CalithenaJimBob, your post astonishes me - normally I go to the Forge if I want that kind of social get-along spiel. I thought surely the cheetoists would have some sympathy for the view I'm expressing, but what do I know.

I think you've misunderstood both cheetoism and The Forge. They say, "System Matters." We say, "people matter" (we don't need capital letters for that stuff).

See the cheetoism wiki.

Quote from: CalithenaThis all dovetails into more frequently posted rants of mine about growing the hobby. ANY intellectual or social hassle or barrier to entry cuts off VAST numbers of people. So you need no-hassle social interactions - and there's no bigger hassle than organizing people.

It's true that roleplayers can be hard to organise, but you just need to have someone with balls to organise them for the first session, and after that give them a sense of investment so that they want to come back. I talk about that in the article Getting players to give a toss.

Aside from that, I think you're entirely wrong. Roleplaying is a social creative hobby; having to talk to the other people like human beings isn't a drawback of it, it's a feature. Saying that socialising with other gamers is a barrier to entry into roleplaying is like saying that getting fitter is a barrier to entry to social sports. It's not a barrier, it's one of the main attractions.

Jim Bob,

If the foundation of cheetoism lies in the social contract than the theory has exactly the same foundation as the big model. Really not interested in pursuing that further.

Your point about socializing and sports is an interesting one. More US citizens would play pick-up basketball, soccer, etc. if we weren't so damn fat, I'm pretty sure of that. So that supports my point. On the other hand, being fit is a reward, and a fun side effect of getting into sports. So that supports your point.

Anyway, I don't begrudge anyone gaming with their small group of friends. What frustrates me is that that seems to be the dominant model for RPG play. I want at least an alternate model where a basically anonymous group of people walk into a room, play a game together for a few hours, and leave, with no other commitment involved. As Eliot mentioned above, Basic D&D and Fantasy Trip made this possible for me and many others in primary and secondary school days; most modern RPGs don't seem to. I also think that having this second model at least as a 'bridge' form of play is vital to the hobby's continued growth.

-----------------

I have way more professional responsibilities and friends than I can possibly give the time and attention and respect and love they deserve. (What the fuck am I doing on the internet right now?!?) I really don't need any more. I need to be able to game on demand as a break from all that. I vastly prefer tabletop RPGs to any other form of game. Hence the interest in this kind of play.

Over here in Berlin, there´s a bunch of GMs, who cooperate in a Shadowrun-Community.
Gaming is in a public space, every week there´s at least two runs to choose from, runs last one session sharp, and are interconnected by a big storyline / effort.
You can switch and chose the GM and fellow gamers and always keep your character.
It´s really like a hop-off-hop-on ride.

Quote from: CalithenaIf the foundation of cheetoism lies in the social contract than the theory has exactly the same foundation as the big model.

No, it isn't. Not in Uncle Ronny's fucked-up-confused "Social Contract", nor even in genuine (Rosseau, or current sociology if you prefer) social contract theory.

From the Cheetoism wiki,
   The Cheetoist Philosophy

We game for the snacks. And also the dice. But mostly, just to hang out with friends and tell tall stories.

Rpg books are just a bunch of guidelines for how to tell your tall stories, and give you a fair excuse to roll lots of dice and eat cheetos. To make your games more fun, talk to your group.

In any game, it's part social, part game. For most gamers, it's social first, game second. Game first, social second - that's for people who get paid to do it. Mike Jordan never said to his coach, "but it's just a game, who cares about the rules"; he took it seriously, because of money. Well, give me ten million bucks a year to roleplay, and I'll take it seriously, too. Until then, I am a Cheetoist. That's it.

The purpose of this wiki is to provide practical advice to roleplaying gamers in support of the Cheetoist philosophy. If you game purely for the game itself, for competition, as group therapy, or education, then you are a crazy person and should go elsewhere.

The heart of the site is Why Game Groups Fuck Up, an e-book describing all the things which can go wrong and right in game groups. The essence of that is people first, everything else second. If you keep that in mind you won't go far wrong.

Quote from: CalithenaYour point about socializing and sports is an interesting one. More US citizens would play pick-up basketball, soccer, etc. if we weren't so damn fat, I'm pretty sure of that. So that supports my point. On the other hand, being fit is a reward, and a fun side effect of getting into sports. So that supports your point.

And we don't develop new kinds of ball games so that profoundly physically lazy people can play. I don't see why we'd develop roleplaying games which misanthropes could play.

Quote from: CalithenaAnyway, I don't begrudge anyone gaming with their small group of friends. What frustrates me is that that seems to be the dominant model for RPG play.

No. It's assumed you're friendly with those in your group, not that you're friends with them. Those are different things. A person who smiles at and stands for a pregnant woman on a train is being friendly; they're not suddenly bosom buddies, friends.

Roleplaying assumes that you more or less get along with the people in your game group, that you enjoy their company. You don't have to be in love with them, but you should basically like them. That's quite sufficient.

Quote from: CalithenaI want at least an alternate model where a basically anonymous group of people walk into a room, play a game together for a few hours, and leave, with no other commitment involved.

You mean a con?

Have you not ever been to a convention?

Quote from: CalithenaI also think that having this second model at least as a 'bridge' form of play is vital to the hobby's continued growth.

Surely if they enter not knowing each-other for a one-off session, they'll part not knowing each-other, never to game together again? How, exactly, will this "grow the hobby"? It's like saying, "if only people would have more one-night stands, more people would have sex." Actually, even a relatively unpassionate couple who are married get more sex than most people who stick to one-night stands. Similarly, a regular game group will get more gaming than someone who goes to a one-off session, and probably never goes back.

Or is it your hope that the one-night stand will lead to marriage? So, a one-off game leads to a regular game group. Well, game groups do this already. "Come along for a session, see how it goes, here's a pre-gen..."

Quote from: CalithenaI have way more professional responsibilities and friends than I can possibly give the time and attention and respect and love they deserve. (What the fuck am I doing on the internet right now?!?) I really don't need any more.

I do wonder what you're doing posting here if you're so terribly overwhelmed by your profusion of friends. Still, you've not got the distinction between "friends" - which most people will have just a few of - and "friendly" - which you can be with scores of people.

Quote from: CalithenaI need to be able to game on demand as a break from all that. I vastly prefer tabletop RPGs to any other form of game. Hence the interest in this kind of play.

What is it about face-to-face roleplaying that you prefer to MUDs, WoW, computer rpgs, pbem, etc? Is it... the presence of other people? Well, unless you pay someone to GM you, then you're going to have to talk to those people as though they're human beings worthy of respect. They won't be available to you "on demand." They'll have their own wishes and desires and troubles.

Without paying for it or relying on a computer, you're simply not going to get "game on demand". Those other gamers have lives, too. And some of them expect that you'll recognise that.

You won't like Cheetoism. That says that "people matter." Someone who complains that other gamers expect to be talked to, rather than just gamed with, and who wants "gaming on demand" obviously doesn't think that "people matter" in an rpg session.

Quote from: SettembriniOver here in Berlin, there´s a bunch of GMs, who cooperate in a Shadowrun-Community.
Gaming is in a public space, every week there´s at least two runs to choose from, runs last one session sharp, and are interconnected by a big storyline / effort.
You can switch and chose the GM and fellow gamers and always keep your character.
It´s really like a hop-off-hop-on ride.

Over here they call those "Living campaigns", only they tend to get organized on a continent or language speaking level. And all the good and bad that come with that. In fact there is a Shadowrun one that is based in Denver 2070. It has a series of runs on an arc. But the GM has a lot more leeway than with some other Living campaigns.

As I see it, in the hoary days of yesteryear, which for me were around 1994, and for a lot of people waaay before I was born, gaming was a lot like how Calithena described. RPG clubs, where you could bring your characters, sit down at the freaking tables and play a freaking game. If you didn't like the DM, you moved to the next table the next time. If you had something else to do, you didn't go to play and nobody seriously missed you because the campaign flow wasn't disrupted.

Today, the hobby is a completely different place. We game in private space, either because the clubs are gone (ours was killed by the Magic players, and our disenchantment with 2e AD&D), and we wouldn't go there anymore anyway (I tried to play in the university club ca. 2000, and just didn't like it at all). So RPGs are today hospitality games as in "I invite you to my home, and you'd better not missbehave, punk, or your ass is grass". Different social environment, different people I am willing to put up with, etc. No longer being a teenager, I am also a lot less tolerant about idiots - although, fortunately, I haven't met any lately.

Quote from: MelanAs I see it, in the hoary days of yesteryear, which for me were around 1994, and for a lot of people waaay before I was born, gaming was a lot like how Calithena described. RPG clubs, where you could bring your characters, sit down at the freaking tables and play a freaking game. If you didn't like the DM, you moved to the next table the next time. If you had something else to do, you didn't go to play and nobody seriously missed you because the campaign flow wasn't disrupted.

Today, the hobby is a completely different place. We game in private space, either because the clubs are gone (ours was killed by the Magic players, and our disenchantment with 2e AD&D), and we wouldn't go there anymore anyway (I tried to play in the university club ca. 2000, and just didn't like it at all). So RPGs are today hospitality games as in "I invite you to my home, and you'd better not missbehave, punk, or your ass is grass". Different social environment, different people I am willing to put up with, etc. No longer being a teenager, I am also a lot less tolerant about idiots - although, fortunately, I haven't met any lately.

Back when I first started gaming, around 1979, when dinosaurs roamed the Earth, and up through much of the 80s, this wasn't my experience at all. There were no gaming stores like there are today, perhaps a hobby shop here and there that devoted space to various types of games like Panzer Leader or the like, and which carried what few RPG books had been published. What few  RPG clubs we heard about were really just other groups like us, and we were just a single gaming group of 3-4 guys who met at one of our houses each week. There was none of this casually strolling into a roomful of gamers and picking and choosing when one gamed and with whom. That would have been virtually unimaginable.

Sometime in the early 80s there was a hobby shop I was aware of that let regular customers game in the basement, but that was as close to a club as one got - there weren't that many people involved, and they were all really just a small collection of groups like ours who used the shop as a place to have their weekly game. Besides that, this shop was too far for any of us to go to regularly, and eventually shut down and moved even further away to become a shop mostly devoted to model railroading.

So I never grew up with RPGs as a hobby where I could just drop in on a pick-up game somewhere. RPGs were more of a way for my friends and brother and me to hang out and do something together.