Quote from: Levi KornelsenHe also tends to make some very solid points.

That true. And his point in this thread is solid as well - people in the business are getting advice from people who aren't. A few things, however.

1. This is the Interweb. Make a post about the best way to cook chicken and someone will tell you how to do it better. Post about how you proposed to your wife and someone will write a list of all the things you did wrong. Describe your latest bowel movement and people will tell you about all the bad things you're eating. Welcome to the Interweb!

2. The advice from non-publishers isn't always bad. Like most publishers, fanboys have day jobs and might actually have valuable experience and insight.

3. Historically speaking, it's not as if RPG publishers are exactly business savvy. More than a few go out of business each year, some in a spectacular fashion. Joking about fanboys' advice at private parties is nice and all, but the irony of it takes the sting out of the supposed insult.

Seanchai

Quote from: GMSkarkaWhere did you get that figure from?    Do you have a link for this anywhere?

It's the standard figure that's quoted whenever a Traveller license is mentioned. Pretty sure LKW (GDW emeritus) has mentioned it before on the TML and some posts by LKW and others (MJD now of Avenger comes to mind) on COTI. I first saw it when the people trying to do Traveller miniatures (some years before Mega Miniatures) didn't calculate the cost of the license into their figuring and used that as the reason the project didn't go forward.

Looking for linkage.

...and now this has veered into a venue for personal mud slinging.

Oh well, it's good for the skin.

Quote from: JimBobOzI think you two guys should team up. We have here a game company, and its inner workings you don't know anything about, you haven't seen their account books or had a consultation with their boss. And yet you're still able to peer through that fog of business and discern that they are in Dire Trouble, and the causes of it - that huge five hundred buck barrier that stops gamers who still live in their parents' basement from being able to afford to write a d6 book! If they followed your advice, they'd be extremely successful; if they ignore your advice, they'll fail abysmally. Whatever you're doing as your day jobs, you should give it up, and team up to form a profitable game company. Such cuttingly insightful business sense would give you great success.

On the other hand you came up with all of this without knowing who I am, what I do for a living, or even if I actually HAVE seen the accounts and consulted with the boss. Granted, the latter is highly unlikely, but you still felt comfortable making that conclusion and presenting it as FACT. There must be something in your past experience that enables you to be so certain of that.

So damn right I can see through the fog of business. I may not know about all the details (nobody ever does), but I know what I need to in this case. Game systems are a dime a dozen, and most are broken as hell to begin with (with player expectations filling in the gaps). I think WEG rules are actually less broken than most, but the most valuable thing they possess is the TORG brand.

If I were WEG, I would release a brand new TORG (starting fresh, like the WoD 2.0), and a brand new TORG die (that damn D20 is a cherished component of the original TORG by many). I'd use Google Maps to create an online version of TORG Earth, and do whatever else I could on the internet to maintain a customer's continual interest. I'd scour Deviant Art and Concept Art for available images I could just license (which I believe is exactly what Anima: Beyond Fantasy did), instead of commissioning an artist to create a unique piece of work, which I can only hope will be done on time (BTW, how the hell DID a picture of Harlan Ellison end up on the cover of a TORG supplement?). And there are plenty of good RPG writers out there willing to work for, well, I'm told money, but given the realities of the industry I sometimes find that hard to believe

And while I'm NOT WEG, it certainly doesn't stop me from following this advice myself with a slightly less valuable brand.

Quote from: JimBobOzI look forward to seeing the Best RPG Ever, or even a Sorta Successful RPG, from the Chaosvoyager-Blue Devil (TM) collaboration!

Gee, thanks! You even put my name first. Glad to hear it, though I won't be calling it an RPG (nor a Story game nor any of the horribly abused public monikers). I also won't be collaborating with Blue Devil Games.

Then again, this could all be some kind of attempt to associate me with someone in an effort to discredit me. Gotta be careful there though, as you might just raise their status instead

Quote from: Casey777FWIW a Traveller license is $1000 but that doesn't seem to have stopped companies from getting them even now.

All it takes is time enough to save up the money.

I have to wonder why someone would pay $500-1000 paying for a license when stuff like the OGL are free. Is it personal preference for a ruleset better communicating your design? A desire not to be lost in the welter of d20-based products currently available? Something else? I'm genuinely curious.

Quote from: DrewI have to wonder why someone would pay $500-1000 paying for a license when stuff like the OGL are free. Is it personal preference for a ruleset better communicating your design? A desire not to be lost in the welter of d20-based products currently available? Something else? I'm genuinely curious.

Well, personally, I think D&D adapts poorly to doing anything but D&D, and I'm somewhat lazy when it comes to system design.  I enjoy toying about with basic mechanics and such, but a full system is a lot of work.

To answer the thread title : YEP!!

 Two or three words :
 GDW, TRAVELLER ... Virus.  (and the stupid assassination)

Oh and dearly departed FASA?  Your #1 game for awhile ? It wasn't smart to insult Roddenberry or tick him off back then - he was regaining his influence.


- Ed C.

Quote from: J ArcaneWell, personally, I think D&D adapts poorly to doing anything but D&D, and I'm somewhat lazy when it comes to system design.  I enjoy toying about with basic mechanics and such, but a full system is a lot of work.

I agree with your assesment of D&D, but looking at Iron Heroes, True20 or Mutants & Masterminds leads me to think there isn't much you can't pull off with Wizard's OGL. That's not to say I want to see all (or even many) publishers use it, just that from a business pov it looks like it reduces overheads in license fees or developing a system from scratch.

Quote from: DrewI agree with your assesment of D&D, but looking at Iron Heroes, True20 or Mutants & Masterminds leads me to think there isn't much you can't pull off with Wizard's OGL. That's not to say I want to see all (or even many) publishers use it, just that from a business pov it looks like it reduces overheads in license fees or developing a system from scratch.

The games you mention are heavily modified from the original sources, to the extent that, especially with M&M, very little remain (yet ironically still feels constrained by being forced into the D&D mechanics).

If I'm going to use a licensed system, it's going to be so I can have something I can implement with a minimum of modification, which means starting with a system I already like and feel is suited to my target setting.  

It's the same reason I abandoned FUDGE early on, because I felt like I was basically designing the whole system from scratch anyway, so it was effectively a waste of time.

Quote from: J ArcaneThe games you mention are heavily modified from the original sources, to the extent that, especially with M&M, very little remain (yet ironically still feels constrained by being forced into the D&D mechanics).

If I'm going to use a licensed system, it's going to be so I can have something I can implement with a minimum of modification, which means starting with a system I already like and feel is suited to my target setting.  

It's the same reason I abandoned FUDGE early on, because I felt like I was basically designing the whole system from scratch anyway, so it was effectively a waste of time.

Fair enough, although I can't say I ever felt M&M or True20 were either too removed or constraining. I'd much rather have a designer working with a system they felt comfortable with, anyway.

Quote from: KoltarTwo or three words :
 GDW, TRAVELLER ... Virus.  (and the stupid assassination)

Yep, TNE- worst rpg decision evar.  It was like the Aliens 3 of rpg's - everything I cared about in the previous editions was killed off.

Quote from: William G. GruffMy favorite game company did so many stupid things that it no longer exists. :deflated:

Can you be more specific?  That only limits it to over half of all game companies to ever exist in the last 30 years.

Quote from: Blue DevilI wouldn't have a problem if he had *MADE* a point.  All he did was make a hit and run insult (His MO).   Would help me to learn why I am wrong from someone from the inside. Instead he just wants to be insulting.

My point is quite simple:  You don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

Your ideas on the "mistakes" that WEG are making are ridiculous.  Eric has taken a defunct failed company and brought it back from the brink.  It's nowhere near the heights that it once occupied, but then again, the overall industry isn't as strong as it was, either.   He's managing to keep a company afloat in the current market, which is a laudable achievement.

You, however, seem to think that he should be giving away his only marketable brand for free, when, from a business standpoint, he's already under-charging for it.  $500 is nothing.  I make about 4 times that much per month, just on my PDF sales alone....and I'm a very small operation.

So, my point is that you don't know what you're talking about.  Your views are not realistic, or based in any actual knowledge of how the business operates.   It's nothing more than fanboy wishful thinking.

The fact that this assessment of you also happens to be insulting is a pleasant side-effect.

Quote from: mhensleyYep, TNE- worst rpg decision evar.  It was like the Aliens 3 of rpg's - everything I cared about in the previous editions was killed off.

I'm not a fan of TNE, but I don't think it was the worst rpg decision ever.  It was a gamble.  GDW was trying to turn what was increasingly becoming a niche game into a new breakout hit.  It was a calculated risk that failed.  Admittedly, they bet their own fanbase and lost some of it, but I can at least see the logic behind what they were trying to do.

And more to the point, they were making money on the TNE line.  People were buying it and playing it.  I'm not sure who, but they were moving units.  GDW's closure is often cited as evidence that TNE was a stinker, but the Desert Shield book they put out was probably their real downfall.

Quote from: GMSkarkaYou, however, seem to think that he should be giving away his only marketable brand for free, when, from a business standpoint, he's already under-charging for it.  $500 is nothing.  I make about 4 times that much per month, just on my PDF sales alone....and I'm a very small operation.

Bullshit.  If you would actually read posts instead of just slinging insults you would see I said "Maybe he should cut it in half".

I go into my FLGS and the same D6 books sit there not selling, there is little discussion about the system and even WEG's Forums are slow.

The fact of the matter is that the word that WEG is in face alive is not getting out, and this could in the end kill them.

$500 is nothing?  What about the many free systems out there (D20, for instance which you use) which costs little to nothing to use?  

D6 just came back after a long time out of the public eye.  Why would someone pay $500 to use D6 when they can use D20 for nothing? (and D20 is a system more gamers know about then D6

Quote from: GMSkarkaSo, my point is that you don't know what you're talking about.  Your views are not realistic, or based in any actual knowledge of how the business operates.   It's nothing more than fanboy wishful thinking.

The fact that this assessment of you also happens to be insulting is a pleasant side-effect.

You have no idea what my background in business is, you just sling insults because it makes you feel better about yourself.  Which is why you got your ass thrown off of rpg.net anyhow.

GMS, you are a game designer, you are a small fish in a small pond.  Get over yourself, your not as great as your ego tells you you are.