Quote from: pigames.netIndie, Small Press, Vanity ---- it's all the same to me.

Well it shouldn't be.  Vanity press material is something entirely different and, if you're going to publish anything outside of the arena of roleplaying, you're REALLY going to discover just what an albatross that label can be.  Best to stick with Small Press or Independant Small Press.

Quote from: pigames.netDebating the merits or classifications of each for 10 pages worth of posts is ludicrous and highly annoying...

Which is why I jumped to the last page, responded to you, and now am about to ... OOOH SHINEY!

I listened to the whole thing and found it a bit painful. Neither the host nor the guest are particularly good speakers. I think the host needs a little more time to "find his voice". Ron needs to learn how to start a sentence using a phrase other than "You know".

I've read a handful of Ron's posts over on the forge and quickly formed the opinion that the guy has way to high of an opinion of his importance to the gaming community.

The first bit about "brain damage" didn't make much sense to me, and seemed to be just taking shots at another game company, rather than any constructive insight into the hobby.

Some of the later bits actually sounded reasonable, and made me think he isn't such a bad guy.

Quote from: Kester PelagiusWell it shouldn't be.  Vanity press material is something entirely different and, if you're going to publish anything outside of the arena of roleplaying, you're REALLY going to discover just what an albatross that label can be.  Best to stick with Small Press or Independant Small Press.

Whether it should or shouldn't be is irrelevant. It just is. Look around. Let's leave it at that.

Quote from: pigames.netWhether it should or shouldn't be is irrelevant. It just is. Look around. Let's leave it at that.

Point taken.  But I would just like to say I definitely wouldn't classify Hinterwelt, Pig Games, or Better Mousetrap Games as vanity presses.  To suggest otherwise, I think, is to short shrift these small press endeavors and the herculean obstacles they have had to overcome.  Then again, as has been pointed out, they're not "indie" and, as you say, we should leave it at that.

Quote from: jrientsMost of the material for my games comes from so-called trash culture.  That stuff can feed into a very satisfying D&D game.

Same here, and for plenty more than D&D games

Quote from: HinterWeltI have been told, point blank, at GTS 5 or 6 years ago that HinterWelt is not Indie. Since then, I have happily referred to myself as small press.

I don't know the details of your production process, but if you match the criteria I linked, then something funky is/was going on. It's apparent that in some cases the percentage of owner-created content is a judgment call, as are issues of licensing, and there's a tendency of the "indie community" to basically defer to Ron. Which means the criteria aren't always as objective as made out.

One thing I didn't make clear in one of my earlier posts is that the identification of the term "indie" with the Forge also marginalizes non-Forge small press publishers within wider RPG discussion. I.e., because of Edwards & the Forge, when people hear "indie", they think of a particular design esthetic, so the enthusiasm and energy that gets drummed up in the name of independent publishing winds up being distributed unevenly based on quite different criteria.

Quote from: SettembriniCould you elaborate? I spent quite some time on that thing, and would love to know what creeped you out.

I thought he came over ok on the interview, especially compared to the Demo at the Stasi headquarters.

OK, this is the one and only thing I am going to address or comment on in this thread:

Settembrini, didn't you say once that you had another segment of that interview to prepare and post? If so, I'm really keen on seeing that.

Peace,
-Joel

Quote from: jdrakehYes, it does.

I've heard him damn D&D and Vampire for the better part of a decade. I've yet to hear him explain why these games are bad outside of the fact that they don't do things the way that he likes to do them (personally). This interview is a great example of what I'm talking about. His Fantasy Heartreaker essay is another.

That's sad really.

I think Vampire is OK and I do not care for D&D (and do not play it) but I do not damn D&D for it's success.  Games can be good and successful whether we personally like them or not.

Elitism like this is what hurts our hobby the most and is the thing this hobby needs to root out.

Quote from: jdrakehIn said essay (which I've been known to defend), Ron makes some valid points (e.g., that innovation itself isn't a compelling reason for a game to exist). That said, most of these points are buried under a steaming heap of "It sucks because I say so!". Most people who read it see only the steaming heap and that is what's unfortunate.

Yep, people see the piling heap of crap and the valid points get lost in the mix.

Quote from: jdrakehAnd, as he does in the interview, Ron alludes to the fact that most of the good bits in popular, mainstream, games are accidental. As if it is impossible that anybody other than Ron could have a good idea. It's this kind of attitude that puts people off of the Forge and much of the product that comes out of there. Which is ironic, because. . .

Lately Ron has taken it upon himself to divide the Forge into "Us" (people who kowtow entirely to Ron's will) and "Them" (people who dare question things that he says) camps. I think that he's calling them 1st Generation Contributors and 2nd Generation Contributors, but he recently made it very clear that the new ways aren't his way and, therefore, are wrong.

Someone needs to create a site that does what The Forge originally sought to do, create fun games self published and owned by the publishers.

I bet many people would be drawn away and Ron would become more and more irrelevant.

Quote from: jdrakehWhile I agree with some of what he said in the series of threads where this division was set up (specifically that people shouldn't publish games simply because they can), I cringed when I saw him draw that line in the sand. The Forge is clearly not about forward motion now (whether it ever has been is another topic entirely, but it clearly is not now).

From what I can tell The Forge seems to be collapsing into itself, imploding if you will.  The Forge, like Ron Edwards seems to become more and more irrelevant

Some of the piling on here (particularly from Blue Devil) is laughable. Regardless of what you think about Ron & the Forge, neither is irrelevent.

I also think that jdrakeh's interpretation of events over at the Forge (the "us/them" division) is quite a bit off the mark, though Ron's message is often filled with contradictions, leaving room for pretty much any interpretation.

Quote from: SettembriniYeah, I know.
But only if you take the action and adventure in it it at face value!

OK, I tried, but I just can't listen to the creep for longer than 5 mins.

So, all I can is say that all the points you made in this thread sound well taken indeed.

Quote from: Blue DevilSomeone needs to create a site that does what The Forge originally sought to do. . .

The Story Games Community is kind of like that, though they focus almost exclusively on Story Games. That said, they still discuss and apply multiple theories and ideas, something that is largely discouraged at The Forge now. Indeed, Story Games has come under some friendly fire for "dilluting" the substance of Forge theory by promoting the exploration of avenues and ideas that deviate from The Way (i.e., The Big Model). I suspect that such fire won't remain friendly for long.

I know (not merely suspect) that there are Forge members who intensely disagree with The Way, as laid out by Ron. These folks have their own ideas (some very good) which aren't being voiced because they lack the testicular fortitude to challenge Ron's manifesto in public. [Note: If any of you are reading this, you can take however you like.]

Having said that, some of these people are getting understandably digruntled and are starting to make some noise on the Forge forums. In the past, most such people have simply left game design in disgust for fear of being branded as a pariah by their peers, though that seems to be changing a bit. I think that, perhaps, a boiling point may be drawing near.

Which is great.

I await the day that such folks finally strike out on their own as it will lead to change -- something that, in my estimation, is sorely needed in the current "indie" RPG community. Things have been pretty stagnant since The Way was canonized as indisputable truth over there.

[Note: I should clarify that I don't think The Big Model is without its benefits, but to discard all other ideas in favor of one seems patently absurd.]

Quote from: Elliot WilenSome of the piling on here (particularly from Blue Devil) is laughable. Regardless of what you think about Ron & the Forge, neither is irrelevent.

You may think the pilling on is laughable but it really isn't.  Ron and The Forge Are irrelevant.

How many gamers outside of those that go on the internet to discuss role playing games (which  make up a small minority of gamers) have heard of the The Forge or Ron Edwards?

None of the gamers I know have heard of him and I know a bunch of gamers.

He is irrelevent, and his attacks on other games shows his jealousy towards games like D&D and Vampire that have done much better then his

Quote from: Elliot WilenI also think that jdrakeh's interpretation of events over at the Forge (the "us/them" division) is quite a bit off the mark, though Ron's message is often filled with contradictions, leaving room for pretty much any interpretation.

No, with his brain damaged comments and his attitude (which clearly shows through in the podcast) it is us and them.  He makes that perfectly clear

If they're so irrelevant, why does everyone insist on talking about them all the time.

For people that supposedly don't matter, they get an awful lot of attention.  

If you really feel the way you claim about them, why not just ignore them and go about talking about things that do matter?

Quote from: jdrakehHaving said that, some of these people are getting understandably digruntled and are starting to make some noise on the Forge forums. In the past, most such people have simply left game design in disgust for fear of being branded as a pariah by their peers, though that seems to be changing a bit. I think that, perhaps, a boiling point may be drawing near.

Which is great.

I await the day that such folks finally strike out on their own as it will lead to change -- something that, in my estimation, is sorely needed in the current "indie" RPG community. Things have been pretty stagnant since The Way was canonized as indisputable truth over there.

[Note: I should clarify that I don't think The Big Model is without its benefits, but to discard all other ideas in favor of one seems patently absurd.]

It clearly says something if your own base is so tired of your crap that they are starting to lash out.  Oh well, what ever happens happens

Quote from: J ArcaneFor people that supposedly don't matter, they get an awful lot of attention.

Attention =/= Relevance as YouTube continues to prove That said, I think dismissing the Forge as "irrelevant" is a mistake. On the other hand, it isn't  near as important as its founders like to pretend it is, either (that thread on RPGnet wherein Clinton, in all seriousness, claims that the Forge was the driving force behind games like HERO 5th Edition and D&D 3.0 had me in stitches).