QuoteSettembrini, didn't you say once that you had another segment of that interview to prepare and post? If so, I'm really keen on seeing that.

There is some technical hassle involved (the tape was lost, until I found it, and it was damaged where it ended up before being found), and it will take me five+ hours at home to cope with that.
That´s the reason why it hasn´t happened so far (when I´ve got five+ hours at home "free", I tend to do other stuff), along with very little feedback or discussion following the other parts. You are the first one to even ask for the remaining part!

I will, someday complete it, but it´s low priority. There is a bit on brain damage, but that is now covered in the Podcast, so the argument isn´t lost. On the tape, he´s taking the same approach, especiall underlining how awful and wrong it was of people to [paraphrase] "jump into a private discussion and linking it to the internet on forums and blogs".

But yes, it will be online one day this year.

Quote from: Blue DevilNo, with his brain damaged comments and his attitude (which clearly shows through in the podcast) it is us and them.  He makes that perfectly clear

No, you don't know what you're talking about. Whatever's in the podcast, jdrakeh was referring to discussion the Forge, and this post makes crystal clear that RE isn't talking about people "outside the Forge" when he refers to "them". It's an internal  division.

I have to say, I was actually shocked by that interview.

When he asked him about the brain damage comment, I expected him to deny it. Then, as he rambled on and on and on, I expected him to just try and spin and talk until the interviewer forgot the question and/or let it pass.

Which he could have done, but then he says "which doesn't address your question", dives right in, and actually confirms that he thinks folks who play Vampire are literally and really brain damaged (!!!!)

I am stunned.

The fucker really believes guys playing Vampire are brain damaged.

Any chance that I would ever be able to regard Ron Edwards as anything other than a weird, crazy oddity, has vanished.

He's now in the same league as Jack Thompson in my opinion.

Bananas. Totally Bananas.

Quote from: Elliot WilenNo, you don't know what you're talking about. Whatever's in the podcast, jdrakeh was referring to discussion the Forge, and this post makes crystal clear that RE isn't talking about people "outside the Forge" when he refers to "them". It's an internal  division.

Well, in fairness, if you don't agree with Ron on all fronts, he pretty much files you under 'mentally unstable' or 'hopelessly retarded' as evidenced by his numerous failed attempts to justify the notorious "brain damage" remark as some kind of objective classification supported by facts (it isn't, it's just Ron being bitter). That said, yes, I was specifically referring to the internal divide in my post.

Quote from: RPGObjects_chuckI have to say, I was actually shocked by that interview.

When he asked him about the brain damage comment, I expected him to deny it. Then, as he rambled on and on and on, I expected him to just try and spin and talk until the interviewer forgot the question and/or let it pass.

Which he could have done, but then he says "which doesn't address your question", dives right in, and actually confirms that he thinks folks who play Vampire are literally and really brain damaged (!!!!)

I am stunned.

The fucker really believes guys playing Vampire are brain damaged.

Any chance that I would ever be able to regard Ron Edwards as anything other than a weird, crazy oddity, has vanished.

He's now in the same league as Jack Thompson in my opinion.

Bananas. Totally Bananas.

And like Jack Thompson, he'd do far less damage to the gaming community at large if people would learn just ignore him until he goes away.  

Feeding loons like that the attention they crave serves no purpose whatsoever.

Okay, I'm not usually the RE defender but I'll at least offer the nuanced view. (Though note, I'm not all the way through the podcast, instead I'm watching a neato Nova documentary on the stone age peopling of the Americas. But I read all the old crap about BD back when it happened.)

Edwards doesn't say that playing Vampire damages your brain. He says that playing Vampire damages your brain if you think you're "telling a story" when you play it.

Now, it's nonsense, first because he's adding "brain damage" to the long list of terms that he's decided he can use for shock effect, then unilaterally redefine to prove that he was right all along.

Second, the claim interacts in a funny way with the politics of how "Narrativism" eventually got defined, namely that if your game group thrives on characters making big decisions about life and stuff, then you're a bunch of story-craving Narrativists even if you don't think of yourselves that way. Ergo, maybe your brain was damaged after all.

But actually, although RE shows little appreciation or understanding of the socialization that transforms old fogey grognard play into engrossing exploration of characters and morals & shit...he's not really aiming at Settembrini or me or any of our other resident cavemen. He's talking about the generation of the 90's, the kids who started with D&D 2e or Vampire or Shadowrun, who really did think in terms of "telling stories" and had barely any concept of Traveller or original D&D, let alone wargaming.

It's also these people who really latch onto his theories. (I offer up as Exhibit A the René dude from the comments on the podcast, who recently wandered onto my LJ as "elmago79" to defend Forge jargon by saying it's okay to critique it as long as you don't disagree with it.) For them, he's basically right...once you perform the necessary linguistic transformations and backtracking that he refuses to do. (I.e., just admit you were using a metaphor for "conditioning", dude.) For them, because they can't think outside of spoonfed Hollywood-style "story"--and frankly why should they, they're not wargamers or amateur historians of unreal worlds, they really do want to "tell a story"--Narrativism really is the answer. The problem is that they then project their experiences and their delight with their newfound paradigm onto everyone else. Basically saying that if you aren't doing things the Forge way, with explicitly enunciated themes and mechanically-empowered players, you must still be in the benighted state they just emerged from.

I don´t see any defense there, Elliot. You just put it more nicely.

That brain damage was about Vampire has been established from the start, and that Vampire bashing is not pretty original either. Pundit was more on target a year earlier, and we all surely had our own version of Vampire bashing at our local clubs and mags in the late nineties.

The only thing original about it is his literal understanding (and insistance) of brain damage, and that surely qualifies him as ...

God bless Ron Edwards.

Here I thought I was having fun, but now I see it's all a facade for my ignorance and self-loathing. Now I can go start the medication and try to find natural supports in my life to compensate for my disability. I just hope it's not too late to discover a path to normalcy.

Brain injury: It's not just for motorcycle accidents anymore!

Quote from: stu2000Brain injury: It's not just for motorcycle accidents anymore!

Yes, it is also for metal baseball bats...

...and uh... your hobbies. I wonder if it's possible to damage my brain with model trains. I already know I can playing football.

Model trains, I dunno, but plastic and vinyl models give you a chance to fuck yourself up on all kinds of solvents.

Quote from: Elliot WilenModel trains, I dunno, but plastic and vinyl models give you a chance to fuck yourself up on all kinds of solvents.

I thought that was part of the appeal.

Quote from: Blue DevilSomeone needs to create a site that does what The Forge originally sought to do, create fun games self published and owned by the publishers.

I thought on this for a few hours and realized that I have unfairly criticized others for not taking any action, while I myself have stood largely still (aside from vocal contributions to threads like this one which, honestly, don't amount to much).

Here are my amends. I've finally managed to nail down a decent, ad-free, forum host and upgraded my own site with a snazzy CSS frontend (here).

While I'm certain that it won't be The Next Big Thing, all game theorists and game designers are welcome in the spirit of open discussion. I'll host files on the main site and designer-specific forums by request. Suggestions for improvement by registered posters are, of course, welcome.

The rules (see "Welcome" threads in each forum) are loose and sensible. If you act like a human being, you'll be spared banning. If you act like a sociopath, you'll be treated like one.

If you like to design/write games (even if they're just for you and your play group), by all means, drop by

Quote from: J ArcaneIf they're so irrelevant, why does everyone insist on talking about them all the time.

For people that supposedly don't matter, they get an awful lot of attention.  

If you really feel the way you claim about them, why not just ignore them and go about talking about things that do matter?

Ok I will turn it around:   How is Ron Edwards relevant then?

Quote from: Blue DevilOk I will turn it around:   How is Ron Edwards relevant then?

He's not, not to me anyway.  Which is why by and large I'm happy just not bothering to talk about him, and generally going about my daily life as if he didn't exist.

Because THAT is what it means for something to be irrelevant.  

All threads like this do is validate his existence.  You folks claim to think he's a nutter, that he's irrelevant, etc. etc., yet this site gives an inordinate amoutn of attention to it nonetheless.  

Simply by treating him and his attitude as a "big issue", you've already proven that he IS relevant, to you.  

Nobody has big massive threads on a constant basis about how loony Hybrid is, or starts whole new web forums with mission statments and everything that are all about being anti-Hybrid.  You find Hybrid once, you boggle at it and laugh, and then you move on with your life, with only the occasional mention in conversation occasionally in the years henceforth.  that's how you treat a crazy person.

What you do not do, is give him constant attention above and beyond what he manags to accomplish by himself.

Quote from: jdrakehI thought on this for a few hours and realized that I have unfairly criticized others for not taking any action, while I myself have stood largely still (aside from vocal contributions to threads like this one which, honestly, don't amount to much).

Here are my amends. I've finally managed to nail down a decent, ad-free, forum host and upgraded my own site with a snazzy CSS frontend (here).

Nice site.  Hopefully it will attract the people who want to discuss indie game design/marketing/etc without The Forge BS

Quote from: jdrakehWhile I'm certain that it won't be The Next Big Thing, all game theorists and game designers are welcome in the spirit of open discussion. I'll host files on the main site and designer-specific forums by request. Suggestions for improvement by registered posters are, of course, welcome.

The rules (see "Welcome" threads in each forum) are loose and sensible. If you act like a human being, you'll be spared banning. If you act like a sociopath, you'll be treated like one.

If you like to design/write games (even if they're just for you and your play group), by all means, drop by

Thanks I will.

As for being the next big thing who knows?  It could very well happen.  And it gives people who want to talk game design another place to go if they have grown tired of the crap on The Forge.