Hi all,

The other day I was waiting for a meeting with a client, and I was stuck for half an hour, doing nothing. So I started to think about a S&W game I would like to run some day. And then I considered how to explain certain 'rules realities' in terms of 'setting realities.' The first thing that crossed my mind was level caps for demihumans, right after I decided that I would have no fucking hobbits in my setting. Level caps is a topic that has brought much pain and gnashing of teeth, so what to do about it?

I came up with this. It's based on the idea of every race fulfilling the role of some body component, with the whole world being a huge organism.

Dwarves are the bones of the world. They are static, strong, and tied to the bones of the world, their beloved mountains in a way that we humans cannot comprehend. For a dwarf, to go out their undermountain realms is to sever the connection with the very soul of their race. Thus, a wandering dwarf remains a stunted version of himself, never able to grow to the full heights of power and wisdom that the purer dwarves may reach, as it happens with a bone separated from the body. This is so because the Dwarves work to make strong foundations for the world, so it can be stable and resist the constant onslaught of Chaos. Dwarves keep the mountains healthy and shape continents, down under the mountains, their secret project that no one else in the world knows about. Plainly said: a Dwarf PC has a level cap because he's away from his natural environment. Dwarve NPCs have no caps because they are connected to the very Earth, but they cannot innovate, they cannot progress once they go out thir kingdoms.

Elves are the breath of the world. They cannot create permanent settings, they cannot form permanent societies. They wander following the moon and the winds, tending to the forests and the surface of the world, stability an anathema to them. When an elf ties to another people and becomes a PC, he kind of withers, and becomes more static. Actually, elves are inmortal as long as they don't become PCs, this is, they don't bond with anyone outside their tribes, and they don't settle in the same place for more than, don't know, maybe a moon cycle or whatever.

Humans are the blood of the world. They go everywhere, move everywhere, and with time, can be anything. They're constant enough to create societies and durable things (unlike the Elves), but not as inmutable as Dwarves. Theirs is a path of constant growth, hence they don't have level caps.

And dragons are the soul and the mind of the world. Creatures not born from the flesh (no dragon eggs or shit like that) but from pure magic and the cosmos' will. If they were hunte to extinction, something horrible would happen... (anyone remembers an old CRPG by the name of Drakkhen? )

Anyway, this is it. What do you think?

That's a great rationalization of level caps but I'd rather just dump them.

Quote from: Nicephorus;367332That's a great rationalization of level caps but I'd rather just dump them.

Same here, but it's a great way to rationalize them and a very flavorful way to look at the races, even if you were to end up dumping the level limits yourself. If it works for you I can say if I were your player I would totally buy into the ideas you have presented. Good job.

Quote from: Imperator;367320Anyway, this is it. What do you think?

I think this is pure awesome.

You echo my own ideas for the origins and purpose of demi-humans in the Material Plane. I guess it shouldn't be surprising, considering we share an admiration for Glorantha and Greg Stafford's work, if I'm not mistaken.

Quote from: Sigmund;367333Same here, but it's a great way to rationalize them and a very flavorful way to look at the races, even if you were to end up dumping the level limits yourself. If it works for you I can say if I were your player I would totally buy into the ideas you have presented. Good job.

Actually, level caps are partially dumped... for NPCs. Yes, is no good for you as a player, but at least if you retire your PC you may find it some time later as a powerful high level hero.

For this approach to work, I think that the DM must put a heavy emphasis on how special the demihumans special abilities are. When you're in the dungeon, the dwarven PC should be fucking boss there. You should be ready to give him all kinds of information about the construction, any clue you can get from it, and make it matter. After all, a dwarf is a warrior with a level cap and some special skills. Let them shine. Same goes for an elve, because, let's admit it, in OD&D an elf fucking sucks. You'll get to be a crappy mage and a crappy warrior, at least when compared with a human. You don't have a bonus to your scores, so fuck you on that too. Yeah, you may wear a bit of armor. Big fucking deal.

If you don't do this, there are few reasons to play demihumans in OD&D, IMO. On the long run, you suck. On the short term, your special racial skills are nice, but nothing game - changing.

Quote from: Benoist;367360I think this is pure awesome.

You echo my own ideas for the origins and purpose of demi-humans in the Material Plane. I guess it shouldn't be surprising, considering we share an admiration for Glorantha and Greg Stafford's work, if I'm not mistaken.

Many thanks

And yes, I'm a big Glorantha / Mr. Stafford fan. By far my most favourite game designer.

Quote from: Imperator;367364Actually, level caps are partially dumped... for NPCs. Yes, is no good for you as a player, but at least if you retire your PC you may find it some time later as a powerful high level hero.

For this approach to work, I think that the DM must put a heavy emphasis on how special the demihumans special abilities are. When you're in the dungeon, the dwarven PC should be fucking boss there. You should be ready to give him all kinds of information about the construction, any clue you can get from it, and make it matter. After all, a dwarf is a warrior with a level cap and some special skills. Let them shine. Same goes for an elve, because, let's admit it, in OD&D an elf fucking sucks. You'll get to be a crappy mage and a crappy warrior, at least when compared with a human. You don't have a bonus to your scores, so fuck you on that too. Yeah, you may wear a bit of armor. Big fucking deal.

If you don't do this, there are few reasons to play demihumans in OD&D, IMO. On the long run, you suck. On the short term, your special racial skills are nice, but nothing game - changing.

I'm totally with ya. I almost always play humans, but when I don't dwarves are my next fav so I'm very down with making them awesome underground. Have you ever read or played in the Birthright campaign? The dwarves in BR are described as having grey skin that is tough, coarse black hair, and the ability to eat, and survive by eating, stone itself. They get 2 points of damage reduction just from the toughness of their skin. It completely rocks. I'm definitely a fan of where you're going with the racial issues in your game.

I pretty much always ditched them. Few gamers I knew used them and even then it it was unlikely we'd cap out in a given campaign. (Mind you I've played in campaigns into middle double digits for a multi-classed Elf..so it was possible. Just not common.)

Good flavorful stuff. What about monster races -- trolls and orcs and giants and such. Any idea about them? Perhaps they're not of the world at all but rather a foreign cancer, which is why the various good-guy races are obligated to fight them...

WRT level limits in D&D, I always just used them and it never even really occurred to me not to. When my dwarf fighter hit 8th level and couldn't advance any more I accepted that he wasn't able to advance anymore and I could either keep running him and have him gradually become more of a supporting character or I could start a new character. I chose both -- I started a new character as my primary PC but I kept my old dwarf around as a quasi-NPC and every once in a while I'd bring him out of retirement for a high-level one-off (where he depended on magic items to make up for the fact that he didn't have as good hp or THAC0 as the higher-level (~11-12th) human characters).

Quote from: T. Foster;367510What about monster races -- trolls and orcs and giants and such.

Orcs are the hangnails of the world.

I'll let you guys figure out who's the fromunda.

Quote from: Imperator;367320I decided that I would have no fucking hobbits in my setting.

You're a bad, bad man.

But the concepts are excellent.

Quote from: Imperator;367320The first thing that crossed my mind was level caps for demihumans, right after I decided that I would have no fucking hobbits in my setting.

So the gentleman must ask: Whatever does one fuck instead?

I did a similar re-write of demi-humans myself some months back.  Dwarves were a sort of proto-human, an "old race", like very stout Neanderthals.  Elves were antithetically magical, inhumanly weird and cruel, and unnervingly prone to screwing any human they take a fancy to.  They were also strictly NPCs.  The progeny of human-elf couplings were collectively referred to as "halflings", unpredictable in appearance and morphology, and essentially comprising all of the remaining demi-humans: half-elves, half-orcs, gnomes, and halflings.

All I have to do is put the idea into play now.

!i!

I posted this on another site, and will cut and paste it here. It's for classic Rules Cyclopedia style D&D.

I call it: Level Limits: My Bulls**t Rationalization

Okay. Back in the long long ago of whatever campaign world you prefer. Back when there were only a few Immortals, the Creator Gods of the world. None of those later Deity-Come-Lately types around.

They had made the cats and rats and elephants and unicorns and all that. There was a lot of wild magic running around that they were still trying to tame. At some point they thought, "Hey, these animals are nice and all, but let's make some that are intelligent like us. Then they can make technologies, and build civilizations. It'll be great! They'll be, like, the Über-race that will bring order to the world!"

Über-Race- Beta Testing: These were the goblinoid races, basically. The orcs and ogres and goblins and stuff. The gods had never created an intelligent race before, so they worked with what they knew, and basically got Animals-Plus. They were reasonably bright, and could use tools and weapons, but never got past their own intrinsic savagery. They could not become more than what they were, basically.

Über-Race 1.0: At this point the gods got together and decided to get serious. Before this they had been pretty disorganized, and were all making different things. They decided to sit down and work out what they were doing first. So they made the Halflings. Yep, the Halflings came first. They weren't called the Halflings, of course. I believe in Mystara they called themselves the Hin. It was a pretty good success, at least in the short run. (No pun intended.)
They were given a general Lawful temperament, and most of the savage instincts of their animal forebears had been stripped out. They still had a strong connection to the land. They also had natural ability to learn and use weapons. And what's more, they had the ability to self-improve! This was the amazing part! They could go up in level! Pretty innovative. They could only go up to 8th level, which sounds sad now, but at the time it was a new and amazing thing!
They did okay. The problem arose over time. They weren't as adventurous as was hoped. Now and then, one would go out and explore, but this was strongly discouraged. Their natural affinity for the land made them stake out a territory and stick with it. They didn't spread across the world like the gods had hoped. And the few adventurers that went out often didn't make it back. The Beta Test races could be pretty nasty.

Über-Race 2.0: The next race was taller and more hirsute. The gods decided to make them more physically imposing. Also the leveling up trick that they thought was so cool was improved by 50%! The new guys, the Dwarves, could go up to 12th level! Astounding!
It could be argued that the Dwarves were an improvement. They were industrious, and creative. They had a longer lifespan. They had natural fighting ability. But, unfortunately they had a tendency to be rather hidebound. Still, the gods liked them, and things stayed pretty much the same for a long time.

Über-Race 3.0: Around this time, the gods had hammered most of the wild magic of the world into a more manageable form. And they thought of a cool idea. Spells! Focusing the magic into utilitarian forms, like attack, defense, and other useful stuff. Unfortunately, the first races weren't built with the capability for magic. So, the gods decided to create something really cool. The Elves! Even taller than the Dwarves. (Bigger is better!) They lived for a really long time. They had the same natural combat abilities as the Halflings and Dwarves. They had a more Chaotic nature, to encourage them to spread through the world. And, they could do magic! Pretty much any Elf could cast simple spells, and the ones who improved themselves could rise to higher levels of spell-casting power!, some of them even reaching the vaunted Fifth Level of arcane spell power! Like, wow! They could only reach 10th level, but they were Hella Levels! Fighting and Combat! Woo!

This worked for a long time. The different races stuck to their areas. The Halflings stayed in their pastoral homes. The Dwarves went to the mountains, and the Elves to the deep forests. Contact between them was minimal. The gods pretty much thought the latest version was the best one. The downside was the Elves Chaotic tendencies. Instead of causing them to spread, it was a much more passive Chaos. Mixed with their long lifespan, they fell into a pattern of letting things happen, and putting things off. They lived off the land well, and didn't feel they needed any more.

Über-Race 4.0: One day, one of the gods had an idea. It was pretty Zen.
"I have an idea for a new Über-race! I know how to make them better!"
"Okay, how?"
"By making them worse!"
"What?"
"Yeah, we can make them great by making them suck!"
"... are you high?"
"A little bit, yeah."

Basically, this new race would have to work for everything. Even the natural combat abilities would be removed. If they wanted to learn weapons, they had to decide to. They could learn magic, but it wouldn't be intrinsic to them as a race. Just possible. They would have the shorted lifespan. Maybe a hundred years, and that's if they were damn lucky!

It worked. Really really well. Most of the race stayed home and learned mundane professions. But some went out and achieved. The first indication of success was that they were blowing past the other races, level-wise. There didn't seem to be any limit! They started pioneering new combat techniques and teaching them to their demihuman friends, thus allowing them to become better fighters after hitting their maximum levels.
The next indication was when human magic-users actually started creating their own spells, and spell levels.
Next, the humans created their own discipline.

"Check out what our humans have done! I mean, all the other races have had members who stole and did sneaky stuff, but these humans have turned it into an art form! They've learned to gain levels for sneaking around, stealing, getting into places where they don't belong, and even attacking others unfairly from behind!"
"Um, good for them?"

But the clincher was when the humans started tapping into the divine. The other races had priests and prophets and such, but this was generally initiated by the gods. They would appear in a favorite person's dream or send omens or whatnot. But the humans could access this divine source themselves. At first this mostly helped them turn undead, but the gods immediately saw the potential of this, and began creating divine spells, similar to the magic ones already existing.

Shamans and wokani of other races are usually expressions of a small amount of human blood, but sometimes it's just copying a technique a human came up with.

Quote from: Sigmund;367504I'm totally with ya. I almost always play humans, but when I don't dwarves are my next fav so I'm very down with making them awesome underground. Have you ever read or played in the Birthright campaign? The dwarves in BR are described as having grey skin that is tough, coarse black hair, and the ability to eat, and survive by eating, stone itself. They get 2 points of damage reduction just from the toughness of their skin. It completely rocks. I'm definitely a fan of where you're going with the racial issues in your game.

No, I'm not familiar with Birthright, but it sounds cool.

I didn't want to make demihumans as alien as in Glorantha, for example, but I wanted to avoid them to be humans with pointy ears.

Quote from: T. Foster;367510Good flavorful stuff. What about monster races -- trolls and orcs and giants and such. Any idea about them? Perhaps they're not of the world at all but rather a foreign cancer, which is why the various good-guy races are obligated to fight them...

That was my first idea, make them like a cancer or whatnot. I feel that thematically is also a good idea. They're like a cell gone awry. But these days I'm not so sure, and I'd rather not overdo the "they came from out of this world" topic.

Quote from: Ian Absentia;367533So the gentleman must ask: Whatever does one fuck instead?

Regular sized women (or men), instead of creeping midgets.

QuoteI did a similar re-write of demi-humans myself some months back.  Dwarves were a sort of proto-human, an "old race", like very stout Neanderthals.  Elves were antithetically magical, inhumanly weird and cruel, and unnervingly prone to screwing any human they take a fancy to.  They were also strictly NPCs.  The progeny of human-elf couplings were collectively referred to as "halflings", unpredictable in appearance and morphology, and essentially comprising all of the remaining demi-humans: half-elves, half-orcs, gnomes, and halflings.

All I have to do is put the idea into play now.

By all means

Quote from: Imperator;367320I came up with this. It's based on the idea of every race fulfilling the role of some body component, with the whole world being a huge organism.

I had a similar idea - humans are associated with cities, dwarves with mountains and elves with forests, and thus humans can grow quickly and without limit whereas dwarves and elves are relatively unchanging.

Although now that I think about it that should mean that dwarves gradually lose levels.

never mind, wrong thread!