Say you're running a group of amoral PC's-in my particular case at the moment it's a Star Wars group, so if that helps with your replies cool, if not no worries-who aren't heroes. They're anti-heroes, or worse.

So how do you punish "good deeds"? Or do you? What are some of the consequences an amoral character can expect to face when doing "good" deeds?

Quote from: Serious PaulSo how do you punish "good deeds"? Or do you? What are some of the consequences an amoral character can expect to face when doing "good" deeds?

You keep putting them in situations that tempt them to do good deeds until they come to the realization that they aren't actually as amoral as they think they are.

Amoral doesn't mean immoral, so that's a big distinction right there.

My latest game (in dev hell even as we speak) features amoral characters as protagonists and antagonists. The words "hero" and "villain" don't even appear in the book* and it's a de facto superhero game. In terms of game mechanics, the characters are amoral. Unlike, say, Vampire  or Dungeons & Dragons, there is no morality or "wages of sin" implied by the game mechanics. It's all about player choice.

That said, I don't think you need to worry about proving them as good or bad guys. What you should do is put them in situations where there are consequences for both action and inaction. In other words, not making a choice is still a choice. I like the "road to hell is paved with good intentions" route, where the players make a conscious effort to do good deeds but the aftermath of those good deeds puts them and others in even more danger.

As for bad guys doing good, this is all over genre fiction. Han Solo is a braggart, a gambler and a smuggler at best and probably a thief and a murderer at worst ("...from a certain point of view..." the man with the beard said). But for all his bad qualities, he ends up saving Leia from the Death Star, saving Luke from Darth Vader and basically becoming one of the Rebellion's most famous and courageous generals. All in the pursuit of the ducats.

Most hardboiled detective types are the same way - they do something out of fear or desire and its repercussions have long-reaching effects (i.e. Vachss' anti-hero Burke uses the tools of his trade - scams, larceny, violence - to do good in the world, even if it's just to save one kid from being harmed by a predator and even if his intentions are not exactly altruistic...in fact, most of the time he ends up sacrificing something to get the job done because it becomes personal).

* I lie! The imprint TROIKA has a section called "The Hero City" which is about Moscow.

Quote from: Serious PaulSo how do you punish "good deeds"? Or do you? What are some of the consequences an amoral character can expect to face when doing "good" deeds?

I don't think you really need to go very far out of your way to "punish" good deeds ... in much the same way you don't need to go far out of your way to punish a character for jumping into a wheat combine.  Just let nature take its course.

After all, which is the famous saying?  "Good deeds are rewarded with cake and puppies"?  Or "No good deed goes unpunished"?

You're in Star Wars, I'm going to assume that you've got the Empire.  The Empire has a vested interest in things running in an orderly fashion.  They have guys in white armor whose job is to remove elements that disturb the orderly workings of the Empire.  Just set up a situation where "orderly" is at odds with basic human decency (e.g. where the bureaucracy is insisting upon something practical but horrific, like forced separation of families in order to ensure that the children get a decent education (elsewhere)).

If the characters let the kids get shipped off on a cramped shuttle, never to see their parents again, then they're hard-core anti-heroes.  If they assault the shuttle then they're 110% guaranteed to have storm-troopers wanting to kick their ass from here back to Tatooine.  Either way, I think you're good to go ... unless I've misunderstood the question.

One way to punish "good" deeds is to have the word get out, people treat them as heroes, expect them to keep doing good, and besiege them with requests for help.

Quote from: Elliot WilenOne way to punish "good" deeds is to have the word get out, people treat them as heroes, expect them to keep doing good, and besiege them with requests for help.

Quite. If enough supplicants came knocking then it might attract the attention of the local Hutts, who would be very interested in a group whose pursuits are seemingly at odds with their own.

They may even be required to perform a "service" or three, just to prove whose side they're really on. Of course, once you get involved with gangsters there's usually only one way out...

cf. Han Solo

Each in game action, for good or for evil, should have logical consequences. Don't worry about punishment, worry about realistic consistency. Everything else will flow from that.

Quote from: James McMurrayEach in game action, for good or for evil, should have logical consequences. Don't worry about punishment, worry about realistic consistency. Everything else will flow from that.

That's my approach as well. Why would an amoral adventurer suffer from worse consequences for helping others than an altruistic do-gooder, unless of course the game system involves some sort of prescriptive personality mechanics?

Quote from: TonyLBAfter all, which is the famous saying?  "Good deeds are rewarded with cake and puppies"?  Or "No good deed goes unpunished"?

To be fair, the latter is a bitter twist on the saying, "No good deed goes unrewarded." [/nitpick]

Still, I strongly agree that the best way to cause both trouble and joy for the players is to follow the natural course of events.

I'm still baffled by the apparent perceived need to punish good deeds... amoral, immoral or just stupid character not withstanding.

Then again, I don't necessarily see the need to punish bad deeds. At best I use the 'clockwork universe' mentality: If no one knows you did the deed but you, then nothing happens either way. If people know you did the deed, and like it (good or bad) then you get feted. If people know you did the deed and don't like it, they react accordingly.  Even if I accepted some sort of universal Karma, the 'gods' reward good behavior...

Quote from: SpikeI'm still baffled by the apparent perceived need to punish good deeds...

Since no one is advocating it, so I'm pretty puzzled too...Mostly.

Quote from: Serious PaulSo how do you punish "good deeds"?

Well, that is suspiciously like advocating, or at least supportive of the concept.

Which is why I followed it with:

QuoteOr do you?

Not to nit pick too much more than we already have.

Well, what do you do, SP? Clockwork universe, or do you deliberately try to put the PCs in situations that challenge the players' image of them? Or something else?

Something's going on there with the word "punish". Otherwise I'd say, if amoral characters do good deeds, then they should get rewards, gratitude, friends, allies.

And what does it matter if the PCs are amoral or "good"? Do you want it to factor into the consequences of their deeds? Is it a matter of the characters' (or the players') interpretation of the consequences, whether they're punishment or reward?

Quote from: Elliot WilenWell, what do you do, SP?

I try to keep the flow of the game, and events as realistic as possible-like in real life things are often interconnected, and intertwined. Sometimes the tangible results of what they do isn't always apparent, and of course at other times it should readily be apparent. (Say after a firefight, when the police are closing in, or emergency services are trying to get into the area.)

The problem I am having is basically this: Star Wars is a game set up around the idea of a "Hero". The players and I are not playing a heroic game at all: they are murderers, thieves, and much worse. The goal in the game is not for them to redeem themselves or save people, they will be paid to kill, rape and torture.

So certain aspects of the system which are set up to reward heroic actions, and punish villainous actions needs to be reworked. (For instance they don't care about dark side points, as they've all but asked to be Sith.) So what I am looking to do is figure out how to dole out XP, and other awards when the PC's aren't heroes.

I'm not looking to enforce any of my own personal morality (Which is pretty nonexistent anyways) on my players, or force the to adhere to some sort of linear adventure format, or other such trite nonsense. What I want is to figure out how to make an amoral campiagn fun for them.

One major obstacle is that you don't award XP for the same things-yes some of it is obviously the same, but some of it differs. Another is in how we should view dark side points. (Since they've already murdered do they get points for a body count? Or do they have to be really clever in how they get there?) Destinies are a bit easier, but so on and so forth.

I know a lot of you are stuck on punish, but push past that one word. It's not meant to be that serious, or used in the context some of you are jumping to conclusions and assuming it must mean. For which I take responsibility-it was poor wording on my part, and I realize that now.

I opened this thread to drive conversation, which I think it's doing, not to berate anyone s gaming experience. I purposefully left it broad, as I thought some people would like to come at from different systems.