Quote from: RPGPundit;409047And this is important because combat doesn't work in that way, in those kinds of "phases" like you are thinking about. In your earlier posts you were very clearly suggesting that one dodge roll affects everything for the round, now its for the "aciton phase" you just invented.

No. I didn't.  Go and reread my first post, because you clearly didn't the first time.

Quote from: RPGPundit;409047If dodge worked the way you suggested, the concept of "multiple dodge" from N&S would be meaningless.

You have yet to show anywhere in RIFTS or in any other system (aside from N&S, where clearly the guy was using a Multiple Dodge, which is a SPECIAL KIND OF DODGE FROM N&S, not the standard dodge you use in all palladium games) where a single dodge roll is shown to apply to more than one attack.

The heading in N&SS clearly states that it is defining standard DODGE.  Multiple dodge is defined separately as a subset of dodge which also includes attacks from behind.  This is pretty clear if you had read the section in question.  Also very cute of you to say that N&SS is irrelevant when the Rifts book says on page 34 that it's using N&SS's combat system, and  also when all the games use the same combat system and direct the readers to N&SS for the full rules.

Read the combat examples in the original Rifts as well as the original Conversion Book.  They fully match the phase idea I outlined in my first and second post.

And I wash the hands of the matter.

Quote from: Gabriel2;409057No. I didn't.  Go and reread my first post, because you clearly didn't the first time.

Looking back, I realize that was "Everloss" who said it. You jumped in somewhere later continuing Everloss' argument, so I had to assume you were proposing that his erroneous description of combat was right.

QuoteThe heading in N&SS clearly states that it is defining standard DODGE.  Multiple dodge is defined separately as a subset of dodge which also includes attacks from behind.  This is pretty clear if you had read the section in question.  Also very cute of you to say that N&SS is irrelevant when the Rifts book says on page 34 that it's using N&SS's combat system, and  also when all the games use the same combat system and direct the readers to N&SS for the full rules.

So if dodging worked the way you described, exactly what would be the point or advantage of having "multiple dodge"?

I didn't say N&S is irrelevant, I said that "Multiple Dodge" is a special mechanic/maneuver which is different from the regular Dodge.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;409170So if dodging worked the way you described, exactly what would be the point or advantage of having "multiple dodge"?

RPGPundit

From N&SS:

"Unlike the Parry, a Dodge roll is good against multiple attacks."

-snip-

"Multiple Dodge is the ability to Dodge all incoming attacks, no matter where they're coming from. In other words, it's effective even against rear attacks."


Some of the implications of the Ninjas dodge are apparent in the 1990 Rifts book, but it doesn't explain it very clearly one way or the other.  I have seen plenty of questions about combat at the Palladium forum answered with "see Ninjas & Superspies".  It looks to me like Gabriel2 is right, and suddenly Rifts makes a lot more sense. Even with a quick glance at R:UE, I didn't see anything that specifies that a dodge is only good versus one attack, but only that it "always takes up one attack/action per melee round"

A full "round" (as per D&D), where the characters get a full set of attacks/actions is known as "a melee" in Kevin's universe, IIRC, and a "melee round" in this case would be a single attack/action initiative countdown.

Except that I just noticed that "melee" and "melee round" have the same definition in the 1990 Rifts. Well, shit... This is why terms like "action phase" get introduced into these conversations.  The rules read as if the concept is present, and make more sense if the concept is used, but the idea is camouflaged with various other preexisting terms in the RAW, like "action", "attack", and "round"

So, for a full "count" of actions (everybody's second actions, for example, taken in initiative order), a dodging character will use his entire attack/action opportunity for that action count of the "melee" dodging all attacks.  If he's already taken his action on an earlier initiative count, the dodges will use up his next opportunity, but only at a rate of one action per "count".  So, he can only run out of actions one "count" early by the time the "melee" is over.  It's like declaring full defense posture, and setting a static defense rating with a d20 roll, then skipping your "attack/action" next time your initiative gets called.

Regardless, in more than two decades of running Palladium games, playing in palladium games, and watching others doing the same, I have NEVER seen combat run that way.
I have always seen it run as "you use one attack for every dodge you roll".

If it is a house rule, it is quite possibly the most successful house rule in the history of RPGs, because I've only ever seen anyone run it that way.

RPGPundit

Nothing to add to the original topic, or the latest derail, but...

Quote from: Cranewings;407696The Rift's conversion book was probably written in one sitting and went to print without being edited.

Interestingly, Zenjorki powers from N&S has their Chi cost quadrupled, even though they don't cost anything to use.

Wondering if Siembieda might have been referencing 1st edition Ninjas & Superspies, rather than the Revised edition?

The 1st ed. apparently had very different rules. (I haven't seen it, but the original is the one where Dedicated martial artist had 3 forms and Worldly had 2...this become 2 and 1 in Revised, apart from a couple of typos here and there e.g. the villain generator in the back).

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;409363Nothing to add to the original topic, or the latest derail, but...



Wondering if Siembieda might have been referencing 1st edition Ninjas & Superspies, rather than the Revised edition?

The 1st ed. apparently had very different rules. (I haven't seen it, but the original is the one where Dedicated martial artist had 3 forms and Worldly had 2...this become 2 and 1 in Revised, apart from a couple of typos here and there e.g. the villain generator in the back).

I guess that's possible. I vaguely remember my first gaming group talking about the old Dedicated Martial Artist, and how awesome it was to play an Ancient Master from Heroes Unlimited crossed with it. N&S Revised was already out when I started gaming.

Superspies is a funny game. If you do it right, you can make a martial artist out of that book that can easily fight Nightbane and Super Heroes. A friend of mine played a Dedicated Martial Artist in a Nightbane game I ran with Tae Kwon Do and the Korean Judo Style art. His chi was through the roof, hard chi and soft chi, 6 or 7 attacks per round for massive damage. It was sick.

What is worse is that it wasn't even the best thing we have written in it.