Ive got a player really interested in the Tour of Darkness campaign for Savage Worlds but hates the system. (Too simplified, too narrow in character options, wants more grit in the combat element etc.) Any of you guys have a suggestion? I was thinking maybe my old TW:2000 2nd Ed would work.

IMO he can get bent with his wrong opinions.

But you basically have to go to GURPS or some 3.x clone. Savage Worlds is mid crunch and if that's too simple for him then so would any D&D 5e or OSR.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1081608IMO he can get bent with his wrong opinions.

But you basically have to go to GURPS or some 3.x clone. Savage Worlds is mid crunch and if that's too simple for him then so would any D&D 5e or OSR.

Well frankly I dont see any version of D&D or OSR fitting a Vietnam era military campaign. As for his opinions, well they arent wrong to him (or to me only perhaps Im not as critical as he is) but how nice of you to inform us that he is mistaken.

OH and honestly, there is simply no way anyone can call Savage Worlds "mid crunch", I mean seriously? The entire rules section is a handful of pages, the skills are like what, a dozen? I know Im an old school gamer but SW isnt advertised as Fast for nothing.

You will want something that can handle the weird elements, T2000 didn't really do anything supernatural so you would have to make something up for that. Dark Conspiracy used the same GDW house system as T2000 and it included magic, supernatural critters and weird tech so combining the two games would probably work pretty well.

GURPS is an obvious choice, and there is a Weird War book for GURPS WW2 that might be helpful if you went that way.

Quote from: Toadmaster;1081611You will want something that can handle the weird elements, T2000 didn't really do anything supernatural so you would have to make something up for that. Dark Conspiracy used the same GDW house system as T2000 and it included magic, supernatural critters and weird tech so combining the two games would probably work pretty well.



GURPS is an obvious choice, and there is a Weird War book for GURPS WW2 that might be helpful if you went that way.

Thanks,  I'd forgotten about Dark Conspiracy. Thay might actually work.

For high-crunch, mashing T:2000 and Dark Conspiracy seems like a good approach. I bought Dark Conspiracy PoD recently and it looks nice - much higher crunch in the chargen than I'd prefer though. One issue is that being Traveller-derived it creates PCs typically in the 28-36 age range, not 19 year old grunts.

OSR can do modern warfare - see WW2 Operation Whitebox - but if SW is too simple, OSR definitely would be.

Basic Roleplay/Call of Cthulu is good for gritty modern horror. I'd say it was simpler than Savage Worlds but apparently YMMV.
Unisystem - All Flesh Must Be Eaten etc - gives piles of hit points and is less gritty than BRP/CoC, designed for horror and is what I'd call mid crunch, about the same as SW I'd think.

d20 Modern has tons of crunch and is free in the d20 Modern SRD.

Quote from: S'mon;1081621For high-crunch, mashing T:2000 and Dark Conspiracy seems like a good approach. I bought Dark Conspiracy PoD recently and it looks nice - much higher crunch in the chargen than I'd prefer though. One issue is that being Traveller-derived it creates PCs typically in the 28-36 age range, not 19 year old grunts.

OSR can do modern warfare - see WW2 Operation Whitebox - but if SW is too simple, OSR definitely would be.

Basic Roleplay/Call of Cthulu is good for gritty modern horror. I'd say it was simpler than Savage Worlds but apparently YMMV.
Unisystem - All Flesh Must Be Eaten etc - gives piles of hit points and is less gritty than BRP/CoC, designed for horror and is what I'd call mid crunch, about the same as SW I'd think.

d20 Modern has tons of crunch and is free in the d20 Modern SRD.

Thanks!

Quote from: rgrove0172;1081609Well frankly I dont see any version of D&D or OSR fitting a Vietnam era military campaign. As for his opinions, well they arent wrong to him (or to me only perhaps Im not as critical as he is) but how nice of you to inform us that he is mistaken.

OH and honestly, there is simply no way anyone can call Savage Worlds "mid crunch", I mean seriously? The entire rules section is a handful of pages, the skills are like what, a dozen? I know Im an old school gamer but SW isnt advertised as Fast for nothing.

I'm jokingly calling his opinions wrong because he either doesn't know the rules all that well or his opinion is based on the game from like two editions ago. (Just apply the Gritty Damage setting rule, and SWADE should have plenty of new toys for him to play with)

My evidence that SW is mid-crunch is that I see both threads complaining that it's too light/simple, and other threads about how their is too much crunchy GURPS simulationism and how no RPG needs 4 kinds of pistols or rules for fall damage.

And no, do not actually use Savage Worlds, but do go for something like GURPS in terms of crunch.