Quote from: Lunamancer on May 20, 2023, 08:26:14 PM
I believe it's most fundamental idea is wrong. I do not believe the pillars fundamentally oppose each other. They compliment one another, in the sense that one pillar is better satisfied by the inclusion of the others rather than the exclusion of the others.

For a guy I have on Ignore List (saw it quoted by Eric), Loony does speak some truth here.  For instance the Simulation element in Gygaxian D&D strongly supports the Gamist play. Likewise, Dramatist games (or fiction) without a Simulation element feel weightless and hollow.

My theory is called Theory in Theory Sorting, or TiTS

TiTsposits that people like to categorize things to make sense of the world even if its ultimately superfluous.....On a rating of 1-10.

Quote from: Eric Diaz on May 20, 2023, 09:17:48 PM
Agreed. I think the failure/success of 4e and 5e proved this theory wrong.

dnd 5's success was not due to its qualities as a game but a combination of millions of advertising dollars and that one mixer show that became a hit.

Quote from: jhkim on May 20, 2023, 10:13:56 PM
I agree about the first part regarding tradeoffs, though I'm not sure about the latter part. The point of tradeoffs is exactly what I wrote about the Threefold Model before Ron Edwards created his GNS Model. This is in part what I wrote back in 1998 about the Threefold Model:

Quote2) Which one am I? Drama-, Game-, or Simulation-oriented?

Most likely, none of the above. Your individual style cannot be pidgeonholed into a single word. More to the point, you probably use a mix of different techniques, and work towards more than one goal. You may tend more towards one corner of the triangle, but you probably value a mix.

and

Quote4) Don't those categories overlap?

It is true that these goals are not constantly at odds. On the short term, a given conflict might happen to be both a fair challenge and realistically resolved. However, every game will have problems, including undramatic bits, unrealistic bits, and unbalanced bits. The Threefold asks about how much comparative effort you put into solving these.

Even a perfectly simulationist or gamist campaign will have dramatic bits in them. After all, people will tell stories about things that happened to them in real life, or even about what happened in a chess game they were playing. Similarly, a dramatist campaign will have some conflicts that are a fair challenge for the players, and some events that are realistic. But an equally-skilled gamist GM, who doesn't put excess effort into the quality of the story, will be able to make better challenges. Similarly, a simulationist GM, who focusses only on in-game resolutions, will be able to make things more "realistic" for that game-world.

Is it possible you agree with these but disagree more with Ron Edwards' take on things in GNS?

Not really. I mean there are a few issues.

First, I must emphasize that my view isn't just that the pillars overlap or don't oppose one another. It's that in RPGs each pillar is strengthened through the other two pillars.

Are the three-fold pillars better than the pillars in GNS? I'm not sure. It's weird that when I read the definitions of either, that they really don't speak to me or my experiences. These aren't the things I've ever seen anyone argue over at the table. These aren't the terms I think in when I think, I need a little more of this, or a little more of that. They're not the likely things to cause compatibility issues within the group. They're not the things I see relating to the preferences of different gamers.

Like I don't see where this is fundamental or significant or relevant. It seems like it falls somewhere on the spectrum between fun and goofy in line with "What's Your Love Language? Take This Quick Quiz To Find Out." I don't think it's a real thing. But I think it's out there enough to get some to act as if it's real.

This is the real issue I have with it. I only get to the other issues when I say, Okay, let's keep an open mind about this and let's give the devil his due. While it may not be the most obvious or most relevant or most useful way to look at things, it's certainly one possible way of looking at things. And it's potentially a fresh perspective from the one I'm used to.

And at first it seems easy enough. Drama, gamist, simulation. Fine. Okay. I sort of know what those words mean and can see how they related to some of the things we're doing in an RPG. But then I take a closer look at how they're defined in the "model." Wait. Gamist concerns itself with a "fair" challenge? What does that even mean?

Is a power play in hockey a "fair" challenge? One team outnumbers the other. Oh, but we only get to that situation because someone got thrown in the penalty box. Okay. So none of the plays themselves necessarily have to be fair. I guess what counts is things are fair at the start of the game. Same number of players on each side. Score begins zero to zero. Referee is supposedly neutral. Neither side is given possession of the puck. But we know the teams themselves are usually not equal. We have stats on all these players. In fact, we have betting pools on the game itself. And it's usually not given even odds. One team is usually favored to win over the other.

In an RPG, if an encounter with a giant purple pecker beast leads to a TPK, was that an unfair challenge? A lot of hard core old-schoolers will tell you the challenge is in knowing when to run. So it's perfectly fair. Ah, but what if the giant purple pecker best surprised the party and blasted then with its toxic spittle? The party didn't even have the chance to run. Surely that's unfair. But a super hard-ass old schooler might tell you part of the challenge is to knowing not to journey to the Prick Woods without special protection.

If you zoom out far enough, it's always fair. So does being super gamist then mean being fair on the finest scale possible? I would push back on that. Like the team on the losing end of a power play. I don't think saying, "Nah, jk, you can have your guy back," is necessarily the most fair way to go with that. So how do we meaningfully decide on what's fair?

I'm not saying there are no answers to that question. It's just the answers I can think of require it be buttressed by the other two pillars. Like none of these pillars even have coherent definitions separate from the others. I can do the same thing with drama or simulation as a starting point, but I'm not going to step through that here, because I think I've adequately explained my perspective.

I will simply end by saying, if anything, I usually see conflict arising intra-pillar. From my break down of questioning what exactly does fair mean, it's not hard to imagine two players (or more likely one player and a GM) latching onto two different scales and thus reaching different conclusions to the question of whether or not something that happened in the game was "fair." It's almost inevitable. Whereas there's no reason to automatically believe that my good story gets in the way of your good boss fight or vice versa. I mean they might be at odds by happenstance. But they are not inherently at odds. And moreover I think they're usually aligned. What makes a "gamism" exciting also makes it dramatic and vice versa.

Greetings!

I have long held to my own "Three Pillars of RPG's."

My Three Pillars of RPG Campaigns are the following:

FIGHTING: Heroic combat. Lots of fighting, death, blood, and war. People and creatures need to be dying. Pile the bodies up! Unleash the vengeance! Men and women alike, most everyone loves violence. Violence is deeply satisfying to the beast lurking under the façade of civilization and polite society.

BOOTY: Lots of SEX. Men and women alike, everyone likes sex. The more, the better. Drown them in all the fine booty they can grab, with both hands. Later on, spouses, families, and kids become important. Otherwise filed under "Romance".

GOLD: Gold, baby. Piles of silver and gold, fine jewels. Crazy detailed toys. Epic, glorious magic items. Give it all out with a lavish hand, like candy.

In all the years I have been playing, these three pillars have kept players engaged, again and again. When a GM is stuck, or uncertain, unload the train of FBG--FIGHTING, BOOTY, and GOLD. It has never failed. It is these three primary elements that make a campaign interesting, dramatic, exciting, and fun. It is important to remember that all three of the pillars are like legs on a table; they are each more or less equally important. These are the three pillars I think that every GM should embrace. Your game and your campaign will always be better off with MORE FBG! Remember, the three principles that will lead to true happiness and GM mastery is FBG.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on May 22, 2023, 03:55:41 AM
Greetings!

I have long held to my own "Three Pillars of RPG's."

My Three Pillars of RPG Campaigns are the following:

FIGHTING: Heroic combat. Lots of fighting, death, blood, and war. People and creatures need to be dying. Pile the bodies up! Unleash the vengeance! Men and women alike, most everyone loves violence. Violence is deeply satisfying to the beast lurking under the façade of civilization and polite society.

BOOTY: Lots of SEX. Men and women alike, everyone likes sex. The more, the better. Drown them in all the fine booty they can grab, with both hands. Later on, spouses, families, and kids become important. Otherwise filed under "Romance".

GOLD: Gold, baby. Piles of silver and gold, fine jewels. Crazy detailed toys. Epic, glorious magic items. Give it all out with a lavish hand, like candy.

In all the years I have been playing, these three pillars have kept players engaged, again and again. When a GM is stuck, or uncertain, unload the train of FBG--FIGHTING, BOOTY, and GOLD. It has never failed. It is these three primary elements that make a campaign interesting, dramatic, exciting, and fun. It is important to remember that all three of the pillars are like legs on a table; they are each more or less equally important. These are the three pillars I think that every GM should embrace. Your game and your campaign will always be better off with MORE FBG! Remember, the three principles that will lead to true happiness and GM mastery is FBG.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I love your FBG RPG theory, definitely my favourite!

Most of my own games are definitely FBG. I ran WoTC's Princes of the Apocalypse which lacks either B or G and is a bit lame, but one of the female players' female PC did develop a romance with one of the male bad guys, so that was cool. My Dragonbane: Misty Vale game lacks the B element, at least so far. My Dragonbane: Xoth hardcore S&S game has tons of B though.    It's an online game https://simonyrpgs.blogspot.com/2023/03/sword-sorcery-cultures-for-dragonbane.html

One of the Xoth players Tony just asked to have his wife Kim join. They're both good friends of mine and lovely people. I was a bit nervous - "It's about as Politically Correct as a 1934 Conan story" - but Kim pointed out that I've seen her bookshelf full of REH and other S&S! So I let her in.  She's playing  Mei Hua, a Decadent Taikangian (Chinese) Initiate of Nakhramat and Agent of the Khardeslik, a kind of spy/assassin. She's half Chinese herself, which may have affected her choice of ethny.  https://simonyrpgs.blogspot.com/2023/05/xoth-mei-hua.html 
I mentioned that the sinister Taikangian Vizier of Dipur has a scary bodyguard, who seems at least half demon. Her immediate reaction was to start planning how to get the demon for herself. 

Quote from: S'mon on May 22, 2023, 04:13:08 AM

Quote from: SHARK on May 22, 2023, 03:55:41 AM
Greetings!

I have long held to my own "Three Pillars of RPG's."

My Three Pillars of RPG Campaigns are the following:

FIGHTING: Heroic combat. Lots of fighting, death, blood, and war. People and creatures need to be dying. Pile the bodies up! Unleash the vengeance! Men and women alike, most everyone loves violence. Violence is deeply satisfying to the beast lurking under the façade of civilization and polite society.

BOOTY: Lots of SEX. Men and women alike, everyone likes sex. The more, the better. Drown them in all the fine booty they can grab, with both hands. Later on, spouses, families, and kids become important. Otherwise filed under "Romance".

GOLD: Gold, baby. Piles of silver and gold, fine jewels. Crazy detailed toys. Epic, glorious magic items. Give it all out with a lavish hand, like candy.

In all the years I have been playing, these three pillars have kept players engaged, again and again. When a GM is stuck, or uncertain, unload the train of FBG--FIGHTING, BOOTY, and GOLD. It has never failed. It is these three primary elements that make a campaign interesting, dramatic, exciting, and fun. It is important to remember that all three of the pillars are like legs on a table; they are each more or less equally important. These are the three pillars I think that every GM should embrace. Your game and your campaign will always be better off with MORE FBG! Remember, the three principles that will lead to true happiness and GM mastery is FBG.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I love your FBG RPG theory, definitely my favourite!

Most of my own games are definitely FBG. I ran WoTC's Princes of the Apocalypse which lacks either B or G and is a bit lame, but one of the female players' female PC did develop a romance with one of the male bad guys, so that was cool. My Dragonbane: Misty Vale game lacks the B element, at least so far. My Dragonbane: Xoth hardcore S&S game has tons of B though.    It's an online game https://simonyrpgs.blogspot.com/2023/03/sword-sorcery-cultures-for-dragonbane.html

One of the Xoth players Tony just asked to have his wife Kim join. They're both good friends of mine and lovely people. I was a bit nervous - "It's about as Politically Correct as a 1934 Conan story" - but Kim pointed out that I've seen her bookshelf full of REH and other S&S! So I let her in.  She's playing  Mei Hua, a Decadent Taikangian (Chinese) Initiate of Nakhramat and Agent of the Khardeslik, a kind of spy/assassin. She's half Chinese herself, which may have affected her choice of ethny.  https://simonyrpgs.blogspot.com/2023/05/xoth-mei-hua.html 
I mentioned that the sinister Taikangian Vizier of Dipur has a scary bodyguard, who seems at least half demon. Her immediate reaction was to start planning how to get the demon for herself. 

Greetings!

*Laughing* That's right, my friend! FBG is the way to run a campaign!

Your new campaign sounds sweet! Kim sounds cool, too. How old is she? Hw old is Tony, her husband? And DAYUM! The picture! Pure historical goodness! I love the whole authentic peasant look. The black and white photo. REAL PEOPLE. That's fucking exciting!

Kim wants the half demon bodyguard for herself? *Laughing* So awesome!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on May 22, 2023, 05:39:51 AM
Your new campaign sounds sweet! Kim sounds cool, too. How old is she? Hw old is Tony, her husband? And DAYUM!

They're both part of the Greatest Generation - Gen X.  50 years old, exactly the same age as me. Met in University and married for 30 years, one child, Max (14/15). We all play Dragonbane: Misty Vale together, along with our mutual friends Philippe and Jelena, a lovely French couple. All great people.   

SHARK, I think you could shorten the name of your system to FB²: Fighting, Booty, and Booty... with the first booty begin the sexy kind, and the second being the pirate kind.  Eff-Bee-squared sounds like a winner to me!

Edit: Now that I think about it, you could just go with Bee-cubed (B³): Blood, Booty, and Booty.  Then put dots in the Os of the first "booty" to make it look lewd...

Quote from: Eirikrautha on May 22, 2023, 04:08:16 PM
SHARK, I think you could shorten the name of your system to FB²: Fighting, Booty, and Booty... with the first booty begin the sexy kind, and the second being the pirate kind.  Eff-Bee-squared sounds like a winner to me!

Edit: Now that I think about it, you could just go with Bee-cubed (B³): Blood, Booty, and Booty.  Then put dots in the Os of the first "booty" to make it look lewd...

I was thinking FBG works best as it also stands for Effin Big Gun. 

I see a lot of GMs online prudishly decry having any sexy booty in their games, but IME most players love that stuff, and depending on genre you may really need it to match the originating fiction. Tolkien is fairly sexless (as a reader I barely noticed the romances in LoTR) but you can't really do Swords & Sorcery without the booty IMO.

Quote from: SHARK on May 22, 2023, 03:55:41 AM
Greetings!

I have long held to my own "Three Pillars of RPG's."

My Three Pillars of RPG Campaigns are the following:

FIGHTING: Heroic combat. Lots of fighting, death, blood, and war. People and creatures need to be dying. Pile the bodies up! Unleash the vengeance! Men and women alike, most everyone loves violence. Violence is deeply satisfying to the beast lurking under the façade of civilization and polite society.

BOOTY: Lots of SEX. Men and women alike, everyone likes sex. The more, the better. Drown them in all the fine booty they can grab, with both hands. Later on, spouses, families, and kids become important. Otherwise filed under "Romance".

GOLD: Gold, baby. Piles of silver and gold, fine jewels. Crazy detailed toys. Epic, glorious magic items. Give it all out with a lavish hand, like candy.

In all the years I have been playing, these three pillars have kept players engaged, again and again. When a GM is stuck, or uncertain, unload the train of FBG--FIGHTING, BOOTY, and GOLD. It has never failed. It is these three primary elements that make a campaign interesting, dramatic, exciting, and fun. It is important to remember that all three of the pillars are like legs on a table; they are each more or less equally important. These are the three pillars I think that every GM should embrace. Your game and your campaign will always be better off with MORE FBG! Remember, the three principles that will lead to true happiness and GM mastery is FBG.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Might I suggest "Booty, Looty, Shooty"?

Quote from: SHARK on May 22, 2023, 03:55:41 AM
Greetings!

I have long held to my own "Three Pillars of RPG's."

My Three Pillars of RPG Campaigns are the following:

FIGHTING: Heroic combat. Lots of fighting, death, blood, and war. People and creatures need to be dying. Pile the bodies up! Unleash the vengeance! Men and women alike, most everyone loves violence. Violence is deeply satisfying to the beast lurking under the façade of civilization and polite society.

BOOTY: Lots of SEX. Men and women alike, everyone likes sex. The more, the better. Drown them in all the fine booty they can grab, with both hands. Later on, spouses, families, and kids become important. Otherwise filed under "Romance".

GOLD: Gold, baby. Piles of silver and gold, fine jewels. Crazy detailed toys. Epic, glorious magic items. Give it all out with a lavish hand, like candy.

In all the years I have been playing, these three pillars have kept players engaged, again and again. When a GM is stuck, or uncertain, unload the train of FBG--FIGHTING, BOOTY, and GOLD. It has never failed. It is these three primary elements that make a campaign interesting, dramatic, exciting, and fun. It is important to remember that all three of the pillars are like legs on a table; they are each more or less equally important. These are the three pillars I think that every GM should embrace. Your game and your campaign will always be better off with MORE FBG! Remember, the three principles that will lead to true happiness and GM mastery is FBG.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Do anything with "Turf?"

Terrain usually gets underrated in RPGs.

Quote from: amacris on May 20, 2023, 10:12:16 PM
I think GNS makes two major errors:

1) It treats Stance as a minor or ancillary aspect of RPGs, while I believe Stance is the *defining* characteristic of an RPG. If you are in "Director" or "Author" stance you are not playing an RPG, you're playing a Story Game.

Yet you consider Actor (Simulationist) and Author (Narrative) stances so inherently in conflict that they lead to entirely different types of games.

Quote from: amacris on May 20, 2023, 10:12:16 PM2) It assumes that the three patterns of play are inherently in conflict when in fact they can be complimentary flavors cooked together, and at a minimum can be enjoyed as separate dishes within the same multi-course meal.

Agendas are about priorities, not absolutes. And when they're in conflict you're going to have to make a choice.

I have my own model. I call it, Responsibilities, Activities, Talents, or the RATS theory.

• Responsibilities: Responsibilities are the tasks which you must get done for the game to continue, or should do for it to have high quality gameplay. Obviously, some degree of GM prep is required, players must make characters and roleplay, all players must engage in some bookkeeping. Etc.
• Activities: Activities are things the group does to create fun. Combat and roleplay are the two most common activities, but strategizing and discussion are also options.
• Talents: Talents apply to both player characters and to players themselves. The player characters identify themselves by their talents, and the player's role at the game table is often drastically improved by trying to feel out a player's talents and use them.

I think the biggest failing of modern RPGs is that they do not utilize player talents correctly. They understand player character talents only; players are usually identical blank slates. I often try to find things for talented players to do at my table. The party "min maxer" often becomes the party Weapons Master, the player responsible for giving players tactical advice or filling out loot, making equipment, etc. Players gifted at writing lore I often rope in for worldbuilding. I also have no problem asking players to roleplay several characters provided they'll never be on screen at the same time. A gifted roleplayer playing the part of a TV news anchor can take stress off the GM and give the player a chance to roleplay in a different direction at the same time.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on May 21, 2023, 11:29:20 AM
My theory is called Theory in Theory Sorting, or TiTS

TiTsposits that people like to categorize things to make sense of the world even if its ultimately superfluous.....On a rating of 1-10.

So with this and SHARK's developing theory of Battle, Booty, & Booty, where does a triple B measure on the TiTs scale? 

And can we rename SHARK's RPG theorem, replacing Battle into onomatopoeia plus conflating the two booty into a greater booty, so that it's: Bang Big Booty? 

I think such game philosophizing, though superfluous, is going places.