Quote from: jibbajibba;778291Ask yourself why is it just gamers that use hex maps?
Are they the only people who need to estimate distances on maps?
Are they the only people that use maps for leisure?

Gamers use Hex maps in many ways specifically because they are roleplaying.  

• If I was an actual general in a wargame I would have better maps, a tent with table to lay it on and tools to measure accurately enough for artillery fire (my troops hope).
• If I was a ranger I'd know the lay of the land and be able to navigate by landmarks.
• If I was just a fighter, I might not even have a map, and if I did, it sure wouldn't be all that accurate, and I damn well wouldn't have anything to measure with other then my hand or the width of a dagger.

Since I don't have any of that, a Hex map is a very fast way to measure and estimate distance and movement, as well as terrain.  It's "good enough" on multiple levels.

Why don't non-gamers use hex maps?  Because non-gamers have accurate maps and tools if they need measurements.  Gamers need simple, quick maps that impart multiple pieces of information quickly without doing anything other then counting hexes.

That having been said, I'm not a hex-map guru like Rob and I don't use them frequently, but after seeing the "count a switchback twice" method return such a good result, I may use them more.

Quote from: jibbajibba;778280So first off I chose this scale of map because it's small. The idea was to show what might happen inside a hex so as to demonstrate that counting hexes was rarely going to give an accurate overal picture. But specifically when a route was complex enough not to be able to use a scale to measure it, this woudl imply that just straight up counting hexes would be hard as well. That was why I chose a mountain route on a small scale map.

Your post makes no mention of that. It focus was on the measurement of a winding path and makes no mention of scale or the fact it was in the interior of a hex.  You are moving the goal post.

With that being said larger maps for gaming do have features that exhibit the same problem as the mountain. Rivers are often drawn realistically even with a hex grid. My solution to measuring the mountain trail aide in using larger scale gaming maps.

Quote from: jibbajibba;778280I would not have expected someone to impose a micro grid on the map..

Hex grid are used at various scales. Notably Judge Guild Campaign Hexagon system and the Forgotten Realms.

Quote from: jibbajibba;778280I can see that you could carry a transparency of a hex grid and use this to estimate distance, woudl of course depend on matching the scales etc but I can see (as in this example) it can be done. The question is why? There is a scale on the map and its there to help you work out distance either by eye or by sectioning the route against an edge.

I addressed this before. Eyeballing distance is a skill not everybody possesses in equal measure. Sectioning by ruler is more tedious then counting/double counting hexes.

Quote from: jibbajibba;778280As I noted previously people that use maps all the time don't use hex maps. If they are the panecea then why don't Ordnace survey publish on hex maps, why don't armies use them or orienteers or anyone apart from gamers (actually I could see a biologist using a hex grid for sampling species diversity etc. Usually they use a square grid in 10x10 so woring out % cover and stuff is easier but I digress ..)

Because the standard is to use grids for references as it fits the real world usage of latitude and longitude. For everything else precision is required so they will measure it precisely whether it is for area or distance.

Gaming in contrast is a leisure activity where speed is prized over precision. Hexes were found to be a good compromise in rendering area and distance on gaming maps both for wargaming and tabletop roleplaying. Grids were tried and found to be lacking.

Quote from: jibbajibba;778280So yes you can produce a grid of a small enough scale to be able to estimate a route on hexes, without a doubt, but why would you go to that much effort? Reading a map and using the scale to measure distance is the first thing you learn in geography class when you are 11.

And if you notice most of the kids doing that are using rulers.  Because measuring by sight is a talent not easily used by everybody.

And again there are larger scale features, like rivers, that occasionally needs measuring on a gaming maps. So there is a need to quickly estimate winding distances.  

Quote from: jibbajibba;778280"why do you bother to use hexes?"
the obvious answer is becuase that is what you are used to which is just another way of saying "tradition".

As you said before, you find hexes to be an inferior method of measuring distance on a map. I pointed out their advantage in speed of measurement in ESTIMATING the real distance.

Quote from: jibbajibba;778291In short the GM is being asked a small number of questions about distance infrequently and so doesn't need to rely on a hex grid to get answers.

I never said that hex grid were the only option or always the best option. You stated on several occasions that you viewed hex maps as a inferior tool. My point was and still is that it depends on the individual in question which method of estimating is the superior.

The best way is to be able to sight read a map. That is the quickest and fastest way of estimating. But that not not a common talent. Another method is to use a map wheel. Another is to segment a path with a ruler, a third is to use rectangular grid, and last is the hex grid.  All these methods have associated benefits and limitation. Which one is "best" depends on the individual and what they are comfortable with.

In the real world precision is prized hence the need to teach how to correctly use a scale and measure distance on a map. In gaming speed is what crucial so whatever method that gets a decent estimate that works the FASTEST for an individual is the best methods. Sometimes that hexes and sometimes it another method. For you sight estimate are the way to go. For me it is hexes, for another person using a map wheel, for other rulers.

This is assuming that a good estimate is needed in the first place. If it not then just look at the map use whatever you think it. Don't the make the mistake that just because I can talk in detail about the use hexes that I think they ought to be used all the time by everybody. They are a tool to be used when they work well for the purpose.

What they are not is inferior to all other methods for measuring distances on a gaming map.

Quote from: jibbajibba;778291The point is are there things you can do with hexes in a roleplay not wargame context, that you can't do with an ordinary map?

In terms of capability there is no difference. The difference lies in speed and ease of use in three areas, measurement of distance, land area, and reference. Of the three measuring area is the most dramatic difference in ease of use when it comes to tabletop roleplaying games.

Of course you can use a rectangular grid. But if you are going to impose a grid in the first place for a gaming map then you want to also be able to use it for more than just measuring area. There is no difference between rectangular grids and hexes for reference. But for estimating distances hexes are a superior alternative to rectangular grids. As the grid forms a radius around a central hex.

Quote from: jibbajibba;778291My point its that if you have say a 1 KM hex grid with 2 inch hexes you can't easily refer to a specific point in the hex. You can't subdivide it by eye.

Personally I never had trouble doing that. However having a map with 2 inch hexes in my experience is not good design. Ideally hexes should be between 3/8" and 5/8" of an inch. Big enough so that the grid lines don't obliterate map detail. Small enough so there enough of them to serve as a useful reference.

If you go with abstract terrain symbols like with the Mystara maps you can go down to 3/16". Personally I don't care for that style, but a lot of people are quite happy with it.
 

Quote from: jibbajibba;778291the standard grid used on normal maps, the ones that non-gamers use, use 4 and 6 figure grid references. the 4 figure gives you the grid square, the 6 figure gives you the precise spot. Effectively the additional digit on the horizontal and vertical axes divides each grid square into 100 smaller squares. This is simple and intuitive to people in the same way that % are.

That been tried before, for example Verbosh from Judges Guild, and turned out not be a popular way to go for gaming maps.

Quote from: jibbajibba;778291My point is that the ability to read an ordinary map is not hard. You can teach it to an average 11 year old in 30 minutes.

And my point is that the correct and ordinary way of reading maps is not the fastest method of estimating distances on a map, unless you can do it by sight. Because of that people seek alternatives, a popular alternative is a hex grid.

Quote from: jibbajibba;778291This doesn't mean that hex maps bring anything more than familiarity to the table when you move from board and war games to RPGs.

If that was true then it would just be use hoary old grognards sticking to them. Yet two formats have persisted in tabletop roleplaying. The travelogue map without a grid at varying scales. And maps with the hex grids. The real world grid system you mention gets tried now and again but never gains traction.

Quote from: jibbajibba;778291You remain emotionally invested, I mean you must have spend ages adding small hex grids measuring distances etc more refusing my point

Two reasons
One because I like debating on this forum. Part of the reason I participate here.

Two I am noted through, through my blog, for popularizing the hexcrawl setting. I do this not just because I like the format. I do this also because I found I can explain it in way that makes it a useful tool for other. And that is gratifying.  I don't expect everybody to like hexgrids or the hexcrawl format. It has advantage and disadvantage. But once understand, the gamer has another tool to use in dealing with creating a fun and manageable RPG campaign.


As for this conversation I am trying to teach you to why hex grids are a useful tool beyond preference. As a side benefit, teach anybody else reading these post the utility of using hex grid. Whether it of any use is up to them and I recognize that many have other methods of dealing with the issue.

And for my time investment, I been doing this long enough that it doesn't take me long to do anything with mapping and games. Particularly for a small map that only a couple of inches on a side. It took me ten minutes to slap a grid on the map you attached. My skill is NOT typical of gamers.

Part of what I do is find ways to distill what I do into a form that readily usable by a novice and explain why it works that way.

Quote from: jibbajibba;778291Ask yourself why is it just gamers that use hex maps?

That easy. The first stopping point involves the standard methods that are taught in geography. After which then they adapted  to the needs of a particular hobby. And specialized hobbies don't often cross-pollinate each other unless they are closely related. This is because the number of hobbyists are not sufficient to create a set of individual who are involved in both hobbies.

However in academia hexagon have been explored like in this paper.. Mostly in the use of displaying geographical data based on area as multiple hexes can conform to a wider variety of shapes than rectangles.

Quote from: estar;778362Your post makes no mention of that. It focus was on the measurement of a winding path and makes no mention of scale or the fact it was in the interior of a hex.  You are moving the goal post.

Agreed I didn't make it clear my fault. I was trying at first to find a hex map with your typical 1 league hex option then find a realistically drawn river and show how hard it would be to use hexes to estimate the distance but nearly all the maps I found on line had the rivers neatly following the bounds of each hex

QuoteWith that being said larger maps for gaming do have features that exhibit the same problem as the mountain. Rivers are often drawn realistically even with a hex grid. My solution to measuring the mountain trail aide in using larger scale gaming maps.

Hex grid are used at various scales. Notably Judge Guild Campaign Hexagon system and the Forgotten Realms.

not my point my point in this case. I was trying to explain that subdividing hexes into smaller units is a PitA

QuoteI addressed this before. Eyeballing distance is a skill not everybody possesses in equal measure. Sectioning by ruler is more tedious then counting/double counting hexes.

You don't section with a ruler you use a bit of blank paper you make a start point then section by section you add to the length. Yes its longer than counting hexes (it would take maybe 30 seconds to do the mountain path example) but its not longer than subdividing your large hex into smaller hexes then counting all your hexes, which must have taken you ages.

QuoteBecause the standard is to use grids for references as it fits the real world usage of latitude and longitude. For everything else precision is required so they will measure it precisely whether it is for area or distance.

Gaming in contrast is a leisure activity where speed is prized over precision. Hexes were found to be a good compromise in rendering area and distance on gaming maps both for wargaming and tabletop roleplaying. Grids were tried and found to be lacking.

This is my main driver I guess. You seem obsessed by the speed you can measure distance in for your games. As I noted from the off in wargames and boardgames hexes are great for all the reasons you site, in fact I am building 2 games currently both of which use hex grids, but in an RPG how often do you do that? When the PCs say okay we will head to Shreeport why do you feel the need to immediately work out how far that is? If its more than a day's travel you have as long as you need, maybe hours maybe 4 sessions to work it out.

How come we don't use hex maps for say Vampire games set in NY or Exploring Boot Hill, or finding our way through the swamps that surround Dr No's secret base?

QuoteAnd if you notice most of the kids doing that are using rulers.  Because measuring by sight is a talent not easily used by everybody.

And again there are larger scale features, like rivers, that occasionally needs measuring on a gaming maps. So there is a need to quickly estimate winding distances.  

Not in my classes not if they wanted to get all 30 questions completed in 30 minutes: )
Its not a hard skill its simple to learn.

QuoteAs you said before, you find hexes to be an inferior method of measuring distance on a map. I pointed out their advantage in speed of measurement in ESTIMATING the real distance.

Where you have a scale and you have time using a sectioning method is more accurate. Where you need to be fast measure by eye is pretty quick and accurate enough for any RPG game.
If your distances need to be accurate-ish and where lots of people are guessing and distances can be very important like in a wargame where you maybe move pieces every few minutes Hexes are great. If my RPG games ever get to that point we break out a war game or we abstract the combat.

I mean in D&D for instance you don't even have accurate data for how far stuff can move per hour across wilderness until the wilderness survival guide came out. How does being able to get count hexes to get an accurate-ish distance in 10 seconds when all your movement rates are entirely guess work anyway?

You have been fiddling with these maps for nearly 40 years I am sure you can guestimate a distance by eye to within 10% easily.

Quote from: estar;778387Two reasons
One because I like debating on this forum. Part of the reason I participate here.

Two I am noted through, through my blog, for popularizing the hexcrawl setting. I do this not just because I like the format. I do this also because I found I can explain it in way that makes it a useful tool for other. And that is gratifying.  I don't expect everybody to like hexgrids or the hexcrawl format. It has advantage and disadvantage. But once understand, the gamer has another tool to use in dealing with creating a fun and manageable RPG campaign.


As for this conversation I am trying to teach you to why hex grids are a useful tool beyond preference. As a side benefit, teach anybody else reading these post the utility of using hex grid. Whether it of any use is up to them and I recognize that many have other methods of dealing with the issue.

And for my time investment, I been doing this long enough that it doesn't take me long to do anything with mapping and games. Particularly for a small map that only a couple of inches on a side. It took me ten minutes to slap a grid on the map you attached. My skill is NOT typical of gamers.

Part of what I do is find ways to distill what I do into a form that readily usable by a novice and explain why it works that way.

That I can respect.
My aim is to challenge the accepted norms where I worry that they are accepted simply because... from crappy artwork, to reliance on hex maps to setting inconsistencies.

Quote from: jibbajibba;778291Yeah I prolly overstated the academic stuff there. Never my intention to do that just to establish I have a passing familiarity with maps. I also did some GIS stuff at college so familiar with computers and geography etc.

I have a degree in geography with a concentration in environmental analysis - that included taking every GIS class my uni offered, as well as doing a senior project at the request of the head of the department, to export GIS data to a statistical analysis package and import the data back into the GIS coverages.

One of my GIS projects involved taking rainforest soil data from a professor recently returned from Borneo and using geostatistics - autocorrelation, kriging, &c - to tease out relationships between soil and vegetation cover. The process included taking point data and extrapolating them into polygons for the autocorrelation analysis. My work was good enough to get me a credit on a a half-dozen papers.

I later did GIS analyses of backcountry visitation and regulatory boundaries while working as a ranger in a national park and studied the relationship between grasslands, bird habitat, and trail usage as a state park resource ecologist. I also built a GIS for a single park as a demonstration project.

As far as using maps go, I was a search-and-rescue manager and backcountry ranger, which means I have an uncommon amount of experience using topographic maps for practical purposes like route finding and distance estimation in rugged terrain.

So please believe me when I say you are talking out of your ass.

Quote from: jibbajibba;778390How come we don't use hex maps for say Vampire games set in NY or Exploring Boot Hill . . .

Boot Hill comes with a big hex map of El Dorado County, and the overland movement rates are measured in hexes.

So, y'know, quit while you're fucking behind.

I feel like some of this is missing the forest for the trees, just a bit. All the focus on measuring distance ignores the main advantage I see in subdividing a map, which is that you can then label each space (and then key the map). (KEEPING IN MIND, of course, that the same could be said of squares, etc.) I don't know what kind of scale we're all dealing with, here, but on the local map I use for our Monday AD&D game, there are any number of routes one could take between (say) Waterdeep and the House of Stone, and each intervening hex has pretty specific stuff in it (more than would be convenient to simply label on the map). So the utility of knowing the distance between two points pales, for me, next to the utility of knowing what secondary points you passed on your way there.

By the way the hex maps linked from this page are examples of what I meant by abstracting space and location.

http://save.vs.totalpartykill.ca/grab-bag/