TheRPGSite

Anyone here ever do their mapping for sandbox games on anything other than hexes? It seems like recently I ran across someones blog where they did the mapping on graph paper for smaller scales, which looked cool. Anyway it got met thinking about other ways it could be done, not because they may be better but just... because.

Well, I can't draw for shit (and even use of graphic programs such as Campaign Cartographer elude me, though perhaps because I don't want to put in the necessary work in), but I do try to just well, draw a map. Make a scale, then draw stuff.

Quote from: Arkansan;776699Anyone here ever do their mapping for sandbox games on anything other than hexes? It seems like recently I ran across someones blog where they did the mapping on graph paper for smaller scales, which looked cool. Anyway it got met thinking about other ways it could be done, not because they may be better but just... because.

Depends on the game and setting. Both hexes and grids have the advantage of allowing an easy method for describing where on the map a feature is located which allows making a key that refers to the map easy.

Hexes are nice for outdoors and planetary mapping due to avoidance of the movement on the diagonal problem.. By gridding the hexes with some letter/number combination you can easily create a key of what is in the hexes that easily tracks between key and map.

Graph paper tends to be nicer for buildings and other man made stuff that tends more towards the rectangular. And you can of course easily grid the graph paper for reference.

A blank map is nice as you don't feel any need to try to fit terrain into a hex or square or along a hex or square side. Also many real worlds maps don't include hexes or grids.

A map with a grid, like an ordnance survey map is in between mapping on graph paper and mapping on a blank map. That is what I use for a lot of my Honor+Intrigue maps. Since they are real maps from the time period (1620s) they don't include hexes or graph paper, but I still need a way of identifying where the heck on the map of Paris the Tavern of the Two Horses is located. So I superimpose a grid on the edges of the map and presto easy locatability.

I use septagon paper. Seven sides. It's one more than six.

Quote from: Scott Anderson;776752I use septagon paper. Seven sides. It's one more than six.

Any particular reason or is it just a preference thing?

Quote from: Arkansan;776800Any particular reason or is it just a preference thing?

Just wants to one up those of who use hexagons. :p


EDIT: But then I though of this: The extra side means they never have to be on the same side as anyone else.

Quote from: Scott Anderson;776752I use septagon paper. Seven sides. It's one more than six.

It's Heptagon. :p  Pentagons, Heptagons and Octagons can't tile.

(http://www.mathsinthecity.com/sites/www.mathsinthecity.com/files/u82/image5.png)

Quote from: Arkansan;776699Anyone here ever do their mapping for sandbox games on anything other than hexes?

Yeah, I pretty much use blank paper - because I always have lost of blank paper.

This old thread (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=23021) might be relevant. Turns out hexes are fairly handy, all things considered.

Quote from: CRKrueger;776814It's Heptagon. :p  Pentagons, Heptagons and Octagons can't tile.

(http://www.mathsinthecity.com/sites/www.mathsinthecity.com/files/u82/image5.png)

They do, you just have to mash them together a bit stronger.

I have used a grid before and I have also used a grid and even rectangles to simulate a hex grid.

Two examples.

Graph paper used to make a square hex grid.

(http://cf.geekdo-images.com/images/pic1955322_md.png)

And cards or rectangles to make a hex grid.

(http://cf.geekdo-images.com/images/pic1204297_md.png)

Also someone had a system for what they called a "point crawl" which was exploring freeform on a map and just noting locales. Points of interest. Worked well it seems with pregen or standard maps even.

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-xFuBPa9r100/TwxRdcgc5oI/AAAAAAAAD6g/X8cdD6Z39V0/s320/scan0001.jpg)

http://hillcantons.blogspot.com/2012/01/crawling-without-hexes-pointcrawl.html (http://hillcantons.blogspot.com/2012/01/crawling-without-hexes-pointcrawl.html)

And other odd approaches.

Point crawl looks kind of what is called area movement or point movement in wargames. Idea is that you mark all the "doable" connections between "interesting" locations and then add a cost to the connections.

I think some of the -gons will tile a non-flat surface. Just look at a 12-sided die. Not sure how useful that is.

Or instead of costs you make smaller spaces for more difficult terrain and just charge 1 movement point per space.

See Kingmaker, Hannibal: Rome vs Carthage, Pelopennesian War, Breakout Normandy on BGG if you're interested.

Quote from: Arminius;776879Point crawl looks kind of what is called area movement or point movement in wargames. Idea is that you mark all the "doable" connections between "interesting" locations and then add a cost to the connections.

Oh lovely, let's bring graph theory into this.  Now I'm having flashbacks to those tessaract dungeons that were so popular in 1980.

Hex maps are entirely a tradition thing.  Anything you can do on a hex map you can do on a latitude & longitude gridded map.

Assorted blog posts I have recently read on 'point-crawling', which places more of an emphasis on finding your way via trails and landmarks.

http://hillcantons.blogspot.com/2012/01/crawling-without-hexes-pointcrawl.html

http://www.necropraxis.com/2012/01/24/musings-on-mapping/

http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1145

http://elderskull.blogspot.com/2011/12/maps-crappy-edition.html

Neat. Lots of good ideas in here.

Quote from: daniel_ream;776916Oh lovely, let's bring graph theory into this.  Now I'm having flashbacks to those tessaract dungeons that were so popular in 1980.

Hex maps are entirely a tradition thing.  Anything you can do on a hex map you can do on a latitude & longitude gridded map.

This.

Hexes are great for boardgames where you need to be reasonably accurate with and quick with movement for a number of turns for a game lasting a few hours. In an RPG they are superfluous and you can just use a map.

In reality you don't need a map for a sandbox at all. A sandbox isn't defined by the physical space its the playable space that matters. If you did a modern day game based on CIA agents tracking terrorists it could still be a sandbox but you wouldn't draw a hexmap of the world would you.

Quote from: jibbajibba;776938If you did a modern day game based on CIA agents tracking terrorists it could still be a sandbox but you wouldn't draw a hexmap of the world would you.

It's funny you mention that since I have also recently read a pair of articles on character-based sandbox maps (drawn from the old Top Secret rules)

http://hillcantons.blogspot.com/2011/04/character-based-sandbox-campaigns.html

http://hillcantons.blogspot.com/2011/04/nurturing-octopus-in-your-sandbox.html

Quote from: Raven;776935Assorted blog posts I have recently read on 'point-crawling', which places more of an emphasis on finding your way via trails and landmarks.

http://hillcantons.blogspot.com/2012/01/crawling-without-hexes-pointcrawl.html

http://www.necropraxis.com/2012/01/24/musings-on-mapping/

http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1145

http://elderskull.blogspot.com/2011/12/maps-crappy-edition.html

Digging it. Thanks!

Quote from: jibbajibba;776938If you did a modern day game based on CIA agents tracking terrorists it could still be a sandbox but you wouldn't draw a hexmap of the world would you.

Nope. Nor would I expect the CIA agents to spend any time exploring a wilderness.

Quote from: Bren;776948Nope. Nor would I expect the CIA agents to spend any time exploring a wilderness.

Not even Afghan caves or Cambodian/Columbian jungles? :D

There is also How to Host a Dungeon.

While not a hex-crawler it does generate a freeform underworld and then makes a game of populating it. The end result is a fairly neet little flashed out underworld.

http://planet-thirteen.com/Dungeon.aspx (http://planet-thirteen.com/Dungeon.aspx)

(http://www.cartographersguild.com/attachments/dungeon-subterranean-mapping/16456d1251828350-hand-drawn-how-host-dungeon-hthad01_monsters.png)

Quote from: daniel_ream;776916Hex maps are entirely a tradition thing.  Anything you can do on a hex map you can do on a latitude & longitude gridded map.

Not really. Hexmaps provide an abstraction that lets you interact with terrain in a way that's *similar* to the real thing, without excessive complexity (integrating over a topo & terrain map) or handwaving. The same for point-to-point movement. It's not strictly speaking realistic but unless you stick to roads it's very difficult to say how long it will take to get from A to B on a non-regulated map--is a straight line best? If not, then which of the infinite possible overland routes do you take?

The key is not to treat a hex map purely as a way of measuring distance but to literally make each hex a single type of terrain, as in a wargame.

Re: point to point I just remembered that Metagaming's old solo Grailquest module for The Fantasy Trip was effectively ptp if you mapped it.

The point isn't that this is the only way to do things or that "analog/continuous" mapping is worse than "digitized/quantized/chunked" graphs. Just that different approaches to abstraction can be functional and fun. The hexcrawl or point-point map makes geography more gamelike, but that's not necessarily a bad thing at all.

Quote from: Arkansan;776699Anyone here ever do their mapping for sandbox games on anything other than hexes? It seems like recently I ran across someones blog where they did the mapping on graph paper for smaller scales, which looked cool. Anyway it got met thinking about other ways it could be done, not because they may be better but just... because.

In my opinion mapping with numbered hexes is a format for presenting a setting. It associated with sandbox campaigns but exists independently of it. You can railroad with a hexcrawl formatted setting as easily with a travelogue formatted setting. You can run a sandbox setting easily with a travelogue formatted setting with a hexcrawl formatted setting.

I don't use the hexcrawl format for my Majestic Wilderlands. The campaigns maps I use are drawn at 12.5 miles per hex (5 leagues = 5 hours of walking over level ground).

For local level detail I have hexgrids of different paper sizes where the small hex equals 1 league = 1 hour of walking = 2.5 miles.  The map itself is based around an irregular sized region. The size of region is based on what I am focusing on. For Scourge of the Demon Wolf it was a small barony and the resulting map focused on only a few hexes and was a quarter page printed. For Dearthwood, an orc infested forest, the map was several dozen hexes and printed it was tabloid size (17" by 11").

On the local level detailed map I label everything and just write up it similar to how I write my hexcrawl entries. The difference is that the entry refers to a label on the map instead of a hex number. Because the maps themselves are usually quite small it is not hard to look where a locale is on the map from the text.

I do this is because geography of the Majestic Wilderlands doesn't lend itself to regularly sized rectangular grids of hexes. Instead there are cluster that naturally relate to each of different sizes.

This is an example of of a campaign map at 12.5 miles per hex.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-PBZIfoEOoqw/UbUrIJmMw8I/AAAAAAAAIbk/DdbSOueY4XQ/s1600/Nomar_Campaign_2013.jpg

This is an example of regional map. Note all of these are player maps that I use for display on VTTs or printed for use on the table. My GM version has a lot of markers and label denoting locales.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_mFjy4EWzmtg/S2JmRso-NEI/AAAAAAAAAuI/9W0k5mpWaIU/s1600/Region,+Gormmah+Sm.jpg

And example of a really large regional map.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-uFRryp40Yc8/U9cNuxvWrZI/AAAAAAAAKEo/zr-IEJoRwpU/s1600/Dearthwood+Forest+Rev+3.jpg

Sometime I have alternative views Like this one of the above showing the ranges of the various Orc tribes and their major settlement.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-UyOqcHQ3Wes/UhVXpNs7WWI/AAAAAAAAIt0/sO7_BLO5j0E/s1600/Dearthwood+Forest+Rev+2b.jpg

This is a smaller scale maps. It has markers but I must have not finished labeling everything before I posted this.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-XtsI-2AZJx8/Th-y_8fUwUI/AAAAAAAABT8/xlQ38y66os4/s1600/City-State%2BRegional%2BMap%252C%2BRev%2B2.jpg

Quote from: Bren;776948Nope. Nor would I expect the CIA agents to spend any time exploring a wilderness.

So you are saying a wilderness hexcrawl is the only way to run a sandbox????

I would say the two things are separate.

Quote from: daniel_ream;776916Hex maps are entirely a tradition thing.  Anything you can do on a hex map you can do on a latitude & longitude gridded map.

Yes you can except that with hex grids you can quickly get an estimate of distance without recourse to a ruler. This is due the grid forming circles of hexes around a center hex.

That the main point of using them and why they were adopted by wargames.

Some may find this point trivial or pointless. Either they don't mind using a ruler, possess a rotary measuring device, or can easily guess a distance by sight alone. However for many, including myself, hexes are a time saver in measuring distance.

Quote from: Arminius;777011Not really. Hexmaps provide an abstraction that lets you interact with terrain in a way that's *similar* to the real thing, without excessive complexity (integrating over a topo & terrain map) or handwaving. The same for point-to-point movement. It's not strictly speaking realistic but unless you stick to roads it's very difficult to say how long it will take to get from A to B on a non-regulated map--is a straight line best? If not, then which of the infinite possible overland routes do you take?

The key is not to treat a hex map purely as a way of measuring distance but to literally make each hex a single type of terrain, as in a wargame.

Re: point to point I just remembered that Metagaming's old solo Grailquest module for The Fantasy Trip was effectively ptp if you mapped it.

The point isn't that this is the only way to do things or that "analog/continuous" mapping is worse than "digitized/quantized/chunked" graphs. Just that different approaches to abstraction can be functional and fun. The hexcrawl or point-point map makes geography more gamelike, but that's not necessarily a bad thing at all.

There is a bit od BS in this.
You are saying you can't work out how long to travel between places without a hex map? when everybody who wasn/t a wargamer int eh 70s has been doing it for years.
You are saying that hexes tie you into hex shaped terrain which is similar tot eh real thing? why can't you just explore the Dark forest as an area or the Vale or the Desert of tears or whatever.

Hexes are useful in games where you need to be able to make loads of distance decisions quickly like a board game. If you are playing an RPG then working out the time it takes the party to travel from the castle to Dragon lake probably happens once or twice a session so you can be as accurate as you like with just a normal map. In all probability it doesn't even matter cos unlike a wargame where the speed it takes you to travel matters because you are competing with someone who is also moving all that matters in an RPG is how the time it takes effects background stuff and the GM can cut that anyway they like.

So ... meh hexes are just tradition.

Quote from: estar;777075Yes you can except that with hex grids you can quickly get an estimate of distance without recourse to a ruler. This is due the grid forming circles of hexes around a center hex.

That the main point of using them and why they were adopted by wargames.

Some may find this point trivial or pointless. Either they don't mind using a ruler, possess a rotary measuring device, or can easily guess a distance by sight alone. However for many, including myself, hexes are a time saver in measuring distance.

but that usefulness is entirely trivial in an RPG. and a hex map is still inaccurate compared to measuring it.
Give me one example of an rpg where
i) You have to measure a distance in a couple of seconds
ii) you have to measure a lot of distances quickly
iii) You actually need distances to be accurate and you can't decide that as GM I mean you haven't got accurate speeds for anyone anyway...

For me it goes
Player: Okay how far is it to Dragon pass
GM: Well from what you know of the geography it's 10 miles as the crow flies but the road winds plenty and would take about 6 or maybe 7 hours.
Player: Cross country?
GM: Tough country so you could cut the distance but would probably take longer.
Player: Okay we take the road.

I like hexes to seed info in discrete pockets, so that compartmentalization helps remind me to give meaning to the vastness out there.

Other than that, I'm lazy and slip into "it's a fucking map, already" mode. So I just draw a scale measurement and a map key, bust out a make-shift ruler (pink eraser, die, cheeto...), and fucking play already. If I didn't topograph it I just guesstimate from the terrain symbols any extra difficulties.

I know, I'll go get the cone of shame.

That is handwaving, jibba. It is a method that has been used for years, true. It is still handwaving, or if you prefer, guesstimation.

Take out a real map of an area with fairly rugged terrain features such as mountain/hill/forest. Ignore all roads. It's obvious that a beeline from A to B isn't a feasible route. Even if it was, working out travel times is complicated by the irregular transitions between terrain types. Even worse if terrain is marked using symbols--does the forest edge follow the shape of the little tree symbols?---but mitigated if you use shading.

I know that it is sometimes easier and fun to treat overland travel and locales with the spatial abstraction of a boardgame. I know this because I've done it and it was fun. Conversely I've experienced frustration as a GM trying to treat overland travel rigorously on an "analog" map.

That said, I don't strongly prefer one over the other. I'm calling BS on the "tradition and nothing else" claim.

Quote from: Rincewind1;776973Not even Afghan caves or Cambodian/Columbian jungles? :D

I see your jungles with my infrared satellites and raise my fleet of reconaissance drones. ;)

Quote from: Arminius;777011Not really. Hexmaps provide an abstraction that lets you interact with terrain in a way that's *similar* to the real thing, without excessive complexity (integrating over a topo & terrain map) or handwaving. The same for point-to-point movement. It's not strictly speaking realistic but unless you stick to roads it's very difficult to say how long it will take to get from A to B on a non-regulated map--is a straight line best? If not, then which of the infinite possible overland routes do you take?

The key is not to treat a hex map purely as a way of measuring distance but to literally make each hex a single type of terrain, as in a wargame.

Re: point to point I just remembered that Metagaming's old solo Grailquest module for The Fantasy Trip was effectively ptp if you mapped it.

The point isn't that this is the only way to do things or that "analog/continuous" mapping is worse than "digitized/quantized/chunked" graphs. Just that different approaches to abstraction can be functional and fun. The hexcrawl or point-point map makes geography more gamelike, but that's not necessarily a bad thing at all.

Yes by all the gaming gods. This. Exactly this. All of this.

Quote from: jibbajibba;777074So you are saying a wilderness hexcrawl is the only way to run a sandbox????

No I am not saying that. Why would you even ask since I've elsewhere said the opposite of that. Also you can tell I didn't say that because when you read what I did write you won't see "a wilderness hexcrawl is the only way to run a sandbox" anywhere in what I wrote.

It's OK that you don't like hexes, but your insistence that the only reason anyone ever use hexes is due to tradition is silly and continuing to insist on that point makes you sound silly.

Quote from: jibbajibba;777080but that usefulness is entirely trivial in an RPG. and a hex map is still inaccurate compared to measuring it.
Give me one example of an rpg where .

First off it not based on the needs of the game i.e. mechanics. It based on the needs of the campaign. If the campaign doesn't need quick measuring of distance then it doesn't need an aide to do it.

Quote from: jibbajibba;777080i) You have to measure a distance in a couple of seconds

Tactical combat and travel within and between locales. Particularly in a sandbox campaign where the players go off in

Quote from: jibbajibba;777080ii) you have to measure a lot of distances quickly

Tactical combat when you care about positioning. Which I do in my games. Anything that cuts down on the amount of time each players spends on their turn is a good thing in my opinion and it keeps the game flowing.

Quote from: jibbajibba;777080iii) You actually need distances to be accurate and you can't decide that as GM I mean you haven't got accurate speeds for anyone anyway...

You don't need accuracy you need a good enough ballpark figure.

In our previous conservation you established that you can eyeball distance fairly accurately. In that conversation and now this, you fail to comprehend that not everybody posses that ability in equal degrees.

Either you have it or don't. I have a guy in my shop who can spot a millimeter difference between two otherwise identical parts. Nobody else in the shop can do this without a tape measure. The difference between you and him, is that he acknowledges that it is a specific talent, while you magically expect everybody to be able to do this.

Well they don't and most people need aide like a ruler or grid.

Quote from: jibbajibba;777080For me it goes
Player: Okay how far is it to Dragon pass
GM: Well from what you know of the geography it's 10 miles as the crow flies but the road winds plenty and would take about 6 or maybe 7 hours.
Player: Cross country?
GM: Tough country so you could cut the distance but would probably take longer.
Player: Okay we take the road.

This is a simplistic answer. A judgment like this is based on looking at a map and figuring out the distance "as the crow flies" and applying a fudge factor because the road is in terrain that causes it to wind around a lot.

For you, based on our previous conversation, you can look at the paper, and knowing its skill quickly come up with a guessimate that "as the crow flies" it is 10 miles. I don't doubt.

For me however, I don't have to ability to do that without an aide, either an ruler or a grid. Since I don't want to putz around with a ruler, opt for a grid. Because of my wargame experience and learning the limits of a rectangular grid I opt for a hex grid. Which allows me to quickly estimate the distance.  With the added advantage that I don't need need to look at a scale, I just need to know what the hex represent. Thus I can have an assortment of maps printed at different paper sizes laying in front me and estimate distances with good enough accuracy.

Quote from: estar;777111First off it not based on the needs of the game i.e. mechanics. It based on the needs of the campaign. If the campaign doesn't need quick measuring of distance then it doesn't need an aide to do it.



Tactical combat and travel within and between locales. Particularly in a sandbox campaign where the players go off in


Tactical combat when you care about positioning. Which I do in my games. Anything that cuts down on the amount of time each players spends on their turn is a good thing in my opinion and it keeps the game flowing.




You don't need accuracy you need a good enough ballpark figure.

In our previous conservation you established that you can eyeball distance fairly accurately. In that conversation and now this, you fail to comprehend that not everybody posses that ability in equal degrees.

Either you have it or don't. I have a guy in my shop who can spot a millimeter difference between two otherwise identical parts. Nobody else in the shop can do this without a tape measure. The difference between you and him, is that he acknowledges that it is a specific talent, while you magically expect everybody to be able to do this.

Well they don't and most people need aide like a ruler or grid.



This is a simplistic answer. A judgment like this is based on looking at a map and figuring out the distance "as the crow flies" and applying a fudge factor because the road is in terrain that causes it to wind around a lot.

For you, based on our previous conversation, you can look at the paper, and knowing its skill quickly come up with a guessimate that "as the crow flies" it is 10 miles. I don't doubt.

For me however, I don't have to ability to do that without an aide, either an ruler or a grid. Since I don't want to putz around with a ruler, opt for a grid. Because of my wargame experience and learning the limits of a rectangular grid I opt for a hex grid. Which allows me to quickly estimate the distance.  With the added advantage that I don't need need to look at a scale, I just need to know what the hex represent. Thus I can have an assortment of maps printed at different paper sizes laying in front me and estimate distances with good enough accuracy.

Dude you like hexes I get it no point us arguing about it.

Every time I have tried to wean my players from hexes, those that like them complain that they want a 'real' map (eg one with hexes) and the others that don't care are indifferent enough that it is usually just as easy to overlay a hex grid over it and be done with it. Scales are scales, and as a player I can work with them either way, even on a normal grid, the s*sqrt2 doesn't scare my trusty calculator.

Quote from: jibbajibba;777080me it goes
Player: Okay how far is it to Dragon pass
GM: Well from what you know of the geography it's 10 miles as the crow flies but the road winds plenty and would take about 6 or maybe 7 hours.
Player: Cross country?
GM: Tough country so you could cut the distance but would probably take longer.
Player: Okay we take the road.

This is too handwavey for me. 6 miles hexes are abstracted (like virtually  everything else in D&D) but at least they're backed up by hard numbers (terrain mod, move rate) instead of my inconsistent brain. And if the need for more detail arises I can zoom into that 6-mile hex and get a more accurate view of what lies within.

And since multiple people in this thread are providing quality reasons why they prefer hexes I would say this...

QuoteSo ... meh hexes are just tradition.

... is irrelevant.

It does seem like hexes do have some notable advantages, not to say that other ways won't work. I was just curious because it seemed like hexes were all I had really heard of.

Quote from: Raven;777195This is too handwavey for me. 6 miles hexes are abstracted (like virtually  everything else in D&D) but at least they're backed up by hard numbers (terrain mod, move rate) instead of my inconsistent brain. And if the need for more detail arises I can zoom into that 6-mile hex and get a more accurate view of what lies within.

And since multiple people in this thread are providing quality reasons why they prefer hexes I would say this...



... is irrelevant.

bollocks.
If the pass is 10 miles away then its 10 miles away doesn't matter if there are hexes or not. If the road winds un the mouintain to get to it so it is 23 miles long then the PCs will take 7 hours to get there if they take the road. Unless the PCs have GPS or accurate Ordnance Survey maps they have no idea precisely how far things are away even if they have a map passed to them by the local mayor.

The road through Hex A34 might be straight or it might be as windy as your logic. What matters is the length of the road not how may hexes it crosses.

A hex might be mostly forest so you could say I will roll on the forest encounter table for this hex or you could say the PCs are in a forest so I will roll on the forest encounter table.

You like Hexes cool, they are great for board games where rough distances need to be computed rapidly very often and compared in a fair way for different players, but don't pretend in an RPG, where you might need to compute one distance every hour and everything is percieved by the character in the game experiencing the world as described by the GM, that they offer any advantage to a normal everyday map that normal folks use every day for doing shit like working out how far away shit is and how long it will take to get there.

Quote from: jibbajibba;777352bollocks.

Bullshit. You're saying it's "just tradition" and people are telling you their own experience says otherwise, only to have you argue with them. Conley already made you back down anyway. It's over.

I said I liked hexes better and explained why. I didn't "claim they offer an advantage over real maps" or any of that other nonsense you manufactured.

Quote from: jibbajibba;777352bollocks.

It's still OK that you don't like hexes, but your repeated insistence that the only reason anyone ever uses hexes is due to tradition is silly and continuing to insist on that point in despite of what other people say about why they use hexes makes you sound really, really silly.

I've used hexes, squares and no-tiles and all work equally as well.

Hexes allow for movement in six directions, but squares allow 8, if you allow diagonal movement. Both are useful for working out movement where terrain is a factor (Forest hexes cost 1.,5 times movement, for example).

To be honest, unless a map has hexes, I just use a rule of thumb that the party can travel a certain distance in a day. We measure using hand-spans, most of the time.

Quote from: jibbajibba;777117Dude you like hexes I get it no point us arguing about it.

Yes but do you now understand there are other practical reasons for using hexes other than it "traditional" or as you put it above "I like hexes".

Likewise I understand why you and others don't need or find hexes useful.

Quote from: Bren;777507It's still OK that you don't like hexes, but your repeated insistence that the only reason anyone ever uses hexes is due to tradition is silly and continuing to insist on that point in despite of what other people say about why they use hexes makes you sound really, really silly.

Yes its silly but its silly because I keep on trying to argue logically with people who are emotionally invested in things.
I stopped the discussion with Estar because it was obvious from his responses that it was emotion talking not logic and its impossible to win an emotional argument over an internet forum.
 
There are lots of logical reasons using hex maps is not necessary. I was taught geography by soe of the best teachers in the UK. Then I went on to read geography in the first UK university to set up a Chair in the subject then I went to to learn now to teach geography in the oldest university in the UK and a globally recognised centre of excellence for such things. I then went on to teach geography at high school. To geographers maps are our key tools, they are like saws to carpenters or hammers to French car mechanics. The basic tools of the trade.
The very first lesson kids at UK high schools do in geography, when they are 11, is to learn the importance of maps. How to read maps, how to draw maps, how to use maps.
There are some basic rules

i. All maps must have a key, a scale and an orientation
ii. The media of the map shouldn't be allowed to influence the map if it does then you fundamentally change people's perceptions of space - see Mercator vs Phillips or Meridian centred vs IDL centred global projections
iii. The grid is for locating things on the map
iv. The scale is for measuring distances on a map

There is nothing wrong with using hex maps if you like them but it is just a personal preference they are not superior and have a few issues.

a. The hex space colours the map and it becomes defined by hexes - you all know what this means as we see it all the time hex shaped forests and rivers that follow hex edges.
b. Hex maps are weak at working out locations because you can't divide a hex. With a grid you can subdivide each "square" which is why you have 6 figure grid references as well as 4 figure grid references
c. Using the hexes as a scale only works because the map has been drawn to the grid a "real" map doesn't benefit from this. Look at the below example of a mountain path.  

(http://www.cnyhiking.com/FlatTopRoadMap0042.jpg)

If I placed this in a hex grid it doesn't change the length of the road and due to the windiness of the road the abstraction of hexes serves us no good. Just learn to use the scale. this is something 11 years old learn it's not a difficult thing and it takes moments to do.
Estar in his example says he would need a map wheel to accurately measure a distance without hexes yet he is prepared to use the rough and ready measure of hexes all the rest of the time. So effectively he is happy with a rough unit if there are hexes but needs a really accurate measure without ...that makes no sense.

Anyway I am done on this as people seem to be as emotionally invested in hex maps as they are in third rate line drawings of Orcus :)

Thank you for providing that map. It will illustrate the utility of using hexes quite nicely

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-MVwUyP6IcHw/U-WOw_vAZ3I/AAAAAAAAKGc/ovxFxAjuvM8/s1600/counting_hexes.jpg)

It has a small scale so we are forced to use an odd measurement for a hex. One-eighth of a mile or 660 feet per hex. When I drew this over top of the image it each hex measured from top to bottom 0.365 inches. The purple path I drew over the original map path measured 6.027 inches. Making the true length of the path, if you hiked it, 10,899 feet or 2.06 miles.

At a game table you could have a device with a wheel that you could roll along to measure the true length of anything on the map. But that not a common piece of equipment a person is likely to possess.

The virtue of a hex grid is that from each hex there are circles of hexes surrounding it out to an arbitrary distance. This makes it very useful to measure distance quickly from a center hex to an arbitrary point.

So what if you have a hex filled with winding paths inside the hexes. Well if I counted up the hexes that the path touches it comes out to 13 hexes or 1.625 miles. (the red numbers) Not very close to its true distance. However if I double counted (or even triple count) hexes (the blue numbers) with particularly convoluted paths. Then I get about 17 hexes or 2.125 much closer to the true distance of 2.064 miles.

Like any tool you need to use your best judgement in using this. In this case you need to estimate by sight whenever a convoluted path inside of a hex means you double or triple count it.

Quote from: jibbajibba;777683There are lots of logical reasons using hex maps is not necessary. I was taught geography by soe of the best teachers in the UK. Then I went on to read geography in the first UK university to set up a Chair in the subject then I went to to learn now to teach geography in the oldest university in the UK and a globally recognised centre of excellence for such things. I then went on to teach geography at high school. To geographers maps are our key tools, they are like saws to carpenters or hammers to French car mechanics. The basic tools of the trade.

And while Indiana University of Pennsylvania is not as prestigious as the oldest university in the UK it has a decent geography department which I happened to minor in while studying for my computer science degree. Aside from personal interest, I was a honors student in high school in geography, I figure it would a practical application for my programming skills. Because programming is a means to an end. To make the computer useful for a particular purpose. In mid 80s computer technology was starting to impact geography in a big way.
 

Quote from: jibbajibba;777683i. All maps must have a key, a scale and an orientation
ii. The media of the map shouldn't be allowed to influence the map if it does then you fundamentally change people's perceptions of space - see Mercator vs Phillips or Meridian centred vs IDL centred global projections
iii. The grid is for locating things on the map
iv. The scale is for measuring distances on a map

What I don't see mentioned here or in the proceeding paragraph is that geography is not just about the accurate rendering of the surface of the earth on a flat surface. Geography is also about using maps to convey information. Information that related to geography like population density, traffic patterns, crime, wealth, etc.

I was taught at IUP to understand what information the maps meant to convey and draw it accordingly using best practices for the information that was needed to be displayed.

What we are discussing here is the use of geography as it related to gaming a setting within a tabletop roleplaying campaign. A leisure activity. My goal is to make the map as accurate as possible, convey as much information as possible within the constraint that it is being used as tool during a tabletop roleplaying. So it is essential that it is easily and quickly used.

Using what I learned in my geography minor I picked the elements of mapping to create maps that I felt made for excellent gaming references. I guess I am doing something right because people are buying my maps. And I marvel that they are buying my maps despite the fact they don't look like they are drawn by an artist.

The point isn't to map the surface of Greyhawk accurate, the point is to convey the geography of Greyhawk in a way that it is both accurate AND quickly referee by a referee who is bantering with four to eight other individuals around a table.

Quote from: jibbajibba;777683a. The hex space colours the map and it becomes defined by hexes - you all know what this means as we see it all the time hex shaped forests and rivers that follow hex edges.

Yes the gaming cartographer has to discipline himself not to follow the hex edges. I personally have two mapping styles, one uses hexes and hex system similar Judges Guild Wilderlands. The hex grid influences geography a lot using that style.

The other style was inspired by the map of Harn and that is not influenced by hexes. The maps is drawn first and the hex are overlaid afterwards. This is due the fact I don't use symbols for any terrain or vegetation. Instead I use fills for terrain and color for vegetation which allows me to draw the edge as they would appear in real life.

Quote from: jibbajibba;777683b. Hex maps are weak at working out locations because you can't divide a hex. With a grid you can subdivide each "square" which is why you have 6 figure grid references as well as 4 figure grid references

That is not true. Judges Guild worked out a system to subdivide a hex back in 1977. In the real world you don't use hexes because we are mapping a oblate sphere onto a flat surface. A sphere that is divided into longitude and latitude. So trend is to use grid.

In gaming during the 70s hexes were found to be enormously useful to create playable wargames that accurately measured distance and area. Because this occurred alongside the development of tabletop RPGs it crossed over.

Look up Judges Guild Campaign Hexagon mapping system. It used a series of 5 mile, .2 mile, and 44 foot hexes to created a system of nested hexes that allow mapping from the campaign view down to a local view of a settlement or locale.

I wrote a popular blog spot on the ins and outs of mapping with hexes.
http://batintheattic.blogspot.com/2013/12/more-mapping-with-hexes.html

Quote from: jibbajibba;777683Anyway I am done on this as people seem to be as emotionally invested in hex maps as they are in third rate line drawings of Orcus :)

To be blunt you need to pull your head of your academic asshole.  In my opinion your deep knowledge of the topic is leaving you blind to what is useful to the average gamer. You have skills honed by years of academic study and map use, making reading real world maps second nature.

This is not true of the average gamer. They need aides and the right presentation to make a map useful to them for gaming. For what is a leisure activity.

When it comes to making maps for the Ordinance Survey, for the local planning council or for the military, you are the expert. When it comes to making usable and accurate maps for gaming, I been at it continuously for 30 years. Including manufacturing by hand my own maps in the 80s and learning how to use computers to draw maps starting in the 90s. I been selling professionally for the last decade.

Quit using the emotion dodge and own up to the fact that when comes to making maps for gaming you are not the expert in the topic.

Quote from: jibbajibba;777683Yes its silly but its silly because I keep on trying to argue logically with people who are emotionally invested in things.

Quote from: jibbajibba;777683Anyway I am done on this as people seem to be as emotionally invested in hex maps

Do you people really take this fool seriously?

Jibbajibba sometimes delivers the awesome; sometimes he thinks he has the answers when he doesn't.

Thanks for that great analysis of how to treat switchbacks in a road, Rob; in fact it generally goes a long way to explaining why "rough" hexes cost more in wargames--because often you will taking a meandering intrahex path.

Also need to find myself a map wheel. I've seen them in movies once or twice but hadn't thought about using one for gaming.

Thank Arminus, one thing I found out over on my blog is why do this at all when the movement rate for rough terrains takes switchbacks into account.

In this case there is a preexisting path that needs to be measured. Particularly if it a real world feature or you overlying hex grid on an arbitrary map. Otherwise yes I agree, the rough terrain modifier takes in account the switch backs and doubling backs.

I've used ordinarily scaled maps a lot more often than hex-gridded ones.

The latter are suited to boardgame formalisms, but I haven't used those much.

Typically, actual geography is more important than what might conform to grid  of spaces.

A party of adventurers might reckon they're so many days from Forte Garde, but at the moment what matters are rather finer details of the siting of their camp than would be at all apparent on a map with a scale of miles per inch.

Round-by-round tactical action may use a grid, especially if the rules set is geared to that, but then it is really relevant only at a locus of action: the radius of a few yards or tens of yards where figures are maneuvering.

estar, thanks for providing a coherent and comprehensive response to jibbajibba's map. Well done.

Quote from: jibbajibba;777683b. Hex maps are weak at working out locations because you can't divide a hex. With a grid you can subdivide each "square" which is why you have 6 figure grid references as well as 4 figure grid references

Factually incorrect. Subdividing a hex works the same as subdividing a grid. It does result in partial hexes, but it is a simple tiling exercise.

Your appeal to specialized knowledge is an argument from authority. When your "specialized knowledge" doesn't even include the knowledge of how to subdivide hexes - a common solution proposed in gaming circles over 35 years ago - we are left with your main "argument" actually being one of the classical logical fallacies. Ironic for someone decrying his opponents lack of logic.

Quote from: Raven;777748Do you people really take this fool seriously?

Short answer, no.

Longer answer, fuck no.

Quote from: jibbajibba;777683If I placed this in a hex grid it doesn't change the length of the road and due to the windiness of the road the abstraction of hexes serves us no good.

If your response to an abstraction is to ask, "Why the heck am I not getting complete accuracy out of this thing?" then I'm not entirely sure you actually grok the concept of abstraction.

Estar's reply demonstrates one way in which you can use hexes to very rapidly get "good enough" approximations of distance by simply counting hexes.

Another way of using the abstraction of the hex is to simply not map that path in the first place. If I put that map onto a 1-mile hex grid, the Carriage Barn would be sitting in the middle of one hex and the Observation Tower would be sitting in the middle of a hex two hexes away. If my players asked, "Is there a path from here to that Observation Tower?" I would either know the answer or I would consult the abstract mechanic I have for randomly determining whether or not a path exists.

The benefit here is that I don't have to map out every single path that exists in my campaign world: Their existence (or lack of existence) is handled abstractly and I can just focus on the features of the campaign world which significance.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;778172If your response to an abstraction is to ask, "Why the heck am I not getting complete accuracy out of this thing?" then I'm not entirely sure you actually grok the concept of abstraction.

Estar's reply demonstrates one way in which you can use hexes to very rapidly get "good enough" approximations of distance by simply counting hexes.

Another way of using the abstraction of the hex is to simply not map that path in the first place. If I put that map onto a 1-mile hex grid, the Carriage Barn would be sitting in the middle of one hex and the Observation Tower would be sitting in the middle of a hex two hexes away. If my players asked, "Is there a path from here to that Observation Tower?" I would either know the answer or I would consult the abstract mechanic I have for randomly determining whether or not a path exists.

The benefit here is that I don't have to map out every single path that exists in my campaign world: Their existence (or lack of existence) is handled abstractly and I can just focus on the features of the campaign world which significance.

Actually I was going to leave this thread but coem back again after the weekend to find Estar has written a treatise on it. So I will write something when I have the time.

My point was supposed to be that this path would exist inside a typical 1 league (aka 3 mile hex) so you would have to estimate it by eye. I would never expect anyone to acually divide a hex into tiny hexes so that would take ages.
I was trying to point out that it takes 30 minutes to teach an 11 year old how to work out the distance between 2 points using the scale on a map to track features. So for me I looked at that map and the scale and worked out in about 10 seconds that there were about 9 x 1/4 mile sections to it so the path was c. 2 1/4 miles long but also rises pretty steeply about 1500 feet so would take an hour to walk which is all you need in a RPG.
If I get time I will reply to Rob's points.

Wow, am I really the first to mention you can have pentagonal tiling for three dimensional maps? :)

Dodecahedral tiling!

Mind you... it's kinda silly. But it tiles!

Quote from: jibbajibba;778186My point was supposed to be that this path would exist inside a typical 1 league (aka 3 mile hex) so you would have to estimate it by eye. I would never expect anyone to acually divide a hex into tiny hexes so that would take ages.

When you do reply point out where you wrote this in the post because I am not seeing it anywhere. The closest I guess would this

QuoteIf I placed this in a hex grid it doesn't change the length of the road and due to the windiness of the road the abstraction of hexes serves us no good. Just learn to use the scale. this is something 11 years old learn it's not a difficult thing and it takes moments to do

Nowhere in the post it is mentioned that the attached map is supposed to be inside of a single hex.

The point of my post was to demonstrate that you can get a good enough estimate of distance of a winding path by using hexes.

If you want to move the goal posts and talk about taking an arbitrary map and estimating distance without any prior prep then you have me beat. I don't see how that applicable to a gaming session however as the referee generally knows beforehand the geography of his setting and generally prepares beforehand.

But if you had to do it on the fly then you can use a transparent overlay like the one that came with the 1st edition Forgotten Realms boxed set. These days it not hard to make one of you own with printer ready transparencies available at any office supply store.

If you want to talk about a winding path within a hex then again, as pointed out by others, that is nicely abstracted by imposing a higher movement cost to move into the hex.

Quote from: jibbajibba;778186If I get time I will reply to Rob's points.

Don't waste [strike]y[/strike]our time.

Quote from: Will;778194Wow, am I really the first to mention you can have pentagonal tiling for three dimensional maps? :)

Dodecahedral tiling!

Mind you... it's kinda silly. But it tiles!

No, post #12. :p

CRKrueger, I was TECHNICALLY correct because... look, a flumph!

The Flumph works every time, that's why they're bringing it back. :D

Quote from: estar;777718Thank you for providing that map. It will illustrate the utility of using hexes quite nicely

It has a small scale so we are forced to use an odd measurement for a hex. One-eighth of a mile or 660 feet per hex. When I drew this over top of the image it each hex measured from top to bottom 0.365 inches. The purple path I drew over the original map path measured 6.027 inches. Making the true length of the path, if you hiked it, 10,899 feet or 2.06 miles.

At a game table you could have a device with a wheel that you could roll along to measure the true length of anything on the map. But that not a common piece of equipment a person is likely to possess.

The virtue of a hex grid is that from each hex there are circles of hexes surrounding it out to an arbitrary distance. This makes it very useful to measure distance quickly from a center hex to an arbitrary point.

So what if you have a hex filled with winding paths inside the hexes. Well if I counted up the hexes that the path touches it comes out to 13 hexes or 1.625 miles. (the red numbers) Not very close to its true distance. However if I double counted (or even triple count) hexes (the blue numbers) with particularly convoluted paths. Then I get about 17 hexes or 2.125 much closer to the true distance of 2.064 miles.

Like any tool you need to use your best judgement in using this. In this case you need to estimate by sight whenever a convoluted path inside of a hex means you double or triple count it.

Going to reply to a couple of things just cos you have put so much effort in that it deserves a response.
Goign to try and keep everything based on fact and not goign to indluge in ad hominen attacks.
At the end of the day I realise this is futile but meh... so is 90% of human existence so .

So first off I chose this scale of map because it's small. The idea was to show what might happen inside a hex so as to demonstrate that counting hexes was rarely going to give an accurate overal picture. But specifically when a route was complex enough not to be able to use a scale to measure it, this woudl imply that just straight up counting hexes would be hard as well. That was why I chose a mountain route on a small scale map.

I would not have expected someone to impose a micro grid on the map. I can see that you could carry a transparency of a hex grid and use this to estimate distance, woudl of course depend on matching the scales etc but I can see (as in this example) it can be done. The question is why? There is a scale on the map and its there to help you work out distance either by eye or by sectioning the route against an edge.
As I noted previously people that use maps all the time don't use hex maps. If they are the panecea then why don't Ordnace survey publish on hex maps, why don't armies use them or orienteers or anyone apart from gamers (actually I could see a biologist using a hex grid for sampling species diversity etc. Usually they use a square grid in 10x10 so woring out % cover and stuff is easier but I digress ..)

So yes you can produce a grid of a small enough scale to be able to estimate a route on hexes, without a doubt, but why would you go to that much effort? Reading a map and using the scale to measure distance is the first thing you learn in goegraphy class when you are 11. My question was never "what do you use hexes for?" but "why do you bother to use hexes?"
the obvious answer is becuase that is what you are used to which is just another way of saying "tradition".

Quote from: estar;777737And while Indiana University of Pennsylvania is not as prestigious as the oldest university in the UK it has a decent geography department which I happened to minor in while studying for my computer science degree. Aside from personal interest, I was a honors student in high school in geography, I figure it would a practical application for my programming skills. Because programming is a means to an end. To make the computer useful for a particular purpose. In mid 80s computer technology was starting to impact geography in a big way.

Yeah I prolly overstated the academic stuff there. Never my intention to do that just to establish I have a passing familiarity with maps.
I also did some GIS stuff at college so familiar with computers and geography etc.

QuoteWhat I don't see mentioned here or in the proceeding paragraph is that geography is not just about the accurate rendering of the surface of the earth on a flat surface. Geography is also about using maps to convey information. Information that related to geography like population density, traffic patterns, crime, wealth, etc.

I was taught at IUP to understand what information the maps meant to convey and draw it accordingly using best practices for the information that was needed to be displayed.

Actually I have mentionned thsi point at length previously.
My main point was that hexes are a great abstraction for a boardgame or similar where you need to measure distances a lot and move peices or units round a lot and different players are doing it. In this case the abstrations round out and its a good method to compute movement. In an RPG there is no need to do that. RPGs, at least in my experience, are not games in which players are moving lots of peices around a large area. They are games in which, and Phillip notes this far more concisely than I have, the actual geography and how it affects the PCs is a much more important question. A PC may ask "how far is it to King's point from here?" but the answer he gets will be based on so many variables from who he is asking to the nature of his request etc. The answer he gets from a guy that is moving a trade caravan will come in days not miles, the answer from a military general responsible for logisits will be different again.
But the most important thing is the PC probably won't then ask a dozen other questions about a dozen other locations thus forcing the GM to make loads of measurements in a short time.

In short the GM is being asked a small number of questions about distance infrequently and so doesn't need to rely on a hex grid to get answers.

QuoteWhat we are discussing here is the use of geography as it related to gaming a setting within a tabletop roleplaying campaign. A leisure activity. My goal is to make the map as accurate as possible, convey as much information as possible within the constraint that it is being used as tool during a tabletop roleplaying. So it is essential that it is easily and quickly used.

Using what I learned in my geography minor I picked the elements of mapping to create maps that I felt made for excellent gaming references. I guess I am doing something right because people are buying my maps. And I marvel that they are buying my maps despite the fact they don't look like they are drawn by an artist.

The point isn't to map the surface of Greyhawk accurate, the point is to convey the geography of Greyhawk in a way that it is both accurate AND quickly referee by a referee who is bantering with four to eight other individuals around a table.

I have no doubt your maps sell and you have expereince of gaming maps.
I would say that gamers seem to like hex maps. I would go on to say that that comes from tradition, So selling traditional hex maps seems to be a definite market opportunity. No dispute.
The point is are there things you can do with hexes in a roleplay not wargame context, that you can't do with an ordinary map?

QuoteYes the gaming cartographer has to discipline himself not to follow the hex edges. I personally have two mapping styles, one uses hexes and hex system similar Judges Guild Wilderlands. The hex grid influences geography a lot using that style.

The other style was inspired by the map of Harn and that is not influenced by hexes. The maps is drawn first and the hex are overlaid afterwards. This is due the fact I don't use symbols for any terrain or vegetation. Instead I use fills for terrain and color for vegetation which allows me to draw the edge as they would appear in real life.

No arguments here. I would say a lot of maps that use hexes let the hexes have a lot of influence and this gets worse on larger scale maps

QuoteThat is not true. Judges Guild worked out a system to subdivide a hex back in 1977. In the real world you don't use hexes because we are mapping a oblate sphere onto a flat surface. A sphere that is divided into longitude and latitude. So trend is to use grid.

In gaming during the 70s hexes were found to be enormously useful to create playable wargames that accurately measured distance and area. Because this occurred alongside the development of tabletop RPGs it crossed over.

Look up Judges Guild Campaign Hexagon mapping system. It used a series of 5 mile, .2 mile, and 44 foot hexes to created a system of nested hexes that allow mapping from the campaign view down to a local view of a settlement or locale.

I wrote a popular blog spot on the ins and outs of mapping with hexes.
http://batintheattic.blogspot.com/2013/12/more-mapping-with-hexes.html

You miss the point I am not saying its impossible to layer smaller and smaller hexes onto a map. I mean Christaller was doing that for central place theory in the 1920s. My point its that if you have say a 1 KM hex grid with 2 inch hexes you can't easily refer to a specific point in the hex. You can't subdivide it by eye.  the standard grid used on normal maps, the ones that non-gamers use, use 4 and 6 figure grid references. the 4 figure gives you the grid square, the 6 figure gives you the precise spot. Effectively the additional digit on the horizontal and vertical axes divides each grid square into 100 smaller squares. This is simple and intuitive to people in the same way that % are. So 45 78 is okay but 457 782 is far more accurate and easy for people to use. Which is why its the international standard for reading maps.

QuoteTo be blunt you need to pull your head of your academic asshole.  In my opinion your deep knowledge of the topic is leaving you blind to what is useful to the average gamer. You have skills honed by years of academic study and map use, making reading real world maps second nature.

This is not true of the average gamer. They need aides and the right presentation to make a map useful to them for gaming. For what is a leisure activity.

When it comes to making maps for the Ordinance Survey, for the local planning council or for the military, you are the expert. When it comes to making usable and accurate maps for gaming, I been at it continuously for 30 years. Including manufacturing by hand my own maps in the 80s and learning how to use computers to draw maps starting in the 90s. I been selling professionally for the last decade.

Quit using the emotion dodge and own up to the fact that when comes to making maps for gaming you are not the expert in the topic.

Okay, a littler personal and off topic but I will let it slide. I am not an expert I was merely stating a familiarity with maps to avoid the "you know nothing" label.
My point is that the ability to read an ordinary map is not hard. You can teach it to an average 11 year old in 30 minutes.

Yes gamers use hex maps for fantasy games and old school sci fi, yes this comes from the wargame roots of the hobby, yes you are fully steeped in the lore. I have been playing RPGs, since I was 10. The first 'complex" game I got when I was 8 was SPIs War of the Ring with its massive Hex map of Middle Earth. I have a passing familiarity with the genre myself. This doesn't mean that hex maps bring anything more than familiarity to the table when you move from board and war games to RPGs.

You remain emotionally invested, I mean you must have spend ages adding small hex grids measuring distances etc more refusing my point :)

Ask yourself why is it just gamers that use hex maps?
Are they the only people who need to estimate distances on maps?
Are they the only people that use maps for leisure?

Quote from: jibbajibba;778291Ask yourself why is it just gamers that use hex maps?
Are they the only people who need to estimate distances on maps?
Are they the only people that use maps for leisure?

Gamers use Hex maps in many ways specifically because they are roleplaying.  

• If I was an actual general in a wargame I would have better maps, a tent with table to lay it on and tools to measure accurately enough for artillery fire (my troops hope). :D
• If I was a ranger I'd know the lay of the land and be able to navigate by landmarks.
• If I was just a fighter, I might not even have a map, and if I did, it sure wouldn't be all that accurate, and I damn well wouldn't have anything to measure with other then my hand or the width of a dagger.

Since I don't have any of that, a Hex map is a very fast way to measure and estimate distance and movement, as well as terrain.  It's "good enough" on multiple levels.

Why don't non-gamers use hex maps?  Because non-gamers have accurate maps and tools if they need measurements.  Gamers need simple, quick maps that impart multiple pieces of information quickly without doing anything other then counting hexes.

That having been said, I'm not a hex-map guru like Rob and I don't use them frequently, but after seeing the "count a switchback twice" method return such a good result, I may use them more.

Quote from: jibbajibba;778280So first off I chose this scale of map because it's small. The idea was to show what might happen inside a hex so as to demonstrate that counting hexes was rarely going to give an accurate overal picture. But specifically when a route was complex enough not to be able to use a scale to measure it, this woudl imply that just straight up counting hexes would be hard as well. That was why I chose a mountain route on a small scale map.

Your post makes no mention of that. It focus was on the measurement of a winding path and makes no mention of scale or the fact it was in the interior of a hex.  You are moving the goal post.

With that being said larger maps for gaming do have features that exhibit the same problem as the mountain. Rivers are often drawn realistically even with a hex grid. My solution to measuring the mountain trail aide in using larger scale gaming maps.

Quote from: jibbajibba;778280I would not have expected someone to impose a micro grid on the map..

Hex grid are used at various scales. Notably Judge Guild Campaign Hexagon system and the Forgotten Realms.

Quote from: jibbajibba;778280I can see that you could carry a transparency of a hex grid and use this to estimate distance, woudl of course depend on matching the scales etc but I can see (as in this example) it can be done. The question is why? There is a scale on the map and its there to help you work out distance either by eye or by sectioning the route against an edge.

I addressed this before. Eyeballing distance is a skill not everybody possesses in equal measure. Sectioning by ruler is more tedious then counting/double counting hexes.

Quote from: jibbajibba;778280As I noted previously people that use maps all the time don't use hex maps. If they are the panecea then why don't Ordnace survey publish on hex maps, why don't armies use them or orienteers or anyone apart from gamers (actually I could see a biologist using a hex grid for sampling species diversity etc. Usually they use a square grid in 10x10 so woring out % cover and stuff is easier but I digress ..)

Because the standard is to use grids for references as it fits the real world usage of latitude and longitude. For everything else precision is required so they will measure it precisely whether it is for area or distance.

Gaming in contrast is a leisure activity where speed is prized over precision. Hexes were found to be a good compromise in rendering area and distance on gaming maps both for wargaming and tabletop roleplaying. Grids were tried and found to be lacking.

Quote from: jibbajibba;778280So yes you can produce a grid of a small enough scale to be able to estimate a route on hexes, without a doubt, but why would you go to that much effort? Reading a map and using the scale to measure distance is the first thing you learn in geography class when you are 11.

And if you notice most of the kids doing that are using rulers.  Because measuring by sight is a talent not easily used by everybody.

And again there are larger scale features, like rivers, that occasionally needs measuring on a gaming maps. So there is a need to quickly estimate winding distances.  

Quote from: jibbajibba;778280"why do you bother to use hexes?"
the obvious answer is becuase that is what you are used to which is just another way of saying "tradition".

As you said before, you find hexes to be an inferior method of measuring distance on a map. I pointed out their advantage in speed of measurement in ESTIMATING the real distance.

Quote from: jibbajibba;778291In short the GM is being asked a small number of questions about distance infrequently and so doesn't need to rely on a hex grid to get answers.

I never said that hex grid were the only option or always the best option. You stated on several occasions that you viewed hex maps as a inferior tool. My point was and still is that it depends on the individual in question which method of estimating is the superior.

The best way is to be able to sight read a map. That is the quickest and fastest way of estimating. But that not not a common talent. Another method is to use a map wheel. Another is to segment a path with a ruler, a third is to use rectangular grid, and last is the hex grid.  All these methods have associated benefits and limitation. Which one is "best" depends on the individual and what they are comfortable with.

In the real world precision is prized hence the need to teach how to correctly use a scale and measure distance on a map. In gaming speed is what crucial so whatever method that gets a decent estimate that works the FASTEST for an individual is the best methods. Sometimes that hexes and sometimes it another method. For you sight estimate are the way to go. For me it is hexes, for another person using a map wheel, for other rulers.

This is assuming that a good estimate is needed in the first place. If it not then just look at the map use whatever you think it. Don't the make the mistake that just because I can talk in detail about the use hexes that I think they ought to be used all the time by everybody. They are a tool to be used when they work well for the purpose.

What they are not is inferior to all other methods for measuring distances on a gaming map.

Quote from: jibbajibba;778291The point is are there things you can do with hexes in a roleplay not wargame context, that you can't do with an ordinary map?

In terms of capability there is no difference. The difference lies in speed and ease of use in three areas, measurement of distance, land area, and reference. Of the three measuring area is the most dramatic difference in ease of use when it comes to tabletop roleplaying games.

Of course you can use a rectangular grid. But if you are going to impose a grid in the first place for a gaming map then you want to also be able to use it for more than just measuring area. There is no difference between rectangular grids and hexes for reference. But for estimating distances hexes are a superior alternative to rectangular grids. As the grid forms a radius around a central hex.

Quote from: jibbajibba;778291My point its that if you have say a 1 KM hex grid with 2 inch hexes you can't easily refer to a specific point in the hex. You can't subdivide it by eye.

Personally I never had trouble doing that. However having a map with 2 inch hexes in my experience is not good design. Ideally hexes should be between 3/8" and 5/8" of an inch. Big enough so that the grid lines don't obliterate map detail. Small enough so there enough of them to serve as a useful reference.

If you go with abstract terrain symbols like with the Mystara maps you can go down to 3/16". Personally I don't care for that style, but a lot of people are quite happy with it.
 

Quote from: jibbajibba;778291the standard grid used on normal maps, the ones that non-gamers use, use 4 and 6 figure grid references. the 4 figure gives you the grid square, the 6 figure gives you the precise spot. Effectively the additional digit on the horizontal and vertical axes divides each grid square into 100 smaller squares. This is simple and intuitive to people in the same way that % are.

That been tried before, for example Verbosh from Judges Guild, and turned out not be a popular way to go for gaming maps.

Quote from: jibbajibba;778291My point is that the ability to read an ordinary map is not hard. You can teach it to an average 11 year old in 30 minutes.

And my point is that the correct and ordinary way of reading maps is not the fastest method of estimating distances on a map, unless you can do it by sight. Because of that people seek alternatives, a popular alternative is a hex grid.

Quote from: jibbajibba;778291This doesn't mean that hex maps bring anything more than familiarity to the table when you move from board and war games to RPGs.

If that was true then it would just be use hoary old grognards sticking to them. Yet two formats have persisted in tabletop roleplaying. The travelogue map without a grid at varying scales. And maps with the hex grids. The real world grid system you mention gets tried now and again but never gains traction.

Quote from: jibbajibba;778291You remain emotionally invested, I mean you must have spend ages adding small hex grids measuring distances etc more refusing my point :)

Two reasons
One because I like debating on this forum. Part of the reason I participate here.

Two I am noted through, through my blog, for popularizing the hexcrawl setting. I do this not just because I like the format. I do this also because I found I can explain it in way that makes it a useful tool for other. And that is gratifying.  I don't expect everybody to like hexgrids or the hexcrawl format. It has advantage and disadvantage. But once understand, the gamer has another tool to use in dealing with creating a fun and manageable RPG campaign.


As for this conversation I am trying to teach you to why hex grids are a useful tool beyond preference. As a side benefit, teach anybody else reading these post the utility of using hex grid. Whether it of any use is up to them and I recognize that many have other methods of dealing with the issue.

And for my time investment, I been doing this long enough that it doesn't take me long to do anything with mapping and games. Particularly for a small map that only a couple of inches on a side. It took me ten minutes to slap a grid on the map you attached. My skill is NOT typical of gamers.

Part of what I do is find ways to distill what I do into a form that readily usable by a novice and explain why it works that way.

Quote from: jibbajibba;778291Ask yourself why is it just gamers that use hex maps?

That easy. The first stopping point involves the standard methods that are taught in geography. After which then they adapted  to the needs of a particular hobby. And specialized hobbies don't often cross-pollinate each other unless they are closely related. This is because the number of hobbyists are not sufficient to create a set of individual who are involved in both hobbies.

However in academia hexagon have been explored like in this paper. (http://nepis.epa.gov/Adobe/PDF/9100UU8X.PDF). Mostly in the use of displaying geographical data based on area as multiple hexes can conform to a wider variety of shapes than rectangles.

Quote from: estar;778362Your post makes no mention of that. It focus was on the measurement of a winding path and makes no mention of scale or the fact it was in the interior of a hex.  You are moving the goal post.

Agreed I didn't make it clear my fault. I was trying at first to find a hex map with your typical 1 league hex option then find a realistically drawn river and show how hard it would be to use hexes to estimate the distance but nearly all the maps I found on line had the rivers neatly following the bounds of each hex :)

QuoteWith that being said larger maps for gaming do have features that exhibit the same problem as the mountain. Rivers are often drawn realistically even with a hex grid. My solution to measuring the mountain trail aide in using larger scale gaming maps.

Hex grid are used at various scales. Notably Judge Guild Campaign Hexagon system and the Forgotten Realms.

not my point my point in this case. I was trying to explain that subdividing hexes into smaller units is a PitA

QuoteI addressed this before. Eyeballing distance is a skill not everybody possesses in equal measure. Sectioning by ruler is more tedious then counting/double counting hexes.

You don't section with a ruler you use a bit of blank paper you make a start point then section by section you add to the length. Yes its longer than counting hexes (it would take maybe 30 seconds to do the mountain path example) but its not longer than subdividing your large hex into smaller hexes then counting all your hexes, which must have taken you ages.

QuoteBecause the standard is to use grids for references as it fits the real world usage of latitude and longitude. For everything else precision is required so they will measure it precisely whether it is for area or distance.

Gaming in contrast is a leisure activity where speed is prized over precision. Hexes were found to be a good compromise in rendering area and distance on gaming maps both for wargaming and tabletop roleplaying. Grids were tried and found to be lacking.

This is my main driver I guess. You seem obsessed by the speed you can measure distance in for your games. As I noted from the off in wargames and boardgames hexes are great for all the reasons you site, in fact I am building 2 games currently both of which use hex grids, but in an RPG how often do you do that? When the PCs say okay we will head to Shreeport why do you feel the need to immediately work out how far that is? If its more than a day's travel you have as long as you need, maybe hours maybe 4 sessions to work it out.

How come we don't use hex maps for say Vampire games set in NY or Exploring Boot Hill, or finding our way through the swamps that surround Dr No's secret base?

QuoteAnd if you notice most of the kids doing that are using rulers.  Because measuring by sight is a talent not easily used by everybody.

And again there are larger scale features, like rivers, that occasionally needs measuring on a gaming maps. So there is a need to quickly estimate winding distances.  

Not in my classes not if they wanted to get all 30 questions completed in 30 minutes: )
Its not a hard skill its simple to learn.

QuoteAs you said before, you find hexes to be an inferior method of measuring distance on a map. I pointed out their advantage in speed of measurement in ESTIMATING the real distance.

Where you have a scale and you have time using a sectioning method is more accurate. Where you need to be fast measure by eye is pretty quick and accurate enough for any RPG game.
If your distances need to be accurate-ish and where lots of people are guessing and distances can be very important like in a wargame where you maybe move pieces every few minutes Hexes are great. If my RPG games ever get to that point we break out a war game or we abstract the combat.

I mean in D&D for instance you don't even have accurate data for how far stuff can move per hour across wilderness until the wilderness survival guide came out. How does being able to get count hexes to get an accurate-ish distance in 10 seconds when all your movement rates are entirely guess work anyway?

You have been fiddling with these maps for nearly 40 years I am sure you can guestimate a distance by eye to within 10% easily.

Quote from: estar;778387Two reasons
One because I like debating on this forum. Part of the reason I participate here.

Two I am noted through, through my blog, for popularizing the hexcrawl setting. I do this not just because I like the format. I do this also because I found I can explain it in way that makes it a useful tool for other. And that is gratifying.  I don't expect everybody to like hexgrids or the hexcrawl format. It has advantage and disadvantage. But once understand, the gamer has another tool to use in dealing with creating a fun and manageable RPG campaign.


As for this conversation I am trying to teach you to why hex grids are a useful tool beyond preference. As a side benefit, teach anybody else reading these post the utility of using hex grid. Whether it of any use is up to them and I recognize that many have other methods of dealing with the issue.

And for my time investment, I been doing this long enough that it doesn't take me long to do anything with mapping and games. Particularly for a small map that only a couple of inches on a side. It took me ten minutes to slap a grid on the map you attached. My skill is NOT typical of gamers.

Part of what I do is find ways to distill what I do into a form that readily usable by a novice and explain why it works that way.

That I can respect.
My aim is to challenge the accepted norms where I worry that they are accepted simply because... from crappy artwork, to reliance on hex maps to setting inconsistencies.

Quote from: jibbajibba;778291Yeah I prolly overstated the academic stuff there. Never my intention to do that just to establish I have a passing familiarity with maps. I also did some GIS stuff at college so familiar with computers and geography etc.

I have a degree in geography with a concentration in environmental analysis - that included taking every GIS class my uni offered, as well as doing a senior project at the request of the head of the department, to export GIS data to a statistical analysis package and import the data back into the GIS coverages.

One of my GIS projects involved taking rainforest soil data from a professor recently returned from Borneo and using geostatistics - autocorrelation, kriging, &c - to tease out relationships between soil and vegetation cover. The process included taking point data and extrapolating them into polygons for the autocorrelation analysis. My work was good enough to get me a credit on a a half-dozen papers.

I later did GIS analyses of backcountry visitation and regulatory boundaries while working as a ranger in a national park and studied the relationship between grasslands, bird habitat, and trail usage as a state park resource ecologist. I also built a GIS for a single park as a demonstration project.

As far as using maps go, I was a search-and-rescue manager and backcountry ranger, which means I have an uncommon amount of experience using topographic maps for practical purposes like route finding and distance estimation in rugged terrain.

So please believe me when I say you are talking out of your ass.

Quote from: jibbajibba;778390How come we don't use hex maps for say Vampire games set in NY or Exploring Boot Hill . . .

Boot Hill comes with a big hex map of El Dorado County, and the overland movement rates are measured in hexes.

So, y'know, quit while you're fucking behind.

I feel like some of this is missing the forest for the trees, just a bit. All the focus on measuring distance ignores the main advantage I see in subdividing a map, which is that you can then label each space (and then key the map). (KEEPING IN MIND, of course, that the same could be said of squares, etc.) I don't know what kind of scale we're all dealing with, here, but on the local map I use for our Monday AD&D game, there are any number of routes one could take between (say) Waterdeep and the House of Stone, and each intervening hex has pretty specific stuff in it (more than would be convenient to simply label on the map). So the utility of knowing the distance between two points pales, for me, next to the utility of knowing what secondary points you passed on your way there.

By the way the hex maps linked from this page are examples of what I meant by abstracting space and location.

http://save.vs.totalpartykill.ca/grab-bag/