One of my long-time dream campaigns to run is one set in Robert Howard's Thurian Age (the setting for the King Kull stories), interpreted through the assumption that the stories of Howard, Clark Ashton Smith, HP Lovecraft and other authors of that milieu all take place in the same universe. With some downtime in my gaming schedule coming up soon, I'm finally sitting down to put the work on it.

This project will require a huge amount of homebrewing, including entirely reworking the magic system for my chosen game system to make it one that replicates the feel of magic in those S&S/Weird Tales style stories to my satisfaction. One effect the rework is going to have is making the magic available to players much less useful in moment-to-moment gameplay, but I do still want a PC magician to be a viable choice. So I'm thinking a lot about how to give the magic-using characters more useful things they can do that aren't casting spells.

Hence this topic:

Lots of skill-based games include a spellcasting skill of some kind (incantation, spellcraft, occult, etc.), and I'm thinking on alternative uses to which that skill could be put. I think it's pretty standard that it can be used to identify active spells and read magical texts. In some cases I think it can also be used as a limited "detect magic" effect.

One option that occurred to me would be allowing it to be used as a non-magical prestidigitation skill. Essentially doing what the real world we would call "magic tricks". I've read several low-magic games that include something in the flavor text about how most "magicians" you meet in the countryside are just charlatans, but never seen that skill reflected in the rules.

The possibility that intrigues me more is having it be usable as a persuasion skill. A lot of older fantasy fiction depicts wizards as having a kind of nebulous charisma and ability to bend people to their will. The 2d20 Conan system codifies this as a separate magic system called "mesmerism", but I think it's better not to make your magician split their points into a separate skill system for it.

I'd be curious to hear people's thoughts or experiences with this approach, or other potential uses a spellcasting skill could be put to.

For me, the biggest thing a mage might be able to do that isn't casting spells is being able to "see" the magic being worked by others.  Being able to know what spell is about to be used by listening to the incantation or seeing hand gestures could give him and his team mates the edge against magic using enemies and monsters.   He would be able to deduce a lot from looking at the remnants of a ritual.  With some of this knowledge, he might be able to "jam" spells and rituals, not by casting an anti magic spell but by adding or removing elements required for the magic to work.  He could do things like breaking the circle, adding a pinch of sulfur, or just throw a rock at a caster at just the right time to break concentration.

I really like Katherine Kurtz's "The Adept" books, which are modern fantasy.  There's very little actual spellcasting on the part of the good guys, but an awful lot of detective work based on information gathering magical abilities like psychometry, clairvoyance, medium abilities, astral visions, and so on.  And when it's time for action the guns come out.

I know I sound like a broken record about this - but Savage Worlds is built for this.

It already has a very robust selection of "pulp" options, including its own fantastic Hyboria analog called "Beasts and Barbarians".

As far as "Pulp" magic - Savage Worlds uses "powers" as spells. So you can be as discrete as you'd like, there is a huge list of powers, including ritual magic to produce larger effects which is perfect for the genre if only to scare the shit out of your players with larger effects (or the threat of potential larger effects).

Savage Worlds started as a "pulp" system, but now there are so many options you can tune it up/down/sideways to emulate nearly any genre with pretty good-to-excellent verisimilitude.

Lemuria? Hyboria? Savage Worlds devours that stuff.

For non-Savage Worlds options - I'd check out Barbarians of Lemura (naturally), or OpenD6 if you're in the mood to customize from the ground up.

Quote from: tenbones on August 19, 2024, 10:48:25 AMI know I sound like a broken record about this - but Savage Worlds is built for this.

It already has a very robust selection of "pulp" options, including its own fantastic Hyboria analog called "Beasts and Barbarians".

As far as "Pulp" magic - Savage Worlds uses "powers" as spells. So you can be as discrete as you'd like, there is a huge list of powers, including ritual magic to produce larger effects which is perfect for the genre if only to scare the shit out of your players with larger effects (or the threat of potential larger effects).

Savage Worlds started as a "pulp" system, but now there are so many options you can tune it up/down/sideways to emulate nearly any genre with pretty good-to-excellent verisimilitude.

Lemuria? Hyboria? Savage Worlds devours that stuff.

For non-Savage Worlds options - I'd check out Barbarians of Lemura (naturally), or OpenD6 if you're in the mood to customize from the ground up.

We're thinking on similar lines here. My top contenders for a system for this are Barbarians of Lemuria, D6 Fantasy, SWADE and Warlock!. At present I'm leaning towards Warlock!, since it has the simplest magic system, and one which is largely separate from the rest of the game, so I should be able to mess with it without too many knock-on effects.

We've talked similar ideas before.  My approach is to carve out a few areas in the mundane, or at least quasi-magical areas, that overlap with the magic skills.  That is, in the setting, there are clearly mundane things, clearly magical things, and some that sit on the boundary.

For example, in my setting, there is the Primeval tradition of magic, which has a skill associated with it. However, Primeval gets used for things other than magic, such as many of the "nature" checks.  These checks include activities that would be mundane in the setting and in our world, but also include some checks that are mundane in the setting but fantastical in our world.  Thus "quasi magical". 

A character could have considerable Primeval skill and not be a caster at all, and still get some good use out of it.  I do use such skills for "detect magic" and even a modicum of "analyze magic".  So that skews into the quasi magical side as well.

Finally, I treat charged magical items two different ways, depending on the item. Some such items have the spell fully functional in the item, but you need the correct skill to use the charge.  Anyone with the skill can "cast" the magic in the item.  Other such items have the spell partially functional in the item. It makes casting the magic easier or gives it some other bonus, but to use those items, you need the skill and your own ability to cast spells. 

Sometimes wall of force is a waste and all you really need is dinner-plate of force and only for two rounds.

Depending on your world, the "spellcasting" skill could work like a deep understanding of "physical sciences" IRL. IOW, if magic is the natural forces of the fantasy world, and spellcasting is how to exploit them, then it stands to reason that such an ability requires the understanding of what is already happening.

Likewise, "spellcasting" might be a social skill with Outsiders/Demons/Undead/Elmentals and such where they don't care how charming you are but are rather moved by your ability to interpret and produce the right magical impulses.

Quote from: ForgottenF on August 19, 2024, 12:04:21 PMWe're thinking on similar lines here. My top contenders for a system for this are Barbarians of Lemuria, D6 Fantasy, SWADE and Warlock!. At present I'm leaning towards Warlock!, since it has the simplest magic system, and one which is largely separate from the rest of the game, so I should be able to mess with it without too many knock-on effects.

I'm not familiar with Warlock! (I'll check it out). But the primary reason why I suggest SWADE is simply because the game is so goddamn complete right now. You can keep it ***really*** simple - simple skill-die and d6 and 4 or higher = success.

Or if you want to tune it up - you have nearly unlimited vertical power-levels. The great draw of Savage Worlds is not just its simplicity, but it's scaling and options that add relatively very little overhead to that simplicity.

My problem is I'm running Savage Rifts, which is about as high-octane as it gets, I'd *kill* to just run a simple pulp fantasy game. Once you grok the system it becomes super-easy to run on the fly, and any prep you need to do is trivial.

Barbarians of Lemuria is awesome simply because it does its thing with great fidelity with zero need to adjust. Savage Worlds can match it and more - but it takes a *little* bit of tweaking to your tastes, but that's easy to do at the pulp power level.

Quote from: tenbones on August 20, 2024, 10:40:58 AM'm not familiar with Warlock! (I'll check it out). But the primary reason why I suggest SWADE is simply because the game is so goddamn complete right now. You can keep it ***really*** simple - simple skill-die and d6 and 4 or higher = success.

Warlock! is supposed to be a stripped down cross between Advanced Fighting Fantasy and WFRP. I dunno about that. It's a D20+skill mod system with a standard target of 20, There's some cross over with both Savage Worlds and the Omni System, just with a Warhammer-style profession system for progression. Based on the other games you like, you'd probably dig it.

The completeness of SWADE is both a pro and a con for me. Ditto with D6. I'd really like to move my gaming to one of the universal systems. If I can pick one and get my players used to it, I can just use that for everything going forward. At the same time, those systems look like they'd take more a lot more work to homebrew for this particular setting.

EDIT: Beasts and Barbarians does look like fun, but I think if I was going to run it I'd run it as is, rather than use it for another setting.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on August 19, 2024, 12:38:52 PMWe've talked similar ideas before.  My approach is to carve out a few areas in the mundane, or at least quasi-magical areas, that overlap with the magic skills.  That is, in the setting, there are clearly mundane things, clearly magical things, and some that sit on the boundary.

For example, in my setting, there is the Primeval tradition of magic, which has a skill associated with it. However, Primeval gets used for things other than magic, such as many of the "nature" checks.  These checks include activities that would be mundane in the setting and in our world, but also include some checks that are mundane in the setting but fantastical in our world.  Thus "quasi magical". 

That bears some thinking about. For this setting, I want to lean into the Lovecraftian angle of "magic" being essentially the primitive's way of understanding hyper-advanced science. Maybe there's an angle there to exploit with the skill being used to access higher consciousness and perceive the substrata of reality or something.