I'm wondering if anyone else has tried this with MSH (FASERIP).

Dodge/Parry

Instead of the normal dodge presented in the rules, the character may dodge as a reaction to a successful incoming attack.  The character then makes an Agility or Fighting FEAT check.  If the color result of the check is equal to or better than that of the attack roll, then the character evades the attack.  Regardless of the success or failure of the dodge/parry, the character is -2CS on the next attack or FEAT roll.

Agility can only be used in response to ranged attacks.  Fighting can only be used against melee attacks.  Some powers are effective for both, such as Spider-Man's Spider Sense power.

I'd think that the existing Dodge rule could be used in tandem with this by eliminating the capability to perform an attack at -2CS with that version of the action and thinking of it as a full defense.

Quote from: Gabriel2;1044988I'd think that the existing Dodge rule could be used in tandem with this by eliminating the capability to perform an attack at -2CS with that version of the action and thinking of it as a full defense.

Your version of dodge is a hell of a lot more powerful than the standard MSH dodge, so why would you cripple the standard dodge further and call it a full defense?

More generally, MSH isn't structured around reacting to specific attacks. The active part of your character's defense is built into Health (Spidey gets +50 Health to account for dodging all those blows), and defensive actions are more states than specific counters -- i.e. you don't roll to dodge a specific blow, instead you spend the entire turn dodging, which gives a fixed penalty to anyone who tries to attack. If you really want to restructure the game so characters can react to specific attacks, you should remove fighting/agility from health, and redo all the defensive actions (including block).

Quote from: Pat;1045006Your version of dodge is a hell of a lot more powerful than the standard MSH dodge, so why would you cripple the standard dodge further and call it a full defense?

More generally, MSH isn't structured around reacting to specific attacks. The active part of your character's defense is built into Health (Spidey gets +50 Health to account for dodging all those blows), and defensive actions are more states than specific counters -- i.e. you don't roll to dodge a specific blow, instead you spend the entire turn dodging, which gives a fixed penalty to anyone who tries to attack. If you really want to restructure the game so characters can react to specific attacks, you should remove fighting/agility from health, and redo all the defensive actions (including block).

I agree with the evaluation that it's more powerful.  Back when I regularly ran MSH Advanced, no one ever used the Dodge action because it was perceived as too weak.  

Now, at the time we were using the original set version of the rule, where you had to declare Dodge before knowing what opponents were about to do and before initiative, and taking the dodge action meant you couldn't move or attack at all.  Advanced set improves this somewhat, by allowing the dodge action to be declared as a reaction at the beginning of the turn after getting some info but still before initiative while also still allowing an attack at -2CS or movement at half speed.  Still, I haven't found the original dodge as written in either to be particularly useful as a manuever.

As for depowering the original version of the dodge, I'm mostly keeping it as it is.  I'm trying to make it something which can be used in tandem with the new option.  So a character on full defense could use the old rule, get the column shift, and then still get the new reaction version.  Of course, the price would be not getting to act at all that turn.  

As for the Agility being factored into the Health score, I see where you're coming from, but I don't agree with that.  I feel that the FASE total for HP does fairly accurately simulate the toughness of the characters in the comics.  However, I feel that the Agility component of that total doesn't really represent the dodging out of the way.  I feel that it more just represents the overall fitness and health of the character in it's role in the Health pool.  I feel the generally balance of toughness is correct when FASE is totalled.  Removing a component would just unbalance things and damage a generally on target simulation.

I feel that dodge lacks a level of interaction and participation.  Having Spider-Man say "I'm dodging" at the beginning of the turn and then get a -2CS on attacks against him doesn't simulate the kind of active things I see on the comics page.  Making dodge a reaction to the attack itself and a kind of opposed roll against that attack seems more in line with what I see on the page.  I think it makes Spider-Man (or any other similar character) seem more active and involved and DOING STUFF.

I'm just using Spider-Man as the easiest example.  It really applies to a lot of characters who aren't tanks.

I don't know, I can't think of very often in comics I've read where characters ever go on full defense.  The only scenarios I can think of are times where a character is trying to kite an enemy into another situation or distract while other teammates work on a big attack.  And I think the weak full dodge combined with the powerful reaction dodge simulates this a bit.  A player would normally rely on the react dodge, and would only use the full dodge in certain circumstances where they were trying to squeeze every last ounce of defense out.

That's my attempt at explaining my reasoning.  Thoughts?

A different and more accurate way to look at it is like this...

RAI - The purpose of the combat round is to simulate a panel in the comics. Not to be a combat-simulation of going tit-for-tat which is what you're trying to do (which is fine - but it definitely changes a LOT of things).

RAW - I agree, to a point that Dodge is perceptibly weak but in reality it allows you *some* defense while still being able to attack, as opposed to Evade which costs you all your actions except moving 1-area. At the low-end of the fighting spectrum Dodge is quite powerful. At the higher end - it's SUPPOSED to help the attacker because they're manifestly better fighters.

There is a common issue of people being statted with fighting IN(40) or higher, and this is a really high-level of fighting. Anyone in Marvel with a skill rating that high shouldn't be missing very often regardless. That is why Evasion exists. Spiderman is using his Combat Sense to evade like crazy until he wins Initiative (where those Evasion bonuses come in handy against his opponent) and he then he strikes. Think about it - Spiderman is *always* bouncing around. He's probably Dodging by default and when he knows he doesn't want to be hit (he has no Body Armor after all) he simply calls out an Evade. So panel-by-panel (round-by-round) people are missing him non-stop. Until he wins Initiative - which assuming he's rolled well on his Evade, he should be rocking some bonuses.

HOWEVER, there are some houserules you can do to get some "verisimilitude" for the genre into your play.

1) You could say that for every CS difference between an opponents Fighting and the Defender's Agility counts as a -1CS to hit naturally.

2) You could say that if you reduce your attackers Attack check to below Shift-0 via a good Dodge roll, Environmental factors etc. It lowers the Color Shift cap by 1. This means that let's say Spiderman rolls a Red Dodge - that's -6CS. And you're in poor light, another -1CS. That's -7CS total and your attacker has RM(30) Fighting/Agility (if ranged attack). That means they would need to roll a 95 just to get a GREEN result. To me, that captures the ridiculous agility of Spiderman and people with high Agility very nicely. This will make combat take longer. But hey! it's supers!

3) You could allow for multiple Evades in a round (but they still cost an action - so you'll have to make a Multiple action check). This might give you some flexibility in terms of being more cagey and defensive. This makes high-Fighting score characters *very* dangerous.

4) You can add other possibilities - like Sidestep. Which lets you use your Fighting score to "Dodge". Dive - which lets you use your Agility to Evade. This brings out some flexibility in characters heavily weighted to one stat or another.

5) ALL OF THE ABOVE.

Quote from: Gabriel2;1045012I agree with the evaluation that it's more powerful.  Back when I regularly ran MSH Advanced, no one ever used the Dodge action because it was perceived as too weak.  

Now, at the time we were using the original set version of the rule, where you had to declare Dodge before knowing what opponents were about to do and before initiative, and taking the dodge action meant you couldn't move or attack at all.  Advanced set improves this somewhat, by allowing the dodge action to be declared as a reaction at the beginning of the turn after getting some info but still before initiative while also still allowing an attack at -2CS or movement at half speed.  Still, I haven't found the original dodge as written in either to be particularly useful as a manuever.

As for depowering the original version of the dodge, I'm mostly keeping it as it is.  I'm trying to make it something which can be used in tandem with the new option.  So a character on full defense could use the old rule, get the column shift, and then still get the new reaction version.  Of course, the price would be not getting to act at all that turn.  

As for the Agility being factored into the Health score, I see where you're coming from, but I don't agree with that.  I feel that the FASE total for HP does fairly accurately simulate the toughness of the characters in the comics.  However, I feel that the Agility component of that total doesn't really represent the dodging out of the way.  I feel that it more just represents the overall fitness and health of the character in it's role in the Health pool.  I feel the generally balance of toughness is correct when FASE is totalled.  Removing a component would just unbalance things and damage a generally on target simulation.

I feel that dodge lacks a level of interaction and participation.  Having Spider-Man say "I'm dodging" at the beginning of the turn and then get a -2CS on attacks against him doesn't simulate the kind of active things I see on the comics page.  Making dodge a reaction to the attack itself and a kind of opposed roll against that attack seems more in line with what I see on the page.  I think it makes Spider-Man (or any other similar character) seem more active and involved and DOING STUFF.

I'm just using Spider-Man as the easiest example.  It really applies to a lot of characters who aren't tanks.

I don't know, I can't think of very often in comics I've read where characters ever go on full defense.  The only scenarios I can think of are times where a character is trying to kite an enemy into another situation or distract while other teammates work on a big attack.  And I think the weak full dodge combined with the powerful reaction dodge simulates this a bit.  A player would normally rely on the react dodge, and would only use the full dodge in certain circumstances where they were trying to squeeze every last ounce of defense out.

That's my attempt at explaining my reasoning.  Thoughts?

If you don't remove Fighting and Agility from Health, you're double-dipping those two stats, and penalizing Strength and Endurance. Think of it this way -- a bruiser with high Strength or Endurance is supposed to be tough, right? But MSH doesn't have rules for soaking damage, so a character with a Strength In (40) and Endurance In (40) isn't any more resistant to bullets or punches than someone with Ty (6) Strength and Endurance (there are some advantages when wrestling or against disease, but those are very specific). The only thing that makes the bruiser tougher is the extra +80 Health from Strength and Endurance. But Fighting and Agility do the same thing, and if they can also be used to negate stats, you're making bricks wimpy.

I agree that dodging is weak, but I think that's a feature not a flaw. You're right that dodging is rarely used in the comics, and that's exactly what MSH is emulating. In the panel-by-panel action of comics, heroes are supposed to be the protagonists, the drivers of action. They don't just stand there trading blows, or dodging forever. They do something, trying different tricks or stunts, using the environment in creative ways, and so on. That's what heroes are supposed to do in the game, as well. You're not supposed to have your hero sit on their butt and play defense, you're supposed be wild and creative and come up with different options and spins. The game is deliberating encouraging that kind of go-getter action and penalizing being passive. Dodging is really for NPCs, or when there are no other options. You can even see it in the way the dodge action is written -- it's not a reactive power, that activates and gives you a chance to respond to specific attacks. Instead, it's basically wallpaper. Roll once, get a fixed modifier, and that's how much harder you are to hit.

Quote from: tenbones;1045035There is a common issue of people being statted with fighting IN(40) or higher, and this is a really high-level of fighting. Anyone in Marvel with a skill rating that high shouldn't be missing very often regardless. That is why Evasion exists. Spiderman is using his Combat Sense to evade like crazy until he wins Initiative (where those Evasion bonuses come in handy against his opponent) and he then he strikes. Think about it - Spiderman is *always* bouncing around. He's probably Dodging by default and when he knows he doesn't want to be hit (he has no Body Armor after all) he simply calls out an Evade. So panel-by-panel (round-by-round) people are missing him non-stop. Until he wins Initiative - which assuming he's rolled well on his Evade, he should be rocking some bonuses.

Minor clarification/re-emphasis: It's not the attack roll. Whether an attack hits is based on the attacker's abilities, not the defender's. Unless someone is doing an all-out dodge, it's just as easy for someone to score a hit on Spidey with his Am (50) Agility as it is to score a hit on Aunt May with her Pr (4) Agility.

The difference is Spidey has +50 Health from his Agility, and Aunt May only has +4. Spidey bouncing around all the time and avoiding most damage is assumed by the game, but it isn't emulated by the attack roll, but by Health. MSH is not a game of opposing rolls, it's a game of resource management and ablative Health and Karma.

I've typed up a few responses.  I've deleted them because they seem like I'm arguing the point instead of accepting the advice and considering it.  

I think my takeaway at this point is the idea that MSH/FASERIP was not really built for the kind of thing I'm after.  I can hack it in, but there are definitely other methods to consider as to how to hack it in.

Opposed rolls is my hammer, and everything looks like a nail.

Quote from: Gabriel2;1045149I've typed up a few responses.  I've deleted them because they seem like I'm arguing the point instead of accepting the advice and considering it.  

I think my takeaway at this point is the idea that MSH/FASERIP was not really built for the kind of thing I'm after.  I can hack it in, but there are definitely other methods to consider as to how to hack it in.

Opposed rolls is my hammer, and everything looks like a nail.

No way man! Let'er rip. I've done the exact thing you've done too. It can work. It just means you might have some unforseen things you'll need to tweek.

Aside from Pat's point about Health, which I think is a non-issue because of Comic-logic (it's the "what is HP" debate), you'll have to figure out ways to make Dodge either be more useful, or you fold it into Evade. Or you figure out the tempo of your fights with multiple attacks.

If you look at my propositions above - I've found the real lynchpin is around Initiative itself. You *are* doing opposed rolls with the Evade mechanic (and I've house-ruled Dive - which is 'Evade' for ranged attacks) - you're spending your actions for the round to not be hit against someone while jockeying for a better position (+CS on next attack against that opponent), alongside houserules for Multiple Evades/Dives based on making a Multiple Attack checks. So this makes the game MUCH more tactical and still feel like a Comic-Panel.

And I do this while keeping the Dodge Rules in place.

If you're wanting tic-tac opposed rolls, you'll have to make things a lot more granular. It can be done.

Quote from: Pat;1045070The difference is Spidey has +50 Health from his Agility, and Aunt May only has +4. Spidey bouncing around all the time and avoiding most damage is assumed by the game, but it isn't emulated by the attack roll, but by Health. MSH is not a game of opposing rolls, it's a game of resource management and ablative Health and Karma.

This deserves it's own response

Over the decades I've been running this game, I've come to the conclusion that health is just health. I don't abstract it further than that. And here's why. 9/10 it's rarely health that ends fights in MSH for me. It's almost *always* a Stun or Kill result. This is why the abstraction of regular firearms is so often missed - people see the relatively weak damage of firearms and most edged weapons and they miss the real danger of them: Stuns and Kill results. It doesn't matter whether you have 1000-health or 24-health, if you can land a Stun or Kill and make it stick, it's a huge change in the tide of battle (if not something that ends it).

So using your example - sure Spidey has +50 Health, but if Aunt May pops him with a .38 and gets a Red result, or a Yellow result or better with her butter-knife, she can drop Spiderman, at least temporarily. It's not *all* about health, though health *is* a factor.

This is why those conditional attacks are so important. Health certainly isn't the final arbiter in MSH. It's a factor, but it's less of a factor than these other mechanics.

Edit: it also depends on on detailed you are with your setting conceits. I'm big on environmental factors. I let my players use the environment to their heart's content. But I do it too. Slamming people straight down into the ground for a little extra damage because the pavement is thick, sounds like a good tactical move... until you find out there is a gas-main or electrical trunk underneath...

Quote from: Gabriel2;1045149I've typed up a few responses.  I've deleted them because they seem like I'm arguing the point instead of accepting the advice and considering it.  

I think my takeaway at this point is the idea that MSH/FASERIP was not really built for the kind of thing I'm after.  I can hack it in, but there are definitely other methods to consider as to how to hack it in.

Opposed rolls is my hammer, and everything looks like a nail.

While the MSH RPG is a remarkably coherent piece of design, that doesn't mean your game has to be. That's mostly what I've been trying to express -- not that you have to do it that way, but that it was a designed in a particular way for a particular reason. It does help to know how and why the pieces go together, when you're hacking the rules.

Quote from: tenbones;1045185This deserves it's own response

Over the decades I've been running this game, I've come to the conclusion that health is just health. I don't abstract it further than that. And here's why. 9/10 it's rarely health that ends fights in MSH for me. It's almost *always* a Stun or Kill result. This is why the abstraction of regular firearms is so often missed - people see the relatively weak damage of firearms and most edged weapons and they miss the real danger of them: Stuns and Kill results. It doesn't matter whether you have 1000-health or 24-health, if you can land a Stun or Kill and make it stick, it's a huge change in the tide of battle (if not something that ends it).

So using your example - sure Spidey has +50 Health, but if Aunt May pops him with a .38 and gets a Red result, or a Yellow result or better with her butter-knife, she can drop Spiderman, at least temporarily. It's not *all* about health, though health *is* a factor.

This is why those conditional attacks are so important. Health certainly isn't the final arbiter in MSH. It's a factor, but it's less of a factor than these other mechanics.

Edit: it also depends on on detailed you are with your setting conceits. I'm big on environmental factors. I let my players use the environment to their heart's content. But I do it too. Slamming people straight down into the ground for a little extra damage because the pavement is thick, sounds like a good tactical move... until you find out there is a gas-main or electrical trunk underneath...

When I'm narrating hits in MSH, I try to remember that Health isn't just Health, but Fighting + Agility + Strength + Endurance. The Thing smacking Spidey for 75 damage may be force against force, with Spidey soaking it up because he's actually fairly tough, but he might have rolled out of the way as well.

I both agree and don't agree with your assessment of how characters go down. It's true that anyone with human ordinary strength, like most of the gun bunnies and martial artists, will never take down a serious foe by just punching, because 6 or 10 points of damage adds up to almost nothing. Even using melee weapons or regular firearms doesn't change this, very much. Heck, even mooks are way too tough. A typical thug or cop can easily survive half a dozen turns. But ranks are also highly variable -- Spidey does four times as much damage as Daredevil with a fist, Wondy does 10 times as much, and the high Endurance characters can always charge. But once you pass the hump into low-tier superhuman strength, foes fall more quickly, particularly when you're not facing one of the stat-gods, like Spidey or Thor (or even Cap). Same is true with blasters, as long as they have an In (40) or so power. But yes, otherwise the default mechanical option is to ping away for tiny amounts of damage waiting for one of those special results. But I rarely see that happen -- IME, most Daredevil-types tend to try creative tricks or even formal power stunts of various sorts, most of the time. Tripping or luring someone can be more effective than ping ping ping goes the baton.

One of the reasons I love MSH is all the maps. It can be hard to imagine all the props lying around from a simple verbal description, and it requires very arbitrary judgment calls on the referee's part to decide "uh sure, there's a bike". But with a map, you can see lampposts and machinery and subway entrances, and interact with it. You also know exactly where things are, without having to ask.

But that's one area where MSH is lacking a bit, as well. Because while the maps are useful, they don't have everything. You won't see a bike, or a gas main. Which means if the GM decides to have everything blow up because you punched a car through the pavement into a gas line, it can feel a bit unfair. That's actually one of the things I really like about MSH's successor, Mshag -- the referee plays a card each round, with an event. Which both inspires the GM to come up with some kind of creative result or side effect linked to the event, and takes away that sting of unfairness because the card gives permission for a sudden explosion.

Quote from: Pat;1045194While the MSH RPG is a remarkably coherent piece of design, that doesn't mean your game has to be. That's mostly what I've been trying to express -- not that you have to do it that way, but that it was a designed in a particular way for a particular reason. It does help to know how and why the pieces go together, when you're hacking the rules.

Yep! that's why we're here to help! heh

Quote from: Pat;1045194When I'm narrating hits in MSH, I try to remember that Health isn't just Health, but Fighting + Agility + Strength + Endurance. The Thing smacking Spidey for 75 damage may be force against force, with Spidey soaking it up because he's actually fairly tough, but he might have rolled out of the way as well.

Sure. I used to think like that too - habit from my D&D upbringing. I found the problem is the conceits of comics don't match my inner-narrative of my older views on D&D HP. This has changed for me over time, as I like my fantasy to be a little over-the-top and super-heroey. I mean there is nothing wrong with describing that narratively in game. I think it's self-apparent as Spidey is clearly up and not down for the count.

Because of the range of abstraction I'm pretty strict about making my players understand what visual queues can signify how hard their hit actually affected their target, especially the more powerful your PC's are, its *painfully* easy to outright kill a normie without realizing it.

Quote from: Pat;1045194I both agree and don't agree with your assessment of how characters go down. It's true that anyone with human ordinary strength, like most of the gun bunnies and martial artists, will never take down a serious foe by just punching, because 6 or 10 points of damage adds up to almost nothing. Even using melee weapons or regular firearms doesn't change this, very much. Heck, even mooks are way too tough. A typical thug or cop can easily survive half a dozen turns.

This is precisely why I say that Health alone isn't the demarcation for combat. It's a factor. The reality is you'll drop someone the moment they take a hard shot and blow their Endurance check. Whether you do it by a Stun or Kill (remember - a Yellow Endurance check against a Kill is still an Endurance Rank loss which is an automatic Stun) still determines the final outcome of a fight. In my experience it's almost 60%, conservatively, the case.

And I could probably go as high at 70% of the time. This is why I went down the same trail as the OP - it became apparent how important not getting hit at all was factoring into the mechanics of gameplay while still holding on to the verisimilitude of comic-logic.

Quote from: Pat;1045194But ranks are also highly variable -- Spidey does four times as much damage as Daredevil with a fist, Wondy does 10 times as much, and the high Endurance characters can always charge. But once you pass the hump into low-tier superhuman strength, foes fall more quickly, particularly when you're not facing one of the stat-gods, like Spidey or Thor (or even Cap). Same is true with blasters, as long as they have an In (40) or so power. But yes, otherwise the default mechanical option is to ping away for tiny amounts of damage waiting for one of those special results. But I rarely see that happen -- IME, most Daredevil-types tend to try creative tricks or even formal power stunts of various sorts, most of the time. Tripping or luring someone can be more effective than ping ping ping goes the baton.

Spot on. I tend to GM my MSH games around Avenger's level (Spiderman-power+). And one of my favorite things to do is pit my players against lower-tiered villains that work as a team to use the established mechanics and environment to *really* push my Players beyond their expectations. It makes them better players, and it makes the characters that much more believable when dealing with larger-scale threats in appropriately clever ways.

I had a couple of PC's that were powerful (One was essentially the Guyver - like Wolverine and Spiderman with Bodyarmor, the other was MN(75) Radiation control/generation) - very powerful, indeed - and I have giving them problems for several sessions dealing with Kingpin's cadre of elite assassins (Bullseye, Elektra, Boomerang, and a couple of other "skill-monkeys"). I actually had them on the ropes using every trick I could think of in the book, when finally one of the other players got tired of watching his fellow team-mates who by any other reason should have wiped the floor with them and this whole sub-plot many sessions ago, do this -

"Ten, I establish a telepathic link with Bullseye, Elektra and Boomerang (it's stunt he had - he's a AM(50) telepath with UN(100) Cosmic Awareness). Round 1 done. Round 2 - I use my Mind Probe stunt to find all known contacts within Kingpin's immediate organization. Done. Round 3 - if they're in range - I establish a telepathic link to all of those contacts including Kingpin. Done. RP time - Kingpin, you've been a thorn in our side for some time. You claim you value information as a vital resource, I'm going to give you some free of charge. Stunt: I confer to them the grandeur of Cosmic Awareness at Unearthly levels..."

And in one fell swoop - every person associated with Kingpin's crime syndicate within the greater NYC area suddenly became overwhelmed by the immensity of reality and their very very tiny place in it. Since none of them have Cosmic Awareness - they have none of the inherent protections conveyed to them by the power, my player reasoned, thus... he left it up to me to decide the narrative effects. Win/win. Brilliant strategy and tactic.

Quote from: Pat;1045194One of the reasons I love MSH is all the maps. It can be hard to imagine all the props lying around from a simple verbal description, and it requires very arbitrary judgment calls on the referee's part to decide "uh sure, there's a bike". But with a map, you can see lampposts and machinery and subway entrances, and interact with it. You also know exactly where things are, without having to ask.

But that's one area where MSH is lacking a bit, as well. Because while the maps are useful, they don't have everything. You won't see a bike, or a gas main. Which means if the GM decides to have everything blow up because you punched a car through the pavement into a gas line, it can feel a bit unfair. That's actually one of the things I really like about MSH's successor, Mshag -- the referee plays a card each round, with an event. Which both inspires the GM to come up with some kind of creative result or side effect linked to the event, and takes away that sting of unfairness because the card gives permission for a sudden explosion.

Yeah well, you know, you do this for a while and as a GM you can get pretty good at giving players an idea of what's around them environmentally - and you know, they too can always ask as a suggestion. I happen to be *really* good at responding to the "What's in the box" type questions. Decades of random tables have imprinted on my mind.

Quote from: tenbones;1045208Sure. I used to think like that too - habit from my D&D upbringing. I found the problem is the conceits of comics don't match my inner-narrative of my older views on D&D HP. This has changed for me over time, as I like my fantasy to be a little over-the-top and super-heroey. I mean there is nothing wrong with describing that narratively in game. I think it's self-apparent as Spidey is clearly up and not down for the count.

D&D hit points and MSH health aren't the same, but they're close. Hit points are a combination of physical damage, and intangible fighting spirit/heroism/skill/fatigue/etc. As characters go up in levels more and more of the damage becomes virtual, but there's always a physical component, even it's only a scratch (otherwise, poison makes no sense). Health is similar, except we have a more explicit divide for each character. If most of a bruiser's health comes from Strength and Endurance, most of the hits the bruiser takes will be pretty punishing, either blocked by raw strength or absorbed by raw toughness. But if someone is a skill monkey with most of their health in Fighting and Agility, then damage taken will typically involve evasion by skill or speed. Worn down by being beaten up, as opposed to worn down by being tired out and becoming sloppy.

Quote from: tenbones;1045208Yeah well, you know, you do this for a while and as a GM you can get pretty good at giving players an idea of what's around them environmentally - and you know, they too can always ask as a suggestion. I happen to be *really* good at responding to the "What's in the box" type questions. Decades of random tables have imprinted on my mind.

I'm very good at improvisation, but a lot of players aren't. And I find props, like maps, are one of the best tools to get them to engage with the environment.

My bigger issue is generally the mother-may-I aspect -- the GM-player interface is low bandwidth, with the GM describing the situation and the players responding using short verbal descriptions. The descriptions only hit the highlights; there's a lot more going on in a city street than can be covered in two sentences. So there are all kinds of potential props and background elements the PCs can potentially engage with, but they exist in a nebulous Schroedinger's state, not resolving into a concrete there/not there state until a player asks and the GM says nay or okay.

Quote from: Pat;1045332D&D hit points and MSH health aren't the same, but they're close. Hit points are a combination of physical damage, and intangible fighting spirit/heroism/skill/fatigue/etc. As characters go up in levels more and more of the damage becomes virtual, but there's always a physical component, even it's only a scratch (otherwise, poison makes no sense). Health is similar, except we have a more explicit divide for each character. If most of a bruiser's health comes from Strength and Endurance, most of the hits the bruiser takes will be pretty punishing, either blocked by raw strength or absorbed by raw toughness. But if someone is a skill monkey with most of their health in Fighting and Agility, then damage taken will typically involve evasion by skill or speed. Worn down by being beaten up, as opposed to worn down by being tired out and becoming sloppy.


I'm very good at improvisation, but a lot of players aren't. And I find props, like maps, are one of the best tools to get them to engage with the environment.

My bigger issue is generally the mother-may-I aspect -- the GM-player interface is low bandwidth, with the GM describing the situation and the players responding using short verbal descriptions. The descriptions only hit the highlights; there's a lot more going on in a city street than can be covered in two sentences. So there are all kinds of potential props and background elements the PCs can potentially engage with, but they exist in a nebulous Schroedinger's state, not resolving into a concrete there/not there state until a player asks and the GM says nay or okay.

I'm not debating with your assessment on health. I'm saying that your observation plays out *regardless*. It's simply a matter of GM narrative that gives it the gravity and taste to your desire. So sure. The mechanical reality I've seen time and time again - it's conditional values of powers, gear, attack-methods that end fights (or begin the inevitable turn of the tide) that matter equally, if not more.

I've taken Captain America and put the holy ass-kicking on down on my PC's whose powers are perceived (correctly) to be nearly immeasurably more powerful in terms of raw capacity. But you know having effective Shift-X Fighting with a Class-3000 material strength shield that can effectively do Edged or Blunt attacks (depends on the writeup) makes Cap incredibly dangerous and underestimated.

The point being that I'm saying we can all have our cake and eat the fuck out of it without any of us not getting what we want. The system handles all this stuff with surprising ease. Your point about health, is totally true. But fortunately it doesn't really require any mechanical tweaks to implement - just self-awareness as a GM (which is something all GM's could use regardless of the system).

It's hard to work around if your players are stuck in that mode (as you obviously understand). Maybe this could be resolved with a table of "random environmental objects" - and break the tables out based on specific settings - Offices, street corners, markets etc. And include maybe some environmental big-ticket possibilities. I believe in the City boxset they cover a lot of this stuff by implication. Like city trunk lines have MN(75) levels of electrical current. Gas main explosions etc.

Thoughts?

Quote from: tenbones;1045396I'm not debating with your assessment on health.

Didn't think you were. We haven't really been debating as much as expanding on our own ideas and impressions, and sharing experiences. Though I will say that if anyone thinks Cap is weak, they haven't looked at his stats.

Quote from: tenbones;1045396It's hard to work around if your players are stuck in that mode (as you obviously understand). Maybe this could be resolved with a table of "random environmental objects" - and break the tables out based on specific settings - Offices, street corners, markets etc. And include maybe some environmental big-ticket possibilities. I believe in the City boxset they cover a lot of this stuff by implication. Like city trunk lines have MN(75) levels of electrical current. Gas main explosions etc.

I'm not a big fan of tables in play. Though as I mentioned earlier, I am a big fan of Mshag's event mechanic, for a couple reasons. One, it's integrated into the game. It's not a table you have to remember to use, or a separate pool of points you have to activate, it's an essential part of the turn-by-turn gameplay. Secondly, it's specific enough without being too constricting. You don't really need a specific ideas, but you do need categories that are narrow enough that they feel different and encourage different interpretations.

Not sure how to adapt that to MSH, though. I don't have the City set, but I do like the idea of noting things like trunk lines and their power intensity. There's certainly precedent for it in other supplements -- Danger Rooms, Arcade's trap rooms, and so often had similar things noted, but they weren't very consistent and the stats were were buried in descriptive text instead of being on the map. Scouring the power intensity tables in the Judges Book for ideas might be useful; I've always found that list of real world comparisons and environmental factors a good baseline. (Except for weight. The OHOTMU's fixation on tons was always pretty silly.)