From the Slave-Owning Confederacy thread: http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?31935-Deadlands-with-a-slave-owning-Confederacy/page13
One of the big ways which Deadlands stumbles is that the Civil War is such an integral part of the Wild West's characters that it not ending with the defeat of the Confederacy means that the entirety of Western history is changed. Whether you think slavery ending or not is a realistic outcome from doubling the length of the Civil War as well as massively inflating the casualties, it bears thinking about what the consequences of such an act should be.
This is a thread for discussing "realistic" and gameable possible outcomes from the canonical or popular variant timelines (i.e. the Confederacy kept slavery but still "won" the war). It's meant to help make the games more grounded and interesting as alt-timelines.
Some initial thoughts:
1. The Early Rise of Feminism: The death of so many Northern and Southern individuals in the prolonged ethnic conflict has resulted in countless women taking up positions they normally wouldn't do so in business, social, and even political positions. WW1 affected attitudes towards sex in Great Britain and WW2 certainly changed America's attitude to women in working.
2. Racial Demographics Changing: Intermarriage is now going to be much more common because of 1# and that's going to affect things as well. An easy interesting adventure hook for this will be couples getting targeted by the equivalent of a KKK trying to turn back the clock. Even so, the hole left by so many dead is going to effect how things progress.
3. The Southern character War: Among other things, the plantation class may have been actually all but wiped out in the war and now poorer whites are campaigning to try to gain the land of the broken plantation class while the remnants would attempt to keep all of the land for themselves to create a much-smaller aristocracy. Depending on how this conflict resolves, slavery is going to become less important or remain staggeringly important as an issue since the economic future of the South is doomed as an agrarian issue.
4. Western indepedence movements: With both the North and South dramatically weakened by events, that's going to leave the territories as places both are going to settle and mix in which will develop their own national characters. Texas, California, and other territories may well decide to form their own Unions with the United States militaries not able to develop as they did. Obviously, Native Nations will also have a great deal better chance as well to whether the storms of coming historical progression.
5. Industrialization will be very uneven: Ghostrock and other natural resources which lend themselves to rapid industrialization will as likely happen in the West as it is to happen in the East while the South may well remain an impoverished slave state or ex-slave state depending on how matters resolve. If the South can't industrialize, it's more likely the Union would be relating to the South as America to North Korea versus America and the Soviets.
Simply put, by this point, cotton is no longer King and the South will be completely isolated as any emancipation they've done (if any) is almost certainly going to mean nothing to European states.
A lot depends on how the south won the civil war. Having said that, what I would say the likely outcome would be
1) The majority African-Americans would be considered a problem for the Confederacy and the majority would be hostile to any influx of free or slave African-Americans immigrating from the south. However the African-Americans already in the north would be treated with indifference except for a some trouble spots like New York City which has ethnic tension from immigration. Eventually integration will happen. What will be radically different is later on when the migration of African-Americans from the rural South to the urban North doesn't happen.
2) What the government does in the short term is likely not going to be much different than our timeline (OTL). From 1865 to the end of reconstruction in the late 1870s much of the south wasn't represented in Congress and the Republican pretty much got their way on every issue. After 1876, southern representatives and senator acted as a conservative break. With an independent Confederacy that will be gone. Instead you will have a Democratic party that will be even more of a party of reform than OTL, and the champion of the rural small farmer.
It would probably go something like this. The independence of the confederacy is recognized. The Democrat win the first election afterwards and try to govern like they did pre-civil war but advocating a stronger military. They don't handle the economy well, the Republicans come back even more pro military and hell bent on industrializing the country. Within a decade the economy tanks again putting the squeeze on the small farmers and the Democrat will return to power. It will go back and forth until the 1890s when change demographics will force a realignment of political parties. In OTL the realignment resulted in the election of William McKinley and another generation of Republican dominance. In this timelime, ITTL, a number of plausible scenarios could be the result.
3) Absence the conservative south, the progressive may get a jump start and be able to get most of what they want in the 1900s instead of the 1910s. Prohibition went hand and hand with the progressive movement but without the south probably would have as much traction.
4) The south will probably try it hand at expanding throughout the Caribbean and Central America, depending on how well they succeed it may result in the next flashpoint into a renewed USA-CSA war.
5) Socially the south will have a lot of problem. The Civil War was not about states right, rather it was about the money the southern elite was standing to lose as result of changing economics. The southern elites radicalized in order to preserve their economic system and dominance. One primary result is the view that slavery had to keep expanding. This view radicalized the North and the resulted in the Civil War.
However even with a Civil War victory the forces behind the changes in society and the economy were not going to be stopped. Slowed perhaps but the way the economy worked in the south made for a shitty deal for the white middle class and white poor as well as African-Americans. With a southern victory the world will see that the United States has been humbled and any support for the south will evaporate in favor of pressure to abolish slavery and all that goes with it.
Barring some southern political genius, the South is going to be facing some hard choices within two decades of victory.
6) In the run up to the Civil War the North's mantra was Free-Soil AND Free men. The free soil part is important to understand what was going on. Most northerner pre civil war did really care one way or the other about African-Americans. Of course their attitude was mostly racist but everybody was racist to some group. What northerner cared about was the building industrialization and western expansion. There was a energy and a sense of progress to the times. Even with a southern victory I don't see that being blunted.
With the issue of slavery being resolved in favor of southern independence building industry and western expansion will now become the primary focus. In short the United States will to busy building all over the place to worry about breaking up. If southern victory involved major foreign intervention with the United States shackled with major territorial loss and reparations then you would have a vastly different outcome.
Southern Victory in Deadlands is, at least from my research, achieved as a matter of supernatural rather than foreign influence. The Battle of Gettysburg resulted in the North recognizing Southern independence due to the death of Lincoln, the continuation of the war, and the reversals of the war on numerous occassions. The North signs a peace treaty to end the war thanks to the efforts of the Reckoners.
The thing about this "victory" for the South is the Emancipation Proclamation has already been made. That means that large numbers of Blacks have already fled to the North and joined the cause against the South. Furthermore, the economy is already completely and utterly wrecked in the South as well as devastation which is made much-much worse by the fact the war is continuing onward due to supernatural influences.
Ultimately, we can argue about how the South might have won in "reality" but I'm less interested in that than exploring how it was won in the Alt-History setting here. Which is that the South won the conflict by attrition and without foreign intervention beyond ghostly demonic forces. The death of Lincoln and the rise of Andrew Johnson makes this effective "victory" for the South possible if not exactly plausible.
It should be noted the South was already in a staggeringly desperate position in the Real World in 1863 and the conflict drags on past 1865. There's also, notably, no official peace treaty in the setting with Ulysses S. Grant firmly of the mind to destroy the South but unable to begin a full scale war again. My view of the South in 1877, i.e. the War being in a state of ceasefire since 1866 then the past 11 years will be crucial for figuring out how the South has recovered if at all.
In this reality, there's no Reconstruction and the British as well as French have no reason to support the Confederacy since they've already moved their cotton industries' needs elsewhere. Furthermore, their anti-slavery movements have almost certainly gone completely behind the Union. Which, i've mentioned, would make the South a completely isolated creature in terms of economics.
Expansion Westward would almost certainly be a high priority for the Confederacy but not one of PRACTICALITY because the only way they could keep anything resembling a functioning economy would be through acquisition of resource-heavy territories or the end of slavery. However, I still find it hard to believe they'd ever do the latter or if so that it would be anything but defacto slavery.
Quote from: CTPhipps;916181Southern Victory in Deadlands is, at least from my research, achieved as a matter of supernatural rather than foreign influence. The Battle of Gettysburg resulted in the North recognizing Southern independence due to the death of Lincoln, the continuation of the war, and the reversals of the war on numerous occassions. The North signs a peace treaty to end the war thanks to the efforts of the Reckoners.
Then I will the North will double down on industrialization and western expansion. Well western expansion as best as they can given the new state of the world.
Quote from: CTPhipps;916181The thing about this "victory" for the South is the Emancipation Proclamation has already been made. That means that large numbers of Blacks have already fled to the North and joined the cause against the South. Furthermore, the economy is already completely and utterly wrecked in the South as well as devastation which is made much-much worse by the fact the war is continuing onward due to supernatural influences.
Most African-Americans freed by the Emancipation Proclamation didn't flee north. They stayed in areas of the south under Union Control. Given how the war ended in the Deadlands setting, I have to sadly the most likely result that they would be abandoned except for a limited number that are evacuated (depending on whether the local commands are abolitionists or not). ITTL the north is tired of the war and just wants to move on. If the war dragged on like in Deadlands then they would establish refugee communities in the areas under Union Control. Since many of those areas are coastal enclaves it is unlikely they would be able to drif
Quote from: CTPhipps;916181Ultimately, we can argue about how the South might have won in "reality" but I'm less interested in that than exploring how it was won in the Alt-History setting here. Which is that the South won the conflict by attrition and without foreign intervention beyond ghostly demonic forces. The death of Lincoln and the rise of Andrew Johnson makes this effective "victory" for the South possible if not exactly plausible.
The idea that the South can win by attrition is ludicrous given the demographic of both sides. The North letting the south go after the "oh shit what just happened?" moment at ITTL's Gettysburg along with the death of Lincoln is plausible.
Quote from: CTPhipps;916181It should be noted the South was already in a staggeringly desperate position in the Real World in 1863 and the conflict drags on past 1865. There's also, notably, no official peace treaty in the setting with Ulysses S. Grant firmly of the mind to destroy the South but unable to begin a full scale war again. My view of the South in 1877, i.e. the War being in a state of ceasefire since 1866 then the past 11 years will be crucial for figuring out how the South has recovered if at all.
It would not have recovered as the economy of the South is export driven and nearly all the ports are in Union Hands. The situation you describe in deadlands will result in a South that is poor, desperate and able to do much about anything outside of its borders. They will be too busy clinging onto what they have remaini
Quote from: CTPhipps;916181In this reality, there's no Reconstruction and the British as well as French have no reason to support the Confederacy since they've already moved their cotton industries' needs elsewhere. Furthermore, their anti-slavery movements have almost certainly gone completely behind the Union. Which, i've mentioned, would make the South a completely isolated creature in terms of economics.
Free soil is more important than Free Men to the North. You have to keep that in mind. Free soil means living in an economy that is not dependent on slavery.
Abolitionism will be a spent force for a generation. The average person will blame the abolitionist for getting them into the "damn" civil war mess and conveniently forget that it was just as much about free soil to begin with. Abolitionism will make a comeback when the Progressive movement takes hold in the last decades of the 19th century. The Progressive movement is a continuation of the whole sense of progress that came with industrialization and western expansion. The basic gist is that if we can improve our material lives so well why can't we do the same for our souls in terms of how people live their lives.
Quote from: CTPhipps;916181Expansion Westward would almost certainly be a high priority for the Confederacy but not one of PRACTICALITY because the only way they could keep anything resembling a functioning economy would be through acquisition of resource-heavy territories or the end of slavery. However, I still find it hard to believe they'd ever do the latter or if so that it would be anything but defacto slavery.
I misspoke, an independent Confederacy would be more concerned about expansion within what they call the Golden Circle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Circle_(proposed_country)). It encompasses the area suitable for slavery and plantations. But as you describe the setting, it would be a pipe dream as the confederacy would never have recovered to point that they are able to project power outside their border. Now I can see individuals and small groups trying various damn fool stunts to try to realize this dream. But the confederate government would only be able to offer a pat in the back and a "go git boy!".
The problem is that Deadlands is so unrealistic (the change in the timeline being due to a massive supernatural interference, etc) that it's pretty difficult to use real world historical/analytical methods to judge how things would change.
The fact is, an independent south that won the civil war in the real world would NOT have abolished slavery, not for decades at least! It's therefore hard to really judge anything about a ridiculous timeline where from one day to another all southerners are suddenly cool with having Black CSA officers and senators. You're trying to find intellectual rationale for a bowlderized whitewash. It's like trying to make a serious analysis of European society as based on Disney movies.
Quote from: RPGPundit;917142The problem is that Deadlands is so unrealistic (the change in the timeline being due to a massive supernatural interference, etc) that it's pretty difficult to use real world historical/analytical methods to judge how things would change.
The fact is, an independent south that won the civil war in the real world would NOT have abolished slavery, not for decades at least! It's therefore hard to really judge anything about a ridiculous timeline where from one day to another all southerners are suddenly cool with having Black CSA officers and senators. You're trying to find intellectual rationale for a bowlderized whitewash. It's like trying to make a serious analysis of European society as based on Disney movies.
You may have missed the part where I don't support outlawing slavery in the Confederacy. Albeit, I don't have any problem with the idea of the Confederacy's plantation class being destroyed by an extended Civil War.
And in any Confederacy which slavery survives, the country is going to collapse on itself due to the lost population due to the war, the Emancipation Proclamation, slave rebellions, and being an isolated shame of the world.
So in other words, I'm intrigued by a Deadlands which DOESN'T white wash the Confederacy.
I am very much in RPGPundit's boat: the "Wizards Did It" Apocalyse — ooh! Plus SuperCoal! — is just a bridge too far to really stop there and rein it back in coherenty with contemporary real world political dynamics.
My big issue with that Deadlands whitewash was it also asked me to suspend my belief about human nature.
When it's all politically resolved with handwavium of "Selective Possession of Leaders Did It," and human nature tacitly goes along with it without rebellion (instead of fearfully clinging to the old & familiar in the face of disaster), then I am at a loss. By then I am too untethered, both from earthly familiarity and human psychology, to really know what to make of the ramifications.
As for the South with Slavery, it would have to be heavily Manitou supported to survive. Which at that point, it might as well be Armageddon because the spiritual Cold War just went Hot, and humanity' survival is on the line. I am sort of OK with playing that out as long as it slips back into a new Cold War and a failed South. Easiest thing, without making it too supernaturally overt, would be to drag out the war for just about as long as it takes for even Brazil to outlaw slavery (1880s).
Where should we start?
Well, for me, the issue is whether or not we want to actually see whether it's possible to do the situation as canon or whether we want to do the situation as the Confederacy winning.
1. The first situation is history as is except the South remains independent. The South would have to have emancipation forced upon it by the North as part of a treaty and the reason it maintains independence is because the North either doesn't want it to or they intend to somehow continue the practice of slavery and control of blacks in another method (as they did historically).
2. The second is the South effectively wins and slavery is continued with the North saying the hell with it.
Both offer intriguing positions.
I guess let's tackle 1. first...
Retreading almost canon, there was a moment of detente and later armistice as both sides quickly realized spiritual possession was going on. Basically a third combatant entered the sphere and hostilities are muted to face a mutual threat. I could go with that, as the North at one point was losing its stomach for all this meatgrinder war, except —
What happens to the agitating abolitionists and slaves still making their escape to freedom?
Now add in manitou, hucksters (perhaps a little off timeline, but whatever), and the equivalent of true faith miracles. You would have abolitionists and slaves/ex-slaves making quite an overt & covert play to continue undermining the South. For them the war does not end.
So... I don't see the North saying, "meh, let's call it all off," and it mattering. Because even if they tried the South's erosion would continue, now with magic!
How does the North & South maintain armistice & detente with such diametrically opposed activists? "No, demons are real! Look over there, they feed on suffering! That's why we need to return those slaves... to suffering... hmm." Northern activists are assailing the Southern foundation; the Southern foundation feeds the third supernatural fighter in a 3-way contest; the Southern foundation itself wants to run away.
All answers point to someone being 100% wrong and losing almost everything in the struggle, meanwhile all foundations and supports erode around them, in every facet: that'll equal complete human defensiveness. Independence at best would be a slowed implosion, but still remarkably fast all considered. I'd give them 15-20 years at best.
Now those can be quite awesome years to roleplay. But I don't see a workable nation state conclusion beyond "... and the South collapsed and slavery was abolished."
Going with that space of 15-20 years of sinking Titanic, what logistics do you want to work on next? The effect of Ghost Rock in industrializing the North into an equivalent evil?
QuoteNow those can be quite awesome years to roleplay. But I don't see a workable nation state conclusion beyond "... and the South collapsed and slavery was abolished."
Mind you, I think the idea of the South being on the verge of collapsing is a very intriguing potential campaign premise. It just won't last until Hell on Earth like an American-based Soviet Union.
Or, if it did, it would be utterly unrecognizable as the Confederacy.
Well, all settings offer various slices of times and spaces with which to scribble up a fun campaign. Now most campaigns run on a scale of a decade or so in-game (barring crazy long longevity or immortals). So even a decade or two is perfectly fine to stay within Deadlands' milieu.
(I doubt campaigns based on human mortality will regularly play out a century or so. So worrying about WWI, WWII, Bolsheviks, et al., all the way to Hell on Earth is beyond our scope here.)
So... do you want to muddy the contrast and play up Ghost Rock corrupting the North into its own industrial revolution hell? And if so, how does the Civil War Armistice affect industrialization in both nations? Are you seeking to foster an equivalent muddying of the South, as if a romanticized antebellum pre-industrialization with slavery compares equivalently with a nightmarish pre-labor movement industrialized hellish North?
It would incentivize Westward migration, as both would be hells on earth...
Quote from: CTPhipps;917262You may have missed the part where I don't support outlawing slavery in the Confederacy. Albeit, I don't have any problem with the idea of the Confederacy's plantation class being destroyed by an extended Civil War.
And in any Confederacy which slavery survives, the country is going to collapse on itself due to the lost population due to the war, the Emancipation Proclamation, slave rebellions, and being an isolated shame of the world.
So in other words, I'm intrigued by a Deadlands which DOESN'T white wash the Confederacy.
Ok, so let's say that there's a Confederacy, in a world with no magic, that somehow survives the Civil War. Possibly due to French or English support.
They would cling ardently to slavery. There would be secession movements within its own borders, as certain states would see that as the solution to any problem, what with the precedent created by the CSA itself. There's a good chance the CSA would balkanize, though the threat of USA invasion might hold that off. The country would likely become extremely impoverished compared to its northern neighbor very quickly.
In other words, the CSA would likely be a third-world shit-hole.