The old WW2 Flight Sim from Sierra/Dynamix, Aces of the Pacific had an alternate reality expansion, based on an Allied invasion of WW2. You might try tracking down the manual for that, seems like most old games have manuals online

In my opinion not using nukes would have had absolutely no effect on what Japan ultimately did... which was to surrender to the US due to the USSR declaring war on Japan and beginning its offensive into Manchuria (at the US and GB's request). The US was in no military position to invade in August, needing another 2-3 months to ready itself for a land invasion.

Since the Soviets rolled up the entire 700k Kwantung army in under two weeks, it was inevitable they would have continued to sweep over mainland Japan via Hokkaido. Japan's fear of living under Soviet rule lead them to surrender to the US instead, in all likelihood saving hundreds of thousands of Japanese lives from voluntary and enforced suicides, as well as being conquered by the Soviets.

For those who are interested, I suggest watching https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTzLM6lInK0

Whilst interesting, i'm struggling to see how relevant this thread is to the forum.

Are there any RPG supplements that have dealt with this sort of thing, something for Weird World War perhaps?

Someone is trying to min/max their wargame is all.

You may use this premise for a GURPS time patrol (I am not that it is the proper name, so GURPS enthusiast, feel free to correct me on this) or for the incoming TimeWatch, a RPG from Pelgrane using the Gumshoe rule set, where the PC are Time travelling troubleshooters.

Quote from: One Horse Town;900874Whilst interesting, i'm struggling to see how relevant this thread is to the forum.

Are there any RPG supplements that have dealt with this sort of thing, something for Weird World War perhaps?

I'm fishing for some inspiration for a time travel scenario. I wanted to get some idea what the PCs world will look like when their antagonists actions alter the time line so I thought I'd ask for ideas.

Wasnt there a d20 modern RPG with that sort of "What If" premise instead of the usual focus on Germany?

I though agree with some of the other comments in that according to several historical accounts either Japan would have surrendered to the US anyhow due to looming Russia.
Or would have died in shocking numbers as the military takes over and orders everyone to fight to the death or kill themselves.
Or would have been occupied by Russia totally if the US was stalled.

Timing is the big factor.

As someone upthread pointed out. You might end up with a setting like Jin-Roh.

In the Jin-roh timeline, the nuclear bombing and the military occupation happened, but it was done by (Nazi) Germany.

One can argue thus that, with a full scale invasion by the Allies, the following military occupation will have deposed the Emperor, crushed the Japan elite and been more oppressive that the acual Allies occupation during the middle 40s to 50s.

But yeah, a Jin-Roh inspired cloak and dagger espionage game with a late 40s Kurosawa (Druken Angel, Stray Dog) touch might be awesome !

Two forums?
Really?

- Ed C.

Quote from: Koltar;901189Two forums?
Really?

- Ed C.

Actually more than that. Different communities, different outlooks and opinions.

Does anyone have any thoughts on how the modern world would have changed?

Quote from: Nexus;904302Does anyone have any thoughts on how the modern world would have changed?

I don't believe in "would have" conclusions. But I can make up things that seem plausible. The main difference I anticipate is that without ever having had a nuclear weapon detonated in a city, humans know less about the effects of nuclear weapons & radiation on populations, or the knowledge is slower to advance, and/or less detailed. There would still be tests and public knowledge of the weapons, though, before too long. I expect there _might_ be a stronger idea of "using these on cities is unthinkable/inhumane"... but there might be less. It would be possible for the USA to take a slightly higher moral ground on their use if they hadn't ever used them on cities. The post-war Japanese might be slightly less pacifistic and would probably make fewer films about radioactive monsters like Godzilla. The shifts in attitudes could affect the heat and escalation levels of the Cold War in either direction, or not at all. Overall I think it could have essentially zero effect to not have dropped the bomb, or to slide the conversations and Cold War events in either direction a bit.

One possible scenario though could be that the governments all successfully kept nuclear weapons largely secret from populations. So there could be an enticing cover-up about it including mysteriously disappearing whistleblowers etc. PCs could either start out in the know, or in the dark (GM tells them the alt history is that there is no nuclear weapons tech). The absence of public nuclear weapons could change the Cold War quite a bit, either heating it up because in theory there's less reason to escalate, or it could cool it down, because in theory there's less threat. What's actually going on would need to involve an added layer of collusion and conversation between the nuclear powers, who would all need to have reasons to all stay quiet about them.

Quote from: Ravenswing;900755the nuclear strikes weren't so much the finishing blow as a dandy excuse for the Emperor to step in and surrender, without being overthrown by the die-hard rejectionists.  [/COLOR]

Yeah, that fits exactly with Game Theory and seems very plausible to me. The atomic bombing gave the Japanese 'permission' to do what they already wanted to do - to surrender. It also gave the Americans permission to accept the conditional surrender they had previously rejected (Emperor stays). There needed to be a discreet event like that.

Quote from: Nexus;900744Instead of employing atomic weapons, the US proceeds with a ground based invasion of the Japanese islands in World War 2. What do you think would have happened and what changes would occur in the modern world?

Japanese infrastructure would have been far more damaged and the death toll significant. Eventually, with a high death toll on both sides, the US would win. At that point, I think the Emperor would have been executed. The US would prop up Japan as they did, but Japan would likely take longer to recover and US expectations would be less 'gentle'. It is possible that the seven year occupation time would have been much longer as a result.

A few dark speculations:

- Russia could have moved forward with the invasion of Hokkaido, and the US engages them there with forces from the south as well as the forces hidden in the Aleutian Islands. That could have lead directly to an ongoing  military conflict with Russia. If (speculatively) the two atomic weapons were created, the war with Russia could have been 'shut down' with dropping both (probably one on Vladivostok), and ramping up production of more.

- War rekindles in Europe against the Soviets, namely, Russia. East Germany and Soviet controlled Poland don't happen. Ukraine may have broken away.

- Okinawa and Hokkaido (as a result of the invasion) remain under the control of the USA - perhaps indefinitely. Japan would become an economic power house but the population wouldn't recover quite as quickly.

- A scaled down Cold War begins, but the face of communism is more that of China and a more aggressive Mongolia (Mongolia vs Soviet Union vs China). The Soviet Union is much smaller but survives World War 2.5.

- The Cold War would eventually cause the implosion of the Soviet Union, but the new Russia (or possibly "United Nations of Russia") would look significantly different

One thought.

There is also the possibility that any stalling on the US and/or USSR  front would have allowed Japan to advance one of their horror weapons enough to use. Or used more competently.

Example: The Submersible Aircraft Carriers were sent to seed the US with plagues. But failed for various reasons. Imagine had they succeeded and the US was swept with some virulent disease.