I don't think Stuart understands that virtual tabletops are not at all videogamelike. They're more like a chatroom, but with dice, maps, and miniatures that all of the chatroom participants can use.

It isn't that virtual tabletops aren't "as good as" videogames. They accomplish completely different things. That is like saying  "why would I use email when I could just play cards..?"

One is a communication tool (which can be used to facilitate a game), and one is a game (which can be played with others or solitaire).

Apologies if the image comes in a bit big: this is what FantasyGrounds looks like:



Now, match that up with a Skype conference call and you have a way to play a roleplaying game over the internet. Notice the dice at the bottom left. You can actually "grab" them and roll them and they bounce around in the virtual tabletop. The map can be revealed and hidden as the Dm wishes. It's pretty cool.

Abyssal Maw gets it right. MMORPG software is focused on game play like video games while VTT software is focused on communication.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;290809I don't think Stuart understands that virtual tabletops are not at all videogamelike.

You're not going to start stalking me outside of 4e threads now, are you?

It's pretty easy to find out what a Virtual Tabletop is and what they look like.  I think they look an awful lot like the videogames I used to play in the late 80s / early 90s.  I just don't find it appealing at all. I'd rather do something else like play WoW (for the first time) instead of playing my favourite edition of D&D with a VTT.

Quote from: Stuart;290758@Nicephorus: I use 'videogame' to mean any game on the computer, including multi-player MMORPGs.

I was grouping mmmorpg with video game as there's a difference between people pooling to fight a computer controlled opponent and playing a game through the internet with a humans on both sides.  
 
One of the big adopters of various vtt that I've noticed is former gaming groups - people who used to play face to face but not live far apart and missing gaming with their buddies.  Given how important player mix is, it's understandable to prefer a friend a thousand miles away over the jerk who happens to live a mile away.

Quote from: Stuart;290825You're not going to start stalking me outside of 4e threads now, are you?

It's pretty easy to find out what a Virtual Tabletop is and what they look like.  I think they look an awful lot like the videogames I used to play in the late 80s / early 90s.  I just don't find it appealing at all. I'd rather do something else like play WoW (for the first time) instead of playing my favourite edition of D&D with a VTT.

Wow, one guy gets banned and you guys suddenly see this as your big opportunity?

I am mainly explaining what a VTT is since you were comparing it to a video game.Your statement is equivalent to someone saying "I just don't see why anyone would talk on the phone when they could just play nintendo. A phone looks almost like a nintendo! Plus, isn't talking in person better than talking on a phone? And if someone is far away you can just yell..I don't see why anyone would ever use a phone.."

It is, without a doubt, one of the dumbest statements I've ever heard.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;290829Wow, one guy gets banned and you guys suddenly see this as your big opportunity?

If you think we all want you to get banned, why not take the hint and piss off? Either that or just reign in your idiotic impulses and stop thread crapping.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;290829It is, without a doubt, one of the dumbest statements I've ever heard.

That someone would dare to have a different set of preferences than you.  It's preposterous!

Quote from: Stuart;290825I think they look an awful lot like the videogames I used to play in the late 80s / early 90s.  I just don't find it appealing at all. I'd rather do something else like play WoW (for the first time) instead of playing my favourite edition of D&D
with a VTT.

You mean this?



I think Fantasy Grounds is a little better looking than that.

You are missing the point. Fantasy Grounds is a communication tool designed to chat, send dice rolls, display images, and manage counters/markers/ It not a game. It can automate certain applications of rules but that not it's main function.

That you would give up table-top in favor of WoW rather than play it over the internet seems a little silly. I understand that some people dislike talking or chatting with other people over the internet and have nothing wrong with that. But to play WoW instead of a VTT, that being a bit stubborn.

Quote from: Stuart;290835If you think we all want you to get banned, why not take the hint and piss off? Either that or just reign in your idiotic impulses and stop thread crapping.

That someone would dare to have a different set of preferences than you.  It's preposterous!

Actually I was kinda posting about virtual tabletops because I happen to know how they work, and I wanted to post a screenshot of one of the better ones, because I had the impression that people reading something idiotic like "VTT are comparable to videogames" would get the wrong impression. If you go back and read the thread this is exactly what I did. Comparing a communication app to a video game is absolutely moronic. If it makes any difference they have these for non-gaming applications as well (Adobe Connect being a pretty good example).

Adobe Connect does the exact same thing that FantasyGrounds does, but it is primarily used to teach classes and conduct business meetings over the internet. But somehow (don't ask me how!) it never gets compared to a video game. Mostly because people aren't naturally idiots.

In any case, I think you might be off topic.  And if you want me to be banned, just advise the mods I guess.

Ok. I honestly do get that it's a chat client and a voice-over-ip service and a shared whiteboard and all that stuff.  I understand that there is no AI running things and it's all based on the GM running the game.  The graphics are better than what you'd get on your Atari 2600.  Great.

Quote from: estar;290836That you would give up table-top in favor of WoW rather than play it over the internet seems a little silly. I understand that some people dislike talking or chatting with other people over the internet and have nothing wrong with that. But to play WoW instead of a VTT, that being a bit stubborn.

I chat with people online all the time.  I've been on an RPG podcast and will be posting more Skype interview stuff in the near future.  I used to spend a lot of time with MUDs and MUSHes when I was younger too.  Talk and Chat online aren't the issue.

Neither VTT or WoW is tabletop - by which I mean a real-world experience with your friends, in your house, with snacks, face-to-face interaction, real dice you hold in your real hand, real books you flip through, real graph-paper you draw on with a real pencil or pen, and general socializing.  All the 'cheetoist' stuff that Kyle talks about.  My job (and much of my spare time) is spent on the computer.  What I like about tabletop games is that they are 'unplugged'.

If I'm going to spend gaming time on my computer why wouldn't I choose WoW, City of Heroes or some other MMO over VTT? Millions of other people have made a similar choice.  The things I like about tabletop games you don't get from a VTT.  Without those things then a VTT doesn't win out over an MMO for me.  Your preferences are your own - and if you like VTT then that's cool.  It's not for me though.

AM's stalking aside...

I've gamed via voice chat a bit over the past 8 or 9 years using various programs.  Like many others on this thread, most of this online gaming was done with my old group (one of whom worked for a software firm so we had access to a fantastic videoconferencing tool).  It most definitely did not replace the experience of face-to-face gaming even if we did roll our own dice, but it was miles better than not getting to game together at all.

I did run a few games with total strangers using the old WebRPG or OpenRPG program when I was in college.  Again, not a replacement for the real deal, but it was a great game and I still correspond occasionally with a few of my players from those days.

Also, being a die-hard hex-and-chit wargamer, I can match wits (well, with my skill level I rarely match...) with hundreds of folks worldwide or do a one-turn-a-day pickup game with my regular ftf wargame opponent during the week via Cyberboard.

So, yeah, while it will never be as good as the real thing, programs that facilitate online gaming have been great for me.  But I can totally understand Stuart's position that it's not for him.

Quote from: Stuart;290843Neither VTT or WoW is tabletop.

I think everyone here gets that.  You phrased things as if you couldn't believe anyone would choose vtt over tabletop.  Most responses were answering that.  I don't think anyone here thinks face to face gaming will disappear as there are aspects that no computer based system can emlulate.  However, many in the thread think that VTT will offer a viable alternative or addition for many, even if you're not one of them.
 
Actually, I think one of the values of VTT and things like it will be smoother face to face games.  Rather than drawing things out, you can reveal the map as it's explored and have it stored between sessions.  Keeping track of what was killed and what was found would be nice.  Many GMs already use a laptop to show pictures.  PDFs of rules make for quick searching of rules in session.    Some people won't like this intrusion, some will.

Read Doc Rotwangs recent thread about the Gamer Who Wasn't.

Gaming requires people, facilities (a place to sit and actually conduct the game), and coordinated time. With any game that doesn't have a very large community, this becomes a bit complicated. The more people you have, the more coordinated you have to be..everyone has to link up, and make the same time appointments, and if anyone drops out, it can adversely affect the group. Virtual tabletops can ease those requirements, and can do some interesting things like allow geographically dislocated people to play together. I've been in games with Settembrini, Deaduematsu and James Skach,-- all at the same table--  despite the fact that they were hundreds (and sometimes thousands) of miles away.

The only reliable alternative is to simply live amongst a lot of people who are interested in gaming, or have access to a number of people interested in the same game as you are. At that point, the situation reverses. Instead of the more people, the more complicated-- it becomes 'the more people, the easier', because now you have a greater chance of having your free time match up with one or more of the people in the larger pool. This is why more gaming happens in college and in themilitary than in the general population.

The reason a person might choose to use a tool to facilitate/participate in a roleplaying game over the internet rather than play an online game like WoW is simply personal preference, as it is with most things.  Why do people roleplay when they could just arm wrestle? Personal preference. I don't know, figure it out.

Quote from: Stuart;290843All the 'cheetoist' stuff that Kyle talks about.  My job (and much of my spare time) is spent on the computer.  What I like about tabletop games is that they are 'unplugged'.

That understandable and a reasonable choice.

Quote from: Stuart;290843If I'm going to spend gaming time on my computer why wouldn't I choose WoW, City of Heroes or some other MMO over VTT? Millions of other people have made a similar choice.  The things I like about tabletop games you don't get from a VTT.  Without those things then a VTT doesn't win out over an MMO for me.  Your preferences are your own - and if you like VTT then that's cool.  It's not for me though.

So you are saying that you play table-top for the 'cheetoist' stuff. As for the game you couldn't care less about (although my guess you do care about somethings like genre). If you just wanted to play a game then WoW and other RPG videogames are better choices than a tabletop ruleset.

Nothing wrong with that either. I had many players that wouldn't be at a table-top game it wasn't for the 'cheetoist' stuff. As for me, I like being with my friends but I am there to play the game as well. So for somebody like me a VTT is an adequate substitute.

My day job is that I am the head programmer of a company making metal cutting software. Sometimes I do get sick of the computer as well. However with VTT software during the game feels more like I using a fancy phone than mucking around with a videogame or doing some type of work like creating a document.

However if I am GMing then there is work involving the computer during prep. Primarily scanning stuff. But during the actual game again it is more like a fancy phone.

Quote from: Nicephorus;290852Actually, I think one of the values of VTT and things like it will be smoother face to face games.  Rather than drawing things out, you can reveal the map as it's explored and have it stored between sessions.  Keeping track of what was killed and what was found would be nice.  Many GMs already use a laptop to show pictures.  PDFs of rules make for quick searching of rules in session.    Some people won't like this intrusion, some will.

I read about people use VTT software as an aide during play. Project the map down onto the table via a projector. Some tech savvy groups has everybody networked together and instead of pen and paper do the record keeping with the VTT. Here it is used as an aide not a substitute.

Quote from: estar;290854So you are saying that you play table-top for the 'cheetoist' stuff. As for the game you couldn't care less about (although my guess you do care about somethings like genre). If you just wanted to play a game then WoW and other RPG videogames are better choices than a tabletop ruleset.

I think it's a major factor in the appeal of tabletop games for me.  Not the only thing I like about them though, otherwise it wouldn't matter what game I play - and I definitely have preferences.

Since I've known about virtual tables and MMOs for a long time and don't play with either, and I think about how I choose to spend my free time I'd say my gaming related preferences usually run something like this:

• TT RPG I Like
• Boardgame / Wargame
• TT RPG I don't Like
• Genre Movies / Books
• Gamecube
• MMO
• VT RPG I Like
• CRPG
• VT RPG I don't Like